Agressive Pit vs Defensive Pit

[Conti]

Ok so I've been really getting back into pit... he was my original main but I was terrible lol... now he's my actual secondary.... but anyways...
I've been looking at the matchup discussions, guides and ect... and watching top pits... and well, I see a lot of ledge campy pits, and then I see pits like koolaid's pit...
And its mind boggling cuz all these other pits rely on pit's defensive ledge game and koolaid uses it but relys more on a an agressive playstlye... using less arrows, and just great reading and spacing and ect... now that is my specific playstyle, I hate camping it wud bore myself...

Now anyways, to get to my point what are your thoughts on playing Pit with a defensive ledge game, or a more aggresive pit... is it more matchup dependent? Maybe opponent dependant? Thoughts? Discuss...

 

[link2702]

part of it is matchup dependant(approaching snake is suicide for instance, and likewise, if you were to attempt to camp back at failco, you'd be screwed) and part of it is somewhat oppenent dependant.

personally from my experiance though, camping is pits best strat for most situations, when you're playing in a tournament match, the oppenent isn't gonna hold back, and they're gonna fight as annoying and gay as possible, a falco is gonna try to camp his *** off on you, so is a snake, a MK is gonna be whoring out the nado and dsmashes(but all meta***s do that anyway) and pretty much use whatever wroks best, no matter how annoying it may be, or how "cheap" it may seem, for pit or least for me it has been, camping and playing really defensive againts many character and forcing em to approach me and then punish em for it has usually given better results....cept against falco, lol...., no one can outcamp falco



one thing i will tell you, don't bother with arrow looping trix, they're useless, they DON'T WORK, trust me on this one, its from experiance, i used to use em alot, but i realised just how open they left me for attack, and hwo predictable they forced me to be, annnnd in any situation where a looped arrow *might* be useful, a NORMAL arrow IS useful, now about the only time i loop an arrow is after i get a kill, to pretty much taunt my oppenent, thats about it.

but....try to find a styel that works for you is all i can say, if you wanna be agressive, go for it.

 

[Kitamerby]

Aggressive Pits lose.

Campy Pits win.

Kool-Aid is actually a super camper. He just tricks you into believing he's not camping.

 

[Conti]

If campy pit wins then how does koolaid play with little to no camping.... (and lol @ post above this... he mindgames every1 from being aggro that he's actualy super campy?)

 

[Katana_koden]

Is people really praising koolaid for approaching? Or just staying close for that manner? I never really saw a difference in our pits... A defensive pit may overall do better but pits range is mid so it shares both. We should get used to fighting up close and learn what you really get away with. Arrow spam beginners are used to defensive strategies, Therefore performs better defensively.

I hate planking because I know how punishable it is. Just because we can WoI snap the edge doesn't mean its technically safe. There's about 9 or 10 frames we can get hit. But it works best in certain situations.

Arrow may rack up alot of damage but out aerials = 2 to 4x our arrows. jab combo is about 2 to 3x our arrows.


I like playing aggressive, but it doesn't mean i'm reckless. The way pit hits the opponent and his range helps switch between aggressive and defensive rather easy.

Arrow loops fail because we use it wrong since the beginning. (your opinion "not using it period" doesn't matter to me)

 

[Conti]

I'm not praising him for approaching I just barley see other pits approach meanwhile koolad just spaces very well and doesn't get punished as much for it... and swicthing from aggresives to defensive. Is how I play.... more aggresives but I use a defensive tactic to start up an aggressive approach n stuff.... arrow loops r kind of fail unless u can be really unpredictable with it

 

[IrisKong]

I play aggressive when I have the lead...Very aggressive. At the start of the match though, I guess it depends on the character in question if I camp alot or not. Although I dont camp a ton anyways, I know its a good idea every once in a while. the key is to mix it up.

 

[Kitamerby]

If campy pit wins then how does koolaid play with little to no camping.... (and lol @ post above this... he mindgames every1 from being aggro that he's actualy super campy?)

Example: Ally.

He's really a ridiculously good camper that unless you look closely makes you think that he's an aggressive, seemingly random Snake.

He just camps really closely.

 

[Conti]

Ahh yea I saw those... he like spaces outside of ftilt range like... a quarter of fd... hmmm :/

 

[dualseeker]

I usually play a mix up of aggressive and defensive type of play. And, in my opinion, using Arrows at close range is a GOOD idea, not a bad one.

I think that, at the beginning, you should really focus on what character you are playing against and adjust accordingly, you also have to look at the play style of your opponent. So, a little word of advice, don't think that people are going to play EXACTLY like the character is described to play in matchup threads. All players have a different type of playstyle and that should be taken into account as well.

And Arrow Looping is not useless, it's just overused. The basic principle is, is that if you use Arrow Looping a lot, you ARE going to leave yourself open. But if you use it sparingly, and wait for the right moments, it can become a very effective tool. It's all in the way you use it. And if your Arrow Loops almost ALWAYS miss (no offense) you should not use it in matches. You should practice until you FLUENTLY know how to make Arrow Loops hit their target.

Back to the main point, I usually use a mix of aggressive and defensive styles. When I'm going for aggressive, I use a lot of Arrows to keep my combo going, and I even use Arrows to start combos. When I'm playing defensive, I use Arrows to keep my opponent at bay, and maybe force them into approaching. I keep using Arrows until I see I can interrupt their flow. When I know I am in control, I go back to being offensive. That's my basic playstyle.

 

[Allbrex]

Back to the main point, I usually use a mix of aggressive and defensive styles. When I'm going for aggressive, I use a lot of Arrows to keep my combo going, and I even use Arrows to start combos. When I'm playing defensive, I use Arrows to keep my opponent at bay, and maybe force them into approaching. I keep using Arrows until I see I can interrupt their flow. When I know I am in control, I go back to being offensive. That's my basic playstyle.

I think Dualseeker has the right idea. You look at guys like KoolAid and Masashi and they play a very balanced game. As a matter of fact, I've yet to see a match where either of them really just go out and camp. I think camping with Pit is a crutch anyway and puts a ceiling cap on your ability. With his arrows he has some very solid setups and his grabs do solid damage so it's worth being balanced.

 

[humble]

I think Dualseeker has the right idea. You look at guys like KoolAid and Masashi and they play a very balanced game. As a matter of fact, I've yet to see a match where either of them really just go out and camp. I think camping with Pit is a crutch anyway and puts a ceiling cap on your ability. With his arrows he has some very solid setups and his grabs do solid damage so it's worth being balanced.

...Have you ever watched Masashi play? He camps like a fanboy on release day.

And it doesn't put a ceiling cap on your ability, insofar as that you are utilizing the best aspect of your character (arrows) effectively and well. Arrows don't work as setups, don't use them at anything but longrange or you will be regretting it.

I would say that Pits close up game is in need of exploring though.

 

[Allbrex]

...Have you ever watched Masashi play? He camps like a fanboy on release day.

And it doesn't put a ceiling cap on your ability, insofar as that you are utilizing the best aspect of your character (arrows) effectively and well. Arrows don't work as setups, don't use them at anything but longrange or you will be regretting it.

I would say that Pits close up game is in need of exploring though.

I've watched Masashi play lol and that's why I say that. Maybe I haven't run across his really campy games, I don't know if he camped a lot more previous to mid 09' on. What I'm saying about putting a ceiling on yourself by excessive camping though is more on the lines of you're last sentence, where some people think only to camp with him and then neglect exploring his mid-close range game which is solid. The arrows can work as a setup, long-mid range is effective, I'm not saying go pull your bow out when you're a foot from the guy, it's a situational move.

 

[stealthgun]

IMO it depends on the match-up, the person you're playing, and also what playstyle they're using atm as they can switch it up mid-fight.

 

[dualseeker]

...Have you ever watched Masashi play? He camps like a fanboy on release day.

And it doesn't put a ceiling cap on your ability, insofar as that you are utilizing the best aspect of your character (arrows) effectively and well. Arrows don't work as setups, don't use them at anything but longrange or you will be regretting it.

I would say that Pits close up game is in need of exploring though.

I agree with Allbrex.

Camping does in fact cap your abilities due to the fact that you have just eliminated mid and close range combat. Camping is part of utilizing Pit's arrows to the maximum extent, but it is not the ONLY thing you can do to utilize his arrows. The most useful way, in my opinion, is when you use the Arrows to keep your opponent in the air for more combos. It is really helpful when you want to keep an opponent from getting back on stage, and forces them to use different strategies to get back on stage.

And also, I'm not saying use Arrows at super close range. But if you've ever tried it, there are some combos possible by using arrows at mid-range. At a certain percentage, you can use an Arrow to make your opponent flinch, and then use Dtilt to launch them into the air. Although, the more safer way is to use jab-jab-jab infinite to Dtilt, which does cause more damage. What I'm saying is that there are more ways to use Arrows than you think; you just have to explore the possibilities a little. I think that Pit's are associating Arrows with camping a bit TOO much.

 

[Dmo]

I go with defense to see what type of person I'm playing and then decide if I should go with aggressive or stay defensive.

 

[Apollo$]

I go defensive the whole time but once I find a opening then I can play offensive in small doses.

 

[Ryos4]

I always thought of myself as more of the over aggressive players. Pretty much no matter whats going on like to stay close to my opponent. But those who brought up the whole defensive/campy player appearing as an offensive player made me think. I tend to keep Pit just out of range of my opponent and proceed to poking with dtilt or ftilt. I guess its sort of like camping in close range.

While i do get offensive with an arrow approach or nair on a flat stage, i usually just end up forcing them to make either an offensive move or defensive move which i then make an assault. However, once i have somehow put them off balance or they are in the air, is when the super aggression takes place.

So when i think of my style in that terms, it seems a little more campy then initially thought.

 

[PK-ow!]

Example: Ally.

He's really a ridiculously good camper that unless you look closely makes you think that he's an aggressive, seemingly random Snake.

He just camps really closely.

He mains the trap character. He camps, but he uses the tools to make you walk into his defensive game the way he wants. As though he trapped you.

Getting off-point, though. Mainly, I think it means what works for Snake doesn't transfer to anyone else. EDIT: Maybe Toon Link.



In my time as Pit, coming up on a mere three months now, I've found him to be a lot like Mario. He has an ebb and flow, a rhythm, of pushing the opponent, and then moving back and luring them in. But where Mario can get fully rolling and true combo with juggles, or a spike, Pit just has the advantages of a sword. He can't push as far to aggression as a Mario at full throttle can, but he is able to keep himself covered in more situations thanks to the sword (mostly DAir and ftilt).

I should say I don't think of it as 'highs and lows' of attacks; it's an oscillation to two ends: offensive and defensive. You can land hits in both modes.

This is the focus of my contribution here, though: You want to restrain yourself even when you have the last hit. You call off your aggro not on the opponent's terms / because of what is happening "for you" (hit or block), but on your terms. You stop pressing based on positioning, conservativeness, and just the fact the opponent is on backstep. You use aggro to create room for yourself to breathe on defensive, and in defending, you make your opponent show you his thinking so you can pierce with aggression.
You don't want to fight until one stops working You don't want to press one mode up until it stops working; you want to switch when you're still in your/Pit's comfort zone. You want to push against your opponent like water. It is (I argue) very natural for Pit to shift like this, repeatedly, quickly, countless times in a match (perhaps even indistinguishably to anyone but you), but it will be harder than natural for the opponent to change what he must to counter.

Use each mode to a short length or long lull, you obviously want to mask the wavelength of this oscillation. I think of it like 'holding the middle ground', not advancing too far into the enemy's territory, never giving up all of your own. You try to win all these little battles, building damage, and then the K.O. reveals itself, or comes about by hitting the opponent enough times with FAir consecutively.



I want to argue for this as really referring to something, as I think it has success over and above playing at an opportunistic range. Pit's hitboxes want you to be moving. They want the opponent to be walking into a tipped ftilt, or they need the opponent to be right inside of his NAir. They want that frame advantage for Fsmash or they need an offstage target for his other lacking power moves. These demand a dynamic fighter. Pit is always wanting to move the fight. He can't completely control where it moves, but he adapts with his reliable moveset, if you know to be offensive or defensive.

 

[dualseeker]

The above post is extraordinary. I agree that you absolutely MUST know how to change from Defensive and Offensive strategies quickly and effectively. Like PK said, it's natural for Pit to constantly change styles. I've always knew that Pit is VERY versatile and can follow, and lead, the flow of the battle. Although, I've never viewed him to be like Mario, which is a pretty interesting subject. Basically, I agree with many things this post says.

In my opinion, you MUST learn both Offensive and Defensive styles to fully unlock Pit's potential. Learning this will allow you to flow like water in a match, always adapting to the flow and taking the lead if the opportunity is available. Learn both and you'll have an easier time with the flow.

 

[AllyKnight]

didnt know I c amped, thank you for letting me know o.O

 

[Popertop]

i play agressive until high percent, then I camp the ledge with Uair

then when they make a mistake glide attack whooo

 

[Aqua S.G.]

Aggressive Pits lose.

Campy Pits win.

Kool-Aid is actually a super camper. He just tricks you into believing he's not camping.

so you saying an aggresive pit will lose? why is that?

 

[Admiral Pit]

Defense is better, but that doesn't mean you can't be offensive.

I personally prefer a variety... yet if in danger or dealing with a certain matchup, defense is where I'll go, sometimes to trick the opponent with offense whenever they are vulnerable or leave themselves open. It just varies. If it's something like a MK, I'll be defensive, don't matter, unless it was a stupid MK that I could easily get through. Same applies to many of the harder matchups.
Sometimes, waiting for em to do the wrong this is what I like, while applying a bit of pressure. Once right close to em and landing a hit, then I sometimes just go after em quickly (depending on the character and the style), or just retreat back, especially when I could just camp and wait for em to come again. It just varies on many things, and that includes the stage that the match is on.

 

[stealthgun]

so you saying an aggresive pit will lose? why is that?

I agree with aqua and have some evidence to contradict Kitamerby's claim. It was posted in the video critique thread by Ayoub who is one of the better aggressive Pit's that I've seen. Sure he got a bit reckless in a couple cases but even so he owned this guy and think of the potential for this style when used correctly and without the recklessness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcYmEWXv2pY

 

[dualseeker]

lol at 2:00 .

You can tell he knew the matchup well. He mostly did reverse grabs to punish Falco's Dairs (which Falco's use constantly). And he stayed near the ledges so that he could avoid Falco's lasers and bait him toward the ledge. When he was at the ledge, he punishes acordingly. And he headed for Falco when he knew he had an opening. Ayoub has an impressive mindgame, though. And he was a bit reckless. But only for a few moments.

But he did change his style acording to the Falco's play. I think since the Falco didn't really USE his lasers all that much, Ayoub saw it as an opportunity to be offensive. And when the Falco did start using his lasers, Ayoub went to defensive and hung around the ledge to bait him there and punish most of what he did. Another reason on why you should learn both Offense and Defense.

And I agree with Admiral Pit that it does vary depending on who you play against.

 

[KiraFlax]

i feel that it depends on the match up a lot. but for me in most cases switching it up from campy to agressive is the way to go, my ratio of agreesive to defensive is 70:30 with being agresive most of the time. it seems to work best when you know the match up inside and out.

 

[Allbrex]

didnt know I c amped, thank you for letting me know o.O

Ally over here name searching like a pro