After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

[SamuraiPanda]

Overswarm says a lot of smart things

 

[Luigi#1]

God this is still going?

 

[Overswarm]

Are you still in MI?

 

[Renji64]

If brawl was "chess" is smash 4 connect 4 or something?

 

[Bladeviper]

If brawl was "chess" is smash 4 connect 4 or something?

was this post necessary like at all? ive seen you don't like they way smash 4 is going and thats fine and all but you post nothing of relevance to the discussion and just bash on the game.

 

[josh bones]

was this post necessary like at all? ive seen you don't like they way smash 4 is going and thats fine and all but you post nothing of relevance to the discussion and just bash on the game.

Not being living and caring = bashing
Seems legit

 

[Luigi#1]

was this post necessary like at all? ive seen you don't like they way smash 4 is going and thats fine and all but you post nothing of relevance to the discussion and just bash on the game.

I have him on ignore but I'm gonna take a guess and say that's Renji64.

EDIT: I checked and holy crap I was right.

 

[Bladeviper]

Not being living and caring = bashing
Seems legit

so what your saying that post was valuable to the discussion, please tell me more

 

[josh bones]

so what your saying that post was valuable to the discussion, please tell me more

More valuable then you trying to kill him

 

[BindingBlade]

If brawl was "chess" is smash 4 connect 4 or something?

I hope not, Connect 4 is one of the most basic and boring games I've ever played.

 

[Bladeviper]

More valuable then you trying to kill him

wut, im so confused

 

[Luigi#1]

If Brawl was Connect 4 and Melee was chess I'd say 4 was Checkers.
Also, Renji64 is literally the only one that I have aggressively sighed at 3 times. That includes Miiverse users.

 

[josh bones]

wut, im so confused

You say renji making a conparison is not contributing to the dscussion. I say that you lashing out on him isn't valuable and renji had some merit.

 

[Bladeviper]

You say renji making a conparison is not contributing to the dscussion. I say that you lashing out on him isn't valuable and renji had some merit.

i fail to see how calling a game connect 4 has any merit in this discussion but w/e

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You say renji making a conparison is not contributing to the dscussion. I say that you lashing out on him isn't valuable and renji had some merit.

Why don't we have a thread vote, we can see all those who think Renji posts constructively and adds to the discussion and all those who would rather he just disappear.

Predictions?

 

[Luigi#1]

Why don't we have a thread vote, we can see all those who think Renji posts constructively and adds to the discussion and all those who would rather he just disappear.

Predictions?

He's on my ignore list.
That's my prediction.

 

[TimeSmash]

He's on my ignore list.
That's my prediction.

The shade here is all too real haha

Also, where is the debate on whether people think this will be a good game or not? I'm seeing nothing but like two line posts haha.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I'd rather we just talked about the game.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Are you still in MI?

Just moved to Phoenix to temporarily work in a hospital out here. Due to certain circumstances I may be moving back to Michigan anywhere from in the next few weeks to a year, possibly even 3. You still in Ohio?

 

[Hong]

I'd rather we just talked about the game.

Everyone would be advised to pursue this notion.

It's outright disrespectful to come in here and **** on @ SamuraiPanda 's thread. It's not like spam, unnecessary flaming, and needless targeting of character are anything new to this thread (or SmashBoards in general), but all the same this thread has also has plenty of engaging, insightful and constructive discussion. If you can't carry yourself responsibly and you don't like the discussion, no one is forcing you to post in this thread.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Overswarm says a lot of smart things

Good to know you haven't changed since our old days playing Mafia in the backroom. haha.

 

[Overswarm]

Just moved to Phoenix to temporarily work in a hospital out here. Due to certain circumstances I may be moving back to Michigan anywhere from in the next few weeks to a year, possibly even 3. You still in Ohio?

Northern KY, but same deal. Basically cincy. Got married. Got a house. Got a puppy.

Lemme know when you come back to MI

Good to know you haven't changed since our old days playing Mafia in the backroom. haha.

If by that you mean still a genius then yes, haven't changed a bit.

 

[Overswarm]

Shaya make me head of the Smash 4 back room so I can get things done and the back room can be a force for logical record keeping to be used as a resource for the good of all


edit:

and I know you guys are probably talking about making the back room for smash 4 public just like we discussed making it public when Brawl was released but don't do it. It's always a bad idea and forces people to make their on separate back rooms on facebook that cause fragmentation.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Northern KY, but same deal. Basically cincy. Got married. Got a house. Got a puppy.

Lemme know when you come back to MI.

I knew something felt off when I said Ohio. Looks like we've both moved on in life a bit. I'll be coming back to the scene for Smash 4, so I'll hit you up when I make it back.

Shaya make me head of the Smash 4 back room so I can get things done and the back room can be a force for logical record keeping to be used as a resource for the good of all

Ah Shaya, I hope he's doing well. In case you need any help in the backroom, I'm still the same person and you remember how things went down back in the day. Doesn't look like either of us has changed too much from the golden years though.

Yes, I refer to them as the golden years sometimes. I'm old.

 

[Overswarm]

I knew something felt off when I said Ohio. Looks like we've both moved on in life a bit. I'll be coming back to the scene for Smash 4, so I'll hit you up when I make it back.



Ah Shaya, I hope he's doing well. In case you need any help in the backroom, I'm still the same person and you remember how things went down back in the day. Doesn't look like either of us has changed too much from the golden years though.

Yes, I refer to them as the golden years sometimes. I'm old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ic41SKBVy4

 

[infomon]

and I know you guys are probably talking about making the back room for smash 4 public just like we discussed making it public when Brawl was released but don't do it. It's always a bad idea and forces people to make their on separate back rooms on facebook that cause fragmentation.

Please explain yourself. Why is this a bad idea.

I don't necessarily disagree, but if there is to be a private "back room" then its motivation and methods should be as transparent as possible to give it credibility. Lack of credibility is also a danger to the community.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why don't we have a thread vote, we can see all those who think Renji posts constructively and adds to the discussion and all those who would rather he just disappear.

Predictions?

And if you paired them up with yours they would be on the same level of construction. Difference is his are interesting.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ic41SKBVy4

You're not gonna let me live that down are you.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Difference is his are interesting.

Yeah, OK.

Landing lag is good. Risk:reward. All that jazz.

 

[Tristan_win]

and I know you guys are probably talking about making the back room for smash 4 public just like we discussed making it public when Brawl was released but don't do it. It's always a bad idea and forces people to make their on separate back rooms on facebook that cause fragmentation.

Why would someone ever want the backroom to be public viewable? Becoming transparent would offers so little to the community that a simple sticky thread listing what's being currently discussed would do just as well.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Why would someone ever want the backroom to be public viewable? Becoming transparent would offers so little to the community that a simple sticky thread listing what's being currently discussed would do just as well.

It wouldn't hurt for it be viewable, but you need to have permission to post. Then again people would just be a bunch passive-aggressive ass whiners if they couldn't say anything.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Please explain yourself. Why is this a bad idea.

I don't necessarily disagree, but if there is to be a private "back room" then its motivation and methods should be as transparent as possible to give it credibility. Lack of credibility is also a danger to the community.

Oh man, this conversation again. I remember us having a debate on this back in the day. Since the thread is already derailed, might as well get into this.

I used to support the idea of transparency in the backroom for awhile. I eventually changed my stance on this because of my experience as a moderator during the heyday of Brawl's release when Smashboards was exploding at the seams with activity.

How would you go about making it public? The obvious way is to allow users to view the threads but not post in them unless they are members. Do you know how many threads will pop up all over the forums when a single member says something even slightly factually inaccurate? It won't matter if they're corrected in the very next post, people will instantly lose faith and credibility because a member didn't know the frame data of Zelda's up B.

On top of that, the back room has 3 types of members: 1) Intelligent, well spoken members who have knowledge about the game and the skill to put forward this knowledge in an approachable manner. 2) Top players. 3) Important people in the community who make a difference (visible personalities, established TOs, moderators, etc). It might be oversimplifying but you get the point.

Have you ever seen M2K post? He says idiotic things all the time. Yet he was in the backroom because nobody could top M2K's experience and knowledge, and he occasionally had a salient point here and there. Do you think top players write giant essays on single mechanics? Not many. But they are still respected figures in the scene and usually for a reason.

Telling the public what is being discussing is totally fine. Showing the public how we discuss isn't a good idea.

 

[infomon]

Why would someone ever want the backroom to be public viewable? Becoming transparent would offers so little to the community that a simple sticky thread listing what's being currently discussed would do just as well.

When Brawl was launched, the back room was a disaster. Many of the members did not actually understand the game, and espoused strong views of it ("lol x should be banned") without any justification outside of the BR. Its credibility plummeted, and TOs fled to their own rulesets all over the place.

Proper application of transparency could have helped avoid these issues. Not necessarily full-public-viewable, but that's an option that should be on the table.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya make me head of the Smash 4 back room so I can get things done and the back room can be a force for logical record keeping to be used as a resource for the good of all

edit:

and I know you guys are probably talking about making the back room for smash 4 public just like we discussed making it public when Brawl was released but don't do it. It's always a bad idea and forces people to make their on separate back rooms on facebook that cause fragmentation.

I may just make another topic for this, or perhaps just say "let's not discuss this here" (having a thread for it in this section would be ugly too) soon enough but...

I want a "public br", and I wouldn't mind you in it, forever .
Things like projects can be private still (tier list votings). We're looking for a system of project drafting (like the Match Up Charts; which would mean certain things may have non-BRers participating) rather than a general "rule making/leadership group".

 

[SamuraiPanda]

When Brawl was launched, the back room was a disaster. Many of the members did not actually understand the game, and espoused strong views of it ("lol x should be banned") without any justification outside of the BR. Its credibility plummeted, and TOs fled to their own rulesets all over the place.

Proper application of transparency could have helped avoid these issues. Not necessarily full-public-viewable, but that's an option that should be on the table.

I actually disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. Some members said things like "lol x stage should be banned" but for the most part there was a VERY vigorous and healthy debate in the BR about every little nuance about the game.

This is (IMO) why TOs fled to their own rulesets:

1) It took too long to decide what to make legal. We had to create from the ground up a cohesive argument for what stages should be banned outright and which were borderline. We couldn't come to an agreement on what the initial ruleset should be because we hadn't properly defined what we were looking for out of competitive Smash Bros.

2) Entire coastlines would outright ban stages that the BR was still actively debating like Norfair or Luigi's Mansion. Some players thought we were idiotic for even debating this at all, and others put forward extremely eloquent and well thought out posts that couldn't be refuted. Many of the borderline stages were legal for a long time in certain areas.

Because of the influence of Overswarm and eventually myself, the Midwest became a bastion for the testing of these borderline stages. We were the last region anywhere to ban anything and the first region to try outlandish things like 2 stock tournaments or custom stages legal in an entire Circuit (stages created by OS of course).

I do think Smash 4 needs a wholly different approach to how rules should be made. I think differences need to be reconciled and we shouldn't be afraid to pair down the game as long as we aren't too excessive. Competitive Smash, IMO, needs a cohesive front because we're going to be a BIG spectator esport soon (again IMO) so not having a singular ruleset, or at least similar rulesets, throughout the country will lead to a lot of confusion and different metagames. We need to define WHAT we are making before we start making it and try to abide by those rules as we set forward.

 

[infomon]

I may just make another topic for this

OK, I'll hold off here, and look forward to a "Initial Smash4 Backroom community discussion thread" that should explain its purpose, initial formation, and method of assembly.

Oh man, this conversation again. I remember us having a debate on this back in the day.

Good times

My concerns are specifically regarding small-time TOs and smash enthusiasts. They need more than just a ruleset -- they need justification for the rules. If they can't justify the rules to their local scene, then they lose credibility in their region, where metagames will have evolved differently.

More than anything I think the backroom had both a PR problem, and also maybe a discipline / structure problem. I think these are systemic and solvable, but I'd appreciate a clear vision for that in advance of smash4's release.

 

[Shaya]

OK, I'll hold off here, and look forward to a "Initial Smash4 Backroom community discussion thread" that should explain its purpose, initial formation, and method of assembly.

Well yeah, I don't see that topic going too well (it would require significant attention which I don't have to give right now, would be a bit preemptive/presumptive to do, blah blah), so if its quick/blunt/succinct in here, I don't mind, if it derails too much I'll just leave it. If I read something new I'd be happy, I've discussed public/private BR notions/goals/etc to many people and try to consider as many things as I can.

Basically I'd hope for a new BR not to be some sort of elitist secretive government-esque body, rather one that focuses on discussions/knowledge over politics
I think one of the greatest successes of the BBR was the MU chart (thanks to @Marc 's genius really), we defined/made a criteria that was able to fit our goals, semi-publicly brought people together to discuss/evaluate things with that criteria in mind and then a release which due to these systems had one of the most positive receptions we've ever had (even with individual result clashes). Things kept within this paradigm seem to have the best results, even if in the case of the MU chart the workload/time frame was extremely massive, so hopefully finding ways to make some of these things seamless would be great.

I'm an edit maniac, I would now say that I have nothing else to add/edit into this post

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I may just make another topic for this, or perhaps just say "let's not discuss this here" (having a thread for it in this section would be ugly too) soon enough but...

I want a "public br", and I wouldn't mind you in it, forever .
Things like projects can be private still (tier list votings). We're looking for a system of project drafting (like the Match Up Charts; which would mean certain things may have non-BRers participating) rather than a general "rule making/leadership group".

I'll wait for that thread as well. I'm not against a public BR as long as its done right. Regardless, I think it'd be a fun discussion. Helping make the rules for Brawl initially are some of my favorite things about the time I spent in the Smash community so even if I'm not part of it in the future, it would be interesting to at least watch.

Good times

My concerns are specifically regarding small-time TOs and smash enthusiasts. They need more than just a ruleset -- they need justification for the rules. If they can't justify the rules to their local scene, then they lose credibility in their region, where metagames will have evolved differently.

More than anything I think the backroom had both a PR problem, and also maybe a discipline / structure problem. I think these are systemic and solvable, but I'd appreciate a clear vision for that in advance of smash4's release.

I think you're right. I tend to disregard the PR problem and small-time TOs were definitely underrepresented in the previous BR. Regardless, I do think that creating the vision for competitive Smash 4 before Smash is released will help the Smash scene tremendously and should absolutely happen.

At the very least it'll help avoid another month-long argument on whether or not items should be banned again.

 

[infomon]

Well, we're one month from the Japanese release. If we want to define criteria / structure before the flood, we're getting close

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Basically I'd hope for a new BR not to be some sort of elitist secretive government-esque body, rather one that focuses on discussions/knowledge over politics

I'd argue that the Brawl BR wasn't dominated by politics at all. They played a role but I personally believe it was relatively minor. I may be wrong though.

I think one of the greatest successes of the BBR was the MU chart (thanks to @Marc 's genius really), we defined/made a criteria that was able to fit our goals, semi-publicly brought people together to discuss/evaluate things with that criteria in mind and then a release which due to these systems had one of the most positive receptions we've ever had (even with individual result clashes). Things kept within this paradigm seem to have the best results, even if in the case of the MU chart the workload/time frame was extremely massive, so hopefully finding ways to make some of these things seamless would be great.

I'll agree the MU chart was a big success. I do think the BR had other successes though. They were usually hidden, but the rules created on every coast in the US, even though they varied tremendously, were influenced in some way by the discussions we were having in the BR. By the "popular" TOs doing their thing, there was a trickle-down to other TOs in the areas. The rules of the popular TOs were pretty directly impacted by the discussions in the BR (not neccesarily the result of those discussions though).

IMO the BR in the future should have certain goals from the get go:
- Creation of a cohesive ruleset and discussion of controversial decisions (i.e. banning metaknight).
- Directing and leading the MU chart creation (WAY too hard with the expanded cast to just do in the BR alone IMO)
- Tire list (they DO exist)
- Perhaps organizing circuits or events

I'm not sure what else the BR should/could/would be able to do.

And I guess I lied about waiting for the other thread >_>