After the SDCC tournament yesterday... I'm having doubts Smash 4 will be a good competitive game.

[pizzapie7]

I'd rather take the word from the development team that spent months working on the game than a "competitive gamer" who only spent a couple days playing the game when it comes to Samus.

Just saying.

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

It's an old build though so I'm certain she'll get fixed, but it doesn't sound good to anyone if the team thinks a bad character is the strongest.

 

[κomıc]

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

It's an old build though so I'm certain she'll get fixed, but it doesn't sound good to anyone if the team thinks a bad character is the strongest.

That's fine and understandable. But the team had more play tests and stats than any top level players hence why I wouldn't really rely on them at this point. Not to shade them.

As you said, it is an old build and we'll find out soon enough come September (looking forward to it!).

I think they're holding an event this week in Japan and I'm sure some top level player will get their hands on it to get the feel and it'll be the final build then.

 

[Bladeviper]

That's fine and understandable. But the team had more play tests and stats than any top level players hence why I wouldn't really rely on them at this point. Not to shade them.

As you said, it is an old build and we'll find out soon enough come September (looking forward to it!).

I think they're holding an event this week in Japan and I'm sure some top level player will get their hands on it to get the feel and it'll be the final build then.

well to be fair it will take longer then septmeber to find out who is good on more than a base level of play imo, since i think if any AT's are in the game it will take a while to find them all

 

[κomıc]

well to be fair it will take longer then septmeber to find out who is good on more than a base level of play imo, since i think if any AT's are in the game it will take a while to find them all

For sure. We'll still get a rough idea since it is the final build.

The Wii U is another story. Have you guys heard that it may release on November 21st? That's going to be an incredible weekend if so (The Pokemon games come out that same day!)

 

[Senario]

That's fine and understandable. But the team had more play tests and stats than any top level players hence why I wouldn't really rely on them at this point. Not to shade them.

As you said, it is an old build and we'll find out soon enough come September (looking forward to it!).

I think they're holding an event this week in Japan and I'm sure some top level player will get their hands on it to get the feel and it'll be the final build then.

The problem is play tests and stats mean nothing sometimes if you want to balance a game competitively.

If I took stats on say League of Legends and took the character who I know due to a lot of data does exceptionally well in mid low levels of play which are the vast majority of the playerbase. I'd ideally want to nerf said character. However, competitive wise the top levels of play actually really don't have a problem with that character since they realize that the character simply has a low skill ceiling that is met much faster. The actual character is pretty bad up at the top.

By the data you could say "Oh we have data to show these characters are too strong" but what you are really doing is balancing from the bottom up rather than the top down based on data that is simply more numerous. And it hurts competitive viability because that character wasn't used at the top level anyway and now will be less used. Balancing from the top levels of play down is THE way to balance competitive play due to the quality of what is "too strong" (And this applies in smash as well).

The biggest problem with saying that data is the absolute and you cannot rely on top levels of play(besides not listening to people who know your game the most) is that the QUALITY of your data is in question when it comes to competitive play. You have a lot of data great, but what use is that data competitive-wise if all the people you collected data on were mid-low level players of the game?

Obviously, there is some point to be said about "they haven't played the game enough" but ignoring them due to lack of data is the wrong choice. If you gave them even more time with the game and took notes you would be able to have some idea what the effects of changes made are. And funny enough, you get quality data in the process.

 

[Venks]

It's not to make the game "more competitive", just to make it less defensive, because people don't like defensive play in general. And it's not really that big of a technical barrier; all you need to do is press a button before landing.

And as far as balancing and Samus goes, just ask Hugs

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

L-cancelling still doesn't make it less defensive compared to less land lag.

Also all the invitational players had very little time to play the game. I've had way more time with Samus than HugS. She's been buffed to hell. He's trying to play Melee Samus instead of Smash 4 Samus.
Dj Nintendo did the same thing with Bowser and doesn't make use of shield breaking or super armor. Oh and don't get me started on how terribly Rapture handled Little Mac. You do NOT approach from the air with that character.

HugS: "It could just be that were not too used to the game right now."

 

[κomıc]

The problem is play tests and stats mean nothing sometimes if you want to balance a game competitively.

If I took stats on say League of Legends and took the character who I know due to a lot of data does exceptionally well in mid low levels of play which are the vast majority of the playerbase. I'd ideally want to nerf said character. However, competitive wise the top levels of play actually really don't have a problem with that character since they realize that the character simply has a low skill ceiling that is met much faster. The actual character is pretty bad up at the top.

By the data you could say "Oh we have data to show these characters are too strong" but what you are really doing is balancing from the bottom up rather than the top down based on data that is simply more numerous. And it hurts competitive viability because that character wasn't used at the top level anyway and now will be less used. Balancing from the top levels of play down is THE way to balance competitive play due to the quality of what is "too strong" (And this applies in smash as well).

The biggest problem with saying that data is the absolute and you cannot rely on top levels of play(besides not listening to people who know your game the most) is that the QUALITY of your data is in question when it comes to competitive play. You have a lot of data great, but what use is that data competitive-wise if all the people you collected data on were mid-low level players of the game?

Obviously, there is some point to be said about "they haven't played the game enough" but ignoring them due to lack of data is the wrong choice. If you gave them even more time with the game and took notes you would be able to have some idea what the effects of changes made are. And funny enough, you get quality data in the process.

I totally get you (I main Soraka and I'm displeased with how they nerfed her to hell and back but she is still my go-to champion for ridiculous lane positions such as Top and Jungling). It'd be nice to see more companies involve top level players in the game development process but I think it is for fear that they don't understand how making a game works. On the brighter side, at least with Smash 4 Sakurai and his team are more open to hearing from the players and I think they had a decent opportunity to do so at E3.

I'm not quite sure about the validity of this but apparently, Bandai Namco hired some people who are high skill players to work on recent fighting titles (Tekken, Soul Calibur) to balance out the games. I'm curious to know if maybe, if this was really the case, if they are involved with Smash 4 in some capacity.

I think it'd be cool if Sakurai had some top level players involved but it'll likely be people in the area locally in Japan. But after his comment shutting down a top level player, that doesn't seem like it'll ever be the case.

Random thoughts.

 

[Cassio]

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

It's an old build though so I'm certain she'll get fixed, but it doesn't sound good to anyone if the team thinks a bad character is the strongest.

While Im all for letting top players getting their hands on the game and providing input over time, most of the invitational players provided pretty poor analysis as people are starting to realize more and more. Its to be expected based on their experience and limited time with the game though.

 

[Senario]

I'm not quite sure about the validity of this but apparently, Bandai Namco hired some people who are high skill players to work on recent fighting titles (Tekken, Soul Calibur) to balance out the games. I'm curious to know if maybe, if this was really the case, if they are involved with Smash 4 in some capacity.

I think it'd be cool if Sakurai had some top level players involved but it'll likely be people in the area locally in Japan. But after his comment shutting down a top level player, that doesn't seem like it'll ever be the case.

Random thoughts.

My only problem is 3D fighting games like Tekken and Soul Calibur are much much different than smash in general. It is hard to even say they are the same Genre of fighting game. Smash stands alone in it's genre generally and it is hard to give a name. Part party game, fighting game, and platformer...what do you call that besides smash? Competitive wise it is a sandbox fighting game where you have so many options. My thoughts, it is nice if Tekken and Soul Calibur pros were helping but I would imagine smash pros would just be better suited to balancing the game. None of my fighting game friends understood smash really well until I explained a few things because smash simply plays differently than any other fighting game they know of.

And yeah...not too big on Sakurai himself being great with the community...Nintendo is doing good but...not much more to say about that lol. To be fair though both Sakurai and said competitive player worded their stuff terribly. Competitive player was rude, Sakurai poisoned the well. If you had to make a game to be credible on helping balance a game why do we allow political scientists whose job it is to analyze politics to exist? They haven't run for office in general.

 

[Animage]

L-cancelling still doesn't make it less defensive compared to less land lag.

Also all the invitational players had very little time to play the game. I've had way more time with Samus than HugS. She's been buffed to hell. He's trying to play Melee Samus instead of Smash 4 Samus.
Dj Nintendo did the same thing with Bowser and doesn't make use of shield breaking or super armor. Oh and don't get me started on how terribly Rapture handled Little Mac. You do NOT approach from the air with that character.

HugS: "It could just be that were not too used to the game right now."

As to how it shapes the metagame, L-cancelling and reduced land lag are exactly the same.
And while I do agree with some of the points you make about how some melee players poorly handle the way the characters were redesigned, we won't know if this game is truly balanced until the game comes out and the meta is explored.

I'm not quite sure about the validity of this but apparently, Bandai Namco hired some people who are high skill players to work on recent fighting titles (Tekken, Soul Calibur) to balance out the games. I'm curious to know if maybe, if this was really the case, if they are involved with Smash 4 in some capacity.

I think it'd be cool if Sakurai had some top level players involved but it'll likely be people in the area locally in Japan. But after his comment shutting down a top level player, that doesn't seem like it'll ever be the case.

Random thoughts.

Sakurai is known to be really stubborn, and to think that his way of doing things is the only right way. I really hope this is not the case but I almost feel like Sakurai still secretly dislikes the competitive scene, and Nintendo is really the only people giving us support, not the person involved with the game itself.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Also all the invitational players had very little time to play the game. I've had way more time with Samus than HugS. She's been buffed to hell. He's trying to play Melee Samus instead of Smash 4 Samus.
Dj Nintendo did the same thing with Bowser and doesn't make use of shield breaking or super armor.

HugS: "It could just be that were not too used to the game right now."

I'm glad someone acknowledges this. It was clear that many Melee players were trying to play their Invitational character like their Melee incarnation. Whilst for some it worked (like PewPew's Mario) it didn't for others (look's at Ken's Marth, way too many aerial approaches in a game without a landing-lag reducing mechanic). This is why I'm not surprised that ZeRo won the Invitational. He has a grasp of Smash 4's limitations and tried his best to play to those limitations. For Bowser at SDCC, I can see that Larry was playing him much better than DJN did in the Invitational (space those Bairs with RAR, yo!).

Also pls based Hugs become the bess Megaman in Smash 4 pls

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I'm glad someone acknowledges this. It was clear that many Melee players were trying to play their Invitational character like their Melee incarnation. Whilst for some it worked (like PewPew's Mario) it didn't for others (look's at Ken's Marth, way too many aerial approaches in a game without a landing-lag reducing mechanic). This is why I'm not surprised that ZeRo won the Invitational. He has a grasp of Smash 4's limitations and tried his best to play to those limitations. For Bowser at SDCC, I can see that Larry was playing him much better than DJN did in the Invitational (space those Bairs with RAR, yo!).

Also pls based Hugs become the bess Megaman in Smash 4 pls

As an example of that, Hugs was trying to missile cancel in a game that doesn't have it. Instead of missile cancelling, what he should be doing is poking with ZAir to get distance, and follow up with a Super Missile on landing. In fact, ZAir seems to be a very good distance poke for every character that has one, as they all seem to auto-cancel.

 

[κomıc]

Well, what we do know is that Sakurai loves his games and care so much about them. I personally love his philosophy on game development and working a game as if it was his last. You know, it's interesting how he cares so much about every little detail and catering to a very broad audience. That was his vision with the Smash Bros games. I agree, that it does seem like he isn't too keen on the competitive scene but I wouldn't blame him considering how tense and stressful the scene comes off as (in my experience, though, but I'm staying).

With Kid Icarus Uprising, that game went through several delays because he wanted it done right. And that game stands as my personal GOTY for 2012. The design choices he made to accommodate the limitations of the 3DS were phenomenal and how he and his team managed to find balance in terms of difficulty was great on top of a control system that was heavily inspired by Kirby and Smash Bros.

In any case, I see things from both sides of the spectrum but if I were in Sakurai's shoes, I would be dubious about letting an "outsider" tell me how to make the game right especially when it is "my project". And when I say outsider, I don't mean it in a bad way. It's just the outsider likely has no knowledge on how to craft a game and truly balance things out. The way that person came off was a bit stand offish and it poorly represented the competitive scene because I know not everyone has that attitude. It's sad that these people are the most vocal and they really have no approach on how to talk to people. It almost sounded like he made Sakurai and the team look incompetent. At least Sakurai and his larger team is working on balancing the game and finding the happy medium. But Sakurai looks at Smash Bros as a love letter to Nintendo fans first and a competitive game dead last, likely. I mean, that's how I look at Smash. A fan-service first and a competitive game second. To each their own.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

It's an old build though so I'm certain she'll get fixed, but it doesn't sound good to anyone if the team thinks a bad character is the strongest.

To be clear, the consensus of most competitive players who spent time with the demo and checked out Samus is that she was about average, not terrible. She is clearly way stronger than she was in Brawl in smash 4. She didn't seem top tier at all, but she did seem legitimately competitive. Sakurai's comments were a bit puzzling I'll admit (though it wasn't clear if he was even talking about the E3 build), but it's not a case of the community thinking he's 100% backward on the balance.

In general the balance of the demo seemed pretty great. Zelda seemed awful and no one could figure out Rosalina, but the other 22 characters all seemed legitimately decent in their own ways with none of them really seeming overpowered. We could see some gaps (Fox, Marth, and Mega Man seem lower end, for example), but compared to the wild and obvious quality differences across the casts of other smash games, it's really tame. Then on the stream, we had Bill showing off... Rosalina and Zelda! He didn't really make a believer out of me for Zelda, but that Rosalina stuff was impressive enough to suggest she can probably hang with the rest. Every time different groups of people have played, we've seen really different stuff. This is frankly a much sunnier "day one" balance picture than we could have reasonably hoped for given series history. We don't know how the other half of the cast is, what changes will be made before release, or what general metagame stuff we haven't figured out yet that might change the nature of the balance. However, the data we do have so far is just about entirely positive. I'm inclined to trust whatever they're doing for internal balance this time since honestly it seems to be working.

Just had to say, Finally somebody brings a legit and informed insight into why Street Fighter works. The most I've seen here concerning street fighter goes along the lines of "it seems defensive oriented so therefore smash can be like it". The two really can't be considered the same imo.

I pretty much addressed exactly this. The problem is that "defense" doesn't encompass one playstyle but two: zoning (aka spatial control) and runaway. Street Fighter is all about zoning and not about the runaway at all. Smash 4 is taking some very explicit steps to nerf runaway with the new airdodge and ledge mechanics which, if you're familiar with the Brawl metagame, are really huge gamechangers. In that way, the game is becoming more analogous to Street Fighter. Clearly they're not exactly the same, but I think the comparisons being drawn are really quite fair since a lot of the same general ideas really do apply. I don't think the totality of the smash 4 metagame is known now and I think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about the offensive potential (generous autocancel windows on aerials and so many characters having strong jabs and tilts), but I also will say we're seeing a lot of good stuff for defense too and don't think we should be scared of it.

 

[Lozjam]

I don't know why you wouldn't trust people most knowledgeable to dissect character strength, the top players. If they all thought she was terrible, and Sakurai claims the development team thought she was the best, then someone is wrong, and I'll take the side of the top level players every time, because they play the game at a high level.

It's an old build though so I'm certain she'll get fixed, but it doesn't sound good to anyone if the team thinks a bad character is the strongest.

Nintendo definitely knows more than any competitive player in Smash 4. Didn't you see Bill Trinten completely annihilate Toph? He completely and utterly destroyed him. Samus isn't bad in that particular build, she is decent. Plus, Namco is helping development with this game, the balance might actually be good compared to the questionable balancing in Brawl and Melee.

 

[TheKk-47]

These are all things Brawl (and Smash 4 even) receive criticism for...so I'm not sure how those are a valid arguing point for the Melee camp.

Why do we not criticize Melee for possessing the very same "bad" gameplay we defame Brawl for having? Simply because Melee did it first so it gets a pass?

This is a circumstance where it's easy to see the bias show. Brawl is vilified for its defensive mechanics, and yet in situations where these exact sort of tactics are used (often) in Melee, it's simply a logical tactic to use.

Why? Who the hell will ever know...

Lol you got it all wrong. People criticize Brawl for being too defensive and for defense winning out over offense resulting in a campy boring to watch game. Defense is used oftenly in Melee, but definitely not as much as Brawl. When you really boil down the formula of the games they're the same. Neutral-Offense/Defense vs Defense-Punish either for lack of good defense or unsafe offense-*possible* edgegaurd. Rinse and repeat. The only difference is how long these segments last and how much a player gets punished.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I've watched pretty much every 1v1 from SDCC, and honestly I enjoyed them quite a lot. 3-stock matches will still be the norm probably, but that's okay. I still remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[kisamefishfries]

Defense. Clearly this will be a terrible game. I mean clearly if the only strategy isn't go HAM then the game will be awful right? Who ever wanted play variation and balance throughout a roster?

 

[TheKk-47]

Defense. Clearly this will be a terrible game. I mean clearly if the only strategy isn't go HAM then the game will be awful right? Who ever wanted play variation and balance throughout a roster?

Dude nobody is saying "AWAY WITH DEFENSE!" People are saying that they don't want defense to be the focus of the game. We need good balance but for viewership and reception, offense needs to be favored. As we've seen, a defensive Smash (Brawl) wasn't as successful competitively as an offensive Smash (Melee).

 

[Vkrm]

Nintendo definitely knows more than any competitive player in Smash 4. Didn't you see Bill Trinten completely annihilate Toph? He completely and utterly destroyed him. Samus isn't bad in that particular build, she is decent. Plus, Namco is helping development with this game, the balance might actually be good compared to the questionable balancing in Brawl and Melee.

Toph got hit by every stage hazard, suicided twice, and died at near zero to the skyward sword beetle thingie. Not legit. I'd love to fight bill, pretty confident I'd fart in his dinner so long as no items.

I'm glad someone acknowledges this. It was clear that many Melee players were trying to play their Invitational character like their Melee incarnation. Whilst for some it worked (like PewPew's Mario) it didn't for others (look's at Ken's Marth, way too many aerial approaches in a game without a landing-lag reducing mechanic). This is why I'm not surprised that ZeRo won the Invitational. He has a grasp of Smash 4's limitations and tried his best to play to those limitations. For Bowser at SDCC, I can see that Larry was playing him much better than DJN did in the Invitational (space those Bairs with RAR, yo!).

Also pls based Hugs become the bess Megaman in Smash 4 pls

All the other brawl players got hard bodied gangnam style. Even zeros victory over Hbox was due to the jank ruleset.

 

[Senario]

Nintendo definitely knows more than any competitive player in Smash 4. Didn't you see Bill Trinten completely annihilate Toph? He completely and utterly destroyed him. Samus isn't bad in that particular build, she is decent. Plus, Namco is helping development with this game, the balance might actually be good compared to the questionable balancing in Brawl and Melee.

To be fair, Toph SD'ed twice and didn't get any items spawning near him besides the smash ball at low percent. When you first watch it you feel like Toph got destroyed by bill, but when you rewatch it toph got destroyed by items and missed all of his tossed items that he did get.

Bill clearly has played the game more but I do think Toph would easily beat him given that he would have had some practice.

All that said, Nintendo doesn't "Know better" than any competitive player in smash 4, they simply have played the game more. I'd bet anything that if you gathered the people who were at the invitational, put them in a room with a current build of smash that they would be able to provide input that Nintendo likely wouldn't have seen themselves, a lot of them are simply good smash players in general.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

All the other brawl players got hard bodied gangnam style. Even zeros victory over Hbox was due to the jank ruleset.

What Brawl players? Nearly every person in the Invitational didn't become pro Brawl players. Melee's their jam. Also, if the other Brawl players suck so bad, doesn't that say something about how good ZeRo is? He earned that win, even if he did stall.

Btw johning for another player is really low. But hey, I can play that stupid game too, if you'd like. Ummmm... I choose that Hbox lost because of the matchup!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I love the infinite johns from Melee-hardcore people to a high tier player being demolished by a developer. It really is a bit pathetic.

It really just goes to show how pretentious that camp is.

Lol you got it all wrong. People criticize Brawl for being too defensive and for defense winning out over offense resulting in a campy boring to watch game. Defense is used oftenly in Melee, but definitely not as much as Brawl. When you really boil down the formula of the games they're the same. Neutral-Offense/Defense vs Defense-Punish either for lack of good defense or unsafe offense-*possible* edgegaurd. Rinse and repeat. The only difference is how long these segments last and how much a player gets punished.

I'm aware, but Smash 4 is not Brawl, so why are we arguing? Clearly Smash 4 has received several very clear and concise changes towards solving Brawl's issues.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I love the infinite johns from Melee-hardcore people to a high tier player being demolished by a developer. It really is a bit pathetic.

It really just goes to show how pretentious that camp is.

While I agree he got bodied pretty hard, the Nintendo guy obvious was playing the game far more than he was.

The johns aren't illegitimate, he wasn't as experienced in the game as the guy playing Rosalina. Add in item play, I only know what I know via me playing with items and being in items tournaments with middle school and high school kids I've hosted tournaments for.

I don't think it's pathetic to say he had some johns there, because some are quite legitimate.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

I've been thinking about it, and I think I've discovered what my real problem is with the new direction of the series. This new smash template is simply not as intuitive to control on a fundamental level. There's a direct connection between player and character in both Melee and Smash 64 that is instantly gratifying. You truly feel as if the character is an extension of your mind; if you can think it, you can do it. Brawl simply didn't have this intuitive feel. It was clunky, it was messy, and it was imprecise. Simply put, it was less fun to control. I felt like I was fighting against the engine, rather than flowing with it.

I'm not talking about advanced mechanics here, I'm talking about basic movement options and functionality. Hugs summed it up best when he said Smash 4, like Brawl, does not allow you to go where you want and do what you want to do with ease. Your mind and the game are not simpatico as they were in the earlier iterations. Dashing is stunted, and gimped. In Melee and 64, there's an immediate responsiveness and precision in directing your character. Dash dancing feels right, because the input you're performing is reflected by the character. Air movement feels good, because it's directly influenced by your momentum. It made sense. When you performed an action, it was carried out immediately, and acted in a way that felt right. Your character grabs the ledge at a times that are contextually and physically appropriate... There was no jarring magnet like pull that defied the physics of the games themselves. Brawl is full of these strange mechanisms. It doesn't feel, or look, right.

All observations and reports indicate that this is once again the case in Smash 4. So... why? Why is this being done? Everyone appreciates agency. Casuals and pros alike want a game that makes them feel like they're in control. You want to lower the barrier for entry? Slow the game down, take away advanced techniques... but is it really necessary to sand down the edges on the freedom of movement the series is beloved for?

I've even had a few casual players play Brawl and Project M one after the other to test this theory, and they all agreed that Project M simply felt better. They used terms like "stiff" and "clumsy" to describe Brawl in comparison. Sure, it was a small sample size, but it did confirm that it wasn't a mere matter of my personal bias.

Anything is competitively viable if you want it to be. The speed of the game doesn't bother me. The number of advanced tactics don't concern me. I just want Smash to feel good again.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

While I agree he got bodied pretty hard, the Nintendo guy obvious was playing the game far more than he was.

The johns aren't illegitimate, he wasn't as experienced in the game as the guy playing Rosalina. Add in item play, I only know what I know via me playing with items and being in items tournaments with middle school and high school kids I've hosted tournaments for.

I don't think it's pathetic to say he had some johns there, because some are quite legitimate.

That's kind of the irony though.

They are legitimate johns, yet here the very same people are not more than a page earlier arguing that they are more qualified to make judgments on the status of the games balance...when clearly that is not the case. It's obvious they lack experience and knowledge of the game to the point that their constant hypocrisy becomes mortifyingly annoying.

 

[Vkrm]

What Brawl players? Nearly every person in the Invitational didn't become pro Brawl players. Melee's their jam. Also, if the other Brawl players suck so bad, doesn't that say something about how good ZeRo is? He earned that win, even if he did stall.

Btw johning for another player is really low. But hey, I can play that stupid game too, if you'd like. Ummmm... I choose that Hbox lost because of the matchup!

Rapture, crismas are both predominately brawl players, and zero is honestly as much a melee player as anybody else. That's what he plays now days. This is not me coming to defend toph or hungrybox. This me saying if you watched hbox vs zero or bill vs toph, and thought they legitimately outplayed them you're down right wrong.

I love the infinite johns from Melee-hardcore people to a high tier player being demolished by a developer. It really is a bit pathetic.

It really just goes to show how pretentious that camp is.

Really?

 

[Senario]

That's kind of the irony though.

They are legitimate johns, yet here the very same people are not more than a page earlier arguing that they are more qualified to make judgments on the status of the games balance...when clearly that is not the case. It's obvious they lack experience and knowledge of the game to the point that their constant hypocrisy becomes mortifyingly annoying.

The problem is you are assuming because they haven't played the game enough that they aren't qualified to provide good input. Zero, Ken, KDJ, PewPewU, HugS, HBox, PPMD, and so on are all just plain good smash players.

The lack of time playing with the game is not indicative of their inability to provide good critical input to the game. That is like arguing a chef cannot provide good input on a new food he has yet to try simply because he has no experience with it.

It is mortifyingly annoying how people like you continue to hate on the competitive community

 

[Deleted member 245254]

The problem is you are assuming because they haven't played the game enough that they aren't qualified to provide good input. Zero, Ken, KDJ, PewPewU, HugS, HBox, PPMD, and so on are all just plain good smash players.

The lack of time playing with the game is not indicative of their inability to provide good critical input to the game. That is like arguing a chef cannot provide good input on a new food he has yet to try simply because he has no experience with it.

It is mortifyingly annoying how people like you continue to hate on the competitive community

I don't hate on the competitive community at all, I hate on whiners and noisy teenagers who think they know everything.

 

[Venks]

The lack of time playing with the game is not indicative of their inability to provide good critical input to the game. That is like arguing a chef cannot provide good input on a new food he has yet to try simply because he has no experience with it.

If a chef has never tried a certain food before then yes I would think it weird to read too much into what he has to say about it.
I'll listen, but I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Senario]

I don't hate on the competitive community at all, I hate on whiners and noisy teenagers who think they know everything.

And you assume that these people aren't simply providing constructive criticism. Whining would be "I'm not playing this game at all because it is brawl 2.0 and I won't bother discussing why". Constructive criticism tells you why they don't think this or that would be good.

Also, isn't it immature to just dismiss some people's comment as "Noisy teenagers"? I dunno how you can do that, I'm almost to my mid 20s and I really don't care if an opinion comes from somebody who is 18 or somebody who is 35. To dismiss them because of their age is just about as immature as you make them out to be. Just saying.

Edit: On Competitive player's input. I would say it is still valid regardless of experience with the newest game because they are good smash players and know what works in competitive much like how a chef knows what good food tastes like if he does it professionally. Also, you put them in a room with the current build of the game and let them playtest it and you will definitely find that they will provide good input about what works and what doesn't and they get more experience with the game. This doesn't mean make every change they suggest but heavily consider it as it applies to competitive play and generally won't affect the most basic party level of the game. As a game designer of a competitive game it is your job to sift through the input from your players(especially the top players) as to what doesn't work and what does work. Then either of the two groups (you or them) can suggest and playtest changes that might fix problems, you test and test and test again then you come to a conclusion about what works best. Sometimes you'll get it right and sometimes they'll get it right. Sometimes a perfect medium would be a combination of both ideas.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

And you assume that these people aren't simply providing constructive criticism. Whining would be "I'm not playing this game at all because it is brawl 2.0 and I won't bother discussing why". Constructive criticism tells you why they don't think this or that would be good.

Also, isn't it immature to just dismiss some people's comment as "Noisy teenagers"? I dunno how you can do that, I'm almost to my mid 20s and I really don't care if an opinion comes from somebody who is 18 or somebody who is 35. To dismiss them because of their age is just about as immature as you make them out to be. Just saying.

Edit: On Competitive player's input. I would say it is still valid regardless of experience with the newest game because they are good smash players and know what works in competitive much like how a chef knows what good food tastes like if he does it professionally. Also, you put them in a room with the current build of the game and let them playtest it and you will definitely find that they will provide good input about what works and what doesn't and they get more experience with the game. This doesn't mean make every change they suggest but heavily consider it as it applies to competitive play and generally won't affect the most basic party level of the game. As a game designer of a competitive game it is your job to sift through the input from your players(especially the top players) as to what doesn't work and what does work. Then either of the two groups (you or them) can suggest and playtest changes that might fix problems, you test and test and test again then you come to a conclusion about what works best. Sometimes you'll get it right and sometimes they'll get it right. Sometimes a perfect medium would be a combination of both ideas.

Well it seems you don't think experience (both in life or games) makes any kind of difference in how qualified one is to make certain criticisms.

Interesting opinion (humorous as well).

 

[Senario]

Well it seems you don't think experience (both in life or games) makes any kind of difference in how qualified one is to make certain criticisms.

Interesting opinion.

Presupposition on my thoughts also somewhat of an attack on my character and what I actually think without any proof. Good luck with that argument. Come back when you have a meaningful discussion to start about it.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Presupposition on my thoughts also somewhat of an attack on my character and what I actually think without any proof. Good luck with that argument. Come back when you have a meaningful discussion to start about it.

You really do not know what you are talking about, that's what's rather blissful about you.

You make repeated and grand sweeping statements about the game, the franchise, the mechanics and the opinions of the competitive community, with basically zero support for your own arguments, I really couldn't agree more with Cassius in this regard.

All I've ever done, ultimately, was say that Melee is not perfect...therefore we should not expect Smash 4 to be perfect. That's when rambling mongoloids come in raving about how Melee is the only way to properly do Smash. That's not "the competitive community", it's a specific sect of ignorant individuals. There are so many intelligent posters (such as Shaya, Cassius, or Amazing Ampharos) who spend a hell of a lot more time than I would explaining why these people are delusional, but I haven't nearly the capacity to deal with it at the level they can so I try to make it simple, most of the time I'm typing on my phone too, which isn't always easy...but no johns.

What I think would be ideal? That folks accepted landing lag, and other perceived "bad" mechanics more gracefully instead of acting like it means the death of the game. Be open to the idea that it can work. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, and that's what I seek to prevent.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I say we wait until it actually releases.

Complaining about an outdated demo wont do you much good bro! Wait till the final product is out before you start freaking out okay?

Are you saying we should wait until the game is past its alteration period to make any judgement on what needs to be altered? Novel idea.

In a similar vein, maybe we should get rid of the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research and let the body count dictate the warning labels.

-

Insanity aside, this notion seems to ride on the belief that Nintendo would be willing to fundamentally alter the nature of a game within just a few years of its release.

 

[Senario]

You really do not know what you are talking about, that's what's rather blissful about you.

You make repeated and grand sweeping statements about the game, the franchise, the mechanics and the opinions of the competitive community, with basically zero support for your own arguments, I really couldn't agree more with Cassius in this regard.

All I've ever done, ultimately, was say that Melee is not perfect...therefore we should not expect Smash 4 to be perfect. That's when rambling mongoloids come in raving about how Melee is the only way to properly do Smash. That's not "the competitive community", it's a specific sect of ignorant individuals. There are so many intelligent posters (such as Shaya, Cassius, or Amazing Ampharos) who spend a hell of a lot more time than I would explaining why these people are delusional, but I haven't nearly the capacity to deal with it at the level they can so I try to make it simple, most of the time I'm typing on my phone too, which isn't always easy...but no johns.

What I think would be ideal? That folks accepted landing lag, and other perceived "bad" mechanics more gracefully instead of acting like it means the death of the game. Be open to the idea that it can work. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, and that's what I seek to prevent.

You want proof?

Landing Lag: (M2K)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRp1bNg738&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA
PPMD On how the game feels to play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIcb25IM8Zc&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA
D1 on general concerns with the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJH0NdmEP5M&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA
HugS on general game mobility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXjjWSZP3lU&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA
Ken and KDJ ledge and general things that could improve(mobility again makes an appearance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBHnNTkzygU

Need I go on? I am certainly not alone in my opinions of the game. And I am certainly not dismissing it but rather being concerned about it's longterm ability to be a good fighting game. A lot of melee players want a new game to sink their teeth into but if Smash 4 does not allow that you can't expect people to move on to a game they don't enjoy.

In general it feels like you are attributing "Intelligent" posters to ones that agree with you and while I would say some are good like Amazing Ampharos and Cassius(though I don't agree with him sometimes) your posts I personally do not consider among them at their level of sophistication due to the inflammatory nature of your posts every single time. It isn't even with criticism of the game itself which is fine, it is close to blatant hate for fans who do care about the game just as much as any other player but happen to like melee.

If you really must insinuate that I am not an "intelligent" poster or that I'm "delusional" You really need to stop because that is not what this thread is about, it is not about ad homenim attacks it is about concern about the longterm competitive viability of the game. And if you don't particularly care or like the game as is why bother even going to this thread? Go do something else. You clearly like the game as is, why bother taking time to complain about people who to you are "complaining"?

 

[Shaya]

I think the further we keep this thread away from Melee/Brawl direct comparison, the longer this thread will last, fyi.
It's a dangerous topic that gets unnecessarily haughty/emotional reactions, as I'm sure everyone knows.

 

[JV5Chris]

I love the infinite johns from Melee-hardcore people to a high tier player being demolished by a developer. It really is a bit pathetic.

It really just goes to show how pretentious that camp is.

You do realize Toph's response to loosing was cracking a joke, right? If you haven't figured it out by now, the Smash 4 forums and youtube comments are not going to give you a good representation of the Melee scene.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You really do not know what you are talking about, that's what's rather blissful about you.

You make repeated and grand sweeping statements about the game, the franchise, the mechanics and the opinions of the competitive community, with basically zero support for your own arguments, I really couldn't agree more with Cassius in this regard.

All I've ever done, ultimately, was say that Melee is not perfect...therefore we should not expect Smash 4 to be perfect. That's when rambling mongoloids come in raving about how Melee is the only way to properly do Smash. That's not "the competitive community", it's a specific sect of ignorant individuals. There are so many intelligent posters (such as Shaya, Cassius, or Amazing Ampharos) who spend a hell of a lot more time than I would explaining why these people are delusional, but I haven't nearly the capacity to deal with it at the level they can so I try to make it simple, most of the time I'm typing on my phone too, which isn't always easy...but no johns.

What I think would be ideal? That folks accepted landing lag, and other perceived "bad" mechanics more gracefully instead of acting like it means the death of the game. Be open to the idea that it can work. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, and that's what I seek to prevent.

Because you talk people down like a vindictive arm chair psychologist doesn't solidify anything you perceive about a person as a fact.

Instead of putting emphasis on why others beliefs are delusional, you should take down that barrier of yours, and see that these people truly have something to contribute. Many of the doctrine in politics are created on the census of the people, though many of them know nothing of politics. Ideally, in your world, the only people who would be allowed to vote for government are those who are in government, as they are the only ones who have experience in it. That's some strait up hierarchical bull****. And you know what that leads to? Totalitarianism.

Everyone's opinion matters, not only the few who decide to step on that pedestal. No one is saying the game is bad because it doesn't mimic the exact qualities of the previous games, but if there are redeeming qualities found in a game that can be improved upon, why not have them?

 

[Senario]

You do realize Toph's response to loosing was cracking a joke, right? If you haven't figured it out by now, the Smash 4 forums and youtube comments are not going to give you a good representation of the Melee scene.

I did find it funny how they mentioned a friend of theirs messaging them about that match, I laughed lol. Get wrekd XD. But if I had to look at it objectively what went on in the match is shown above lol. Still love it how a lot of the top players are friends with each other, its great.