Aerial Lag Reduction vs. Z-Canceling for Brawl 64

[Supreme Dirt]

For those who are proponents of Aerial Lag Reduction - or auto-Z-Canceling - this is basically the only chance I'm giving you to convince me to do so.

So convince me.

 

[asianaussie]

Z-cancelling is essentially a useless add-in. It introduces unnecessary 'techskill' to the game, because there is absolutely no gain from not Z-cancelling. The only exceptions are Jiggs D-Air (to pop them up slightly) and certain drills (to cause some knockback, though why you would want to do this is beyond me).

If you removed Z-cancelling from 64, the metagame would stay almost exactly the same, and even Jiggs D-Air isn't really hindered by not Z-cancelling.

Stole most of this from the social thread a long time back.

 

[ballin4life]

Z canceling is dumb. Unnecessary input since z canceling is always better than not z canceling (except jiggs dair). Might as well make everyone tap A four times to do an A move instead of just once.

It also makes noobs less likely to play since they have to practice z canceling before they can enjoy the real gameplay. Without this artificial barrier, noobs can jump straight to practicing fun techniques and strategy and actually get better at the game.

 

[ciaza]

I'm quite confident the mighty 64ers are united on the matter of Z-canceling. It's arbitrary and unnecessary for the reasons aforementioned by aa and ballin.

 

[NovaSmash]

it only took me like a week to learn z canceling, its not that hard, if someone doesnt want to practice z canceling for a little while to get good then they should go play pokemon or somethin.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Agree @ NovaSmash.

 

[Rikana]

I like ssb64 the way it is. Regardless whether or not z canceling is dumb, I would still have it in just because it follows the formula of smash.. depending on how you look at it. Both melee and 64 had some sort of AT to cancel, but you can also look at the amount it cancels too: 64 (cancels all lag) -> melee (cancels half lag) -> brawl (cancels no lag) but you gotta also have in mind that sakurai did that on purpose to remove any sort of gap between good players and casual players.. which has failed because there will always be good players in any game you play.

In conclusion, I'd say keep it. Not to be an *** but if you exclude it, I will just simply include it myself so its not a big deal to me.

 

[KingClubber]

Z-Cancel is a must, without it certain characters just can't compete with the others, auto-Z Canceling is a big NO, techskill is pretty much what defines a player skill, just because other players who can't or dislike Z-canceling doesn't mean it should be removed, if they don't want to use the skill they really don't have to.

 

[ballin4life]

it only took me like a week to learn z canceling, its not that hard, if someone doesnt want to practice z canceling for a little while to get good then they should go play pokemon or somethin.

So you want fewer players for the game?

I like ssb64 the way it is. Regardless whether or not z canceling is dumb, I would still have it in just because it follows the formula of smash.. depending on how you look at it. Both melee and 64 had some sort of AT to cancel, but you can also look at the amount it cancels too: 64 (cancels all lag) -> melee (cancels half lag) -> brawl (cancels no lag) but you gotta also have in mind that sakurai did that on purpose to remove any sort of gap between good players and casual players.. which has failed because there will always be good players in any game you play.

In conclusion, I'd say keep it. Not to be an *** but if you exclude it, I will just simply include it myself so its not a big deal to me.

Z canceling is not part of the gap between good players, and it being a gap between good and casual players is just dumb. That's really one of the reasons people like z canceling because they think they are good because they can beat up on casuals who don't know how. How about just letting the casuals play the actual game?

Z-Cancel is a must, without it certain characters just can't compete with the others, auto-Z Canceling is a big NO, techskill is pretty much what defines a player skill, just because other players who can't or dislike Z-canceling doesn't mean it should be removed, if they don't want to use the skill they really don't have to.

No idea what you're saying with "certain characters just can't compete with the others" since every character uses z canceling for almost every move.

And jesus techskill is not what makes you good. What makes you good is strategy.



Why does no one ever address the "make you hit A four times" or "make all B moves quarter circle + B instead of just up/down/side + B" examples? Because that's exactly what z canceling is. Extra inputs for no reason.

 

[Battlecow]

Theoretically I agree with Ballin', but in an actual remake, I'd lobby for Z-canceling to be included. First of all, everyone who z-cancels in regular smash would have to adjust (not as easy, perhaps, as it might sound), and second of all, even if Z-canceling wouldn't make for a better game, it would give Smash that special feel- It would be almost brawlish without Z-canceling, in some small way.

And furthermore, you would be doing new guys a disservice by not including it, because they'd have a rude awakening indeed when they tried switching to smash from Brawl 64. While the game itself would be, in some small way, better, it would create a gulf in the community and a rift that divided B64 from Smash 64.

 

[Rikana]

Z canceling is not part of the gap between good players, and it being a gap between good and casual players is just dumb. That's really one of the reasons people like z canceling because they think they are good because they can beat up on casuals who don't know how. How about just letting the casuals play the actual game?

Where in my post do I mention people who can z cancel are better? I'm pretty sure you misread or misinterpreted my post. I only mentioned how its following a certain formula for smash games in general.

 

[MK26]

Theoretically I agree with Ballin', but in an actual remake, I'd lobby for Z-canceling to be included. First of all, everyone who z-cancels in regular smash would have to adjust (not as easy, perhaps, as it might sound), and second of all, even if Z-canceling wouldn't make for a better game, it would give Smash that special feel- It would be almost brawlish without Z-canceling, in some small way.

And furthermore, you would be doing new guys a disservice by not including it, because they'd have a rude awakening indeed when they tried switching to smash from Brawl 64. While the game itself would be, in some small way, better, it would create a gulf in the community and a rift that divided B64 from Smash 64.

thisx1000000

said it better than i would be able to

z-canceling makes smash 64...well, smash 64. if that makes sense...
its like making a remake of mkds on the 3ds and taking out/reducing the power of snaking...sure it makes the game better, but at the cost of making it feel awkward for anyone trying to make the transition (sure, that's a bad analogy, but you get my point)

 

[slimpyman]

brawl+ was all about ALR. i hope the brawl64 has l cancelling. even though rudimentary, its an essential skill. im suprised the 64 backroomers want alr in instead of l cancelling though 64 had l cancelling

 

[PeachEater74]

This is ridiculous, Z canceling is a tech skill barrier, if you **** it up, you get punished. ALR automatically just makes it easier, and it's really just not Smash 64 without it. Personally, I felt accomplished when I learned how to do it.

I know Smash 64 is a terribly difficult game to learn, but it does have a bit of a tech skill barrier, and I feel that should be kept. Not to mention ALR is a very powerful thing when it comes to Z canceling; it cancels out ALL landing lag, all of it. That completely changes characters like Link who have a lot of landing lag, and makes it so maybe a player who previously could have been losing can win easier, and personally, that's not what I would want in a fighting game. I would want people to have to practice, to be consistent and precise. If a player who isn't as good gets pressured a lot, there's a chance you can **** them up and they miss a Z-cancel, then you punish them. This element would be lost in this.

Also, the argument for casuals vs non-casuals is silly. I know I played and loved Melee and 64 before I even knew about l canceling, and casuals who love 64 now will play this regardless, I would hardly call it a deterrent from anyone. Maybe it could possibly scare off some people who are like, Brawl only players, but this project is hardly targeted at them.

I know I would not play this project at all if it had ALR, I would be pretty pissed about it.

In all honesty, though; it's one code, right? Why not just figure out a way to add it into settings, so people have the option to chose for casual play, but make one an official B64BR standard. And if that's not possible, at least write a code for it so I can add it in myself if you decide otherwise, I hate ALR, especially for a tool as powerful as Z cancel.

 

[ballin4life]

Why make the game so different between casuals and non-casuals? It just makes the transition more difficult, and loses players for the competitive community.

Maybe another example will do. Tennis has a ridiculous tech skill barrier. Assuming you don't play tennis already, I might try to convince you that tennis is the greatest game, and there is so much awesome strategy. But you will be much less willing to try it because of the tech skill barrier - you have to spend time practicing serves and strokes to even be able to appreciate the strategy. Thus fewer people will join the competitive community if there is increased tech skill. (The difference for tennis is that the tech skill involved is an integral part of the game, whereas z canceling is totally unnecessary. It would be like telling tennis players they have to point their racket up at the sky after every shot for no reason).

If however part of the purpose of this is to make more people play 64 then I would agree with battlecow.

 

[PeachEater74]

Why make the game so different between casuals and non-casuals? It just makes the transition more difficult, and loses players for the competitive community.

Maybe another example will do. Tennis has a ridiculous tech skill barrier. Assuming you don't play tennis already, I might try to convince you that tennis is the greatest game, and there is so much awesome strategy. But you will be much less willing to try it because of the tech skill barrier - you have to spend time practicing serves and strokes to even be able to appreciate the strategy. Thus fewer people will join the competitive community if there is increased tech skill. (The difference for tennis is that the tech skill involved is an integral part of the game, whereas z canceling is totally unnecessary. It would be like telling tennis players they have to point their racket up at the sky after every shot for no reason).

If however part of the purpose of this is to make more people play 64 then I would agree with battlecow.

A technical barrier is something a fighting game should have. Should it be the most difficult part? No, absolutely not. Reading, spacing, combos, and many other things are just as important, if not some more important to fighting games. That is why I feel SSB64 is the best of the three Smash Bros games, it's got the perfect balance of all the fighting game mechanics. None of the mechanics implemented are too overwhelming. Z-Canceling is one of them, and it's not overwhelming. I would love to have the competitive community for SSB64 increased, but I wouldn't want a bunch of people to join who are afraid of Z-Canceling, one of the easiest technical things to do. I also really do think it's too powerful to just have it automated. ALR is a bit different, it only removes half the landing lag, which in a lot of cases is actually almost useless. However, with Z canceling, there are many occasions where if you mess it up there is a huge opportunity for the opponent to jump in on you, especially if you're someone like Link who has a lot of landing lag on moves.

I understand wanting to expand the community, but removing a well known feature (which by the way, a bunch of players complained about its removal in Brawl). Just having a version of smash 64 in Brawl will already give the game a fairly large amount of attention, and I do feel it should stay true to the original game, because it doesn't hinder anything really.

 

[Slashy]

Smash was never a technical game to begin with. I say no.

 

[NeoZ]

Z-cancelling isn't even hard, it's not a barrier new players have to overcome.
I hadn't played 64 in more than 10 years, I didn't know z-cancelling existed back then, yet I played it 4 days ago and had no trouble doing it in my first try.

It may be unnecessary, but it is in no way a something that would keep casual players away from the game or make it too hard for them.

I had fun both with melee and 64 for a lot of time without even knowing you could L/Z-cancel and I think most other people did too.

Lag cancelling at least leaves room for someone to make a mistake and get punished, automatic lag reduction would just make throwing out aerials safe for no reason.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah, why do we even need skill in a video game anyway? Video games aren't meant to challenge the player after all.

WHO WANTS TO PLAY WITH ITEMS ON?!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

WHO WANTS TO PLAY WITH ITEMS ON?!

I totally do. $50 MM, Bonus match, Items on high.

Oh, and infinite time. Pichu vs. Pichu. On Poké Floats. With 2 level 9 CPUs. Oh, and you can't grab or wavedash, cause those are cheap.


Anyways... A mod can pretty much close this now, it's served its purpose. There will be Z-Canceling in Brawl 64.

 

[MonkUnit]

If it is on infinite time, how will the match end and determine who gets the $50 from the MM? Think about these things next time.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If it is on infinite time, how will the match end and determine who gets the $50 from the MM? Think about these things next time.

Oh that's right.

So we'll have someone playing on a system next to us as GnW using judgment repeatedly. The match ends when the GnW gets 3 1s and then 2 9s, consecutively in that order.

 

[NeoZ]

Oh that's right.

So we'll have someone playing on a system next to us as GnW using judgment repeatedly. The match ends when the GnW gets 3 1s and then 2 9s, consecutively in that order.

Not possible due to how judgement works.

 

[Big-Cat]

As some have said, Z-Canceling is a dumb concept. Every mechanic needs a reason why you should and shouldn't use a mechanic. Even if it's for very specific scenarios, one option should not be infinitely more viable than the other when deciding to do a mechanic.

Tech skill should be about adding more options, not separating players of different skill levels.

To think there's even a debate about this is baffling.

 

[Ulevo]

As some have said, Z-Canceling is a dumb concept. Every mechanic needs a reason why you should and shouldn't use a mechanic. Even if it's for very specific scenarios, one option should not be infinitely more viable than the other when deciding to do a mechanic.

Tech skill should be about adding more options, not separating players of different skill levels.

To think there's even a debate about this is baffling.

I think it is even more baffling that people are willing to commit to this type of an argument. It's very naive.

Listen very carefully.

Video games are meant to challenge the player. There is always a particular goal set forth for the player to attempt to achieve, and a set of obstacles in that players way in order to make it challenging to reach that achievement. It's been this way since the Mario days.

In the case of player versus player styled gaming, the goal is to beat the other player. If there is nothing to differentiate the skill level between one player with more skill, to the player with less skill, then precisely what is the point in even playing the game?

Fighting games incorporate both the requirements of technical play, and mental capabilities. L Canceling fits in to the former category.

Players will not always land L Cancels. Professional players miss them occasionally, and it costs them. They are rewarded for their consistency when they land the L Cancel, and are punished for when they missed it. It's not about "options", it's about making the game actually worth investing time in to. You know that differentiation you're describing? It's there on purpose.

I try to be polite in these types of debates, but it's this type of scrub mentality that spawned horrendously terrible games like Brawl.

I don't really care what you guys decide since I'm not particularly interested in this mod, even though I think the idea is really awesome. I just felt the need to point out the sheer stupidity this perpetuated argument entails.

 

[Big-Cat]

In the case of player versus player styled gaming, the goal is to beat the other player. If there is nothing to differentiate the skill level between one player with more skill, to the player with less skill, then precisely what is the point in even playing the game?

I've seen it before and let me explain something. It doesn't mean anything if I can pull off an epic combo in training mode, what matters is whether or not I can apply it, set up for it, etc.

Fighting games incorporate both the requirements of technical play, and mental capabilities. L Canceling fits in to the former category.

L-Canceling is the bad kind of technical skill as it is. L-Canceling is really just an unbalanced FADC/RC. The latter require a cost to do them, thus leading to depth. L-Canceling has no cost. It's the same as the Sense Move in Metroid Other M.

And lol at you saying I have a scrub mentality.

 

[Ulevo]

You do have scrub mentality.

If you promote this idea, then I would assume that you'd be for either removing Perfect Shield, or making shields auto Perfect Shield. There isn't any meaning in shielding by itself when I can simply Perfect Shield, and it's just a timing thing. Why should a more skilled player than me be rewarded for landing the timing on using their shield? Normal shield doesn't provide any benefits that Perfect Shield does not, so it just creates differential advantage between players.

Or how about auto ledge snap? Why should I have to time my sweet spots?

And hey, while we're at it. GC controllers have an extra jump button they're not using. Lets map short hop to the extra jump button. I mean, it's there, so why not. I don't see why I should have good reflexes in order to jump lower, that doesn't make sense.

You're using fallacious reasoning to justify removing a technical gameplay quality when the only real reasoning you have is that you simply don't like it. And by the way, a mechanic doesn't have to add depth to be a welcomed inclusion.

 

[4nace]

As a Game Designer (amateur though), I look at it this way.

Aerial Lag is very important to the smash series, it balances out aerial attacks by punishing those who try to hit grounded opponents with attacks that are meant to be designed to knock people out of the air.

In Smash 64 players quickly learned that you could press 'Z' while landing and cancel this lag, this made aerial attacks near the ground undoubtedly the best option in the game, it also made matches look much, much faster and cooler. The only catch was that it required a decent amount of practice and understanding of the weight of your character to do correctly.

Eventually though, Z-Cancelling took over the meta-game and simply became part of how Smash 64 is played. Every competitive player could do it with at least their main if not all characters. So since all competitive players could do it, aerial lag was pretty much removed from Smash 64. The gameplay is so different and the way that characters are ranked is completely different without aerial lag. The only thing that the 'Z-Cancelling' added in addition to getting rid of aerial lag is that it made you have to hit a button with frame precision, which meant your controller needed to have that as a good button. It also meant that you could crap on your friends alot easier since they would never learn that tech.

So in the end, Z-Cancelling removes Aerial Lag as a balancer and separates competitive players from new players by alot. Not only that, but it does not do much to show skill level. Some people can think through smash better than others, but they would get stomped if they do not practice Z-cancelling. Z-cancelling pretty much only aids those who play often or practice it alot. If Sakurai could go back, I'm sure he would have had no Z-Cancelling and kept the Aerial Lag as it was to keep the game slower and more fun for newbies.

So take it as you will. If you want to keep the separation between competitive and friendly then go for it. I do love stomping badies and it makes me sad I can't stomp as hard in Brawl.

Then again, my friends will sometimes play Brawl with me, but I could never get them to play me in Melee.

-4nace

 

[Big-Cat]

So I have a scrub mentality because I say a mechanic is unbalanced? If anything, you have an elitist mentality. You value technical skill over strategic application since you approve of both Perfect Shielding and L-Canceling as they are.

If I have perfect timing, is there a reason for me to not Perfect Shield? No. I don't lose anything from doing anything as such. Compare this to the mechanics in SSF4 were every mechanic has reasons as to why you should and shouldn't do those mechanics.

 

[Ulevo]

So I have a scrub mentality because I say a mechanic is unbalanced? If anything, you have an elitist mentality. You value technical skill over strategic application since you approve of both Perfect Shielding and L-Canceling as they are.

If I have perfect timing, is there a reason for me to not Perfect Shield? No. I don't lose anything from doing anything as such. Compare this to the mechanics in SSF4 were every mechanic has reasons as to why you should and shouldn't do those mechanics.

Yo man, stop straw manning me.

I'm implying you have a scrub mentality because you fail to recognize the importance of practice and effort in not just competitive gaming, but gaming in general. I don't value technical ability over mental capability, so please don't make that presumption to enforce your arguments; that's far from the truth. The irony is that you're accusing me of favouring one area of skill over another (when I'm simply trying to promote the idea that both aspects of a fighting game, Smash included, are necessities), and yet you're trying to make the game technically easier. I simply don't ignore the importance of technical game play in a fighting game of all things like you seem to feel is necessary.

Also, the issue of L Canceling being necessary and balanced are completely different topics.

As for Street Fighter; I am not knowledgable enough in the game itself to undoubtably say for certain whether or not there are mechanics you would label as "unnecessary" or not. However, I do know the game is very frame tight. You cannot sit their and execute combos by just understanding them; you need to have very good reaction time and a lot of hours put in to the craft in order to pull it off consistently, especially under pressure.
The arguments you're presenting would imply, given Street Fighter as an example, that the frame windows of execution are too tight, and would need to be opened up to make them easier, meanwhile this is one of the qualities of Street Fighter that people appreciate about it.

Call me elitist, I'm alright with that. But I suggest you ponder a little while as to why Brawl has a hate crowd. If you think going this direction is a good idea for a mod for Smash then I'll be dumbfounded if you believe people are going to take you seriously. When you're pretending to be Masahiro Sakurai and removing gameplay mechanics to make the lesser player not feel left out, you won't be.

Also, something I wanted to make note of:

If Sakurai could go back, I'm sure he would have had no Z-Cancelling and kept the Aerial Lag as it was to keep the game slower and more fun for newbies.

I don't think we should be basing decisions and opinions on how Sakurai would have done things. This, to me, seems more than a little silly. Lets not forget why this thread is even here in the first place.

 

[Big-Cat]

Let's see if I can re-explain my position.

Both technical skill and mental skill are needed for any good player. It doesn't matter if I can do a combo in training mode if I can't do it in the heat of battle or on punishment. Likewise, it doesn't matter if I know what to do in a situation but lack the technical capability to do so.

This does not justify something as depthless as ALC. Take away this mechanic and make ALC automatic and you remove a minor technical barrier. Nothing else changes. The metagame doesn't change.

To say I want the game simplified would be an utter lie. I play SSF4, and soon MvC3 and possibly BBCS, competitively. I'm against both depthless games and depthless mechanics. I love a game when it is deep and each of mechanics have pros and cons (meaning they are balanced).

With L-canceling, I'd expand the concept and/or implement it differently. Like let's say there was a super meter and I attack with Pikachu's Down B. I can either conserve my meter or cancel out of Down B with L-Canceling at the cost of half my meter to finish off the opponent with a followup attack.

 

[Shadic]

Anyways... A mod can pretty much close this now, it's served its purpose. There will be Z-Canceling in Brawl 64.

Seems odd you makes a decision right up like this, especially considering your first two responses were from Smash64 BRoomers strongly opposing manual canceling.

 

[Ulevo]

Let's see if I can re-explain my position.

Both technical skill and mental skill are needed for any good player. It doesn't matter if I can do a combo in training mode if I can't do it in the heat of battle or on punishment. Likewise, it doesn't matter if I know what to do in a situation but lack the technical capability to do so.

This does not justify something as depthless as ALC. Take away this mechanic and make ALC automatic and you remove a minor technical barrier. Nothing else changes. The metagame doesn't change.

To say I want the game simplified would be an utter lie. I play SSF4, and soon MvC3 and possibly BBCS, competitively. I'm against both depthless games and depthless mechanics. I love a game when it is deep and each of mechanics have pros and cons (meaning they are balanced).

With L-canceling, I'd expand the concept and/or implement it differently. Like let's say there was a super meter and I attack with Pikachu's Down B. I can either conserve my meter or cancel out of Down B with L-Canceling at the cost of half my meter to finish off the opponent with a followup attack.

Again with the strawmanning.

I don't care if the mechanic adds depth, or not. By the context in which you are speaking, you refer to depth as adding options. As I explained before, a mechanic doesn't need to add options in order to be a welcomed addition. Learning curve is important as well.

ALC removes a significant technical barrier. ESPECIALLY in 64. You miss a Z Cancel in 64, and you lose a stock. That is a significant change in the Smash 64 paradigm. Suddenly players don't need to worry about being consistent with their aerials anymore? Are you serious?

And to say the metagame doesn't change is also naive. Take away technical barriers in Melee, and suddenly Fox and Falco are topping every major event. Take away technical barriers in Brawl, and suddenly Ice Climbers are dominating the scene alongside Meta Knight and Snake. Technical barriers directly effect the metagame, especially in tournament play. One of the reasons Marth was one of the most tournament successful characters in Melee for the longest time was because he was easier to use than the other top tiers; a player could use Marth throughout the tournament without having to exhaust as much effort as a Fox or Falco main would, and that keeps the player fresh for the tougher matches later on in the tournament. M2K explicitly talks about this when he mentions why he mains Sheik.

And of course, lets not forget that we're not just talking about ALC. We're also talking about anything else that follows this trend; Perfect Shield, auto-ledge snap, et cetera.

I'm not even going to argue about this anymore because if it's not effecting Project M then I quite frankly don't give a damn. If I had to give a positive recommendation for this particular mod, it would be to implement physics and gameplay to be exactly as they were in 64, because that is the crowd you are trying to please. That's my take.

 

[Life]

I propose that Z-Canceling remains in, but a z-canceled aerial stales twice instead of once. You now have to make a decision whether to z-cancel or not, thereby legitimizing the mechanic. We keep the (ridiculously tiny, I might add) techskill requirement while not having a pointless mechanic in the game.

Or something similar. Basically, add a minor penalty when z-canceling so that doing it is not always the best decision.

Also, powershielding is fine because a continuous powershield would be broken against projectiles (at least, the Melee PS anyway, Brawl doesn't reflect and IDK about 64).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

64 does not have powershielding.

 

[Life]

64 does not have powershielding.

K, but what do you think of the rest of the post?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

What of moves that are better off when not Z-Canceled?

Also, I'm not entirely sure if moves even staled in 64. If they didn't stale, you can be certain I'll be removing stale moves.

 

[Daakun]

I was against L-canceling in B+, but that was because the codeset was supposed to be improving the game overall.
This codeset is an attempt to be as similar to Smash 64 as it can manage, so while I still say it's a very silly thing to do instead of just reducing lag all around, it should be in there for the sake of accuracy.

 

[GP&B]

What of moves that are better off when not Z-Canceled?

Also, I'm not entirely sure if moves even staled in 64. If they didn't stale, you can be certain I'll be removing stale moves.

I believe they staled just like in Melee. Problem is, Brawl's stale move system reduces both damage and knockback. You are much better off just removing the system altogether until a proper fix is made.

 

[Slashy]

What of moves that are better off when not Z-Canceled?

Also, I'm not entirely sure if moves even staled in 64. If they didn't stale, you can be certain I'll be removing stale moves.

They staled damage and knockback, it just took a ridiculously long time that it didn't matter.

You can always have Z-Canceling eat up your shield.