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Advocates for a More Open Stage List Unite!

TheMasterDS

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Also while UFC and Boxing don't have random elements Wrestling thrives on it and people who watch Wrestling love it.

Course I'm not suggesting Smash tournaments should be scripted or involve breaking bottles over people's heads, that'd be silly. Mind you if someone were to do I'd be down to watch that.
 

Noa.

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I was under the impression that wrestling like wwe was not a sport or competition, but a physical event to entertain an audience. The purpose of each match is to get people to watch it, not determine who is actually the better fighter. Or maybe in wrong.
 

Conda

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I was under the impression that wrestling like wwe was not a sport or competition, but a physical event to entertain an audience. The purpose of each match is to get people to watch it, not determine who is actually the better fighter. Or maybe in wrong.
That's correct.
 

Unbounded

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Smash is a fighting game, and thus like boxing and ufc do not generally benefit much from random effects. UNLESS we decide that smash WOULD be better if the competitive pro players had to also be skilled at luck management (like poker or gold or whathaveyou).

THAT is the debate, and we have to stop pretending it's about TOs and pro players being ban-happy bad guys and the good-guys 'advocating for a more open stage list.' It's about keep Smash as the type of competitive game it is now, or turning it into one where luck/randomness-management is a crucial skillset.
Not quite.

First off, the debate isn't about changing smash, as that refers to previous entries. The debate is about how we as a community should handle this new game with new elements in it. This discussion has no need to extend into prior games since every single smash game has been significantly different.

Second, it isn't really even necessarily about luck management. A good chunk of the banned stages like the reset bomb forest, brinstar, and jungle japes that people want don't really have any random elements, since things in those stages occur on a cycle. It's a discussion about hazard management. Saying it's luck or randomness management gives off an absolutely incorrect impression of what the posters in this thread want, and also ignores that historically smash has had a pretty decent degree of luck/risk management in certain characters.
 

TheMasterDS

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Yes, wrestling is fake but at the same time it's got a lot in common with Smash. It has colorful characters, different maps and events which change the nature of various match ups and rules intentionally designed to hone the drama that audiences like. Apart from the obvious part where it's not real it has a lot in common with Smash Brothers.
 
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D

Deleted member 268018

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Why are people tearing and crying over stages? Grow a pair. It's part of the game, and not overly broken. I heard that Norfair in the Wii was banned in some tournaments, I don't know why. The lava can be shielded and/or dodged through. If you can't dodge through that, then you're obviously not good enough to be in a tournament. Sure, I'd rather have all out FD for every stage, but there shouldn't be all these tears about it.
 

Delzethin

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@ Conda Conda : The crux of your argument seems to be the idea that all stage hazards are complete luck factors and that any serious competitive players would shun any tournaments with stage lists that had anything beyond the most basic ones. That has never been the case, as there are at the very least a handful of stages whose hazards are either telegraphed or on a timer. You seem to think that hazards are inherently bad for the metagame and that they "ruin" a competition of skill. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think that at least a handful of stage hazards interact with fighters in a way so that strategies can be built to utilize or avoid them.

Instead of "ruining" the metagame, stages with predictable or telegraphed hazards that are not overpowered actually add depth to it.
 
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Boss N

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Haven't read the whole thread, just the first page, and don't know if this has already devolved into a preaching to the choir thread where the only people left are those who agree with the OP.
Oh believe me, I'm trying my best to make sure that doesn't happen. But god damn is it hard :dizzy:

So ATTEMPTING to get back on subject: on the issue of walkoffs, like wall infinities it's looking like it's been made completely impossible to chain grab, and it looks like grabs can't kill at early percentage so walk off camping doesn't look like a viable tactic anymore. A lot of changes Sakurai has made to the game seem to be made to specifically address stalling tactics pro players have been utilizing in past games. Example: you don't get invincibility anymore for re-grabing ledges. If this much attention to detail was made to address these issues then he surely is aware of walk-off camping. If it was still possible to do then we wouldn't include SO MANY stages with them.

That's of coarse a logical, deductive way of assuring that walkoffs are still viable in this game. But on this thread, we like to go the extra mile with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

So here's the breakdown, it's very similar to the wall infinite test:

To test walk off camping will be a viable tactic, it will require the tester to obtain a friend code from the forums. The "Tester" must remain anonymous about the experiment the whole time. The tester will purposely camp either off screen or just a little bit in front of off screen and remain there. The tester must get all their KO's by throwing their opponent off screen or hitting them hard enough without leaving their designated area. If the tester is constantly getting punished for this tactic and failing then Walkoff camping is not viable, but if they are then the stage in question will be "considered" ban worthy if enough evidence is presented by multiple people. Each tester must perform 3 matches on the same stage with at least 3 different people. Video Evidence is also required

I still haven't gotten confirmation from anyone here who would like to test, if anyone at all is interested announce it on the threads or PM me, on the last page I presented the experiment breakdown for testing wall infinities and bits and pieces on how we're going to test everything else, lets try to stay on topic guys.
 
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Conda

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Sorry, im talking about advocates for a certain kind of hazard. Reducing what I and other have been saying to what you've taken away from it means there's really no point of us continuing to try and discuss our actual points.

@ Conda Conda : The crux of your argument seem to be the idea that all stage hazards are complete luck factors and that any serious competitive players would shun any tournaments with stage lists that had anything beyond the most basic ones. That has never been the case, as there are at the very least a handful of stages whose hazards are either telegraphed or on a timer. You seem to think that hazards are inherently bad for the metagame and that they "ruin" a competition of skill. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think that at least a handful of stage hazards interact with fighters in a way so that strategies can be built to utilize or avoid them.

Instead of "ruining" the metagame, stages with predictable or telegraphed hazards that are not overpowered actually add depth to it.
 
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infomon

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Smash is a fighting game, and as a competitive sport focuses on dexterity, combat tactics, and control mastery.
No, Smash is a fighting/platformer game. Sakurai has said this many times. There are more/different skills involved in Smash Bros. than other fighting games; it's dangerous to apply labels.

I basically agree with what you said, just wanted to point that out. I do think that understanding, controlling, and responding to dynamic elements of stages is an integral part of the game. Honestly, same with responding to items, unfortunately I think they're just too powerful/frequent/random for competitive play to make sense.

Mastery of Final Destination is very different from mastery of Smash Bros.
 
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Conda

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I was not meaning Smash is thusly not a platformer. I was speaking in the broader meaning due to the context and subject matter in the rest of my post. It also being a platformer doesnt change my post about how sports/games are different from one another and elements from one dont necessarily benefit the skillset ceiling in another.

As I've said, reducing what I and other have been saying to what you've taken away from it means there's really no point of us continuing to try and discuss our actual points.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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If you ask me, Brinstar seems like a reasonable stage this time around. Sure, it can be retched to bounce around vulnerably like that, but it's not as bad as it was in Melee I find.

Seeing as no one falls as fast as they did in Melee, that gives them ample time to try and avoid being killed by the lava below. And all the recoveries (bar Little Mac's), especially when customized, look like they can keep a player alive on this stage.

And of course, the lava is easily telegraphed, and good for disrupting campy play styles. It could make a good counter pick at least

Edit: I just had a thought; could we vector the lava?
 
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Burnsy

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The lack of chain grabs does not make walk-offs viable for tournament play hahahaha dude what are you smoking

Go ahead and ask me to explain why but I shouldn't need to
 
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infomon

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The lack of chain grabs does not make walk-offs viable for tournament play hahahaha dude what are you smoking

Go ahead and ask me to explain why but I shouldn't need to
I'd like you to explain, for the sake of the 'boards, but I'd much rather that you prove it. :)

:093:

Edit: Off-topic, but your profile pic is both hilarious and creepy as sin.
 
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Wazygoose

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Didn't think I'd post again but the discussion is actually interesting and everyone has been impressively level-headed :D

Props to you @ Conda Conda for almost single handly representing the current competitive status quo and giving meaningful feedback. I think you're definitely right in that one of the core issues with hazards is a difference in outlook on what skillset players need to develop. Adapting to stage hazards and practicing the nuances of each stage is much different from vanilla battlefield or FD style play where those things are taken out of the equation.

Expanded stage lists have been tried in previous Smash games and deemed unfit, which is fine. but it'd be great to use the OP's idea to systematically test stages in its newest iteration before playstyles are developed which preclude them. Custom moves could really shine here, too.

I'd definitely like having more stages legal than illegal. I also see this as possible. The way I see we should whittle down our stage list follows:
  • Hazards you cannot anticipate and react to (cars in Mute City Melee, power ups in Wario Ware). Hazards which you can take actions towards (Brawl Frigate's flip which you can react to, Magicant's Bird Man which you can anticipate) are fair game.
  • Next, whether it is possible to walk off camp. If so, any stage where this is effective should be banned. Note the phrasing, "where this is possible" rather than "walk offs". Gaur Plains, for example, doesn't seem like walk off camping would be effective as your opponent can attack from beneath you (I think? For the life of me, I couldn't find gameplay of it on youtube.). Similarly, it might be difficult in Gerudo Valley where the witches can take out entire sides of the stage.
  • One player being able to stall the match indefinitely with their opponent being unable to stop them in any way shape or form. Example includes any stage where circle camping is possible. Similar, wall infinites in past games.
This is the best proposal in this thread so far. Using these guidelines, we can quickly narrow down stages and then systematically test what is left. I think doing just these two things can produce an awesome list to propose to the community.
 

MajorMajora

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I really believe that stages with reasonable hazards (brinstar, for example) would actually add a lot to counter picking strategy and make tournaments more cerebral. I'd love to see a tournament that experimented with some of these stages. My votes are on reset bomb forest, arena ferox, jungle japes, prism tower, and brinstar being added as counter pick only stages for a tourney or two.
 
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Boss N

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BIGG READ INCOMING:

I know this is a wall of text and not everyone will be willing to read this, BUT THIS IS CONCERNING WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT so I really need as many people as possible to pay attention and please look over this. It's vital.
The following is a compilation of a lot of information already put forward. This is the 2nd version of the testing procedure and ban criteria list, want to see what you guys think and any changes, additions, subtractions should be made.

First off:

WALK OFF CAMPING TEST PROCEDURE

in response to this:
The lack of chain grabs does not make walk-offs viable for tournament play hahahaha dude what are you smoking

Go ahead and ask me to explain why but I shouldn't need to
I had already extensively described this situation right before you commented, but for anyone who may have missed it, "like wall infinities it's looking like it's been made completely impossible to chain grab, and it looks like grabs can't kill at early percentage so walk off camping doesn't look like a viable tactic anymore, as it will only add more damage to the camper and more likely to backfire then benefit.* A lot of changes Sakurai has made to the game seem to be made to specifically address stalling tactics pro players have been utilizing in past games. Example: you don't get invincibility anymore for re-grabing ledges. If this much attention to detail was made to address these issues then he surely is aware of walk-off camping. If it was still possible to do then we wouldn't include SO MANY stages with them.

That's of coarse a logical, deductive way of assuring that walkoffs are still viable in this game. But on this thread, we like to go the extra mile with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

So here's the breakdown, it's very similar to the wall infinite test:
To test walk off camping will be a viable tactic, it will require the tester to obtain a friend code from the forums. The "Tester" must remain anonymous about the experiment the whole time. The tester will purposely camp either off screen or just a little bit in front of off screen, or any location they think it will be possible, and remain there. The tester must get all their KO's by throwing their opponent off screen or hitting them hard enough without leaving their designated area. If the tester is constantly getting punished for this tactic and failing then Walkoff camping is not viable, but if they are then the stage in question will be "considered" ban worthy if enough evidence is presented by multiple people. Each tester must perform 3 matches on the same stage with at least 3 different people. Video Evidence is also required"

If you have a rebuttal then lets hear it.

WALL INFINITY TEST PROCEDURE

So from the sounds of it Wall infinities are impossible to do in this game, however just to be safe it wouldn't hurt to give this a test. To test wall infinities will require a friend, purposely walking both of you over to a corner where you think it's possible, and the "Attacker" will do a bunch of tilts and other attacks to see how long they can keep the "victim" inside their barrage. Meanwhile the victim has to try to escape in a reasonable amount of time. If they are successful within 5-10 seconds then the stage is still viable, anything over 20 seconds should be questionable and anything over a minute is without question ban worthy.Tester must record how long they kept their victim in the combo and their percentage when they escaped. Procedure must be repeated at least 3 times with different opponents each time.
In case of event that such a stage is presented, another test must be performed to see how easy it is to abuse this area. Players will get a friend code from the forums and challenge their respective player. They must remain anonymous about the test until all the other testers have completed their experiments. Then they must lure their opponent to the corner. If they are successful multiple times, consistently across various opponents then the stage should be banned. Players MUST present video evidence!

CIRCLE CAMPING TEST PROCEDURE
If a stage has been claimed to be "unviable due to the ability to circle camp" then a controlled test must be performed. One person must be designated "the runner" and the other "the chaser". Both players have only 1 stock with 6min time limit, the goal of the runner is to stay alive as long as possible by staying as mobile as possible and keeping their opponent away using any & all means necessary. The goal of the Chaser is to knock out the runner as quickly as possible. If the clock times out before the runner is knocked out then the stage is "considered" ban worthy, however unanimous evidence must be presented by other testers in order to be fully pasted. The testers will try these combinations in this order:
-Both players are fast characters like Shiek (both ned to play the exact same character)
-Chaser is a slower character while runner is faster
-Chaser is slower character while runner is efficient at moving through the air (like multi jump characters, Villager's upB etc.)
-Chaser is a range heavy character while runner is faster
-Chaser is a range heavy character while runner is air efficient
-Chaser is Air efficient while runner is faster.

The reason for this many combinations is to determine if it's truly the openness of the stage that's causing it or the matchup.

STANDARD STAGE LEGALITY EVALUATION PROCEDURE & CRITERIASimply gather friend codes from the forums, once again remaining completely anonymous about the experiment. As you fight, observe the tactics of your opponent and how the stage is used.
+If you are the superior player and your consistently winning, then the stage is balanced.
+ If you're the superior player and matches are coming close to even, then the stage is questionable.
+ If you are the superior player and your losing more matches than you should be, then the stage needs to have further evaluation and inspection.

If the latter happens then here is the criteria to be considered officially ban-worthy:

First the tester must eliminate the possibility that their opponent is actually the superior player, in which case they must look at their player records on the 3DS and observe their win/lose ratio (if it's possible in 'with friends' mode') or contact them through smash boards and ask about their smash history & experience. If they are indeed the better player then the stage is balanced.

Observe what tactics they're using, if their strategy utilizing stage involves them using stage hazards or gimmicks then the strategy needs to be countered someway to be still considered viable, unless said strategy requires little effort and huge reward for the player. If the opponent is utilizing stalling tactics like walk or circle camping then a separate test must be conducted to verify. (see appropriate sections above.

If the claim is due to a particular hazard or element of the stage, then the person must provide at least 3 video clips showing the instance of the event, however more will be preferable as long as they're legitament and not staged.
The definition of an unfair stage element is one that:

-Doesn't telegraph it's effects within 3-5 seconds or in a timely fashion to be utilized by a player
-creates a situation that instantly puts 1 player in a severely bad position and cannot be reasonably avoided or predicted

Claims that such hazards fall under theses categories MUST PROVIDE RECORDED MATCHES THAT DEMONSTRATE THIS, at least 3 times by a person whose record signifies a lower skill than the person making the claim.

So thoughts, comments, concerns? Also if anyone if willing to help me perform the tests when the game comes out, announce it in the thread or PM me, the more hands we get on this the better.
 

Unbounded

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Regarding your wall infinite test procedure, it should be based more-so on damage than on time. If someone manages to hold someone against a wall for a solid minute but only manages to get 20% damage off it isn't as big a deal as someone being able to get 100% damage in 5 seconds with a wall.

On hazard analysis, your methods for 'determining the better player' really don't help very much since you can have a poor win/loss ratio and still be the better player, just you tend to play against people on a much higher skill level or whatever. Moreover 'better' is kinda arbitrary. Stage hazards should probably be handled by gathering data on stages when we actually get the game. We can figure out whether hazards are predictable/telegraphed or random ourselves by just observing and putting numbers to it. If it's found to be predictable or significantly telegraphed within decent reaction times(3-5 seconds.), it's OK until something else comes up or it's found to be obstructive. If it's found to be significantly random, (as in we cannot reasonably predict it at least 68% of the time) then we would simply have to have players test said stages and decide as a community where to go from there.
 

TheMasterDS

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Yeah, competitive games are ostensibly about finding the best player but the truth of it is a lot more nuanced than that. Among peers a 60% win rate is incredibly strong. That doesn't mean that 40% of the time the game chooses wrong, that's based on false assumptions. Like that the game determines who is better, or that being better is a constant and simple thing rather than a fluid and complex thing.

The thing that a good match of Smash determines is simple. Who won the day. That's all.
 

Boss N

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On hazard analysis, your methods for 'determining the better player' really don't help very much since you can have a poor win/loss ratio and still be the better player, just you tend to play against people on a much higher skill level or whatever. Moreover 'better' is kinda arbitrary. Stage hazards should probably be handled by gathering data on stages when we actually get the game. We can figure out whether hazards are predictable/telegraphed or random ourselves by just observing and putting numbers to it. If it's found to be predictable or significantly telegraphed within decent reaction times(3-5 seconds.), it's OK until something else comes up or it's found to be obstructive. If it's found to be significantly random, (as in we cannot reasonably predict it at least 68% of the time) then we would simply have to have players test said stages and decide as a community where to go from there.
Yeah, competitive games are ostensibly about finding the best player but the truth of it is a lot more nuanced than that. Among peers a 60% win rate is incredibly strong. That doesn't mean that 40% of the time the game chooses wrong, that's based on false assumptions. Like that the game determines who is better, or that being better is a constant and simple thing rather than a fluid and complex thing.
Good points, I'll start revisions after classes today. This actually makes it much easier to test hazards.
If the hazards in question do turn out to be random what do you guys think will be the best way to determine if they can still be utilized?
 

Piford

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For circle camping, isn't it possible for some characters to circle camp on a lot of stages, like Villager? He can basically use his Up-B to circle around every stage that has a floating platform.
 

infomon

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I'm pretty sure every character will be able to telegraph which edge he's going towards, and punish him when he lands on the ledge. You really think Villager can do that safely for 4 minutes?
 

Unbounded

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Good points, I'll start revisions after classes today. This actually makes it much easier to test hazards.
If the hazards in question do turn out to be random what do you guys think will be the best way to determine if they can still be utilized?
Actual match testing.

Gather a bunch of videos of people playing on them and then come to a consensus as to whether or not said hazards are significantly disruptive at high level play.
 

Gam3rALO

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Yoshi Island Brawl
Battle Field
FD (Any Version)

Are probably the most likely ones, but I wouldn't argue with other fair stages for a tourney list. Just NOT stages that do damage of any sort.
 
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Piford

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I don't agree with this. Matches shouldn't be determined by the stage, only on skill of the players. Yes I wish there were more competitive stages in this game, but there isn't.
Yoshi Island Brawl
Battle Field
FD (Any Version)

And can someone tell me if there is any difference, besides looks, in the FD stages.
Some have walls and some float. Arena Ferox has a pillar. And there are way more than 3 viable stages in the new game. Stages like Prism Tower will probably effect the players less than Yoshi's Island, since it has the fly guys that can block projectiles. We're trying to make a larger stage list that consists of the stages that will still determine who the better player is.
 
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Gam3rALO

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Some have walls and some float. Arena Ferox has a pillar. And there are way more than 3 viable stages in the new game. Stages like Prism Tower will probably effect the players less than Yoshi's Island, since it has the fly guys that can block projectiles. We're trying to make a larger stage list that consists of the stages that will still determine who the better player is.
Oh, thanks. Didn't notice Prism Tower. Cool!
 

Piford

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Oh, thanks. Didn't notice Prism Tower. Cool!
There are a lot of other stages that look good too. Arena Ferox is like the new Pokemon Stadium. Tomodachi Life is just 4 horizontal platforms. Reset Bomb Forrest has one timed hazard that has little knock back and deals only 12% damages, with a destructible wall that takes one hit to break. Once you start being more open, you can see that a lot of the stages aren't as bad as they first appear.
 

TheMasterDS

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Also Jungle Japes. There's no swimming this time so it shouldn't be too bad. Worst that can be said of it without swimming probably will be match up related stuff which is why it'd be a counter pick I'd imagine.
 

Unbounded

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I don't agree with this. Matches shouldn't be determined by the stage, only on skill of the players. Yes I wish there were more competitive stages in this game, but there isn't.
Yoshi Island Brawl
Battle Field
FD (Any Version)

And can someone tell me if there is any difference, besides looks, in the FD stages.
Looks like you've already been responded to, but I just wanted to add that realistically speaking the stage is always going to be a factor in who wins. There's also things such as characters where even if two players are somehow of equal skill, (by whatever arbitrary measure of skill we may choose), character A may still have an advantageous matchup against character B. Moreover character A may be better on flat stages such as final destination, while character B may have a more advantageous position on battlefield. Character C may be able to stand a chance if there's a ton of ledges available, while character D may be horrible on every stage except ones like FD and BF!
 

Gam3rALO

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Looks like you've already been responded to, but I just wanted to add that realistically speaking the stage is always going to be a factor in who wins. There's also things such as characters where even if two players are somehow of equal skill, (by whatever arbitrary measure of skill we may choose), character A may still have an advantageous matchup against character B. Moreover character A may be better on flat stages such as final destination, while character B may have a more advantageous position on battlefield. Character C may be able to stand a chance if there's a ton of ledges available, while character D may be horrible on every stage except ones like FD and BF!
I should edit it. I mean gimmicks of stages shouldn't affect the outcome. I understand, for example, Duck hunt dog is better at BF than FD.
 

Delzethin

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I should edit it. I mean gimmicks of stages shouldn't affect the outcome. I understand, for example, Duck hunt dog is better at BF than FD.
But we're here to argue that a handful of "stage gimmicks" affect strategy and matchups in a way that enriches competitive play instead of unfairly skewing or singlehandedly deciding matches. What we need to figure out is which stages do unfairly skew matchups or whose hazards determine results more than the players' skill, and which are actually pretty reasonable.

We just don't see the need to make a knee-jerk reaction and ban all but three stages from the very beginning. That would definitely cause more harm than good.
 

Gam3rALO

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But we're here to argue that a handful of "stage gimmicks" affect strategy and matchups in a way that enriches competitive play instead of unfairly skewing or singlehandedly deciding matches. What we need to figure out is which stages do unfairly skew matchups or whose hazards determine results more than the players' skill, and which are actually pretty reasonable.

We just don't see the need to make a knee-jerk reaction and ban all but three stages from the very beginning. That would definitely cause more harm than good.
Yea I understand that. Those three are the obvious ones
 

Boss N

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Hey I'm still somehow alive! So for testing hazards the general consensus seems to be this:

Whoever wishes to participate will engage in at least 5 games on one stage with a different person each time, and record the match. Then we all review the footage everyone has gathered, or the person who recorded describes their general experience. If incidents had occurred then they must describe how many games it has happened to them out of their total. If it is something that's happening to everyone then the stage can be considered ban-worthy due to it's hazards that unfairly skews the match arbitrarily and abruptly deciding matches, instead of enriching the competitive environment.

This good? If yes then I'll add it to the final draft of the testing procedures which I'll put on the OP.

For circle camping, isn't it possible for some characters to circle camp on a lot of stages, like Villager? He can basically use his Up-B to circle around every stage that has a floating platform.
Villager can pretty much circle camp almost anyone with that, I was playing the demo with a friend and after getting a kill I just used that to avoid him the rest of the match because he was playing Link. & This was FD :laugh: (also I got a not-chaingrab on him :joyful:)
Hence why the thoroughness of the testing in that area since certain match ups are naturally able to do this more than others, no matter the environment. Also I should note that a control test should be done on FD so we have a solid comparison to use.

Lastly, since the game is ALMOST HERE@!!!!!@!@!2121@!@!@!@!11!!!!!
This thread is going to be a place to present any evidence and findings and discussing what they indicate, so anyone who wishes to participate can go ahead and show their stuff on the thread.
 

BRoomer
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Again I invite anyone who wants to try and blast zone camp me to message me so I can prove just how wrong you are.
 

Banjodorf

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Honestly the current "top player" approach to stage selection really bothers the **** out of me. I know it's probably habit, but they've had the game for just a couple weeks, and most people don't have the game at all yet.

I already hear stuff like "Oh, Arena Ferox is banned." and I'm like are you ****ing kidding me? One of the most PS1-like stages in the game? And I've seen Lumiose used in tournaments, and it worked perfectly fine. Honestly not many of the stages have incredibly intrusive hazards, except maybe Balloon Fight? Mushroomy? Honestly I'd have to get my hands on the game to really judge, but this is just from what I've watched (albeit alot) of.

Stuff like the Shy Guys on Rainbow Road shouldn't really be a problem. People are going into this with too much of a Brawl/PM mindset.

A more open (doesn't need to be all or almost all of them) stage list is also more likely to bring more people into the scene. No player who isn't completely numb to it already is going to be wow'd by the fact that most matches are played on FD/Battlefield. Yeck.
 

Unbounded

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Honestly the current "top player" approach to stage selection really bothers the **** out of me. I know it's probably habit, but they've had the game for just a couple weeks, and most people don't have the game at all yet.

I already hear stuff like "Oh, Arena Ferox is banned." and I'm like are you ****ing kidding me? One of the most PS1-like stages in the game? And I've seen Lumiose used in tournaments, and it worked perfectly fine. Honestly not many of the stages have incredibly intrusive hazards, except maybe Balloon Fight? Mushroomy? Honestly I'd have to get my hands on the game to really judge, but this is just from what I've watched (albeit alot) of.

Stuff like the Shy Guys on Rainbow Road shouldn't really be a problem. People are going into this with too much of a Brawl/PM mindset.

A more open (doesn't need to be all or almost all of them) stage list is also more likely to bring more people into the scene. No player who isn't completely numb to it already is going to be wow'd by the fact that most matches are played on FD/Battlefield. Yeck.
Does mushroomy kingdom even have hazards? I figured it was just banned in brawl due to the whole chaingrabbing walkoff thing, since just camping the walkoff isn't exactly the most viable strategy due to it being a moving stage.
 

BRoomer
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mushroomy has 0 random and 0 hazards. The moving nature of the stage makes camping difficult too. Ban it.
 

Banjodorf

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Well, now that you say that, and the fact that infinites are gone, honestly the only reason I see Mushroomy as "banned" is tradition. Make that **** legal!
 

Piford

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I believe Mushroomy Kingdom was banned in brawl because the stage moved to quickly to allow fluid combat, all the ledges are ungrabable, and the ceiling on 1-2 (now gone). I don't think the first to problems are resolved in Smash 4, and the changes in Smash 4 don't really change how we would look at that.
 

Unbounded

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I believe Mushroomy Kingdom was banned in brawl because the stage moved to quickly to allow fluid combat, all the ledges are ungrabable, and the ceiling on 1-2 (now gone). I don't think the first to problems are resolved in Smash 4, and the changes in Smash 4 don't really change how we would look at that.
Yeah, I was just looking this up actually.

Via smashwiki:
smashwiki said:
Side-scrolling, stage moves too fast, underground's ceiling, ledges are not grabbable
Any way we can compare the speed of Mushroomy Kingdom to the speed of brawl, and have we gone ahead to check if the ledges yknow, work?

Also I coulda sworn in the 1-2 version there were grabable ledges, I'll need to do some digging.
 
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