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Advice. ~4/16/10

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
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Location
Mos Eisley
Vs puff advice.

Never ever try to shieldgrab jiggs, it just doesnt work lol and even if it did you have almost NO followups from grab. you got caught by silly little retreating nair-->move a few times cuz u tried to sheild grab the nair lol.

I wouldnt recommend jumping out of sheild with dair and such to chase a jiggs. Like for example if you're on a platform and she bairs/fair your sheild, dont just blindly jump out trying to dair her cuz she can just toss out another one out and catch you out of your jump and then you're screwed. this is especially true of fair cuz it very little cool down lag. a lot of times you took 2-3 aerials because you tried to hop out of sheild on a platform and just get hit by her stupid aerials. Its probably better to wavedash backwards out of shield and go from there. Or if you're absolutely sure dair will hit then knock yourself out.

Try not to ever aerial the top of her sheild with dair or anything. What a lot of falcos do is that they hit the top of the sheild with a dair or something then try to fastfall l-cancel to shine, but get sheild grabbed then upthrown and rested because their DI sucked cuz they were trying to fastfall. focus on doing late low aerials into her sheild its safer, and if she starts to grab you on the way up you have a much better chance to DI it.

You should uptilt way more. you like, never do it . uptilt is beautiful against jiggs cuz it has massive range and can hit her out of her bair/fair walls. its also much better for comboing than shine should it land. one good/safe strat is to do fly by aerials through the sheild and then uptilt because if she tries to jump out and punish it will hit her and you can combo.

At 0 or non kill percents when she misses a rest or you DI it so u can come back and punish, instead of charging fsmash, you can do dair->dair->tech chase dair or fmsash or lasergrab or whatever you want. in fact you should get more aggresive with stringing dair into more dairs at low percent in general.

look for oppotunities to land Dtilt kills. Its by far your earliest killer on most stages. You can try CCing near the ledge when she's on it and hope she rises up with a fair or something you can dtilt punish. its risky though. You could also go laser->dtilt or dtilt vs her sheild when you know it's not at full strength cuz that move pokes sheilds well.

Other than that, you didnt do too bad, overall you seem like a better player than the jiggs you just seem very unconfortable with the matchup. when all else fails you can just sit on the highest platform and dair camp, jiggs is bad when you're above her. Hopes some of this helps.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
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Location
vegas baby
Awesome critique =) I read it all. All if it will help in the next MU for sure.

If i could give you some kudos I would<3
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
In the falcon matches it looks like you know what you're doing fighting falcon, I just noticed you have a little trouble turning your lasers around sometimes leaving you lasering backwards a couple times. Just work on being a little less rigid and that alone will improve your game dramatically. When you get tech chased you tend to air dodge several times in place. I used to and still sometimes do that, it's a sitting duck opening for getting grabbed. Try jabbing back to grab or reverse laser away from the falcon instead of air dodging.

You did well against puff, except he got the rests because you didn't DI away, if you don't DI to the left or right at all that's an automatic stock right there. Also, while it's healthy to laser the puff while he's in the air, when the puff is on the ground, i would try spaced back airs, he can't grab you if you ground tip him with bairs and you can escape or follow up and pillar by which time his shield might not be good enough to shield grab.

Nothing negative I can say about the falco dittos, but I need to see you fight a higher level falco before I judge how good you are in falco dittos, you seemed to overwhelm him.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Jun 26, 2007
Messages
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Mos Eisley
and i watched your fox vids too but didnt think i should have made another post in a serperate forum so just a few quick things here about fox vs jiggs:

be more campy, learn to short hop double laser or just get good at shl jman style and shoot her, the MU is much harder when you try to fight her straight up which is what you tried to do. shoot her as much as possible, and do cheap little flyby nairs and stuff till she's at killing percent, play extremely safe and gay.

should you ever land a dair, grab, dont shine, it leads to upthrow death combos.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
falcon is too easy with falco.

Laser to force him to approach, and to stuff his approach. Hit him with moves and do the same combo over and over. D-air him when he's off the stage.

jiggs is annoying as **** though. You have to laser camp them and b-air when they are too close. If they're on the ground, then do u-throw -> move. At higher percents, try to hit puff with a d-air and follow the tech. Her tech roll is bad, so f-smash is easy to hit.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Southampton, UK
sorta random but what do you guys do when a falcon just spam's SHFFLd nairs over you're head so they land a long way behind you? i generally up-smash but if they read it i get *****..
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Mos Eisley
laser their approach?
turnaround uptilt?
CC shine?
shiled->shine OOS?

i dunno seems like a pretty bad strategy to me.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
sorta random but what do you guys do when a falcon just spam's SHFFLd nairs over you're head so they land a long way behind you? i generally up-smash but if they read it i get *****..
Shoot them prior to their jump or during their jump so they can't dash jump Nair and get the momentum to land far away behind you.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
2,022
Location
Southampton, UK
laser their approach?
turnaround uptilt?
CC shine?
shiled->shine OOS?

i dunno seems like a pretty bad strategy to me.
CC shine and shield -> shine Oos both miss as they land too far behind

turnaround u-tilt i havn't tried but lasers they genereally just power shield 1 then havve time to basically be above my head by the time i fire a second laser
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
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^ thanks Dom hahah. didn't even know you had an account.

Anyways updated with new vids. moar advice pleez!
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
can you like indicate which videos are new in the first post so i can like watch the ones you most want advice on?

okay im watching the falcon ones. first vid:

:46 or so: I dont really like the utilt that was supposed to be. utilting falcon is a great option if you're behind him, but he could have shield grabbed you even if you executed correctly, so be wary of that

:51 you got scared and side dodged. you do this a few more times (i wont point them out); try to avoid it. it's okay very rarely, but easily punishable. once someone knows that's your reaction to being pressured, they'll destroy you for it.

:53 the nair to mess up his approach was nice, good prediction and followup

1:07 you're lasering pretty effectively. im not sure about that nair in general, cause i think a lot of CF's would have DD'd away or naired in place or something that would have ***** that, but against this guy the semi-aggressive nair to stop his approach was nice. he does then realize you're somewhat scared and knee you out of another laser, so try to be less predictable with your defensive options.

1:17 you dair right as he gets his invincibility frames. this seems trivial, but let me say something: I noticed you trying to be super fast and technical and getting punished for it throughout this video. timing is more important than speed in most cases, and this is one of them. you could have gotten to him in time to punish him if you had actually been quicker, but after you ha dalready FH'd and wavelanded, it was too late. you had to either predict tech in place and punish it at the right time, or get back to safety. I guess you hit at the right time if you were predicting missed tech, but he had like a full second to tech that, so you shouldn't have predicted that against competent opposition.

i know that you're supposed to get an opening and then **** from there, so anytrime you land a combo move like shine, you want to go get a nice combo off. however, if you land a shine and don't react properly, your opening is gone. trying to force it is likely to get you punished, so you should just look for the next opening instead of hoping your opponent gives you your opening back.

1:20 - 1:27 you put on a lot of pressure here and get some good hits in

1:31 be conscious of platforms; if you had been aware enough to shoot a higher laser here, you would have ***** him hard, but i imagine your thought process went 'missed tech. laser reset. shoot it low.' so you automatically did that. (i would definitely have messed it up too, it's a hard situation to adapt to, just saying.)

nice predict at 1:33. you tried to force it to be more than it was again, though. you didnt get punished, but you might have if he had reacted better. be careful!

1:41 that charge fsmash is beyond my comprehension. i would write it off as a technical error except you charge it. what were you predicting here?

1:48 another nair ****** him. if you play this guy a lot, i would say you should tell him to not get ***** by nair so much. it seems like every time he whiffs an attack, you sh nair him and he jumps into it and gets out prioritized. obviously this is a good read on your opponent, but there are a lot of falcons out there who will pick up on this and throw a retreating nair or something that will beat you, so dont let yourself rely on it working.


anyway my brains are dying so im not going to go through the rest in detail. here's the main things:

my heart weeps for the combos you missed, and most of the time you missed them by FHing out of shine. try to break that habit. against CF you should probably wavedash out of shine most of the time. you missed at least 3 combos by FHing. the thing is, it doesnt look like a tehcnical error, since once you got a combo going you usually got a decent amoutn out of it, it looks like you get scared and FH to avoid punishments.

you also get scared and side dodge way too much. basically, if you got a lot more confident, you'd pick the right option more of the time, since you look like you know it in a lot of these cases. just make sure you dont let CF's speed and **** get to you. especially on your last stock you were looking nervous.

obviously there were a few technical/spacing issues too... that's nothing i can help with though, just comes with practice.

however, when you got your opening and knew you had, you got some good combos in, and you had a bunch of good reads on your opponent, and your edgeguards were accurate and effective. your lasering was also nice; it threw off his options but you didnt rely on it, which is good. i'd say laser a little more than you did, but that might just be a stylistic thing. you only lasered once when it was a really bad idea, and the rest of your lasers had purpose, so that was good. you have a pretty strong game, you just need to clear up a few things that mostly look nerves-related.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
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Thanks for all that :D the mising shine combos is nerve related i guess. still loosening up when i'm not playing at home with friends.

Also they're all knew except where it says 'older~' and all below. so anything.

oh didn't read that correctly, NO i never purposely FH out of shine, it's just a tech error.
 

Deathgazer

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
534
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England Milton Keynes
movement advice, try waveshining onto platforms and from there waveshine onto other platoforms, youl find chasing/ comboing much much faster and easier. you can practice on BF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXS-7WFwHsM
you kinda get the idea if you watch like 3 mins of it.

once you get it down, you can shine someone from one side and move to all the platforms really easily so whereever they DI you can chase them with no problem
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
Thanks for all that :D the mising shine combos is nerve related i guess. still loosening up when i'm not playing at home with friends.

Also they're all knew except where it says 'older~' and all below. so anything.

oh didn't read that correctly, NO i never purposely FH out of shine, it's just a tech error.
no prob. and if that's just tech error, my bad. just calm down and do what you know is right :)


i watched the shiek matches. you played pretty well in the fox one, and i dont really want to get into fox critique here anyway. stay away from the ledge, though! you got punished for being near the ledge.

in the falco v sheik match at :31 and 2:20 you utilt in front of someone's shield again.

you also got punished for just being willign to play near the edge. against characters that lose to you on stage but edgeguard you really well (all of them), you want to avoid being in that situation. it's too high risk/low reward.

i also saw you fsmashing people's shields at least twice. you shouldnt throw out fsmashes with falco unless you're 100% sure they'll hit or they're unpunishable.

against puff: you obviously mostly know the matchup. two things stand out: when you're gonna challenge her moves, use utilt or bair. sometimes nair or ftilt or something will work, but dair almost never will.
the other thing is: shine should be used for two things in this match: not getting shield grabbed, and hiting when it is the only move that will connect. otherwise, utilt is better. if i land behind puff's shield i usually utilt instead of shining bc she can't shieldgrab me and if it lands i'll get a dair off. (it also kills puff earlyish: around 150 on FD. if you get a puff up to like 125-130%, she's giong to be looking for a rest, so you can just laser her up to 150 and then shine her.)

FH triple lasers dont help anything. they're ok when she's trying to recover just to annoy her or whatever, but stick to grounded lasers. not that you did this much, just saying you did a few times and it's not a good habit in this matchup.

in general: your lasering increases dramatically when you're on your last stock or you're just down. if that style of play gets you back in the lead, you should probably play like that even when you're winning. play to win, son.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
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Jul 24, 2007
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vegas baby
yeah death that's actually a really really good idea. i'm just gonna overall practice it on all the stages since timing is gonna be different with each platform. don't incorporate dairs into the practice right? just waveshine all over?

also foxlisk, the jiggs matches are pretty much the day i actually picked up fox lol. cause then after losing against jiggs/hating the falcojiggs MU, i started using my ugly fox that day and won my tournament set against thatjiggs. since then i play fox vs jiggs and do the matchup pretty well. i usually will never play falco vs jiggs but obviously it's good information incase i have to via CP. or something.

learned some new **** though. didn't realize utilt infront of someone is a bad idea, i see it clearly now :D

Thanks again, helps alot. =D
 

Deathgazer

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
534
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England Milton Keynes
yer timing is a little differently but only DL64 platforms have the largest difference. Just practice getting to different platfors, like when you wavedash off a platform, make sure you fast fall it then waveshine onto the lower platform.

You can put dairs in but youl just have to L cancel everytime you land on a platform and there are more chances of messing up/ getting slower. I find waveshining onto lower platforms my quickest and accurate way.

also try doing the shines nearer to the platforms so you can waveshine onto them quicker.
I used to find it hard pressing the R quick enough for waveshine really close to the platforms so try using the Tip of the index finger to press the R because it presses it much quicker lol.

When you get all that down, youl just have to think of the quickest way to attack them aerials
 

Deathgazer

Smash Ace
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Messages
534
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England Milton Keynes
when you try to do lasering with a platform stage (BF or something)
(From the ground under the first level platforms)
try to do a full jump => first laser => Fast fall second laser. =>land on left/right platform so when you land you can isai drop and laser underneath the platform aswel. imo this is the best form of lasering on 3 platform stages cos you cover all three levels of platforms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1hrE5jFVkg&feature=related
like around 0:16 you acn see the lasering on platforms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ik3Kd28D0&feature=related
1:50 with laser pressuring



when then opponent is on ground level near the center of stage (or further away), and youre near the edge, you can reverse waveshine onto the nearest first level platofrm and laser when you waveshine off the edge and it automatically turns you around (providing you laser fast enough) you could easily lead that to a grab or something. Id advise you to use this when theyre at a distance.

Same situation but if theyre fairly close to you, i would reverse waveshine onto platform drop under platform and do a bair. its harder for the to attack you when youre above them and theyre less likely to think youl go that way. but i wouldnt advise you to do this against marths or characters with long reach.
If theyre standing under the same platform 1st level platform as you and on the ground (standing next to you), you can do the reverse waveshine onto platform. theyl wither shield on the spot or roll away. If they stay in their shield, you can drop and dair meaning youl land behind them and theyre open to attack. if they roll away you bair because theyl roll into the right position.

I guess you have to reply on your reactions to decide which one to do. and make sure you can do it consistantly before using it in games properly because it all happens pretty quickly. and if you mess up and land near them, you can spot dodge and hope they miss the grab or shine and aerial away or something.

It also depends on their percentage but most of the time if theyre close to me, i would use dair when theyre on a lower percentage cos you can shine and chase them up with your platform games. Try not to overuse it though or theyl figure it out and try to counter it.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
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Jul 24, 2007
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vegas baby
That first paragraph cleared up alot for me :D for some reason i just assumed i ddn't have time to fastfall the second lazr, and just stuck with the wrong way. I like your waveshine techniques :D they're tricky

i do try alot of the waveshine platform landing bair stuff but i sware it always leads to getting read and grabbed :/ then again that's more likely on a higher platform and it's not always when they're close enough. i'll try it out =D
 
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