Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Spelt]

one thing i feel is worth noting, the increased shield knockback makes a few more attacks safe on block, IDK exactly who is affected by this, but its a big enough difference to keep in mind

This is why peach is top tier in 1.1

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lmao guys jumping the gun so badly! make up your mind in the beginning of this thread you guys said that peach was getting nerfed now you say she is top tier? see you guys need to do more testing before opening mouths about how ppl will be nerfed. Testing testing and moar testing peepz lol

btw ness is not low tier lmao "face palm".

 

[solecalibur]

Never the less he will be nerf'd pretty badly and his best approach by air is easily SDI'able (in theory)

I still dont see how my point doesnt stand?

 

[SuSa]

Wait, this effects shieldlag?

Is Snake's ftilt safe on block now? hahahaha...

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Ness's Fair feels weird with 1.1. Idk how, it doesn't like to link. Backthrow is beast though.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Wait, this effects shieldlag?

Is Snake's ftilt safe on block now? hahahaha...

talk about something else that doesn't regard towards snake 24/7? jeez lol

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I think Marth is the only one that D3 cant grab , I know falco loses a couple people to CG and I think pika can CG also



If everything is so easy to SDI , Ness is getting nerf'd pretty badly

marth yes

Pika still has his fthrow CG the damage is only halfed, but his dthrow CGs have been nerfed pretty heavily on some characters like falco

if falco/pika have ground release or air release chain grabs, those will still work as intended

 

[Diabolique]

Similar to Ness, Zelda will get a huge hit if the change is made. She'll KO earlier but when you lose two of her more solid KO options (Fsmash, Usmash) and when you can't use those moves to their full effect she won't be racking up damage anytime soon and she'll lose a bunch of options overall. Din's Fire is s till horrible, and her Nair (which isn't SDI-able in 1.0) might even be SDI-able in 1.1.

For me this idea seems like a " Make a majority of the cast a little more balanced/viable but completely nerf the rest" and that doesn't sound like a good idea. (to me anyways)

But who knows? Maining the worst character in the game in this setting might be fun.

 

[SuSa]

talk about something else that doesn't regard towards snake 24/7? jeez lol

See: Important Current Metagame Thread dealing with Grabs which is being mostly hidden due to this thread always being on the home page

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Let me just say that I think change is a bad thing. Brawl is really only two years old. It is long enough to say that nothing different is likely to ever be discovered, however, it seems short enough that there is still much development going on at the match-up level. Sorry to bring up Snake again, but it fits the example nicely.

I recall arguing with people on how Snake's Ftilt is supposedly safe on shield due to the threat of the 2nd hit. However, we now all know that it really is not that safe. The distance between the two hits is large enough to be able to grab snake out of it or something else. The other things is due to the relatively new people to this game, many skills are still being developed. Many things we thought were likely not easily done are to be considered easy to do tomorrow as everyone gets better at the game.

However, adding a 1.1 apprently changes the game so much that we would need to spend another year long time period to rediscover all of this stuff and to properly incorporate it into out playing styles. Doing this appears to stall our development of the game rather than to proceed it forward.

SuSa, why is it that everytime I am trying to post to something, you are always ahead of me?

 

[JOE!]

so yeah, I feel that Olimar and Yoshi will both jump up with this implemented...

both rack damage VERY well, as well as have solid kill moves that kill that much earlier, with more hitstun to link into them


@above:

not alot, it just changes a bunch of little things, and makes everyone 10% weaker & stronger, whats so hard to get?

 

[SuSa]

Increased hitstun (and shieldstun apparently?), 20% difference in dying %'s, weakens most chaingrabs, messes with the total effect of Lucario's aura, and I'm sure theres more.

Increased hitstun is not a little thing.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Xeylode said, "change is a bad thing", lol I pretty much stopped reading from there

btw xeylode what grade do you have in history? "Change is a bad thing"

 

[SuSa]

Xeylode said I think change is a bad thing. L2Read. He was stating his opinion, then goes on to point out issues with this change.

 

[HeroMystic]

Let me just say that I think change is a bad thing.

Change is not good or bad, it is merely change. [/philosophy]

The Snake comparison was redundant, but at least it's correct. But let me ask this: When would be a good time to consider change? Two years is apparently not. Three? Four? When is it "too soon" and when is it "too late"?

EDIT: Wording.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Everyone is complaining that we would have to relearn the game. True, but it won't hurt. We will have to do it anyway in 2012 - 2013, assuming that is when the next smash comes out.

 

[SuSa]

That's the issue we have with banning MK.

First it was too soon and we should gather more data and such.

Now it's too late because he's to far implemented into the metagame and blah blah blah blah.

 

[solecalibur]

@ren If you keep shutting down ppls opinions about this your not going to get very far with this...
I agree we do need to test this , as many are but the last couple posts you made are not really helping...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Change is not good or bad, it is merely change. [/philosophy]

The Snake comparison was redundant, but at least it's correct. But let me ask this: When would be a good time to consider change? Two years is apparently not. Three? Four? When is it "too soon" and when is it "too late"?

EDIT: Wording.

change will only happen when a mass number of people come together with very strong motivation to get change done

if not change never happens and we're left with what we have now


let me ask the thread this, are you happy with where brawl, overall, stands now?

 

[HeroMystic]

That's the issue we have with banning MK.

First it was too soon and we should gather more data and such.

Now it's too late because he's to far implemented into the metagame and blah blah blah blah.

This is correct. That's why I emphasize on how people quickly say "It's too soon". Nothing ventured nothing gained and all that jazz.

 

[UberMario]

1.1 Sounds pretty reasonable to me, I've played with it in the past, but it's been a while so I can't say what changes.

IMO I think Lightning + Heavy Brawl should also be looked into, just sayin'. Combos would be easier in and infinites much more difficult.

inb4nou

 

[SuSa]

I didn't shut down an opinion, I showed the problem.

There is no inbetween, we jump from "too soon" to "too late". It's what we've done for any major issue as an excuse to not change it. People will either say it's too soon, or it's too late, depending on the issue and the person.

When MK was first being discussed to be banned, the excuse was it was too soon.
2nd discussion, still too soon.
3rd discussion, too late.
4th discussion, way too late.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

Xeylode said I think change is a bad thing. L2Read. He was stating his opinion, then goes on to point out issues with this change.

LEARN to spell
and anyway Susa whether he said he "thinks" or just stated the fact doesnt change the fact that its his opinion
LEARN to be a smart alec on another form

 

[Flutter NiTE]

1.1 Sounds pretty reasonable to me, I've played with it in the past, but it's been a while so I can't say what changes.

IMO I think Lightning + Heavy Brawl should also be looked into, just sayin'. Combos would be easier in and infinites much more difficult.

inb4nou

Lightning + Heavy Brawl? lolwut?

 

[solecalibur]

I didn't shut down an opinion, I showed the problem.

There is no inbetween, we jump from "too soon" to "too late". It's what we've done for any major issue as an excuse to not change it. People will either say it's too soon, or it's too late, depending on the issue and the person.

When MK was first being discussed to be banned, the excuse was it was too soon.
2nd discussion, still too soon.
3rd discussion, too late.
4th discussion, way too late.

See my edit
I was talking about renegade

 

[comboking]

Anyone wifi so I can do some testing? This idea sounds great.

 

[UberMario]

EDIT: @ Uber
Heavy mode, MK/Kirby dthrows become infinites practically...

But when combined with Lightning mode it could become much more difficult to time.

Actually, I'm going to go see how DI'able some of the current infinites are in Heavy + Lightning mode.

Lightning + Heavy Brawl? lolwut?

You know, the special options you can (albeit only offline), like speed, weight, camera mode, permanent status effects, ec.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

so instead of discussing when it would be too late to adopt 1.1, why dont we be pro-active and actually test **** out instead of typing on the fourms?

how about more results more videos, less

and theory crafting

 

[SuSa]

LEARN to spell
and anyway Susa whether he said he "thinks" or just stated the fact doesnt change the fact that its his opinion
LEARN to be a smart alec on another form

Wow, you didn't even understand my post at all.

He stated his opinion, that he thinks change is a bad thing. (for the community)

He then goes on to list arguments and facts to support his opinion.


An example of what he did, because you're apparently not able to understand:

I think cutting trees is bad. (for the enviroment, let's give this a context)

*gives supporting evidence*

 

[JOE!]

so, anyone up for more testing? (unfortunatley it'd have to be lolfi >.> )

 

[Flutter NiTE]

if i was home, i would be testing with you JOE!. I've been testing this for 10+ hours already, its defidently an amazing idea and SHOULD be implimented

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol at this whole thing. Everyone is taking that first line out of context. The context of that statement is that I think changing the damage ratio is bad for the community. I see no reason why you all have to start jumping to the extreme of other issues where "change is bad" is proved false. I am talking about that phrase in regards to brawl, and nothing else. Change was good for humanity, but I am not talking about humanity, only brawl. Stay on topic people.

 

[SuSa]

I already ninja'd you on that Xeylode. He apparently doesn't realize how persuasive essays are written.

 

[HeroMystic]

change will only happen when a mass number of people come together with very strong motivation to get change done

if not change never happens and we're left with what we have now


let me ask the thread this, are you happy with where brawl, overall, stands now?

This is true. It's how Brawl+ started, but as said before it's a modded game, so it's a bane for competitive legitimacy. However, it had really strong support for it's time.

I'm rather neutral with Brawl, mainly because I don't have a strong presence in the tournament scene, but I'm always open to make Brawl a better game. If something as simple as a 1.1 damage Ratio change can make Brawl 10x better, then why the hell not?

Lightning + Heavy Brawl? lolwut?

Heavy Brawl isn't far-fetched, but Lightning Brawl feels kinda shoddy to me.

I'd test things, but my Wii bricked awhile back. So stuck playing Starcraft II and *****ing checking on progress here.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

yea i agree, im not some shining star myself but my main beef with hacking for a better brawl was simply just that. Hacking it. I hacked 2 wiis and it took 12 hours hacking them both.

Spoiler

im very cautious and careful when i modded them as i really dont want to pay to have them un-bricked >.>

i too would like to see brawl better. Yea its not gonna fix everything, and not everyone will be pleased with it. But if its more funnier and better in the eyes the vast majority then im all for it


and before people start complaining about my main, im not in it for DDDs benefits necessarily.

 

[Kiru]

I played a few matches with CPU's on DR 1.1, and my marth can combo alot better than before due to the hitstun. I can't combo for as long, and matches are shortened, but it is alot more fun.

Im testing with a few of the characters thought to be nerfed, and peach is still pretty good, just really different from the peach metagame.

Sheik is sadly a character nerfed by this change in alot of regards. Juggling wont last nearly as long, neither will she.

Bowser is a little better IMO due to quicker KO's while still being able to live for high percents, plus this hitstun adding to the fun.

Ike has alot of new jab follow-ups, and It does not hurt to add in the increased launch distance from a semi charged Fsmash.

I can't play ice climbers at all with 1.0 or 1.1, so I sadly cannot judge the nerf or buff on that. Most chain grabbing characters will have to adapt a bit, but it won't take too long to learn to delay an action by a few frames.

I like this idea and I'm all for it. It makes alot of low tier characters and a few higher tier characters closer to mid tier, which is what we are aiming for in a fighting game.

 

[Ripple]

HUGE UPDATE

from the testing I've done I've found out a couple things.

1. Falco can not chain grab ANYBODY (not even D3) more than 2-3 times. up-smash will kill around 135% and f-smash around 110%

2. Wario can still chain grab DK but only until 60%. (haven't tried the others due to not knowing when he can)

3. Falcon's nair will almost never connect past 15%. Jab also send the opponent more upwards; they can sometimes jump out of gab range if they are a lightweight.

4. SHIELD STUN IS NOT TRULY AFFECTED BY THE 1.1 RATIO! (the most it could possibly add is 1 frame of shield stun) . SHIELD PRESSURE IS AFFECTED THOUGH. MOVES WILL PUSH YOU BACK EVER SO SLIGHTLY FARTHER WHEN THEY HIT YOUR SHIELD

5. kirby's f-throw >up air combo still works even at %s above 0.

6. Jab Locks still exist

7. snake effectively hard counters ness and lucas.

8. sheik can gimp effectively.

9. characters such as kirby and wolf have almost no differences when switched to 1.1

10. bowser is still really bad.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

HUGE UPDATE

from the testing I've done I've found out a couple things.

1. Falco can not chain grab ANYBODY (not even D3) more than 2-3 times. up-smash will kill around 135% and f-smash around 110%

2. Wario can still chain grab DK but only until 60%. (haven't tried the others due to not knowing when he can)

3. Falcon's nair will almost never connect past 15%. Jab also send the opponent more upwards; they can sometimes jump out of gab range if they are a lightweight.

4. SHIELD STUN IS NOT AFFECTED BY THE 1.1 RATIO! (if it is, it is negligable) . SHIELD PRESSURE IS AFFECTED THOUGH. MOVES WILL PUSH YOU BACK EVER SO SLIGHTLY FARTHER WHEN THEY HIT YOUR SHIELD

5. kirby's f-throw >up air combo still works even at %s above 0.

6. Jab Locks still exist

7. snake effectively hard counters ness and lucas.

8. sheik can gimp effectively.

9. characters such as kirby and wolf have almost no differences when switched to 1.1

10. bowser is still really bad.

Very good job Ripple, very good job.

 

[DeadPool]

Brawl 1.1 is very interesting because i believe it will lead to a healthier metagame
it may be a sudden change but should be taken into consideration but will most certainly not have to take another two years of data gathering or as some say here "work"(pitiful)
anyway as i read through these posts, i see that Susa may be the arrogant one here

and Xeylode, there is not much of the game left to "proceed" with anyway. What has the community not analyzed, in its 3 years of data, that needs to be proceeded with??

Susa, your recent post said, "I already ninja'd you on that Xeylode. He apparently doesn't realize how persuasive essays are written. " about the whole subject of opinions
well forum discussions arent usually written in essay format or else your "L2Read" would've gotten an F--
along with that, if Xeylode was speaking for the community, he wouldve said so
and who here represents the community?? i dont think anyone has said you(Susa) or Xeylode does

 

[SuSa]

We don't represent the community, we were speaking in context of the community.

Read my example:

I think cutting trees is bad. (For the enviroment)

*gives supporting details*

Am I representing the enviroment? Not at all.

Isn't to far of a stretch from:

I think change is bad. (For the community*

*gives supporting details*

Also each forum post is different, not every single one is a persuasive writing - that's why you have to read it. Simply stopping at the first line can lead to misconceptions and entire misunderstandings. Which is exactly what happened. That is ignorance at best.

EDIT:
Although you directed your point on the game proceeding, how are you sure it has hit a standstill? If Science stopped researching Cancer after 10 years of not having any real progress, should they just stop and move on? New things are being discovered, even if it takes a large amount of time to do so.