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A Very Sensitive Topic

Do you think that fox and falco should truly be part of the Project: M roster and receive changes?


  • Total voters
    116

JOE!

Smash Hero
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Falco's Fair was probably a bad example overall but to me it seemed like a glazed over detail that they instead did with Ganon: his moves all have new aesthetics but with the same/nearly the same properties as Melee (give or take with say Utilt and Side B). Falco's Fair seemed like a similar case as they were both Multihitting moves that hit relatively the same area in both games, so sue me :p

My argument being that people seem to have knee-jerk reactions to go away from brawl as far as possible when there could be things from it on the vets that work, much like with Ganon. On top of this, the Brawl Cast being -radically- changed at times seems a bit weird to me in that "vet" characters then can't really get any goodies like new mechanics either (for the most part).

I blame only having bits of time in-class to post thoughts lol
 

UMR | donmk

RIP PM
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To be honest, I've never seen spacies as a huge problem in either Melee or Project M. They're good, but they're not so good that they're unbeatable.

I agree with 1MachGO in that having the melee top 8 practically unchanged allows for an easier way to balance the game. The issue is that a lot of people either want change because "Project M isn't Melee" or because "I'm sick of seeing Fox and Falco always being top tier".

The argument that Project M isn't Melee is true on its face. However, the environment was changed to replicate Melee's in every possible way (gravity, hit stun, Melee stage boundaries). Porting the Melee top 8 into a Melee environment and then throwing characters at them who have ~2 years of meta game development (which itself has been stunted by changes to physics engines and characters themselves) will obviously favour the top 8 in the short term. Lets see where the game is in 3 or 4 years time before making rash decisions. If you think that's a long time, then consider (as an example) Jigglypuff in Melee. It took 3 years for people to consider her 'viable' and almost 6 years for her to be considered 'pretty damn good'. What changed so much over that time period to make Jiggs competitive? The meta-game. There were no buffs or nerfs, simply as new tactics evolved and old ones faded away, new characters came into the spotlight.

Now, this might or might not happen with Project M, but I think that a reserved approach is much better than an approach of 'change it now, its is currently too good.' I think to this end, the PMBR has done really well. Looking at tournament results, the only spacie players who have been consistently winning are Mew2King (who could probably win with anyone because Mew2king) and DEHF (who I admit I know little about). At the end of the day, Project M is focused on the competitive aspects of the game when it comes to balance. To say that spacies need to be changed seems like change for the sake of change, which more often that not screws around with balance far too much.

Quick edit for some input on Joe's post.

The issue with changing moves on melee vets to brawl moves is that in the case of the top characters, many people believe that the overall design of those characters is very good. If you change multiple moves, you change the overall design of the character, and I think the pmbr has more important things to do than redesign already well designed characters. Changing only one move leads to one of the following situations:

1. The move is aesthetically different but functions the same. Why change it then? The hitboxes will likely look wonky.

2. The move is overall better than the one it replaces. Do the top characters really need improvements?

3. The move is overall worse than the one it replaced. See my post above, but tl;dr be careful with nerfs.

4. The move is not overall better, but is better in certain situations while worse in others. This requires actually looking and seeing what the move does, but the question is basically does the new move mitigate some weakness, or does it just give another option in situations where others are already available? Which is better often depends on the character, but in terms of spacies, I don't think they need more options nor do they need weaknesses mitigated.
 
Last edited:

I Dair You

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I would be all for switching out some of Fox/Falco's moves for their better brawl counterparts. (Fox's Brawl Fair and Bair, Falco's Brawl Dthrow, Uptilt, Nair, and the ability to double laser from a short hop). They really deserve a little Project M flavor because at the moment they are the least changed characters in the conversion from Brawl to P:M. If these changes were experimentally given to their moveset, it would definitely be refreshing. The obvious problem of course is that people want do be able to play spacies like Melee, but also want a new flavor to playing them. The proposed changes however, would make them even better than they already are, and the entire cast is basically molded around the spacies, and rebalancing is unlikely to happen.
 

UMR | donmk

RIP PM
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Boy the poll here aren't asking a loaded question at all.
Indeed. Especially the phrase "... should truly be a part of the Project: M roster...", implying that they aren't already. Which is kind of odd when you remember that one of the catalysts for Project M was a project to port Melee Falco into Brawl.

What if they cloned falco from his brawl from and put him as is on another character? Maybe give him a cool wavedash.
I think it's a fun idea, but unlikely due to the following reasons:

1. Clone slots are limited as they are, and I don't think many people are going to be fans of having the fourth Star Fox representative be another Falco (especially those who want Krystal)
2. The Character Select Screen would look kind of weird with two Falcos.
3. Some parts of Brawl Falco would be really broken in a competitive Melee environment (e.g. the down throw chain grab and the double lasers with proper hit-stun)

I think a good chunk of these posts are asking for changes for the sake of changes

Which is not what the rest of us are arguing about at all.
The reason that people here are asking for changes for the sake of it is because that is basically what the OP was about. There was a little bit tacked on about how the OP dislikes spacies being the best, but from what I understood, the OP was more complaining about how in each version of Project M, the Fox and Falco changes have boiled down to "More like Melee than before (except now with less shine invincibility)"

I agree that there needs to be a really solid discussion about the pros and cons of changing spacies from a competitive viewpoint, but the tone of the first post and the tone of the poll make this rather difficult to do here. Like it or not, those are the first two things people see when they come to this thread, so it sets the tone for the entire thread.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

Smash Champion
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I think it's a fun idea, but unlikely due to the following reasons:

1. Clone slots are limited as they are, and I don't think many people are going to be fans of having the fourth Star Fox representative be another Falco (especially those who want Krystal)
2. The Character Select Screen would look kind of weird with two Falcos.
3. Some parts of Brawl Falco would be really broken in a competitive Melee environment (e.g. the down throw chain grab and the double lasers with proper hit-stun)
I think he/she meant giving another star fox character (like Krystal) Falco's Brawl moveset.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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I think he/she meant giving another star fox character (like Krystal) Falco's Brawl moveset.
what exactly was cool about brawl falco besides a dthrow chainthrow, a spike, and double laser? I admittedly haven't watched too mcuh brawl falco footage but I remember his moves more or less.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

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what exactly was cool about brawl falco besides a dthrow chainthrow, a spike, and double laser? I admittedly haven't watched too mcuh brawl falco footage but I remember his moves more or less.
Why are you asking me this? I was explaining a miscommunication, doesn't mean I agree with what he said.
 

The_NZA

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>_> no reason. For some reason I thought you might know and I defaulted to quoting the last person in the conversation. I'm just asking more generally what was interesting about brawl falco.
 

QQQQQQQ7777777

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>_> no reason. For some reason I thought you might know and I defaulted to quoting the last person in the conversation. I'm just asking more generally what was interesting about brawl falco.
oh, ok then. In my opinion, NOTHING! YAY!
 

Renji64

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Most of the brawl changes weren't benficial to the character i was so glad P:M changed falco back his playstyle was fun agian and less campy if falco is like brawl falco in 4 i'm dropping him and mario for good. Had enough of the flood had enough or crappy falco.
 

NWRL

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^ I'm basing my entire purchase on Captain Falcon being fixed. His Brawl appearance was a ****ing disgrace. Oh and I guess if Ike and Wolf get cut or not. But if they get cut and Falcon is godly I can overlook it. I won't like it, but I can overlook it.
 

TreK

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Besides his fair, Brawl's Falco also has a different nair, fsmash, shine and jab. Only the jab was ported to P:M (or rather, kept the same), even though it pales in comparison to its Brawl self because crouch canceling makes all jab combos worthless. It's easily in the top 3 of jabs in Brawl.

Not saying anything besides "I have a certain distaste for crouch canceling", btw. I was just answering that guy who asked "what's different about Brawl's Falco".
 

The_NZA

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Besides his fair, Brawl's Falco also has a different nair, fsmash, shine and jab. Only the jab was ported to P:M (or rather, kept the same), even though it pales in comparison to its Brawl self because crouch canceling makes all jab combos worthless. It's easily in the top 3 of jabs in Brawl.

Not saying anything besides "I have a certain distaste for crouch canceling", btw. I was just answering that guy who asked "what's different about Brawl's Falco".
but his nair and fair are pretty uninspired in Brawl...in one he just shakes his feathers everywhere and in the other, he's in a generic human drill, pikachu style. I dunno...I have no interest in playing a character like that as an added character to the PM roster. I'm suprised there are people who want something like that in this game.

That fsmash on the other hand was boss looking.
 

TreK

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The way I see it, Sakurai wanted him to "feel like a bird" with a showoff attitude to be true to the Falco from the Starfox games, rather than a Fox clone, which is a nice intention, even if you don't like the way it was handled. It's kind of like what the PMBR did with Diddy, which I dislike as a Brawl Diddy main, but I can still appreciate the touch.

And that fsmash... Well let's just say it doesn't just look cool x)
 

EdgeTheLucas

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I'm not sure, but I think he meant to say that, as of now, he considers Project M to be the unofficial Smash 4. The way the Brawl newcomers were changed so uniquely must've made him consider that--which seems like a compliment, actually--but he doesn't feel that way toward the melee veterans who received little to no change from their Melee counterparts.

I THINK that's what he meant to say. I'm not sure.
 

Xebenkeck

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It's why they're designed to way they are currently in 3.0 to begin with and why the stage boundaries were universally altered.
Don't ya think it's being a little silly to say, "lets not adjust the character for balance, lets adjust every stage because of him."

If your adjusting all the stages because of one character, I would suggest that the one character is the problem and not all the stages.
 

UMR | donmk

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Don't ya think it's being a little silly to say, "lets not adjust the character for balance, lets adjust every stage because of him."

If your adjusting all the stages because of one character, I would suggest that the one character is the problem and not all the stages.
The stage boundaries were adjusted because it favoured any character who's main killing moves killed off the top, not just Fox. They were not adjusted just for Fox, but for all of these characters. As Strong Bad said, the average stage ceiling height now matches Melee's average. It was done so that the entire stage list doesn't favour characters who kill off the top. This includes Squirtle, Lucas, Sheik (although she can kill off the sides as well), Snake (especially now he no longer has the missile), probably a bunch of others and, yes, Fox. It was not done just for one character. It was done so that characters who kill of the top don't have an artificial advantage over the rest of the cast because their preferred blast zone is easier to reach.

Or I'm wrong and it was just done 'because Melee'. Or even better, it was done just so that Fox is not as good, and all those characters who also kill of the top are just straight out of luck. Especially in the Fox match up, where literally the only thing that changes is that BOTH characters need a bit more percent before they can kill. Fox couldn't possibly be able to put on that extra damage relatively quickly, right guys?
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Probably the saddest thing about this topic is that a good portion of the voters probably don't even comment in the Project M forums, I bet.
 

MagnesD3

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The way I see it, Sakurai wanted him to "feel like a bird" with a showoff attitude to be true to the Falco from the Starfox games, rather than a Fox clone, which is a nice intention, even if you don't like the way it was handled. It's kind of like what the PMBR did with Diddy, which I dislike as a Brawl Diddy main, but I can still appreciate the touch.

And that fsmash... Well let's just say it doesn't just look cool x)
I love falco's forward smash from brawl I wish it were brought back :(
 

The_NZA

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Probably the saddest thing about this topic is that a good portion of the voters probably don't even comment in the Project M forums, I bet.
Nah. The saddest thing about this topic is that the choices are so disgustingly polarized that anyone with an opinion like "he's fine, just nerf usmash a bit" can't express themselves so the poll just filters the worst **** to the surface for us all to deal with. It's a reverse reddit.
 

W¡ndy

Smash Cadet
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Nov 26, 2013
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I think he/she meant giving another star fox character (like Krystal) Falco's Brawl moveset.
Nah. The saddest thing about this topic is that the choices are so disgustingly polarized that anyone with an opinion like "he's fine, just nerf usmash a bit" can't express themselves so the poll just filters the worst **** to the surface for us all to deal with. It's a reverse reddit.
lrn2readdisclaimer
 
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