A Very Sensitive Topic

[Mono.]

 

[Lamar Davis]

They betta not change mah baby.

 

[trash?]

I can't be arsed to argue anymore abt this, I just want PAL fox, PAL fox was fantastic why do folks hate PAL fox

not PAL falco though. well, maybe PAL falco assuming they then keep pillar dairs, the gap btwn NTSC combos and PAL combos on falco are too big for people to not get miffed when transferring

 

[W¡ndy]

Just cause something wont happen doesnt mean you can't discuss it.

See the movie 2012.
see sci-fi movies
see the phrase "what if"

a

This discussion has already been done to death. There's a thread with dozens of pages with dozens of posts each with a dozen paragraphs in many of said posts. Long story short, you're late to the party. I get the impression that you didn't already know this. Which is fine, not knowing that your thread is a waste of space until somebody points it out isn't your fault. Just don't be the guy that defends himself after somebody points out where he went wrong. It's stubborn with no purpose. If P:MBR has decided on any plans to change the spacies they would have done it by now. And they did actually. Small changes that are nonetheless there. Getting revamped is out of the question. Only brawl characters get that treatment so they can fit in the Melee environment. Melee characters do not. Even low tiers weren't revamped for the most part, they just got either big buffs to their existing tools or new tools that compliment their existing ones. This thread should be locked tbh.

didnt you read the first sentence that you quoted.

this isn't about whether or not they will be changed. its just to hear people opinions on the topic.
I don't really care weather or not they change them, I just think they should be changed (or at least one new thing), and I wyaiant to discuss my opinion.
If I was actually expecting this to influence the Backroom, I would have suggested some changes.

also, look at roy. They didn't completely change how he played, but the changes were enough for him to feel fresh, yet supply the same feel of playing roy.

 

[MLGF]

Oh, I thought this topic was about nerfs/buffs to the Melee characters.
Making them like their Brawl counterparts? How about no.
Now then...

 

[W¡ndy]

Oh, I thought this topic was about nerfs/buffs to the Melee characters.
Making them like their Brawl counterparts? How about no.
Now then...

it is about nerfs and buffs. discussing them, not proposing them

also, I'm jsut saying that it would only be fair on the player base as a whole (including casuals) to ahve some characters like thier brawl counterparts if they are going to keep some like their melee counterparts.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

it is about nerfs and buffs. discussing them, not proposing them

also, I'm jsut saying that it would only be fair on the player base as a whole (including casuals) to ahve some characters like thier brawl counterparts if they are going to keep some like their melee counterparts.

1) How can we discuss buffs and or nerfs if we do not propose buffs or nerfs to discuss?
2) The difference is, if we revert a character back to their brawl counterpart they will instantly become bottom tier because while Brawl is based around floaty, defensive gameplay, Melee (and in turn, Project M) is based around speedy, offensive gameplay. You can't mix those two things and have a good result.

 

[NWRL]

Fox and Falco aren't/shouldn't be immune to changes.

They just need to add the PAL changes to both of them and then go from there. Falcon lost stuff like his Raptor Boost ignoring projectiles, Shiek's dthrow isn't 100% like Melee. Fox and Falco lost invincibility on frame 1 on their shine, that's not even something that most players would notice.

Personally, I believe that them being top 2 in this game and melee says enough about their balance. They allow for a lot of creativity but they also stifle a good portion of the cast.

In terms of high tiers, we should be striving for clear strengths and clear weakness, Falcon is probably the perfect example of this. Being comboable and having a "poor recovery" aren't real weakness, especially when your recovery goes in 8 directions and you have two forms of recovery. Well, except for maybe Falco because his Firebird goes about 2 inches.

 

[MagnesD3]

Well I kinda wish some of the stuff that was in brawl that falco had was the same, such as forward smash, fair, and up tilt. I also would like for a character like marth to have his brawl shield breaker as well but I doubt either of these changes will happen, I'll admit im not the biggest fan of how some melee characters have been handled since they went and changed so many others but I know that if the PMBR thinks there is a problem later on in this games life im sure they will address said problem.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Any and every kind of subject or topic that could possibly be said about these two already has been stated and debated in this thread here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-fox-falco-change-discussion-please-read-1st-post.340338/

There is literally nothing else this new thread adds. Seriously, this is beating a dead horse at this point.

The PMBR has given some changes to them that give them less of an edge than before without making them horrible or completely reverting them to their less competent Brawl counterparts. Seriously, wanting Fox and Falco to be like their Brawl selves in P:M? Did you forget the name and purpose of this mod or something? It may not be a copy of Melee, but it is a sequel. Very often in fighting games, certain characters hardly receive any changes into the next iteration. Why? Because it was deemed unnecessary.

If they see a reason for any other nerfs or changes, they'll do them. It's why they're designed to way they are currently in 3.0 to begin with and why the stage boundaries were universally altered. It's always why Strong Bad made his marvelous post in the previous topic I mentioned. If they don't, then there probably wasn't a need for it and you might just need to improve. Things becoming stagnant isn't good but change isn't necessarily always a good thing either. Especially if it's too drastic.

tl;dr

Changing things to fix what's broken is fine, but changing things just for the sake of change, which sounds like what you really want, won't guarantee a positive result. It's a bad idea that could very easily backfire.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And that's my personal purply opinion on all of this. Bye. ¦D

 

[Iceman]

Just cause something wont happen doesnt mean you can't discuss it.

See the movie 2012.
see sci-fi movies
see the phrase "what if"


also, see metaknight. he was top tier. they changed him

also, just cause something is good, doesn't mean you cant change it.

In response to your last line, "also, just because something is good, doesn't mean you can't change it."
If something is admittedly good, then why do we need to change it?

 

[NightShadow6]

 

[Iceman]

it is about nerfs and buffs. discussing them, not proposing them

also, I'm jsut saying that it would only be fair on the player base as a whole (including casuals) to ahve some characters like thier brawl counterparts if they are going to keep some like their melee counterparts.

I can understand what you are saying, but it wouldn't exactly be fair would it. What if you look at it this way?
1. Every character from Brawl is in the game.
2. Project M is a mod that wanted to create a different game from Brawl that was also similar to Melee
3. For that reason every character, including Fox and Falco, have been changed from their Brawl counterpart
4. So no character is like their Brawl counterpart
5. And assuming that you consider fairness to be consistent with rules and logic
Therefore
5. This is discussion lacks any real weight because your problem can apply to every character in the game.
In your original post you said, "If they are kept the same, It's kind of unfair to the players who liked certain aspects of characters from brawl, but those characters were completely redone............reverting them back to their melee forms goes against one of the principles of Project:M; Not being a copy of melee." You are right Project M is not a carbon copy of Melee, but it is even more true that it is not a copy of Brawl. It is a new game that is trying to be more Melee than Brawl, so if you really want those Brawl aspects you can just play Brawl. The PMBR chose to recreate the Melee top tiers. If you want changes, then argue using balance not fairness. It's just a bad angle.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

You are right Project M is not a carbon copy of Melee, but it is even more true that it is not a copy of Brawl. It is a new game that is trying to be more Melee than Brawl, so if you really want those Brawl aspects you can just play Brawl.

if you really want those Brawl aspects you can just play Brawl.

you can just play Brawl.

just play Brawl.

...You know, I was done here, but I had to make a comment about this post. XD

Never once did I ever expect P:M, which always gets the "Just play Melee" line thrown at it as backlash, to turn things around and make people rightfully and successfully retort with "Just play Brawl". I don't know if we just came full circle or started a new one, but either way I honestly think that about wraps up this discussion. ¦D

/Thread

GGs

 

[NWRL]

Well with the PMBR adding in anti-spacie tools to a lot of movesets I think that speaks enough about their effect on the game. PMBR should add in the PAL changes and then look at additional changes from there if needed.

 

[Gust14]

I'll just state my opinion. I've watched (as a stalker mostly) this project since it started as the best psa ever (melee falco) and evolved to be the best smash mod ever.
After reading hundreds of pages of discution and endless arguments over everything in the game my feeling, the way I see the whole picture of PM, is tha it's all about making the sequel that melee never had as seen through the eyes of competitive players, wich means melee with more characters and balance (and online but thats inpossible to fix). And it has been succsefull in achieving that goal (to a reasonable extent), so I wouldn't be hopefull in they making radical changes to melee competitive-proven characters (top tiers) beacause thats not part of their vision and it isn't what their target audience expects (melee competitive players and melee comunity overall), that would be a diferent mod. And all this "melee-brawl fusion with a spin", I dunno where that came from but all they've kept from brawl is just there because it enriches some competitive aspect of melee in some way, but that's it. #MYOPINION #THEWAYISEEIT #+1TOALLTHEGIFSINTHISTHREAD

 

[Rᴏb]

Fox's usmash needs to change.
Fox's uair needs to change.
Falco's dair needs to change.
Falco's neutralb needs to change. (Doubt this last one will happen)

Stuff we already know.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Fox's usmash needs to change.
Fox's uair needs to change.
Falco's dair needs to change.
Falco's neutralb needs to change. (Doubt this last one will happen)

Stuff we already know.

I see you hate everything that makes characters good.

 

[Rᴏb]

I see you hate everything that makes characters toxic.

You're not seriously going to argue these moves need no changes, right?

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

You're not seriously going to argue these moves need no changes, right?

I'm not going to say they need no changes but I don't think they should be completely changed into something else.

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm not going to say they need no changes but I don't think they should be completely changed into something else.

Hey me too

 

[NWRL]

I'm not going to say they need no changes but I don't think they should be completely changed into something else.

I don't think he's saying that the moves should be changed into something else. Probably more along the lines of nerfing their knockback.

 

[The_NZA]

Falco might be alright in all honesty. I think the improved recoveries all around make him less of a threat since a falco advantage can change off of two or three misteps.

It's okay for a character's neutral game to involve smothering everyone else. I don't really see why that's any more of a problem than some characters being unedgeguardable (mewtwo).

 

[Bleck]

I think that, if anything, Falco's moveset should remain the same, but his animations should be changed. Not to match the Brawl animations, mind you, as that's presumably not feasible considering the huge differences, but some small things here and there to make Falco move in a way that's visually dissimilar to Fox would likely keep everyone happy.

 

[Blade-Fox]

I don't think anyone wants to completely change Fox/Falco's playstyles. Honestly, after seeing what PMBR did with Wolf alongside all the other characters, I'm really interested in seeing what Fox and Falco would look and play like.

Side Note: It'd be really great for the community if we could just come to grips with this issue. I mean honestly, say the spacies did change and were unviable and/or completely different from their original selves, they could always go back or change again.

 

[Rᴏb]

I just think Falco's dair hitbox lasting as long as it does is a bit ridiculous. And the hitstun of his lasers almost completely halts the pace of the game. Spamming lasers works and I hate that it does.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't think anyone wants to completely change Fox/Falco's playstyles. Honestly, after seeing what PMBR did with Wolf alongside all the other characters, I'm really interested in seeing what Fox and Falco would look and play like.

Side Note: It'd be really great for the community if we could just come to grips with this issue. I mean honestly, say the spacies did change and were unviable and/or completely different from their original selves, they could always go back or change again.

I don't think you understand the full implications of this. I, for the first time, was present at a PM tourney where a ton of melee folks participated and had a blast because 3.0 is so much closer at mirroring melee both in the camera and the collision data. Changing things drastically would terribly affect PM's rise in popularity.

 

[Blade-Fox]

I don't think you understand the full implications of this. I, for the first time, was present at a PM tourney where a ton of melee folks participated and had a blast because 3.0 is so much closer at mirroring melee both in the camera and the collision data. Changing things drastically would terribly affect PM's rise in popularity.

I am quite aware of how much Melee folks like how much PM mirrors Melee as I am one of them but I still think this is an issue that PMBR just needs to pull the trigger on because it's holding back Project M's potential. That being said, even if spacies remain the same for years to come, Project M has accomplished a lot and more than I think anyone could have hoped for even a short while ago.

 

[W¡ndy]

I don't think anyone wants to completely change Fox/Falco's playstyles. Honestly, after seeing what PMBR did with Wolf alongside all the other characters, I'm really interested in seeing what Fox and Falco would look and play like.

Side Note: It'd be really great for the community if we could just come to grips with this issue. I mean honestly, say the spacies did change and were unviable and/or completely different from their original selves, they could always go back or change again.

That side note sums up a lot of my thoughts.

Its not like if there was a game destroying issue (Or something causing MASSIVE negative feedback) They wouldn't put up a fix ASAP

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

That side note sums up a lot of my thoughts.

Its not like if there was a game destroying issue (Or something causing MASSIVE negative feedback) They wouldn't put up a fix ASAP

Well when they even changed fox and falco slightly they got the MASSIVE feedback you are talking about.

 

[W¡ndy]

That side note sums up a lot of my thoughts.

Its not like if there was a game destroying issue (Or something causing MASSIVE negative feedback) They wouldn't put up a fix ASAP

Edit: Being new to this community.......

I find it tragic how hypocritcal some people here are. They go on to a thread and say that its beating a dead horse.

if the thread is pointless, just check to see if someone has already said so, and leave it be. the more someone posts on it. the more the thread stays alive. if you think tis pointless, you obviously don't want the thread to stay alive


woooooops

I hit reply instead of edit.

 

[Phaiyte]

They actually have been changed significantly enough. It's not that big a deal.

 

[Phaiyte]

Fox and Falco lost invincibility on frame 1 on their shine, that's not even something that most players would notice.

Wolf also lost his shine invincibility, but you are very wrong either way. I feel the lost invincibility every day of my life. If you shine someone and you both get hit at the same time, in Melee that automatically means you wouldn't have been hit. It makes a massive difference in his ground and gimp game. It's also not even half of what was done. Lasers deal basically a little less damage and all kick type moves have less range, which is a direct nerf to nair shines in general. Shining in general is more strict for Fox as well because you can't just infinitely waveshine a significant percentage of the cast.

@ Rᴏb - Fox's USmash and Uair inherently work less well already because many stages have had their ceilings raised significantly in this patch.

Seriously I think some of you guys just like to watch yourselves type while bitching about nothing and not taking a small amount of time to review what you're talking about.

 

[NWRL]

Wolf also lost his shine invincibility, but you are very wrong either way. I feel the lost invincibility every day of my life. If you shine someone and you both get hit at the same time, in Melee that automatically means you wouldn't have been hit. It makes a massive difference in his ground and gimp game. It's also not even half of what was done. Lasers deal basically a little less damage and all kick type moves have less range, which is a direct nerf to nair shines in general. Shining in general is more strict for Fox as well because you can't just infinitely waveshine a significant percentage of the cast.

Notice how I said most players wouldn't notice it. Let's pull up a dictionary shall we.

most
mōst/
determiner & pronoun
determiner: most; pronoun: most

1. 1.
   superlative of many, much.
2. 2.
   greatest in amount or degree.
   "they've had the most success"
   • the majority of; nearly all of.
     "most oranges are sweeter than these"
     synonyms:nearly all, almost all, the greatest part/number, the majority, the bulk,the preponderance More
     
     antonyms:little, few

:^) Saltiness aside if 1 frame of invincibility being take from the best character in the game affects you THAT much, just stick to melee please we don't need that attitude around here

 

[Phaiyte]

Notice how I said most players wouldn't notice it. Let's pull up a dictionary shall we.

most
mōst/
determiner & pronoun
determiner: most; pronoun: most

1. 1.
   superlative of many, much.
2. 2.
   greatest in amount or degree.
   "they've had the most success"
   • the majority of; nearly all of.
     "most oranges are sweeter than these"
     synonyms:nearly all, almost all, the greatest part/number, the majority, the bulk,the preponderance More
     
     antonyms:little, few

:^) Saltiness aside if 1 frame of invincibility being take from the best character in the game affects you THAT much, just stick to melee please we don't need that attitude around here

I'm not the one complaining about the reworks. I don't even play Melee anymore.

 

[Yurya]

I could be wrong but I haven't seen a certain part of the discussion covered anywhere and that is regarding how character traits (non moveset parts of a character) effect balance.
Particularly with Spacies their falling speed is the most stark difference when compared to the rest of the cast. No one that I know of has done research into how valuable different traits are but I don't think anyone would disagree that falling faster is better for Offense
Anyway what do the people think about making spacies marginally floatier?
I could be wrong but I haven't seen a certain part of the discussion covered anywhere and that is regarding how character traits (non moveset parts of a character) effect balance.
Particularly with Spacies their falling speed is the most stark difference when compared to the rest of the cast. No one that I know of has done research into how valuable different traits are but I don't think anyone would disagree that falling faster is better for Offense. Falling faster also makes it easier to be comboed but I would say the tradeoff is for the better (I would love to see someone prove me wrong or right).
Anyway what do the people think about making spacies marginally floatier?

 

[NWRL]

I could be wrong but I haven't seen a certain part of the discussion covered anywhere and that is regarding how character traits (non moveset parts of a character) effect balance.
Particularly with Spacies their falling speed is the most stark difference when compared to the rest of the cast. No one that I know of has done research into how valuable different traits are but I don't think anyone would disagree that falling faster is better for Offense
Anyway what do the people think about making spacies marginally floatier?
I could be wrong but I haven't seen a certain part of the discussion covered anywhere and that is regarding how character traits (non moveset parts of a character) effect balance.
Particularly with Spacies their falling speed is the most stark difference when compared to the rest of the cast. No one that I know of has done research into how valuable different traits are but I don't think anyone would disagree that falling faster is better for Offense. Falling faster also makes it easier to be comboed but I would say the tradeoff is for the better (I would love to see someone prove me wrong or right).
Anyway what do the people think about making spacies marginally floatier?

what

 

[Rᴏb]

@ Rᴏb - Fox's USmash and Uair inherently work less well already because many stages have had their ceilings raised significantly in this patch.

Seriously I think some of you guys just like to watch yourselves type while bitching about nothing and not taking a small amount of time to review what you're talking about.

I don't really see how that is a nerf to Fox's usmash and uair when that change affects every character's killing potential rather than just Fox's.

 

[Phaiyte]

Not that many characters kill vertically as consistently as Fox. Raised ceilings hurt Fox more than any other character in the game and that is a fact.

 

[leelue]

It makes a massive difference in his ground and gimp game.
all kick type moves have less range, which is a direct nerf to nair shines in general.

@ Rᴏb - Fox's USmash and Uair inherently work less well already because many stages have had their ceilings raised significantly in this patch.

If you are getting the shine to hit, how is a massive problem for his gimp game? You get the gimp just fine.
Why do you think all kicks have reduced range? I have seen zero evidence to support this claim.
The ceilings were raised in general to more or less average out to be the melee ceiling averages, as far as I know.
And lets not forget that fox gets to up smash out of a dash faster than before. Or that fox isn't the only character that gets kills off the top of the screen... That's a lucas nerf just about as much as a fox nerf, man.