A Very Sensitive Topic

[Rᴏb]

Not that many characters kill vertically as consistently as Fox. Raised ceilings hurt Fox more than any other character in the game and that is a fact.

G&W, Lucas, Squirtle, Pikachu, Kirby, Snake, Mewtwo, Ivysaur, Pit, Samus... All have moves that can be consistently used to send people flying up. Why does it hurt Fox the most? It probably affects Fox the least out of all the characters I just listed because of how dang good his uair and usmash are.

 

[Phaiyte]

If you are getting the shine to hit, how is a massive problem for his gimp game? You get the gimp just fine.
Why do you think all kicks have reduced range? I have seen zero evidence to support this claim.
The ceilings were raised in general to more or less average out to be the melee ceiling averages, as far as I know.
And lets not forget that fox gets to up smash out of a dash faster than before. Or that fox isn't the only character that gets kills off the top of the screen... That's a lucas nerf just about as much as a fox nerf, man.

- The problem with shine gimp is it's very possible to get gimped yourself too.
- Apparent information on wiki. I don't actually believe all of what's there, but supposedly that was included.
- As far as I know they were already pretty similar to melee ceilings.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I keep wanting to respond to things with "Didn't we stop ******** about Fox in like 2010? I thought we were onto ******** about Stage Lists and Jigglypuff in doubles."

Then I see join dates, and I feel bad.

Side note: Brawl Falco is stylish as hell, but if I have to pick one? Melee Falco forever. It'd be sweet if we could have them both though.

 

[Bleck]

It's probably a discussion that's been had too many times, yeah.

 

[smashbro29]

I will admit that there's a part of me that hates how much work I need to put in to play as Fox. I love Star Fox.

 

[RomeDogg]

Brawl sucks and brawl vets enjoy it so they got there game and hell Smash 4 will be the beloved crappy sequel they have all been waiting for(Although slightly less crappy I am sure). Because obviously us with the Melee standard aren't going to think of it as a good game. Project M is to please Melee vets since they didn't get the sequel we all hoped for. Fox and Falco should stay the same. The nerfs they got are more than enough. Sure they can 0% to death the entire cast but also realize because of their fall speed they get 0% to deathed by the entire cast also. Also yeah their recovery is ridiculously predictable even when mixed up and it sucks so they usually don't come back after getting knocked off the stage and shouldn't against a good player.. I mean for real they have such a huge weakness they are even easier to combo then Bowser for god sake. Also why wouldn't you want Project M to be more like Melee? Melee is obviously the better game of the two or should I say the 3 excluding Smash 64 since well that one was the best no doubt. So anyways stupid changes like nerfing Fox and falco or changing them are the types of things that push me away from Project M. If they pull to much of that crap I will quit and only play Melee, just saying. Also they already forced me to drop my main since Smash 64 but even after that I still gave them a chance. On a final note someone has to be the best character and if you say "Well Im tired of it being Fox bla blah yada yada" Then go play some fuggin Brawl.

 

[NWRL]

This mentality is the cancer that needs chemo. Sorry dude they're not immune to changes and if the PMBR decides to nerf them then its gonna happen. Project M is for Project M fans, melee fans just happen to enjoy it for the most part

 

[RomeDogg]

Project M is also called Project Melee check it out on their twitter page. And it is true that Project M started in order to restore Melee Falco to his previous greatness. Nerfing him is like saying "oh thank you Falco for causing such a wonderful movement but we are ungrateful and we hate you so we are going to nerf you." If it is such a big deal to a handful of cry baby's then why not host Tourneys and ban Fox and Falco? I mean for real the reason characters are changed in PM from there previous form in Melee(which is the base of ALL Melee vets) is in order to make them BETTER. The idea around PM is to buff over nerf. Moves being changed from Melee are supposed to be made better if anything, not worse. Otherwise screw PM we got Melee. Its like we are arguing religion simutaneouslly debating weather or not Fox and Falco should have been abortions or if we should or could abort them now.

 

[MagnesD3]

They have said multiple times the M in project m stands for nothing. And they have said if fox and falco really need changing they will change them. There is nothing that says melee characters are untouchable.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I believe it was strongbad who posted this in a Youtube comment but "Project M is not Project Melee and any inconsistencies you see disproving this comment are completely intentional for the soul purpose of our enjoyment."

 

[TreK]

^ It should be called Project M Trolling Room

RomeDogg, ever hear of that button on your keyboard called 'enter', that makes you type in a new line ? I don't know if I agree with you or not because I simply can't read whatever you are typing. Please, do us all a favor and use that button. You'd be a dear.

As for the poll, I'm not voting. I'm letting the PMTR make a guess as to what is best for their game. And if it turns out I stop having fun and enjoying the game, I'll just quit without making a fuss about it until it gets fun again. I'd rather have them feel like they're free even if it means that I have to quit, rather than have them feel like they should cater to my personal tastes else I'll go mad.

 

[standardtoaster]

The youtube, twitter, and facebook page are projectmelee because the name we wanted was taken.

 

[foxygrandpa]

As a melee player, I liked this mod because it was a nod to the melee community, and I thought that maybe my favorite game wouldnt die out over time. Ive beaten a lot of fox players with project m made characters. If you cant do it, you simply dont know how to at this point, especially since literally every character has anti-spacie moves and good gimping ability. I think a lot of the people here are forgetting that most fox and falco players come from melee, know their character better, adapt faster, and overall play better due to the longer amount of time they've put into their characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

I believe it was strongbad who posted this in a Youtube comment but "Project M is not Project Melee and any inconsistencies you see disproving this comment are completely intentional for the soul purpose of our enjoyment."

I know this is a joke but I'd rather things like this not be said because not everyone knows it's a joke and it's easy to misinterpret. As Standardtoaster said, the game's name is "Project M" and that's all it has ever been; any appearances of "project melee" are because project m was taken already.

- As far as I know they were already pretty similar to melee ceilings.

I do not know why I have to continue to say this, but as of 3.0, the stage ceilings match Melee on average. They did not before; they were significantly lower.

 

[Bleck]

See, there's the problem. They've got it set to M, for mini, when it should be set to W for wumbo.

 

[leelue]

The idea around PM is to buff over nerf.

You haven't played ike, lucario, bowser, or sonic, have you...

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

You haven't played ike, lucario, bowser, or sonic, have you...

...they're all still buffed from Brawl, though.

Except, obviously, Olimar.

 

[leelue]

What is this brawl you speak of
is it new?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't know what this Brawl is, but it sounds disappointing ...

 

[SunJester]

I dislike that people think they're immune to balance changes, it irks me, and it goes against all the incredibly hard work the PMBR has put into balancing this game. Also it really feels like P:M is still trying to cater to Melee fans more than P:M fans with that logic.


Not that I play competitively (so take this with a grain of salt), but it seems absolutely moronic to me that Fox and Falco, two characters with some of the best combos and options around, are allowed to be campy.

Please shorten their lasers to half of Battlefield (or so) please.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I don't know what this Brawl is, but it sounds disappointing ...

Br "Aaaawwwww..." L

 

[Phaiyte]

Fox and Falco still aren't winning tournaments, guys.

 

[TreK]

^ that's not the issue though.

The question is, do you need them to be Melee ports, or do you want them to be revamps just like everybody else. It doesn't mean the revamp version would be any less viable, eh. Just very different. So much so that people would have to relearn them from scratch.

Still not voting :V

 

[turtletank]

I don't know what this Brawl is, but it sounds disappointing ...

NAAAAIL

 

[GP&B]

And the issue here isn't even dominance. Sheik didn't need to win tournaments in Melee to still be capable of shutting down over half the cast.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

A Falco just won Mayhem, a SoCal tourney with 96 entrants including Melee greats like SFAT and Fly Amanita.

Can I b*tch about spacies now?

 

[Spire]

Falco is the most uninteresting character to me. I recognize that despite the visual similarities, he and Fox play very differently and that is what the PMBR seemed to be going for. I'm somewhat bemused that Falco is more similar to Fox and Ganondorf to Captain Falcon than Mewtwo, an actual clone is to Lucario. I'd think the PMBR might take this opportunity to explore creative ways to evolve these character beyond Brawl, rather than reverting to Melee. The truth is, no matter how you might change Brawl veterans to match the Melee-revived playstyles of its characters, unless you actually port Brawl's characters into Melee, you're only moving forward beyond Brawl. As such, the likes of Lucario, Ike, Lucas, Olimar, and Wario—as they play in Project M—are closer to Smash 4 than they are Melee. There is no reversion.

I had hoped the Project M characters would take the best aspects of Melee and Brawl, hybridize them, then evolve them even further. Lucas' revamped PK Ice is a fine indicator of evolution, not melee-reversion. I severely doubt had Lucas been in Melee that he would play like he does in PM. As such, the PM roster is split between reverse-engineering pre-Brawl characters into their Melee incarnations (with some tweaks) and evolving Brawl newcomers beyond their limits in said game. It's like Project M is Brawl trying to travel backwards and forwards in time simultaneously. It's got an identity crisis!

Also, why does Jigglypuff still die upon breaking its shield. Way to go balance?

In conclusion: from a competitive standpoint, I totally understand why Fox and Falco play the way they do. They just... feel old.

 

[GP&B]

Since when does a pro Jiggs ever practically have their shield broken? It's far more likely she'll just get poked before that even happens or straight up not be on the ground for a majority of the match.

And Lucario, a clone of Mewtwo? What is this, GameFAQs?

 

[666blaziken]

Everyone is sensitive about this topic. Even the PMBR had said that they were reluctant to nerf fox and falco so their shine didn't give them an invincible frame, and make them less campy by decreasing the damage of their lasers as it goes farther. Those were tiny nerfs that don't affect their playstyle, but make it so that the other characters will have less of anti-fox and anti-falco moves in order to be top tier, so these nerfs are fair. . I personally think that as long as fox and falco still have the same playstyle as in melee, it's ok to tweak them a bit to balance the cast.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

Since when does a pro Jiggs ever practically have their shield broken? It's far more likely she'll just get poked before that even happens or straight up not be on the ground for a majority of the match.

And Lucario, a clone of Mewtwo? What is this, GameFAQs?

The changed brawl newcomers are closer to Smash 4 than to Melee? Is this man high?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

They can wavedash. That alone makes them closer to Melee than Sm4sh.

I get his point though - it is hard to imagine that were Ike, Lucario or Lucas in Melee, their movesets would be anything like their P:M incarnations. JC Quickdraw, DJC aerials and OHC combos - none of those are very 'Melee', but they are quintessential Project M.

 

[Phan7om]

Wait.. there is something I dont understand here. Asking for changes in Fox and Falco to have both Melee and Brawl things to make up for both fans. What possibly could be in Brawl that Melee didnt do better thats not already in. Shine is not getting changed on Falco. Falco wont be able to CG like in Brawl. And he can already DACUS... and thats really the only things I could see being done to him... so whats the deal? Nothings going to be changed.

How I see the top tier characters are that they should remain exactly the same from Melee (coming from a Melee Kirby main), with everyone else buffed up to be just as good as them.

 

[Revven]

The only thing the OP got right was the topic title.

Kappa

 

[W¡ndy]

See, there's the problem. They've got it set to M, for mini, when it should be set to W for wumbo.

Project:M
Wumbo Mode

All attacks have been set to Wumbo ( all attacks have doubled hit box, ranged attacks are 3times as big.)

 

[JOE!]

Just wanna give my 2 cents here:

1) Given the sheer amount of talk about Fox and Falco, even if they are "fine", doesn't just the volume speak for itself in terms of maybe something being up in regards to their design? For example, tons of characters were given anti-spacie tools to deal with them, however it was not just them: Wolf and Captain Falcon (among others) suffer from design choices meant to cull the effectiveness of just 2 characters. On top of this, why exactly are they deemed as so important anyway? Sure they are played a lot but you could argue folks like Marth and Peach have had more overall success in melee than the space animals, so could it be that people simply flocked tot hem because they pushed the envelope in terms of "goodness" which then created a cycle where they developed faster and gained more popularity and so forth? In any case, I'd just like to know specifically why these two out of the whole cast are so taboo to even discuss when others are talked about freely despite either having similar success or had less "going for them" yet still received changes.

2) While the Project does use melee as it's base, it does confuse me as to the aversion toward many Brawl moves and attributes. For example, Falco's Fair in Melee and Brawl (at a glance to me) seem to do the same thing: a multihit move that hits just in front of them. Why was that reverted given he barely even uses Fair to begin with? It could be a bad example, but I guess my point is that it seems weird to me that there is such a knee jerk reaction to change as much of brawl as possible when there *could* be legit stuff from it that are on veteran characters, a great example being keeping Ganon's Side B from Brawl mixed with melee attributes. Perhaps I'm just a smidge confused when it seems ok to change brawl characters completely, but essential to keep vets as similar as possible in the general consensus. It may be weird to think about it, but most characters in this game (including Melee Vets) are Brawl vets as well... (Not saying Melee stuff isn't better / worse, just that it may be worthwhile to look at some things Brawl changed in terms of design here and there without dismissing it entirely).


EDIT:

Heck, what Spire said actually makes a ton of sense: the Brawl Cast have been changed in radical, interesting ways that make them really stand out from any smash before, which in turn makes them closer to Sm4sh in that aspect than any previous game due to the sheer creativity found in them. Why can't Melee vets have these sorts of things going for them?

 

[Bleck]

For example, Falco's Fair in Melee and Brawl (at a glance to me) seem to do the same thing: a multihit move that hits just in front of them. Why was that reverted given he barely even uses Fair to begin with?

Falco's Fair in Melee and Brawl both have five hits, but the Melee Fair hits several times with strong enough knockback that comboing into itself is next to impossible, whereas the Brawl Fair has fixed knockback on the first four hits that are intended to chain into the fifth hit, which has a larger (if still somewhat small) amount of knockback. While, on the surface, the moves may seem similar in purpose, they're very different in practice.

That being said, I think I understand what you're saying, in that it doesn't seem to make sense to change the move back from its Brawl incarnation back to the Melee one, since it seems like Melee players rarely use the attack (I mean, I'm not the greatest player in the world, but Falco is my Melee main and I certainly don't use it often, if at all).

 

[9bit]

Fox and Falco don't really need another good move. Their F-airs are occasionally used by pro players and it usually results in a good spectacle when they use it well. It can also exist as a sort of punishment for flubbing an imput. Say you want to do a N-air but you want to maintain your forward jump momentum, well now there is a chance that you will end up using a less effective move in that situation because you didn't play well enough -- instead of just doing a pretty good attack anyway and not really caring that you didn't do what you wanted to do.

I'm in the camp of "some moves should be very situational." I really don't think every move should be all that good in so many situations. I really like that some characters have "bad" moves. Flavor.

 

[JOE!]

So, their Fair's are there as "mess up fodder"? How does that make sense?

Falco's Fair in Melee and Brawl both have five hits, but the Melee Fair hits several times with strong enough knockback that comboing into itself is next to impossible, whereas the Brawl Fair has fixed knockback on the first four hits that are intended to chain into the fifth hit, which has a larger (if still somewhat small) amount of knockback. While, on the surface, the moves may seem similar in purpose, they're very different in practice.

Right, but then why not use the animation of Brawl or such while using the same hitbox? Like I've said, it's probably a weak example but you get where Im going with it, right?

That being said, I think I understand what you're saying, in that it doesn't seem to make sense to change the move back from its Brawl incarnation back to the Melee one, since it seems like Melee players rarely use the attack (I mean, I'm not the greatest player in the world, but Falco is my Melee main and I certainly don't use it often, if at all).

Right, its a rarely used move in the 1st place and the Brawl incarnation may as well have the same function if you made the hitboxes have the same functionality. It just seemed like a sort of unnecessary change / preference based to change the whole animation for a similar attack.

 

[9bit]

Melee top tier characters are left close to how they were in Melee because the goal of Project M is to create a Smash fighting game that is similar to Melee in many ways. Not all ways, but many. So you leave characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Captain Falcon, Peach, and Jigglypuff pretty much alone. Maybe you tweak a few minor things like Shine invincibility or Sheik's d-throw chaingrab, but you mostly leave them alone. You do this so you have a basis around which to balance the rest of the cast as well as make the game more inviting for long-time Melee players. Which helps the game grow.

There's absolutely no point in giving Falco his Brawl forward air animation, especially if you plan to make it function the same as Melee's.

Listen, I'm all for giving Fox and Falco changes if they need them. But that example is just... unneeded.

 

[1MachGO]

Right, but then why not use the animation of Brawl or such while using the same hitbox? Like I've said, it's probably a weak example but you get where Im going with it, right?

This is a pretty naive statement. The animations are so different that inserting unmatched hitboxes/frame data would make the attack confusing in appearance/unpolished in nature. Its an all or nothing ordeal and there are potential risks in regards to buffing a character already deemed to be effective in their current state.

I think what a lot of people are missing is that replicating melee top tiers offers other advantages beyond appealing to the melee-player demographic; incorporating old meta is useful as a frame of reference for balancing.