A thread to hopefully quell the madness. A look into Brawl and it's ATs

[Fizz-sama]

Very well said. Especially since it's seemed to have gotten' through to some people.

 

[Zink]

mookiethread, delicious! very nice. MK is too good?
This is why Ike rules. Anyone approaching with an aerial gets a KO move to the face. We'll need to find more approach options, huh?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Mookie, that was beautiful. I really have to agree with what you said. These are the kind of AT's I can totally tolerate, and so can any open minded casual. There's nothing mysterious, cryptic or weird ("glitchy"?) about these. Just simple things that people can find out on their own if they play enough.

I look forward to it.

 

[Tatsujinken]

Man, I didn't look into this topic for the longest time since I thought it was about ASSIST TROPHIES. I'm glad I finally looked though.

 

[Fletch]

Good post, and I really hope you're right for Brawl's sake.

 

[Devotion]

I was pessimistic about Brawl myself for a good while, so I can understand where a lot of these guys are coming from, but yeah, we got to remove that Melee lens and start viewing this game differently. The same stuff won't work in Brawl as it did in Melee. Also, like I said, because of it's more intuitive gameplay, even the casual players will be able to pull off very impressive stuff. If anything I see this as an amazing thing that Sakurai has managed to do. Of course, there will still be a lot of non-intuitive tricks that will be discovered, but the most important things are covered now by basic gameplay mechanics.

This is very exciting, and I think it will manage to bring together competitive and casual players together in the long run.

I agree with you 100%. I've been trying to tell friends its Brawl, not Melee 2. But they keep telling me how perfect the fighting in Melee was and how they don't think they'll like Brawl that much compared to it. Also I agree with bringing together casual and competitive players together, who cares if the game is a bit easier to play or whatever I'd be glad to see more people being able to compete and having more get into the tournament scene. I don't why some people see that as a bad thing.

 

[MookieRah]

@XYZ
That guy didn't know how to use Ganon properly without causing him to be a lag fest. If you wanna see a vid that shows some of Ganon's potential check this out:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY
Note at the first part of the match he tries to play him like melee ganon, and he is laggy as heck. Then he realizes he has to change his play and begins discovering his other options. Ganon's forward B is tech chase awesome.

 

[MrLegend]

I always thought that the L-Cancel being gone isn't that bad since a lot of aerials have almost no lag. Its like in other fighting games. Don't spam Terry Bogard's FK but feel free to use his FP. One move has mucho lag, the other is cancellable into other moves.

 

[Aerozeke]

So what is the replacement for L-canceling? It's very simple. Everyone is floatier now. Most aerials are faster now. The new L-canceling is simple, you have to time your aerials so that you land after the animation is over. If you do this you do not suffer from any lag.

If this is true, then that's excellent news. :D It means that lag-cancelling is still present in some form, albeit it may be more troublesome to pull off.

Great post, great view on things. I feel much more optimistic now.

 

[MookieRah]

If this is true, then that's excellent news. :D It means that lag-cancelling is still present in some form, albeit it may be more troublesome to pull off.

Yeah, it will be more troublesome, as it doesn't have the option to land any way you want without lag; however, it's a pretty smart compromise.

Don't spam Terry Bogard's FK but feel free to use his FP. One move has mucho lag, the other is cancellable into other moves.

Yeah, for the most part that seems right. Only the finishers tend to have lag afterwards. This is why you shouldn't spam fairs with Ganon like the guy in the target test. To make up for not being able to spam fairs though, Sakurai gave Ganon the most BA forward B in the game. Ganon's got *****es on lock.

 

[MrLegend]

Yeah, there is a reason why I brought up Terry's aerial game. Ganon's forward B brought me back to fighting God Rugal in CvsSNK 2. The choke is just bad ***.

I like how the new L-Cancel works out. I just saw the video with WW Link fighting Ganon with spammed back airs and it looks really useful. KO moves deserve to have more lag then the others, right?

And to be honest, I too, also thought this was about Assist Trophies.

 

[veil222]

Thank god someone else is linking that video besides me to show Ganon and other heavy hitters have alot of potential. I felt sorry for that falco at some points, he really got tossed around.

 

[NES n00b]

You can't quel my madness. *TRUTH!!!!*

Though, I do like to say that this game would probably more like Street Fighter 2 which wasn't very technical, focused on zoning, and had more like small hit and run combos which the characters have to go back to zoning. That is what I think this game would be more like and Street Fighter 2 I didn't think was a bad game at all.

 

[ComradeSAL]

Besides the points the OP made, I'd like to make an additional point as a casual SSBM player who may decide to play Brawl competitively.

Above all else, a game should be easy to pick up and play, and difficult to master. SSBM was like that; the competitive metagame started simple, and then gradually evolved as complex techniques were discovered and developed.

However, if L-cancels, wave-dashes etc. made it into Brawl, the age-old axiom would no longer be true for Brawl. For a beginner to start playing competitively, he would have to learn a set of esoteric techniques that everyone else on the scene would already have under their belt. In other words, the game would be very difficult to pick up and play, at least competitively.

Removing the old bag of tricks lets players like me (who never bothered with wave-dashing) start on a level playing field. As such, playing Brawl competitively is much more appealing to me than it would have been if I had known I would have to learn L-cancels. The barrier of entry is far, far lower.

Will the game evolve as players learn new techniques? Certainly. But this way I don't have to feel like I'm catching up to what everyone else already knows. Instead, I can develop my game with the rest of you, and learn from there.

And, if other people like me feel similarly and decide to start playing Brawl competitively, this would be a very good thing for the competitive scene. The more players the merrier, after all.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Great post, Mookie. This should honestly be stickied for awhile.

It also makes me really happy about maining Ganon from Melee to Brawl. I have the same mindset as you, but haven't really had a reason to justify Ganon's nerfs.

MookieRah for top tier. >;3

 

[billywill]

nicely done

 

[phanna]

AT = Assist Trophy

People are starting to cause confusion through use of that term for other things, like advanced techs here.

 

[Adi]

One of my worries is the fact that none of the launch moves (Falcon's Forward B, Throws, Ect..) seem to be able to launch the opponent into combos. From what I've seen most of the combos that have been formed have just been from the opponent messing up their techs/DI or someone like Toon Link or Meta who have crazy combos, any insight to quell this fear?

 

[Kittah4]

My worries for the game are mostly superficial, but I didn't see a lot of fast falling or even teching even when the more advanced videos were coming. They would seem to just take the fall rather than tech away. Is fast falling completely out or does it still exist? It makes some sense to take out L-cancelling arials (you dont have to L-cancel on the ground ever, after all), but taking out fast falling makes no sense at all.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Fast falling is confirmed to be in.

 

[The Slayer]

Hmmm, very true indeed. It's not like I'm perfect with ATs, but if L-canceling is still in there in some form, then I'm fine with it. Also just to quote on this:

@XYZ
That guy didn't know how to use Ganon properly without causing him to be a lag fest. If you wanna see a vid that shows some of Ganon's potential check this out:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY
Note at the first part of the match he tries to play him like melee ganon, and he is laggy as heck. Then he realizes he has to change his play and begins discovering his other options. Ganon's forward B is tech chase awesome.

Not to mention that it reminds me of Dedede's chaingrabbing, however, Ganondorf might be a little bit better since it can prepare with two moves instead of moving them to the edge, but that's just me.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Wow, I have to agre with this. I got angry when someone said me that the people were working in discovering glitches in brawl, and they got quite a few...

but the things you are saying are right. They are REALLY like advanced techniques and no exploits/glitches. These are things that you can figure by yourself.

(Please, someone stop the high gravity post NOW)

 

[WeeklyJumpman]

"Advanced Techniques" were nothing but glitches people abused.
Thanks to Sakurai and his team for cleaning that up.

 

[yoshi_fan]

"Advanced Techniques" were nothing but glitches people abused.
Thanks to Sakurai and his team for cleaning that up.

Thanks for clarifing my point (my english sucks)

 

[Erik McLennan]

@XYZ
That guy didn't know how to use Ganon properly without causing him to be a lag fest. If you wanna see a vid that shows some of Ganon's potential check this out:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mxfh5MyMdXY
Note at the first part of the match he tries to play him like melee ganon, and he is laggy as heck. Then he realizes he has to change his play and begins discovering his other options. Ganon's forward B is tech chase awesome.

Whoa, at 4:10 in that video, how does Ganon grab the ledge while facing the wrong way from his UpB? Is this the new "auto sweet-spot" that people have been talking about?

 

[Adi]

"Advanced Techniques" were nothing but glitches people abused.

L-canceling, edgehog, short hops, fast falls, and power-shielding were not glitches. Please die.

 

[yoshi_fan]

L-canceling, edgehog, short hops, fast falls, and power-shielding were not glitches. Please die.

L-cancelling was.

Please, go marry with falco (i think die isn't enough for this fail)

 

[Adi]

L-cancelling was.

1. Learn to spell.
2. No, L-canceling wasn't a glitch ****tard. In Smash 64 it was a glitch as it reduced all lag but in the transition to Melee they nerfed it so that it only reduced half lag. This proves that they were fully aware of it and adapted it to their own intent. So no, L-canceling was not a glitch in Melee.

And yes I do <3 Falco ^_^.

 

[2.72]

Originally found by MookieRah:

Z canceling was intentional way back in SSB64.

 

[Adi]

Z canceling was intentional way back in SSB64.

Thanks, proves my point even more.

 

[yoshi_fan]

ouch

/auto STFU

But aniways, if they removed it, it have to had a reason don't it?

(Sorry for the spelling, but my native language isn't american english... neither UK english -.-U)

 

[WhiteDragon]

I can pretty safely say I'm in the minority when I say that I was VERY happy when I found out they had changed the way Brawl worked in a direction away from ATs. I was proficient at the ones in Melee, but I always thought it would make a lot more sense if you could concentrate on the moves you were doing and how best to chain them together instead of shifting your fingers quickly enough to keep up. Everything I've heard about Brawl just makes me want it ten times more, and I know that I will love it to death.

Great post by the way

 

[Mama]

I can pretty safely say I'm in the minority when I say that I was VERY happy when I found out they had changed the way Brawl worked in a direction away from ATs. I was proficient at the ones in Melee, but I always thought it would make a lot more sense if you could concentrate on the moves you were doing and how best to chain them together instead of shifting your fingers quickly enough to keep up. Everything I've heard about Brawl just makes me want it ten times more, and I know that I will love it to death.

Great post by the way

You must not have read it all since he stated that people like you are pretty immature lol. In fact I doubt you read any of his post...But I wont push it since games are fun regardless of your competitive skill. Understanding advanced play takes competitive experience and totally different mindset than yours.

 

[pictish freak]

Excellent post Mookie but I wish you had pre-emptively cut off the main criticism I can see coming (It's dumb downed!) and emphasised that making the game less tech intensive isn't so 'noobs can win' but specifically so that yomi is rewarded and not tech skill. Being good at muscle memory patterns does not a smart player make, yet some people were shut up due to not being technical enough. A 'noob' isn't someone that can't perform tech feats, just those who can't yomi very well due to lack of game understanding and appraisal of move value.

For an example to the tournament savvy, I'm sure everyone faced that one fox. There was one at every tournament. He's really freaking fast and before the tournament he's in training mode showing people how he can drill waveshine chars across FD and back or some crap. He's the exact person that, after you fight him, people say 'Man there's so few smart foxes, just fast foxes'. Of course, a fast smart fox would be best - but if you can reduce the tech skill needed to be fast, then only the smart one will need, no need to undergo hours of muscle memory training.

Since the game is less tech intensive, there is less of a barrier between 'being smart enough to beat the opponent' and 'time invested needed to even get to compete'.

But it's a nitpick, if people can't infer that they'd probably happily misunderstand it anyway.

 

[WhiteDragon]

You must not have read it all since he stated that people like you are pretty immature lol. In fact I doubt you read any of his post...But I wont push it since games are fun regardless of your competitive skill. Understanding advanced play takes competitive experience and totally different mindset than yours.

I was considering not responding to this, but you know what? People like you piss me off.

I read the entire post, and I stated my OPINION. He didn't say anyone was immature other than those that are saying that the game sucks. It's different. That's all. And what he was saying is that the depth is going to come much more from intuitive technique use and strategy than from needing to find techniques that are "cryptic" from people who randomly discovered them. I agreed with this, so I really have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

Also, without knowing what I've experienced, you state that I a.) have no competitive skill and b.) don't understand and can't possibly understand advanced play. I've been to several tournaments, done fairly well, and improved my game greatly each time. I won't claim to be amazing, but I am a little above halfway up in most of the tournaments I've been to.

Not only are you taking away from the thread's importance by randomly taking an undeserved shot at me, but you're making yourself look like an idiot in the meantime. Congratulations!

 

[wakka444]

Mookie=win on every post he makes?!?! Im glad you so persuasively made this point while keeping facts and a nonflaming attitude 5 stars ^^

 

[thesage]

ouch

/auto STFU

But aniways, if they removed it, it have to had a reason don't it?

(Sorry for the spelling, but my native language isn't american english... neither UK english -.-U)

Sakurai was very weird with what glitches he took out. He kept Bowser's flame cancelling, which was a glitch that was removed in later versions of melee.

Well at least Bowser's flame cancel was in at e4all. I dunno if they took it out.

Heck, if anything, they are trying to make the techs harder (pivoting and foxtrotting is much harder than WD imo, and dash dancing is harder to do).

 

[Knight-errant]

Ah, good meaty information. It's nice to read someone looking at this as a new game rather than "How can we make this like Melee?" If you (and others) continue to look at the game in this way, we'll develop competitive gameplay and advanced techs much sooner.

 

[Brentos4o8]

Great post. When you said ATs I was thinking Assist Trophies but I got something better. LOL.