A Snake Social

[Sylarius]

Professor Pro did an AMA on reddit earlier today if you guys missed it.

http://redd.it/390e6c

 

[LupinX]

How do you D-air more consistently? I only use the first 3 hits, but want to make it more consistently with 4. Is there a technique to do it?

The AMA was a good read. I hope he and Messi plays more Snake in the future

 

[cisyphus]

What trouble are you having with down air exactly?

 

[yink059]

i sometimes dont hit my fourth hit even if i use the c-stick... maybe i just dont use it as early in the jump or something

 

[cisyphus]

oh wow it's only a two frame window to get the fourth hitbox out lol. Snake's SH is 34 frames long and down air's fourth hitbox is active on 33. I get it every time sooo ??

 

[yink059]

cisyphus:

 

[BND]

My computer broke so I can't really do any convenient definitive testing, but if memory serves correctly, the window for the 4th hit is actually 6ish frames for the same (opposite?) reason "Snake Flashing"/other landing shenanigans works (Ground detection point retracts).

 

[LupinX]

Ya, dair is probably my hardest thing to learn from Snake xD.

 

[cisyphus]

Tested the above point and found that BND is correct: the bottom collision point shifts high enough that Snake gets an extra 2 frames to successfully complete down air (i.e. get the fourth hitbox). I knew 2 frames seemed inconsistent with how easy it was :\

So yeah, you all have FOUR FRAMES to do this. That's about as easy as getting the short hop in the first place.

 

[LupinX]

Since everybody is now learning the Anti-Snake matchup. What do we do, as Snake mains to combat this? People are now learning the how to deal with us. Because I've noticed, when Snake mains get figured out, they get punished hard and it becomes an uphill battle. It comes to the point where Snake has little comeback. How do you guys deal with players that are familiar with us?

 

[BND]

I think there are a few ways to react to this:

1. Obscuring harmful information--This was partially the point I brought up in thread 379920 as a result of Cypher and down air being nerfed, but I guess back then it was more severe in terms of intended application. Basically, we omit information that could potentially bite Snake mains in the butt and only stress the good points, unless said butt-biting info is painfully obvious.

To cite a few examples of my own:
A. I (for the most part) freely advocated ftilt -> tranq without obscuring anything when the opponent hits the ground, since that would pressure the opponent into teching behind if they even tech. This theoretically strengthens the standard jab reset attempt -> tech chase if it misses option, since it covers tech behind and missed tech (barring SDI upwards), and if they fish for the missed tech -> SDI upwards -> quick aerial, you always have ftilt -> tranq as stated before. The counterplay is fairly obvious if you spend a few minutes looking into it, yet there's not much an opponent can do against it, so it shareable without any long term consequences.

B. If I remember correctly, I claimed that Marth suicide dair can be easily countered with dropping from the Cypher-> C4ing a few frames before he hits you. As far as I know, this is a true claim; all of the times I got spiked out of Cypher were from carelessness. I purposefully omitted the mechanics behind Cypher, though, since it would be disadvantageous if the general public were to find out, and doesn't confer much of a benefit to Snake mains if they do.

C. I actually wrote out and deleted an entire theorycraft segment on Snake vs. Sheik, just because the gameplay was so degenerative. Played "optimally", Snake vs. Sheik seems to be a 45-55, but without the Sheik understanding any of Snake's options, it quickly shifts into a competent Snake's favor for a while. From there, the Snake either must force a character switch by making the matchup seem impossible to maintain the advantage, or (if they have moral standards, and as I unsuccessfully did in more ways than one at some point) confuse the Sheik player by purposefully giving them openings, falling back on more advanced anti-Sheik tactics as the player adapts, and trying to obscure the matchup, lest degenerative gameplay begins. Basically, in these situations, we delay the metagame by concealing information, which confers an overall advantage to Snakes who bother to review strategy and tactics (who are more likely to watch Snake replays), while hopefully leaving everyone else behind until more discoveries in the meta can be developed.

D. I made no mention of this anywhere, but I'll just say this: IGTing is a lot more useful than people give it credit for due to a fundamental weakness in standard grenade tactics (that nobody's bothered to uncover yet), but methods of countering it put it roughly in the same zone of effectiveness normal grenade tactics have today. Won't be describing how or why, but this would also be an example of obscuring info for a temporary long term advantage: the counterplay regarding grenade weaknesses can't be done easily by Snakes, while grenade counterplay itself, while probably not the easiest thing to implement, is definitely easier than grenade-counterplay-counterplay.

tl;dr not the healthiest way to approach Project M, but we should probably delay our buttwhooping until we have more tools to buttwhoop with.

2. Outplaying your opponent-- Fortunately, Snake has enough mixup options that it's fairly easy to be unpredictable without any harmful consequences. Unfortunately, this basically pits your Snake knowledge against your opponent's Snake knowledge, not to mention their own proficiencies with their character and the character matchup in general, but if you can assert yourself to be the better Snake player, on the offensive side, at least, you'll have the advantage. Of course, the 20xx situation implies that Snake players have to have faster reflexes/more knowledge than their opponents, but that's how games are won, right?

3. Developing the metagame-- This is probably the idealistic way to approach things, but at this point the metagame's already been solidified a great deal. I'm running out of steam myself and have been sitting on the same knowledge since April or May, and I haven't really seen any new "discoveries" (barring Messi's grenade -> grab, which I still don't really approve of) since...I'm not sure when, actually. Probably Rolex's ledgehop->cypher, though that was a really long time ago. Still, this is what all true Snakes should strive for (*insert chalice*), and hopefully we'll figure something out before the beans are spilled.

4. Wait for PMDT to rescue us-- lol that's not happening (probably?)

 

[cisyphus]

This is a struggle that reaches beyond just Snake: it kind of is the trademark of Project M as a whole—people are learning how to deal with "jank" and then the jank stops seeming to be so good. This is stuff like Cypher OOS, Grenading out of combos, tranq shenanigans, and the like. However, proper, smart play still propels Snake upward and it really shouldn't make any matchup "an uphill battle." If you're encountering difficulty across the board that can be attributed to people "figuring you out" you probably aren't playing very optimally and need to begin seriously considering your actions and habits. I'll quote MI Melee PR Ginger in saying, "I don't care if people know the faults of my character—I'll actually tell them outright so they can challenge me to be better at the game." He has an awesome neutral through his massive array of options as well as an immensely strong punish game and easy KOs. Beyond that, his "jank" is still viable and forces an opponent to play carefully, which makes your defensive game so much better as well. Snake is a really good character and I can't see any matchup being too terrible for him. I played #8 in MI Benji last night Snake vs. Falcon and started to see that I could KO falcon at < 60% easily with back throw into an edgeguard. If he went on stage, I could rising tranq from ledge and then Stick, grab, back throw, bait out jump into forward air or back air. That's insane, Falco-level gimping power! I can force Kirby and Jigglypuff to time simply by using my movement and traps to keep them out of range. That's amazing. Snake is still really underutilized overall and everyone's gotta keep that in mind and also realize that that is true for a lot of other characters as well—meaning both positive (untapped potential) and negative (unknown faults) things for everyone.

In other news, Ally, Lordy, and Dirtboy might be coming over today so I'll have cool Ike, Falcon, and Squirtle experiences

 

[BND]

If you're encountering difficulty across the board that can be attributed to people "figuring you out" you probably aren't playing very optimally and need to begin seriously considering your actions and habits.

:<
Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Anyways, any replays recorded/learn anything interesting during the session/did it happen? (Missed the "might be")

 

[cisyphus]

As of midnight there's no sign of them so RIP the dream rofl. I've just been playing Benji again.

 

[LupinX]

Alright, so I have discovered recently that Snake has a port priority things where if you get a higher number on port, grenades/mines won't activate knockback. This I didn't know considering i don't like getting grabbed while a grenade/mine is active though I've heard in commentary. Tested this out, so it actually is there. (I'm so noob lol)

Do you think port priority should stay or get removed? I think it's pretty dumb. Now that I'm concious of it, how do your guys' gameplay change if you are low or high port? What do you do differently?

 

[BND]

I think port priority should get removed; in the 20xx situation, this shouldn't be a big problem, but getting there in the first place doesn't sound like any fun. On the realistic end of things, It's also fairly annoying when people john about port priority, but automatically giving them the advantage's just not a good idea when they're not developing counterplay on any scale.

With that being said, my port of choice is usually port 3; most reasonable people would pick port 2 to keep the symmetry, and if they pick port 4 I get the moral victory (which, realistically, doesn't matter at all but whatever). In game, though, I try to avoid any position in which port priority would actually result in a change in terms of outcome.

For omnigaying, on the other hand...
(though, truth be told, I haven't invested much time into the thing once other tourneygoers started advising others into RPSing for port 4)

 

[LupinX]

I don't usually mind port priority when I play Snake. If you(P1) grab the opponent(P4) and there is a live grenade between you two, what is the most optimum throw you can use without putting yourself in too much disadvantage?

 

[BND]

I don't usually mind port priority when I play Snake. If you(P1) grab the opponent(P4) and there is a live grenade between you two, what is the most optimum throw you can use without putting yourself in too much disadvantage?

If you don't know how many frames the grenade has left, it depends on the time you have left on the grab, what your positioning is, and what the opponent's percentage is. If you have little to no time on the grab, then pick whatever throw you want and hope you time your throw well. If there's ample time, then it's easy enough to treat the grenade as if it weren't there and maybe even combo off of it; up throw is Snake's second fastest throw next to back throw, and probably his best overall at lower percents. If you're at a moderately high percent with lots of time left on the grenade, you also have the option of walking backwards until you're out of range of the grenade and proceeding to pummel them for the remainder; that way your grenade should send your opponent upwards at a decent combo angle (Unfortunately I can't test how viable this is, since I don't have Dolphin with me. I do believe that this gives the opponent the full 12% damage of the grenade as well as pummel damage, but I can't verify this, and I don't know what the grab release animation gives in terms of frame advantage).

If the grenade has a lot of time left on it, you also have the option of down throwing, running away (No wavedashing because there's a grenade nearby), and reacting appropriately, as Messi did. I personally don't like this approach, since a down throw is more than half of the grenade timer and there are better things to do off of a grenade lasting that long; it also puts Snake at a reaction disadvantage, since no-roll, roll away/stand, and possibly even roll in result in 2-3 different things to react to.

Theoretically you could back throw them -> IGT the grenade at them for actual guaranteed damage at any (?) percent, but I haven't seen anyone aside from myself use IGT as a staple in their gameplay, and I've never encountered a situation in which I had a grenade on the floor to utilize. I say back throw since it's both the fastest and the least-negative-on-throw throw that Snake has, though I'd guess that most other throws could work too given a good enough grenade timer.

EDIT: Theoretically walking away and dthrowing the opponent so that the grenade explodes on frame 40 is optimal, but good luck if you're trying to do this.

 

[cisyphus]

You can counterpick ports after game 1 at any respectable tournament and it'd be fine, just so y'all know. I think having that added advantage is always advisable and certainly worth contesting.

 

[Sylarius]

Do you think port priority should stay or get removed? I think it's pretty dumb. Now that I'm concious of it, how do your guys' gameplay change if you are low or high port? What do you do differently?

I lost in grand finals of a tournament long time ago because I was down in port priority, grenade exploded and he jump uair killed me before I got out of histun. It should be removed and have them both take knockback, port priority is dumb and gives an unfair advantage to one of the players lol.

(Last stock last hit scenario is what I'm talking about above)

"Played "optimally", Snake vs. Sheik seems to be a 45-55, but without the Sheik understanding any of Snake's options, it quickly shifts into a competent Snake's favor for a while."

I definitely think Snake v. Sheik is close to 33-65 played "optimally".

 

[cisyphus]

y'all just gotta play the RPS mindgames and throw Paper into Scissor. Works every time.

As for Sheik vs. Snake, I think it's 6:4, quite simply. A lot of the advantages Sheik has—edgeguarding, neutral, and comboing, is quite strong against Snake. However, edgeguarding Sheik is absolutely the greatest thing for Snake to do. Her landing lag on Up B is enormous, meaning you get a free tranq into C4 if you simply wait for it to go on stage (grab ledge!). Comboing Sheik is relatively easy for Snake and doesn't require 50-50 situations like Sheik does vs Snake (ex. B-throw vs. D-throw into DACUS KOs). Snake is assured u-throw, u-air C4 KOs, plain and simple. Sheik's neutral is what edges it out for her, as Snake is quite slow and has limited mobility whereas Sheik has massive speed in both her mobility and her hitboxes, as well as the needed disjoint to combat Snake's defensive options. Optimal in my mind is being misused here: if the Sheik is absolutely perfect in Neutral, she will get more safe hits on Snake than Snake can get on her, meaning OPTIMALLY, the matchup goes to time and Sheik wins every time either by percent or stock lead. However, nobody plays optimally, which is why punishes are still important to consider. Snake, in my mind, has an easier time punishing Sheik than Sheik does punishing Snake provided they both know the other's punish game very well. The challenge for Snake is overcoming the neutral, which means properly baiting out Sheik's reactionary actions and taking punishes as far as they can go. Needles are limited to horizontal and diagonal trajectories with little variation between the two (diagonal is far more flexible but Snake has ways of dealing with that). I say all this because my doubles partner for the last few tournaments is a Sheik main. I play it a ton and we both understand each other very well. I'm always ending up on top and I can only credit that to Root's aggressive tendencies.

 

[BND]

Best of 1s though .-. (and verbal bluffing for thought manipulation beforehand's unsportsmanlike, it seems)

 

[cisyphus]

Nah see the most common first move is Rock: your hand is already formed that way in the preparatory stage, and Rock has the psychological sturdiness and strength. Therefore, people are most likely to pick that, and least likely to pick Scissors, which loses to Rock. Paper is the safest first option, and the expectation is that they'll follow their same move again, meaning you play what you lose to in the result of a tie. There's a whole study about this believe it or not, I'll see if I can find it later.

 

[LupinX]

Sheik's a pain to deal with, but Snake's punish options are incredibly potent against her. So basically once you get her into a grab/hit confirm, it should equal a stock. And DACUS from crouch is also very important when playing against Sheik(basically everyone else as well) because her needles cant touch you and if you are mid range, you can immediately DACUS her endlag. If she transforms, either you can detonate (recommended at VERY high %) early, or detonate during her invincibility frames and punish Zelda accordingly with either tranq-->stick (ground recommended) or d-throw tech chase (platform recommended).

 

[BND]

@ cisyphus The problem with the analysis you gave is that smashers != general population; I'm fairly sure that, given the fact that most smashers are competitive, they did some sort of analysis on RPS. With that being said, I'd assume that their base RPS starter of choice is randomized (and actually away from rock for a good portion of them, if they read whatever study you had read), meaning that unless you know them fairly well you can't actually predict what they're going to throw out. The only game of RPS with strategy that you can play against smashers are long, presumably fast multi-round games.

(and people don't like that, apparently, so bleh.)

@ LupinX It's been a while since I played PM against a Sheik/Zelda, so I don't have a good idea of how long transform lasts anymore, but would like to note that both tranq -> stick and grab don't have many active frames, which poses a problem when considering that Zelda/Sheik's transform time is supposedly variable (Still have no idea by how much). With that being said, like in most fighting games where they catch recovering opponents with meaties, down air is perfect for this if you're close enough: the gap in between stomps is 6 frames for all but the first->second stomp, which is just enough to guarantee that you'll hit Sheik/Zelda during their recovery animation for those stomps, since the vulnerability times is 7 frames IIRC. You then get the option of last stomp -> sticky or not-last-stomp -> grab--basically the followups that you suggested, with more damage due to stomping. (The possibility of a mashout during a stick is present, though it's also present during a tranq -> stick)

 

[cisyphus]

DACUS from crouch is also very important when playing against Sheik(basically everyone else as well) because her needles cant touch you and if you are mid range, you can immediately DACUS her endlag.

Useful for punishing the cheeky standing needles but that's not honestly how most Sheiks utilize their needles. Crouching is just asking them to SH needle grab you (which is still beat by shield ->buffer spotdodge iirc).

If she transforms, either you can detonate (recommended at VERY high %) early, or detonate during her invincibility frames and punish Zelda accordingly with either tranq-->stick (ground recommended) or d-throw tech chase (platform recommended).

Reactionary Detonation is a pretty good option at any percent tbh. It gives you a positional advantage against a character that has very few good ways of getting down. the best Sheik can really do is b-reverse needle as a sliiiiight movement mixup, but it's nothing like Snake's grenade reverses. As for punishing Zelda, I'd honestly say immediately detonate the C4, and if you get the invincibility, run up and C4 them. Most Sheik/Zeldas I've played will hold shield out of their transform to prevent those kinds of followups. Maybe conditioning them to not shield would make this viable though.

@ BND I say this having implemented this in my RPS strats just fyi It's rather effective. It's not like I win unconditionally, but it's notably better than a 50/50.

 

[yink059]

Nah see the most common first move is Rock: your hand is already formed that way in the preparatory stage, and Rock has the psychological sturdiness and strength. Therefore, people are most likely to pick that, and least likely to pick Scissors, which loses to Rock. Paper is the safest first option, and the expectation is that they'll follow their same move again, meaning you play what you lose to in the result of a tie. There's a whole study about this believe it or not, I'll see if I can find it later.

https://youtu.be/_eanWnL3FtM

 

[BND]

https://youtu.be/_eanWnL3FtM

...oh jesus this commentary.
(too much time in between rounds for my liking though)

 

[cisyphus]

oh my god no

 

[Sylarius]

I think most rock paper scissors people play scissors vs me, the smart people will play paper or rock.

Sheik's transform can be used to remove sticky so easily I find it pretty lame especially when she already does so well against snake.

 

[LupinX]

I've gotten used to transform that I usually punish hard upon attempt,though I wish transform had a longer lasting hurtbox before the invincibility frames appear. Sad days Snake mains, our glory will come in 3.6 (kinda)

 

[yink059]

do we have frame data for sheik/zelda transform invincibility frames? we know c4 detonates on 22 and all i could find on shelda frames was 37 (33 IASA)

 

[BND]

They're more of "nonexistence frames" than invincibility frames, and it's dependent on console.

 

[LupinX]

They're more of "nonexistence frames" than invincibility frames, and it dependent on console.

Ya thats the thing. I play dolphin so transform is much faster and I am able to react when sheik/zelda appears. Is transform all the same in the wii or are there differences?

 

[cisyphus]

So I did some data gathering and the highest grenade throw Snake can do is actually shield->wavedash OOS into Smash throw up. Next highest is IGT Up/Up, then upward lob AGT up/up and then shield->wavedash OOS into normal throw up (those last two are mostly interchangeable). It's really good knowledge to have given:

the first option is the only one able to come close to Dreamland's ceiling (via top platform it'll probably make it?).
The first option is actually too high if done frame-perfect for most stages (unless you hit your target and cancel its momentum).
The Upward lob remains the most flexible imo, given you can walk a little to set up + air dodge in a lot of different ways in order to follow drift. It's unfortunately the most telegraphed.
You can also use the shield->wavedash OOS option to test how quickly you're acting out of grenade drop and waveland: it goes as high as the second white band of training room. Try to consistently get within a tile or two ^^

I'd like to hear opinions on Wavedash vs. IGT (@ BND ) considering I'm really bad at the IGT and don't know exactly what goes on within it. If you can use it to position yourself vertically for a smash throw, that'd be really cool with platforms, otherwise idk really. The dash options out of the wavedash seem really useful, considering you can JC up throw grenade.

Additionally, IGT is the best option for throwing grenades really far. From the center of Fountain of Dreams, the grenade actually reaches the blast zone and disappears before it explodes (so it's actually not good for edgeguarding). I wanna make an infographic sort of thing with all of the grenade edgeguarding possibilities (considering you have a HUGE amount of time to set up a followup and it provides a mental barrier for your opponent to overcome) as well, but that has to wait until my stream setup is reliable (i.e. my cables still aren't in after a month and a half <<).

I took some screenshots and will upload if y'all are interested though

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Annnnndddd 3.6 Changelog C/P here:

Snake Changelist
Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Adjusted hitboxes to match animation more accurately.
--2nd slash's damage increased (6% -> 8%). KB compensated.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial
--All hitboxes now last 4 frames each, instead of being 4-4-3.

-Forward Aerial
-Landing lag decreased from 30 frames -> 25.
-Auto cancel increased to 43 frames from 36.

-Back Aerial
--Reversed hitbox priority, making the sweetspot easier to hit.

-Up Aerial
--Reversed hitbox priority, making the sweetspot easier to hit.

-Down Aerial
--All hitboxes now last 4 frames each, instead of being 4-3-4-2.

Grabs
-Increased size of grabboxes a bit (3.185 -> 3.6), then moved them down/inward by the same radius. Result is that they have the same horizontal and upward range, but slightly more downward range to help grabbing in some odd scenarios, but still prevent grabbing against low-crouching opponents.
-Fixed a bug that caused his grab to interfere with charged specials.

Specials
-Side Special (Tranquilizer)
--Bullet is now intangible.
--Fixed bug where the bullet would not function correctly on hit.

-Down Special (C4)
--C4 creates a small flash graphic when it stickies someone.
--Aerial C4 drop has IASA on frame 23 instead of frame 28.
--IASA on sticky moved from frame 20 to 14.

Other
-Aerial mobility stat increased from 0.02 -> 0.045.
-Backwards getup roll while facing up invincibility: 31->25 (matches face down getup back roll).
-Powershield size multiplier increased from 0.73x to 0.75x

Ayyyeeee lmao

 

[yink059]

So I did some data gathering and the highest grenade throw Snake can do is actually shield->wavedash OOS into Smash throw up. Next highest is IGT Up/Up, then upward lob AGT up/up and then shield->wavedash OOS into normal throw up (those last two are mostly interchangeable). It's really good knowledge to have given:

the first option is the only one able to come close to Dreamland's ceiling (via top platform it'll probably make it?).
The first option is actually too high if done frame-perfect for most stages (unless you hit your target and cancel its momentum).
The Upward lob remains the most flexible imo, given you can walk a little to set up + air dodge in a lot of different ways in order to follow drift. It's unfortunately the most telegraphed.
You can also use the shield->wavedash OOS option to test how quickly you're acting out of grenade drop and waveland: it goes as high as the second white band of training room. Try to consistently get within a tile or two ^^

I'd like to hear opinions on Wavedash vs. IGT (@ BND ) considering I'm really bad at the IGT and don't know exactly what goes on within it. If you can use it to position yourself vertically for a smash throw, that'd be really cool with platforms, otherwise idk really. The dash options out of the wavedash seem really useful, considering you can JC up throw grenade.

Additionally, IGT is the best option for throwing grenades really far. From the center of Fountain of Dreams, the grenade actually reaches the blast zone and disappears before it explodes (so it's actually not good for edgeguarding). I wanna make an infographic sort of thing with all of the grenade edgeguarding possibilities (considering you have a HUGE amount of time to set up a followup and it provides a mental barrier for your opponent to overcome) as well, but that has to wait until my stream setup is reliable (i.e. my cables still aren't in after a month and a half <<).

I took some screenshots and will upload if y'all are interested though

with a mine on a side platform a hard but maybe effective edge guard is a grenade>wd oos onto ledge and a roll back/ get up? If timed right you cover platform, ledge and stage near the ledge.

 

[LupinX]

So Snake can now grab sleeping characters. I love this changelist already <3

 

[BND]

Hrrm; 3.6 changelog seems promising. Was hoping they'd do something about ftilt and/or grenades, though overall I'm fairly satisfied with the changes :>

I'd like to hear opinions on Wavedash vs. IGT (@ BND ) considering I'm really bad at the IGT and don't know exactly what goes on within it. If you can use it to position yourself vertically for a smash throw, that'd be really cool with platforms, otherwise idk really. The dash options out of the wavedash seem really useful, considering you can JC up throw grenade.

Additionally, IGT is the best option for throwing grenades really far. From the center of Fountain of Dreams, the grenade actually reaches the blast zone and disappears before it explodes (so it's actually not good for edgeguarding). I wanna make an infographic sort of thing with all of the grenade edgeguarding possibilities (considering you have a HUGE amount of time to set up a followup and it provides a mental barrier for your opponent to overcome) as well, but that has to wait until my stream setup is reliable (i.e. my cables still aren't in after a month and a half <<).

Two things:
1. The thing about IGT is that it can be done with a grenade in hand. With that being said, the advantage of an IGT against opponents coming down from above is that IGT (or rather, aerial throws in general) moves slower, meaning that you technically have a larger window of time to hit your opponent. If you're good at aiming grenades, though, smash toss up is always the better option.
2. Another thing about IGT as mentioned in the guide is that it's basically a wavedash while throwing a grenade. It's useful for getting away from an approaching opponent while laying out a (delayed) hitbox. Was too lazy to find an actual example of this being effective in gameplay, but https://youtu.be/Snhvp7TRuuE?t=84 sets a "what if" scenario of me actually cooking the grenade properly and not being affected by a tourney environment.
3a. Trivia, but the really far IGT is actually an aerial throw converted into a smash throw via landing. It's basically a wavedash -> grenade throw, but it has 10 frames of advantage.
3b. With that being said, correction: IGTing a grenade with a horizontal angled airdodge and directing it upwards produces the farthest grenade up throw.
4. There's actually a huge weakness, basic weakness that IGT (largely) covers but wavedash grenade does not, to the point where I'm reasonably confident that I can successfully 1v1 most to all Snakes without too much of an issue. Most people on this forum don't seem to have IGT down pat though, so I'm hoping to delay the 20xx scenario here.

(Irrelevant, but I actually tried making an infographic for IGT threat ranges. The physics of the grenade throw (even the estimates) compounded with my programming rust makes me not actually want to do it, though I may post it after a while)

Also, if you're looking for grenade edgeguarding strategies, I don't know if any other good ones exist, but the video I linked has one of the better ones IMO, if you're interested. Wrecks 90% of Roys on recovery (though the only Roy I've played was my friend's pocket Roy, unfortunately), and screws around with Marth's own recovery. (It presumably wrecks many more characters, though I haven't gotten the opportunity to test it) I sort of advise you not to dig too deep into this rabbit hole and accept that that's basically the only reliable one that doesn't involve lobbing a grenade at your opponent and hoping you time it right, for various reasons.

 

[cisyphus]

yeah I mean the amount of angles/positions possible with the grenade is pretty intense. I think even against like Kirby or D3 or Fox where they have lots of different options available it'll be really useful.

One additional point I forgot about: using attack stick actually makes c-stick up do a normal throw rather than a smash throw (weird) so those of us (I think just me and Lupin?) using attack stick have to just do the smash input manually. I honestly think it's easier/better that way, so hey.