A Snake Social

[cisyphus]

yeah, you just need to use the 4 vertexes (straight up/down/left/right). iirc doing tilts with the c-stick (rather than smashes) will also do Nair.

This is the standard control scheme. All attack stick does is replace the fsmash windows with jab/tilt. Think of Jab as "back tilt" and it makes a lot of sense.

 

[LupinX]

So I'm guessing up and down c-stick are still smashes?

 

[cisyphus]

Yup! That'd be really bad if they were tilts.

 

[cisyphus]

Has anyone else taken to smash DIing C4 damage boosts while recovering? It's GODLIKE. Up at low percents and down at high percents to increase chances of survival respectively. You may even be able to SDI left/right to set up for stage techs that normally aren't possible, too.

 

[LupinX]

C4 damage as in blowing yourself up and DI'ing opposite? Ya I've done it i think lol

I found attack c-stick pretty weird cause the response is sometimes not there... but I learned how to f-tilt out of duck manually and consistently and jab out of duck consistently as well.... mostly f-tilt anyways lol

 

[BND]

While SDI C4 upwards at low percents is something that seems like a good idea, I'm questioning the idea of SDIing left/right for increasing the chances of stage techs and down at high percents. I can't think of a scenario in which you can't reach the stage for a stagetech (The only times I miss the stage while trying to blow myself up is when I'm actively aiming for the lip of the stage to prevent myself from getting pineappled, like on PS2), and the effects of SDI downwards at high percents is minimal and likely detrimental: might as well blow up the C4 slightly later and control your standard DI better to go where you want.

 

[cisyphus]

The thing about SDIing to the sides is that you don't have to be in a specific position to hit the ledge, or more accurately, the specific position becomes much wider. The angle at which you can DI into the stage is pretty shallow, meaning you have to be relatively close, meaning Marth can have free reign to jump out and Bair you because you're close and he feels safe doing it. Additionally, it is actually sometimes beneficial to miss the ledge for various reasons, usually when an opponent is waiting and expecting you to go to ledge. At higher percents though, going high isn't an option, so SDI down helps to make it one. Simply going lower can also result in accidental SDs if your timing is a touch off. SDI down also reduces the overall relevant height in which you're in hitstun, meaning you can act out of it and react to whatever your opponent might do to punish it. There might also be timing mixups that are relevant to the discussion, but that's getting to a point where your opponent is making readings against your recoveries.

I found attack c-stick pretty weird cause the response is sometimes not there... but I learned how to f-tilt out of duck manually and consistently and jab out of duck consistently as well.... mostly f-tilt anyways lol

I prefer it for frame-perfect dash-> crouch ->f-tilt and the aforementioned max distance nair from ledge. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you master its nuances it's invaluable. When you say the response isn't there, what do you mean though? I've noticed that sometimes I can't Cypher Cancel bair with c-stick, so I wonder if it's just me or if it's some problem in the game's handling of the situation.

 

[BND]

yeah, you just need to use the 4 vertexes (straight up/down/left/right). iirc doing tilts with the c-stick (rather than smashes) will also do Nair.

This is the standard control scheme. All attack stick does is replace the fsmash windows with jab/tilt. Think of Jab as "back tilt" and it makes a lot of sense.

Just a note (and not sure if I'm interpreting your comment correctly), but I think Kadano intended this diagram to be for usage of the control stick in conjunction with the A button, not for the C stick. It sort of becomes obvious when you consider the fact that there's no option to replace the Cstick with the attack button (and that as far as I know, Csticks not set to attack can't jab, no matter what input you use).

 

[cisyphus]

I'm well aware of its function and believe that I properly correlated my purposes into the original diagram. Any time you use a-stick in Wait, you get those same options, except the f-smash windows are removed completely, and only Jab and f-tilt are possible in lieu of that absence. because a-stick is a combination input of A + direction, the diagram serves my purposes adequately to explain how that relationship works. Maybe I should've also specified that the u-tilt and d-tilt windows are invalid, but meh.

 

[LupinX]

I prefer it for frame-perfect dash-> crouch ->f-tilt and the aforementioned max distance nair from ledge. It definitely takes some getting used to, but once you master its nuances it's invaluable. When you say the response isn't there, what do you mean though? I've noticed that sometimes I can't Cypher Cancel bair with c-stick, so I wonder if it's just me or if it's some problem in the game's handling of the situation.

I've missed my cypher u-air and b-air sometimes. I think you need to be smack-dab straight up/down/left/right for it to work... a slight angle may contribute to this. So i reverted back to smash c-stick

 

[LupinX]

how do you initiate Snake's d-air so the 4th kick hits? I've been doin quick SH d-air but it only manages to get 3.

 

[BND]

how do you initiate Snake's d-air so the 4th kick hits? I've been doin quick SH d-air but it only manages to get 3.

The 4th hit's possible if you don't fastfall.

 

[LupinX]

Is it possible to powershield the grenade explosion while held? If yes, then theres so much possibilities you can do with it lol

 

[BND]

It's technically possible, and if you pull it off you get a nice hitbox for coverage + massive frame advantage, but:
1. Letting go of shield has 20+ frames of lag, meaning that you either get one chance to do it from a standing position or you'll be standing there stuck in shield lag.
2. Nobody's going to let you do that. If you get too close, they may throw out a hitbox, or they might not. Regardless, if you can powershield grenades consistently, might as well powershield everything the opponent throws out too for even more frame advantage, since you'll need to get ready for that as well. Even then, they can grab you too.

In the end, while it'd be great if we could do it, it's not really convenient it from a difficulty perspective. Obviously you should try powershielding all of your grenades if possible, but if you can't, nobody would mind anyways.

 

[LupinX]

Thanks a bunch, I am currently practicing powershielding both projectiles and attacks and this idea came across to me and was wondering if it's possible. Sucks theres no real advantage coming out of that lol

 

[cisyphus]

Honestly I could see some aggressive dashdancing with grenade in hand into a powershield to be useful. It's certainly a good way to get intimately familiar with the grenades' timing, at the very least. This would be especially true if you pick up an opponent's hesitance to attack while a grenade is present. Additionally, in situations where percentages are disparate (to the point that Snake will get out of the grenade hitstun first) you can use it as a cheeky setup into a u-air or C4 KO. Complicated stuff.

 

[LupinX]

Honestly I could see some aggressive dashdancing with grenade in hand into a powershield to be useful. It's certainly a good way to get intimately familiar with the grenades' timing, at the very least. This would be especially true if you pick up an opponent's hesitance to attack while a grenade is present. Additionally, in situations where percentages are disparate (to the point that Snake will get out of the grenade hitstun first) you can use it as a cheeky setup into a u-air or C4 KO. Complicated stuff.

I was having the idea of running to an opponent, powershield the explosion to a grab, stick etc. It could make Snake's neutral game a little more interesting

 

[cisyphus]

I don't think that's viable tbh. I also think that's what BND had in mind.

Powershield does also have some downtime before it actually allows you to act, so the opponent might straight up get launched before you can grab.

 

[LupinX]

Ah, alright thanks guys

Do you know how to fight Sonic? I swear his moves are meant to counter Snake xD

 

[yink059]

existing hitboxes. his hurtbox is bigger than his hitbox on some of his moves. lots of bairs, mines and grenades.

 

[LupinX]

What stages benefit Snake the most? What are your go-to stages when you don't know what to counterpick against your opponent (or most likely don't know the match-up)

 

[BND]

I personally prefer, as I told my friend, the “DeepDarkStages“: basically stages like Norfair, Fountain, questionably FD depending on how much advantage the opponent gets there (Not recommended if you like abusing platforms), Drac’s (not legal), and hopefully Drac’s replacement once it comes out in 3.6. In other words, stages with a reasonably low and not that high ceiling (I’d say a good benchmark is dying at around 170-180 with a grenade from the mid-top platform; at dreamland you die at ~250%, for reference), and a very low lower blast zone (Two cypher distances is a good benchmark for that). Obviously, this setup results in decently fast C4 kills and a good recovery.

Stages with decently short platforms like BF, possible PS2, and, once again, Fountain, also seem to be popular choices.

 

[cisyphus]

It depends a lot on platstyle tbh. Prof REALLY likes Green Hill Zone while I think it's pretty **** overall.

Battlefield is my #1 stage, but I did a huge tech skill binge there one day and am super comfortable with it.

 

[yink059]

I prefer to play aggressively overall so stages like GHZ/FoD/YS/BF are my go-to. smashville/PS2 is ok, SV not being my favorite. i try to avoid dreamland/FD, really only going to dreamland if i want to adjust to the matchup and just try to download the player/matchup.

 

[cisyphus]

But yeah on the real, it'd be cool if we all compiled our go-to bans vs. every character or at least do some theorycrafting on that aspect. e.g I don't know how to deal with Kirby outside of platform camping him so what do I do when they ban FOD and Dreamland and I already won on Battlefield? (take them to WWI obvs) that kinda thing. I only just now realized that my habit for picking FD and PS2 vs. Falcon is actually really bad since they can abuse their movement and carry Snake across the stage to combo into KOs. lul

 

[LupinX]

I usually take very light characters to Dreamland/FD due to the fact I will still kill em off top while taking alot of % and still surviving. I take heavy characters to medium stages because I can kill them faster plus I won't get smothered close range (Bowser in Warioware ). For combo-heavy characters, preferably small stages so they won't try to over-combo me to oblivion.

 

[LupinX]

Oh question,
When you have C-stick on Attack, why can't you up throw with it? Do I need to put it in a particular angle?

 

[cisyphus]

??? I'm confused as to what your question is

 

[BND]

If you use the Cstick as smash and grab someone, you can input cstick in a direction to throw them in that direction. With Cstick as attack, it just pummels. If you hold down A and press C-stick in a direction, it does nothing.

With that being said, no idea why the question's being asked, but the obvious hypothesis is that cstick set as attack is actually a macro for direction pressed at most radius 55 + attack at the same time, since the throw threshold and smash input/jump thresholds are the same, but that doesn't explain why cstick inputs perform up and down smashes, so I'm sort of at a loss too. Doesn't seem like something you should worry about too much, though, so all is well.

 

[LupinX]

Pretty much this. And when I up-b out of shield into and aerial (u-air), it won't respond lol

Question, can grenades do explosive damage on the spacies when they are in shine?

 

[BND]

Explosions aren't considered projectiles (If they were, it'd be pretty weird regarding hitbox timing calculation and weird in general taking the hitbox into consideration), but the grenade explosion is still a property of the grenade. With that being said, it will do amplified damage if you time it so that it explodes right after it hits a reflector.

 

[cisyphus]

The up air I'm not sure about. I never personally have problems (it's back air that doesn't seem to work) but it may just be the muscle memory of it tbh.

 

[LupinX]

Because 3.6 is coming up, and if there are changes to Snake, will it be announced or we will have to wait until release? Because they revealed changes for Zelda in her character thread in 3.6

 

[cisyphus]

link me? I've heard ruminations across MI about certain changes to x character. Apparently the biggest delay is actually homogenizing Snake's grab releases (!!!) and they're having trouble making it work.

 

[LupinX]

http://smashboards.com/threads/song-of-time-zeldas-changes-in-pm-3-6-hype.370699/page-5 Zelda's 3.6 changes

what do you mean by homogenizing Snake's grab release? Is it a good thing?

 

[yink059]

I roomed with calabrel (a pm dev) at sandstorm and he didn't say much about snake changes, or at least nothing too big, just small stuff.

 

[LupinX]

I roomed with calabrel (a pm dev) at sandstorm and he didn't say much about snake changes, or at least nothing too big, just small stuff.

Let's hope it's for the good of the character

 

[cisyphus]

Let's hope it's awful for Snake and he becomes bottom tier so I can main Olimar in 3.6

 

[cisyphus]

so I only just realized that doing actual down tilts (refer to the chart at the top of the page) is waaaay faster than doing them out of a crouch. If you hold down completely to downtilt, you waste 4 frames to avoid a down smash input. I think this could also be an interesting way of forcing whiffed aerials since down tilt puts snake's hitbox way lower frame 1 vs. his crouch animation (which takes ~ 6 frames to reach the same height). It also takes 8 frames to reach Snake's fully crouched position, which has implications on his crawl tilt, forcing it to only be available after Snake's crouch is finished. So it's suuuuper slow.

 

[LupinX]

so I only just realized that doing actual down tilts (refer to the chart at the top of the page) is waaaay faster than doing them out of a crouch. If you hold down completely to downtilt, you waste 4 frames to avoid a down smash input. I think this could also be an interesting way of forcing whiffed aerials since down tilt puts snake's hitbox way lower frame 1 vs. his crouch animation (which takes ~ 6 frames to reach the same height). It also takes 8 frames to reach Snake's fully crouched position, which has implications on his crawl tilt, forcing it to only be available after Snake's crouch is finished. So it's suuuuper slow.

Will you be able to return to stand-up position when you d-tilt without crouching?