A Snake Social

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
yeah I mean the amount of angles/positions possible with the grenade is pretty intense. I think even against like Kirby or D3 or Fox where they have lots of different options available it'll be really useful.
It's actually not too bad if you assume that the grenade can be stationary before the throw. It's just that I really don't want to program in the equations used .-.
(not to mention that said equations are approximations at best barring a bit of calculus usage (Apparently there's vertical air resistance for items or something), which really doesn't seem worth it to spade out + program in + explain)

EDIT: Oops; not sure why but for some reason I thought an infographic was a massive GIF compilation or something.
 
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Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Oh I've already collected frame data for stuff, ex:
Frame 20 = FAF for shield drop
Frame 21 = lob begins
Frame 26 = Snake is airborne via jump OOS = FAF for air item grab
Frame 27 = FAF for IGT
Frame 28 = grenade becomes active (I've only checked upward lob)
Frame 37 = FAF out of WD OOS
Frame 45 = Snake's FAF out of upward lob
Frame 58 = Earliest to AGT with a Full Hop on upward lob

I was just gonna get the data for forward throw, neutral throw, and Roll and compile it all with various cook timings (probably 10 frame delay intervals) and then collect screenshots and lighten them all together.
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
JC but what changes were you looking for to Nades and Ftilt? @ BND BND
I think the grenades @ BND BND was talking about is the port priority aspect where higher port gets safe from grenade. I believe he said if Snake gets grabbed, grenades disappear and such. Forward tilt I don't know
Not quite; sort of close in terms of intent, but it's a good amount different in terms of concept, and it largely revolves around getting unreasonable buffs that might not make physical sense centered around those two moves. I'd rather not say until the general metagame and standard of tech ability evolves a bit more, until I've found some sort of answer to the problem, and/or I've confirmed that Snake's buffed enough that it wouldn't dumpster most Snake players on this subforum.

Long story short, some aspects of the current largely-accepted meta revolving around ftilt and grenade probably aren't sustainable.
 
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Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
9
I recently picked up Snake about a month ago and he's a blast. The one thing that's really hanging me up is edgeguarding. My gameplan is pretty much to throw them off stage and plant a claymore close to the ledge and try to cover which way they'll get up from there but i feel like I'm missing something and my
edgeguards feel really flaccid.

Am i barking up the right tree or should i be trying to go off stage as Snake?
 
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Here's my edgeguarding flow chart in a nutshell:
1. If they're going high, create a situation in which it'll be difficult to land safely. This means covering space with mines, grenades, and mortars. If there are platforms, put a mine on the platform AND position yourself to make use of their reluctance to land there. Snake has amazing anti airs in Cypher, up air, up tilt, and up smash.

2. Continue this until they're unable to go high anymore, which means they're going low. Generally speaking, this is when you should be grabbing ledge, as that gives you the positioning you need to cover fast horizontal recoveries, gain invincibility, and allows you to ledgehog quickly. Alternatively, you could stand close to edge with the intent of wavedashing to ledge quickly, which gives you more flexibility if they decide to go low instead, of it it's a character like Fox who can still go high despite being low relative to the stage. There's lots of permutations here and it really depends a lot on what character you're edgeguarding.

3. With land mines, a huge mistake I see newer players make is to not synthesize these two aspects together. Many times in smash, a character's recovery can be made ambiguous, in a way that "just hold ledge" isn't enough and you need to do something more. That's where the mine at the ledge comes in, but if you yourself are not holding ledge that loses to sweetspot. So you need to hold ledge AND prevent recoveries that fall in the middle of your two zones. Basically, I'm telling you to wavedash to ledge after planting a mine. You have many options with invincibility frames to get through the mine which are not afforded to your opponent: ledge roll, ledge stand, waveland, and ledge jump all can detonate mines safely.

4. Now, a huge mistake I see more veteran but still inexperienced players make is that they place the mine and wavedash to ledge in times where it's not opportune, that is, when their opponent won't be KO'd by it. If they are below KO percentage from mine (or from the combination mine + c4) you shouldn't place a mine at the ledge and should instead seek to get a conversion off of their non-sweetspot recovery. This conversion might still be the mine, mind you; juggling is a very real skill that Snake has, but it's not always as good as simply resetting your edgeguard with a ledge stand back throw or a free ledge hop c4 or a free ledgehop tranq (Marth, Sheik, and Falcon all fall prey to this complex).

5. Finally, understand what tools you have to counteract certain recoveries. Back air is traditionally your best option as it has a large, active hitbox and a good trajectory for the occasion while also allowing you to regrab ledge after using it. Down air is another good option, as is Cypher. Fair has some situational usefulness that I want to explore more. Footstool is also something I've been experimenting with a lot more. Some recoveries have a Marth Killer susceptibility which is invaluable and changes how you coordinate your edgeguard resources.

Here is an example: I catch Marth with a back air on Battlefield at 70% and he gets sent far off stage because he misses the DI, but he's still high. He has a c4 on him, but it won't KO at this percentage. What I would do here is plant a mine on the side platform about 1/3 of the way in. This cuts off a lot of the high recovery options Marth would have. From here, I would set up the Marth killer by rolling toward ledge and read where his movement is taking him. if I see that he's coming in horizontally, I might SH back (the mine isn't close enough for it to bother me) to sniff out a bad side b or double jump that I could stuff with a back air, or I can actually tap back on my stick and fast fall to ledge due to how this positioning works. If I see that the Marth is going low to try and beat the Marth Killer, I'll set it up anyway and shield DI my way to ledge so that I can ledge hop up air Marth and KO with the C4. If I didn't have a C4 available here, I probably would focus much more on the back air since Marth only really gets one shot in this scenario. I would still set up the Marth killer regardless, but I might opt to try to ledgehop invincible back air his up b instead to secure the KO outright. Or I could opt to Marth killer the sweetspot attempt and then ledgehop c4 him if he managed to get on the stage, because Marth still has considerable landing lag on his up B. It depends a lot how the game is going and how comfortable I feel with that. The cruel thing here is that, without C4, Marth's best option is actually to go toward the mine and potentially get hit by it (he could possibly air dodge through it which is why we don't get to ledge right away; we still try to cover this with our SH or FH back air after rolling toward ledge). That's the essence of edgeguarding: cover all possible paths back to the stage with something that will either KO outright or set up for a KO.

Everything I described here requires quite a lot from the snake; knowledge of the opponent's recovery options, foresight for how and why certain options are good or bad for that character, knowledge of Snake's hitboxes and KO percentages, knowledge of Snake's movement, and the expectation of doing all of this simultaneously in a time-sensitive situation without flubbing any given inputs. That's a lot, but if you manage it, recovering against Snake is simply impossible.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
9
Here's my edgeguarding flow chart in a nutshell:
1. If they're going high, create a situation in which it'll be difficult to land safely. This means covering space with mines, grenades, and mortars. If there are platforms, put a mine on the platform AND position yourself to make use of their reluctance to land there. Snake has amazing anti airs in Cypher, up air, up tilt, and up smash.

2. Continue this until they're unable to go high anymore, which means they're going low. Generally speaking, this is when you should be grabbing ledge, as that gives you the positioning you need to cover fast horizontal recoveries, gain invincibility, and allows you to ledgehog quickly. Alternatively, you could stand close to edge with the intent of wavedashing to ledge quickly, which gives you more flexibility if they decide to go low instead, of it it's a character like Fox who can still go high despite being low relative to the stage. There's lots of permutations here and it really depends a lot on what character you're edgeguarding.

3. With land mines, a huge mistake I see newer players make is to not synthesize these two aspects together. Many times in smash, a character's recovery can be made ambiguous, in a way that "just hold ledge" isn't enough and you need to do something more. That's where the mine at the ledge comes in, but if you yourself are not holding ledge that loses to sweetspot. So you need to hold ledge AND prevent recoveries that fall in the middle of your two zones. Basically, I'm telling you to wavedash to ledge after planting a mine. You have many options with invincibility frames to get through the mine which are not afforded to your opponent: ledge roll, ledge stand, waveland, and ledge jump all can detonate mines safely.

4. Now, a huge mistake I see more veteran but still inexperienced players make is that they place the mine and wavedash to ledge in times where it's not opportune, that is, when their opponent won't be KO'd by it. If they are below KO percentage from mine (or from the combination mine + c4) you shouldn't place a mine at the ledge and should instead seek to get a conversion off of their non-sweetspot recovery. This conversion might still be the mine, mind you; juggling is a very real skill that Snake has, but it's not always as good as simply resetting your edgeguard with a ledge stand back throw or a free ledge hop c4 or a free ledgehop tranq (Marth, Sheik, and Falcon all fall prey to this complex).

5. Finally, understand what tools you have to counteract certain recoveries. Back air is traditionally your best option as it has a large, active hitbox and a good trajectory for the occasion while also allowing you to regrab ledge after using it. Down air is another good option, as is Cypher. Fair has some situational usefulness that I want to explore more. Footstool is also something I've been experimenting with a lot more. Some recoveries have a Marth Killer susceptibility which is invaluable and changes how you coordinate your edgeguard resources.

Here is an example: I catch Marth with a back air on Battlefield at 70% and he gets sent far off stage because he misses the DI, but he's still high. He has a c4 on him, but it won't KO at this percentage. What I would do here is plant a mine on the side platform about 1/3 of the way in. This cuts off a lot of the high recovery options Marth would have. From here, I would set up the Marth killer by rolling toward ledge and read where his movement is taking him. if I see that he's coming in horizontally, I might SH back (the mine isn't close enough for it to bother me) to sniff out a bad side b or double jump that I could stuff with a back air, or I can actually tap back on my stick and fast fall to ledge due to how this positioning works. If I see that the Marth is going low to try and beat the Marth Killer, I'll set it up anyway and shield DI my way to ledge so that I can ledge hop up air Marth and KO with the C4. If I didn't have a C4 available here, I probably would focus much more on the back air since Marth only really gets one shot in this scenario. I would still set up the Marth killer regardless, but I might opt to try to ledgehop invincible back air his up b instead to secure the KO outright. Or I could opt to Marth killer the sweetspot attempt and then ledgehop c4 him if he managed to get on the stage, because Marth still has considerable landing lag on his up B. It depends a lot how the game is going and how comfortable I feel with that. The cruel thing here is that, without C4, Marth's best option is actually to go toward the mine and potentially get hit by it (he could possibly air dodge through it which is why we don't get to ledge right away; we still try to cover this with our SH or FH back air after rolling toward ledge). That's the essence of edgeguarding: cover all possible paths back to the stage with something that will either KO outright or set up for a KO.

Everything I described here requires quite a lot from the snake; knowledge of the opponent's recovery options, foresight for how and why certain options are good or bad for that character, knowledge of Snake's hitboxes and KO percentages, knowledge of Snake's movement, and the expectation of doing all of this simultaneously in a time-sensitive situation without flubbing any given inputs. That's a lot, but if you manage it, recovering against Snake is simply impossible.
.

Awesome thank you. This is going to help me a lot.
 

gameplayzero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
247
Location
California
NNID
RetroBlaze
Hey guys. Going to main snake and finally enter the pm tourney scene with him. Just need to do some data hunting here and watch videos/practice until i'm ready. Looking forward to joining you guys and hopefully getting some videos up for critiquing!
 
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