A short opinion about Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Brawl is fun.

MK is bogus in many areas but oh well nothing that can be done I suppose. Not much different than Sheik ****** low tiers in Melee. The only character I can develop is Lucario, and for many players it's the same where they are limited in selection, I have a hard time multi-maining characters 2 is usually my max.

For low tiered characters it's just how it is in any fighting game, they are hard to utilize because they aren't as good as the higher tiered characters. I could work on making my Roy better but I still have to deal with Sheik and Ice Climbers being near impossible at high levels or play. It's great to see people put effort into these characters but like you said, some people want to play to win so being able to use a low tier well isn't going to get people browny points.

 

[Lythium]

Math doesn't takes sides.

My point, exactly.

 

[Ruuku]

>____>

IQ is randomly distributed but on average someone else's IQ will be lower than mine (given that I have an IQ >100)

if you spawn 5 million items and each time put MK and ganon on a random position as well, MK will grab more items than ganon. that is the average we mean. if the item spawns on equal distance MK will obviously be first but there is alse an area where the item is closer to ganon but MK will still be first. now if this area is 5% closer to ganon the ratio will be 55% of the area for MK and 45% for ganon, thus MK will also get 55% of the item.

I seriously don't see how you don't get this

The thing is that you've chosen to overlook many factors to calculate that average.

 

[Big-Cat]

For low tiered characters it's just how it is in any fighting game, they are hard to utilize because they aren't as good as the higher tiered characters. I could work on making my Roy better but I still have to deal with Sheik and Ice Climbers being near impossible at high levels or play. It's great to see people put effort into these characters but like you said, some people want to play to win so being able to use a low tier well isn't going to get people browny points.

If certain matchups are just impossible, that's just saying that the distance between tiers is very bad and/or matchups are just lopsided.

While it is true that fighting games in general have this, it's not like most recent fighters have had balance problems as large as Brawl, or so I've heard.

And this isn't supposed to offend you because I think I've asked this before and I don't remember the answer. Do you play any other fighting games? Again, this is just a normal question as you're not acting like you're talking out of your ***.

@Ruuku
You mean like the sin against game design aka random tripping?

 

[Deleted member]

The thing is that you've chosen to overlook many factors to calculate that average.

such as?

 

[PK-ow!]

The thing is that you've chosen to overlook many factors to calculate that average.

No, you're being stubborn.
As an aside before I do more math for you, if anyone were arguing with you, then objected that you didn't handle relevant points, what kind of thought-process would you think is going on if that person did not, in the same breath, attempt to list some of those points? You know, some sort of preview. Even a little hint. No, that person just said 'u fail kthx'.
Apologize, first of all.


The interplay between the stage-position-as-a-function-of-time of a character, and the appearance of items on a stage, can be treated as one random event indexed to each particular character. I can define a random variable X to be the distance (or a vector-space distance function) from the character to the point of appearance of a single item that spawns. A random variable is a real-valued quantity that is manipulated in respect of probabilities that the variable X takes a certain value x (little x).

With the distance function, and taking as given a movement ability of each character (velocity v), I have provided everything needed for the time-to-reach-item function, t = x / v. With a random variable, I can consider a time random variable defined by the distance random variable, T = X / v. This means I treat T as taking values at random with the probability that T = t equal to the probability the equation is true with X = x = tv. The speed v is a constant that applies to the character. (Forewarning, if you object to me calling the speed a constant in this context, I'm done. Sophistication of the distance function can make the 'velocity' of the character literally a constant.)

Now all there is to say is that the T's over any two characters are random variables in the same event-space, and I can compute statistics of any T. I could tell you its distribution, mean, standard deviations, maximum, and expected value.
I can then easily tell you that MK's T's expected value is less than Ganon's T. I could probably say more things like MK's T - Ganon's T, as a function, is largely positive (mean > 0). I could draw two graphs and we could see things about it that are simpler to see than to state. Ganon's probably has huge variance and MK's has little. Since they're both bounded below at 0, Ganon's stretches out to huge spans of time in the worst case where MK's can't be that bad.
In every measure, Ganon is slower at getting items.

So, rather than the idea of something random making 'average' a nonsense term, in fact, that we are speaking of randomness is WHY we can say something on average. Like, duh. If it wasn't random, then one just would be the absolute answer. Someone would have said "MK gets the item first."
As usual, I put up your obstinance to a Human trait of wanting to cover for the initial blunder.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If certain matchups are just impossible, that's just saying that the distance between tiers is very bad and/or matchups are just lopsided.

While it is true that fighting games in general have this, it's not like most recent fighters have had balance problems as large as Brawl, or so I've heard.

And this isn't supposed to offend you because I think I've asked this before and I don't remember the answer. Do you play any other fighting games? Again, this is just a normal question as you're not acting like you're talking out of your ***.

It's ok I'm not offended.

SF2, SF3S, SF4, SSF4, MvC, MvC2, TvC, MvC3, Most of the Gamecube/Wii Naruto fighting games, Melty Blood, Immaterial and Missing Power,

I've tried each of these competitively at one point in time or another.

Street Fighter is pretty tame with bad MUs, unless you get Akuma in 2 or Zangeif vs Seth. SF is a lot better than Smash for this.

MvC series before 3 had some pretty god awful MUs many of which are far worse than Smash's in terms of being terrible.

Naruto has never been balanced well from what I've played, Rev 3 being pretty bad for a recent one. Kiba and Kankuro are banned, Hiruko is by far near broken, a Hinata has an infinite as easy as DDD's on everyone and yet she isn't as good as Hiruko. Series has been far worse than Smash in terms of bad MUs and roaster inbalance.

TvC I don't think is that bad for the cast, tiers were present but I don't know how viable this cast was off hand.

I can't speak much for Melty Blood the game has each character with 3 forms and it can change match-ups based on it while I have no clue on what the balance is since I lightly touched that game.

Same for Immaterial and Missing Power.

That is where I am basing this from for the most part.

 

[Ruuku]

such as?

What the items do, stages and hazards, character's hit-boxes, and of course the fact that they are battling while attempting to retrieve the items.

@Ruuku
You mean like the sin against game design aka random tripping?

Would you care to explain what makes you refer to random tripping as a sin against game design?

No, you're being stubborn.
As an aside before I do more math for you, if anyone were arguing with you, then objected that you didn't handle relevant points, what kind of thought-process would you think is going on if that person did not, in the same breath, attempt to list some of those points? You know, some sort of preview. Even a little hint. No, that person just said 'u fail kthx'.
Apologize, first of all.

If you can show me some sort of universal social script that backs this up, then I will gladly follow your "order" and apologize. Now I personally don't see a reason for an apology since The Paprika Killer probably didn't see things the way you did, as he simply asked for a list.

So, rather than the idea of something random making 'average' a nonsense term, in fact, that we are speaking of randomness is WHY we can say something on average. Like, duh. If it wasn't random, then one just would be the absolute answer. Someone would have said "MK gets the item first."
As usual, I put up your obstinance to a Human trait of wanting to cover for the initial blunder.

I think you're misinterpreting my desire to gather concrete information. My only purpose was to see if any of that research actually had been taken on.

 

[§witch]

There's no research to be done. MK has a faster air and running speed than ganon so he has a higher chance of getting items. That's it.

 

[Zankoku]

Would you care to explain what makes you refer to random tripping as a sin against game design?

This was an interesting wording to me, so I thought I'd provide an actual book reference.

 

[Ruuku]

This was an interesting wording to me, so I thought I'd provide an actual book reference.

Ankoku, that was amazing and it was instantly saved.

 

[Big-Cat]

Would you care to explain what makes you refer to random tripping as a sin against game design?

What good is there in giving just moving an inherent risk?

 

[ChKn]

MK is bogus in many areas but oh well nothing that can be done I suppose. Not much different than Sheik ****** low tiers in Melee. The only character I can develop is Lucario, and for many players it's the same where they are limited in selection, I have a hard time multi-maining characters 2 is usually my max.

Ban MK obviously.

It'll never happen though. I could make a list of every tournament attendance and see where that goes. However, there are too many factors attached. ./offtopic.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

What the items do, stages and hazards, character's hit-boxes, and of course the fact that they are battling while attempting to retrieve the items.

No, he didn't. The only thing tPK was talking about was getting to the item based on speed. The rest of the things you mentioned are completely irrelevant to THAT point.

 

[Ruuku]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you practice or have practiced anything other than SSBB at a "competitive" level?

 

[Big-Cat]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you practice or have practiced anything other than SSBB at a "competitive" level?

Both SFIV titles, tried and was overwhelmed by the insanity in MvC3, and lack of a scene for BBCS (though I still aim to get better).

 

[Ruuku]

Both SFIV titles, tried and was overwhelmed by the insanity in MvC3, and lack of a scene for BBCS (though I still aim to get better).

Yeah I find it rather sad that there no love for BBCS.

 

[Sephy95]

I'd like to point out that some items can be used differently depending on which char and item. Example: A Ganny uses a fan on Marth but Marth can upB out of it. Now Peach uses a fan on Marth but Marth can't upB out of it cuz she swings it much faster. Just saying. Don't know if anyone said something like this or if it even matters anymore but watever...

 

[HolyOrderChipp]

What I meant was, an items property doesn't change based on who's hand it's in.

Beam Sword? Or did that change from Melee? Also Home Run Bat I guess? Fan I suppose, too, as the poster above me says.

Not to mention that the strategic implications of an item are way different depending on who has it. Let's take Mr. Saturn as a very simple example. Ganondorf, lacking a projectile, treats it way differently from Mario. It can be more valuable to him, as a good way to approach (Toss while moving). Et cetera. Any given item can be better or worse depending on who holds it. And whom it's against. Maybe character X really doesn't like fighting Rayguns, but character Y couldn't care less about the projectile spam.

And yes, more mobile characters will tend to get more items. So it shifts things around, and does Ganondorf no favors. I don't pretend to know if it would improve the cast's balance, but it certainly would change it. (And hey, we don't even have to deal with unavoidable exploding capsules spawning during your attacks, which, as I recall, were the final straw for items in Melee. Just throwing that out there.)

 

[PK-ow!]

I think you're misinterpreting my desire to gather concrete information. My only purpose was to see if any of that research actually had been taken on.

That's a significantly more reasonable position than the one you appeared to be taking.

If you can show me some sort of universal social script that backs this up, then I will gladly follow your "order" and apologize. Now I personally don't see a reason for an apology since The Paprika Killer probably didn't see things the way you did, as he simply asked for a list.

I'd be obliged to know what a universal social script is.

Also, if you're really curious, ask Ganon boards what Ganon can do with items. They'd love to bring those links up again.

 

[Falconv1.0]

MK is bogus in many areas but oh well nothing that can be done I suppose. Not much different than Sheik ****** low tiers in Melee.

...No there is actually kind of a difference, like the fact that she doesn't have borderline the best everything, and there being viable reasons to play other characters. Also, thanks to the stigma around her, barely anyone plays her just because she's 'easy'. Falco can **** hella low tiers too yet everyone acts like it's so hard, it's kinda silly.

Not making this a Brawl vs Melee post, swear to God if someone turns it into one, I will **** out of my eyes.

 

[IYM!]

...No there is actually kind of a difference, like the fact that she doesn't have borderline the best everything, and there being viable reasons to play other characters. Also, thanks to the stigma around her, barely anyone plays her just because she's 'easy'. Falco can **** hella low tiers too yet everyone acts like it's so hard, it's kinda silly.

Not making this a Brawl vs Melee post, swear to God if someone turns it into one, I will **** out of my eyes.

this is true, MK is good in basicaly allthe aspect of the game, good DI, perfect recovery, fast, big hitboxes, etc.

i said this before, Sheik is a easy character to pick, but if you want to be pro, you must train hard with her.

 

[El Nino]

Not making this a Brawl vs Melee post, swear to God if someone turns it into one, I will **** out of my eyes.

You won't be the only one.

Games are limited by their design. Melee was designed as a party game, but it had enough room for player creativity to make it competitive. By the time they were developing Brawl, they had all the information from the Melee competitive scene to go by, and they used it to go against the competitive nature of the game. In a way, it was like they wanted to un-do what the tournament scene had done with it. You can still play Brawl competitively, but the difference is that you have to work in a framework in which the developers may have deliberately tried to make it anti-Melee and anti-competitive.

 

[Ruuku]

That's a significantly more reasonable position than the one you appeared to be taking.

Hence, why I said that you're misinterpreting.

I'd be obliged to know what a universal social script is.

There's no such thing as a universal social script. People are likely to have different expectations depending their group's dynamic processes. So for example, what I told him seems to bother you while it did not seem to bother him.

Also, if you're really curious, ask Ganon boards what Ganon can do with items. They'd love to bring those links up again.

I stated multiple times that I was using Ganon as an example. I'm not specifically interested in what Ganon has to offer over any other character.