A Question to Charizard Mains

[DJDave189]

To those who main Charizard or use him as secondary, how many times do you guys use Flare Blitz? Most Charizard players I fought against always spam flare blitz, only a very few didn't spam flare blitz. Just wondering.

 

[-LzR-]

Flare Blitz is super situational. In 90% of situation it is a worthless garbage move, but when the moment comes it can be amazing. The threat of the move is usually much more effective than what it really is. I think it's an awful move to be honest, if customs are allowed just go with Dragon Rush.

 

[RadianB]

Flare Blitz is super situational. In 90% of situation it is a worthless garbage move, but when the moment comes it can be amazing. The threat of the move is usually much more effective than what it really is. I think it's an awful move to be honest, if customs are allowed just go with Dragon Rush.

Just because you can't spam it doesn't make it a garbage move. It's good for recovering, punishing tech rolls, punishing off floor get ups, predicting rolls and projectile spam.
To answer Op's question I'll use it about 5-10 times a match.

 

[-LzR-]

Just because you can't spam it doesn't make it a garbage move. It's good for recovering, punishing tech rolls, punishing off floor get ups, predicting rolls and projectile spam.
To answer Op's question I'll use it about 5-10 times a match.

Dragon Rush does almost all of those except with a much better risk/reward ratio.
With Flare Blitz even if you do hit them you still get a lot of damage for it. If you fail, which is likely, you are pretty much done for. It is a terrible move that is very rarely useful. It's way too weak compared to its risks.
Against good players using it once a match for other than recovery is pushing it and Dragon Rush wins the recovery game too because you don't get damage for no reason.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Dragon Rush does almost all of those except with a much better risk/reward ratio.
With Flare Blitz even if you do hit them you still get a lot of damage for it. If you fail, which is likely, you are pretty much done for. It is a terrible move that is very rarely useful. It's way too weak compared to its risks.
Against good players using it once a match for other than recovery is pushing it and Dragon Rush wins the recovery game too because you don't get damage for no reason.

Uhh, I disagree... I feel as if you're being negative. It's definitely not a move that you can just toss out and expect it to do anything with but its actually great in advantage. My main use with it probably is punishing bad recoveries or if my opponent uses his double jump on stage.

 

[Davregis]

It's a usable move no doubt, just not very often. I find that using it while aerial often allows for many guaranteed punishes.
Probably the least useful of Charizard's varied, decent specials.

 

[ggamer77]

I usually only use it to recover, or if I know my opponent wont expect it. Other than that I don't use it often.

 

[Marrow]

I use it mostly to recover, with the occasional punish and the even more occasional mid-percent u-throw FB. As for numbers, it depends. Sometimes not at all, sometimes 10 times or so.

 

[Shadow7474]

I mainly use it for recovery, but if you catch an opponent charging a smash attack from across the stage most of the time FB can punish without a problem. Also to projectile punish, but you almost have to use FB before they use their projectile to actually punish them. So I pry use it about 3-7 times mainly for recovery.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Really depends...

I punish roll-happy opponents with FB a lot. (or people who try to gimp/spike me when i'm recovering), or opponents who keep camping. (though FB isn't always the best option in this case)
When i'm going up against a good player, i use it much more sparsely.

Other than that, i sometimes use FB when i predict a whiff, roll, etc
(-not saying i'm good at that...)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not a Zard main, just an enthusiast, but Flare Blitz is a real cool move. The surprise kills you can make with this move are just golden, and it's a move that's fearful and everyone respects. Much like DK's Giant Punch actually. You don't see DK mains going out and try to hit Giant Punch all the time, but when they can, or whenever it succeeds, it's glorious. Flare Blitz same way.

 

[-LzR-]

The more I play the less I use Flare Blitz. I'm really starting to dislike the move. I've moved on to Dragon Rush. It's just superior in almost every way.
If Flare Blitz actually killed people at 90% without rage it would be good. Now it's just a heavy armor move where you end up taking more damage than your opponent and not killing at 110% while taking a huge risk getting jablocked to death with an incredibly slow move that has an obvious sound effect on start up.

Sure it's fun to abuse scrubs with it on For Glory, but when I play against competent opponents I might as well try land a Falcon Punch. The move is a really good concept, but the execution ended up being weak. It's a gimmicky move.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, it really does need to be stronger. It's about as fast and powerful as fsmash, but that move has invincibility... in rage it's great to land but helloooooooo you are in rage, a blocked FB means you are probably dead. If you can set it up so they are in the air and horizontally level with you, it's pretty good though. But Dragon Rush is good in that same instance, and faster to boot.

 

[-LzR-]

Charizard doesn't even need Flare Blitz. He has other moves that are as strong or even stronger (I'm pretty sure Uair and Bair are both scarier than Blitz). The moves purpose is to be able to force yourself through a predictable and laggy move while moving forward and armoring it. Armoring it also means you get even more damage than the 9% so most of the time you get more damage than your opponent by landing a move that requires a hard read unless you want to die. Such a good move.
If Dragon Rush wasn't a thing the move would have it's place as a very situational move, but if we have something as wonderful as Dragon Rush, what is the point? The move that can be used more than twice a set is always superior in every way.
Most of the time I land Blitz it doesn't even feel rewarding. People have survived through that thing even at 130%. I could kill with a Down Throw at that %.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Does anyone know off-hand how much damage Flare Blitz does to each party on hit? I always feel like Flare Blitz is worse to hit with than normal moves if Flare Blitz won't kill since it doesn't feel like the total change to the damage (damage opponent took minus damage Charizard took) is all that good for how slow and unsafe the move is, and that's the main reason I see Flare Blitz as a pretty bad move. If Flare Blitz won't kill and I could hit with it, why would I even want to instead of run up grab or something like that? Blast Burn is that way too, but at least Blast Burn kills very early and has percent ranges where it pays off massively because of that while Flare Blitz's kill percents seem roughly in line with Charizard's other power moves.

And yeah, Dragon Rush is just the best because it's the fastest, the safest, and it doesn't self-damage so you can just look at all of the damage it does as "real" damage. Dragon Rush is also the best for recovery; it's a solid move.

 

[-LzR-]

Does anyone know off-hand how much damage Flare Blitz does to each party on hit? I always feel like Flare Blitz is worse to hit with than normal moves if Flare Blitz won't kill since it doesn't feel like the total change to the damage (damage opponent took minus damage Charizard took) is all that good for how slow and unsafe the move is, and that's the main reason I see Flare Blitz as a pretty bad move. If Flare Blitz won't kill and I could hit with it, why would I even want to instead of run up grab or something like that? Blast Burn is that way too, but at least Blast Burn kills very early and has percent ranges where it pays off massively because of that while Flare Blitz's kill percents seem roughly in line with Charizard's other power moves.

And yeah, Dragon Rush is just the best because it's the fastest, the safest, and it doesn't self-damage so you can just look at all of the damage it does as "real" damage. Dragon Rush is also the best for recovery; it's a solid move.

Wow you just nailed it right there. This is exactly how I think, I just suck a writing well unlike you to explain it.

 

[Charey]

It's 9% to Charizard on hit and 19% to the opponent. So it gives the same percent lead as forward tilt.

It's sort of sad when you think of it that way.

 

[-LzR-]

It's 9% to Charizard on hit and 19% to the opponent. So it gives the same percent lead as forward tilt.

It's sort of sad when you think of it that way.

This is not considering the damage you take from armoring a move with it, which is the reason you want to use the move in the first place. Considering the move can tank hits up to 14% means you can take 23% while your opponent takes 19%. What an amazing move!

 

[Knee Smasher]

I think the fact that Flare Blitz is a kill move combined with how easy it can be to hit with it if is thrown out suddenly and unexpectedly already solidifies its status as a great move. Obviously it cannot be spammed - if you want to spam with Charizard, there are at least three other moves in this character's arsenal that be spammed and gotten away with - Flamethrower, jab and Nair.

With that said though, I do think Dragon Rush is the superior move in most matchups. Sacrificing a kill move for a move that has extreme utility in many different situations is definitely worth it for a character who already has a kill throw and is amazing at killing in so many ways besides Flare Blitz anyway.

 

[-LzR-]

Agreed, Charizard doesn't need Blitz for killing and it's very weak compared to it's drawbacks. A Falcon sideB is much stronger than Blitz.
I would go as far as say it's our worst move after Up throw.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I am certain Flare Blitz is better than Bair, Uair, Dair and Fsmash... and arguably some others.

 

[-LzR-]

I am certain Flare Blitz is better than Bair, Uair, Dair and Fsmash... and arguably some others.

Those are all very good moves. Flare Blitz doesn't even compare to any of them. Bair is one of the most long ranged and deadlies aerials in the game, same can be said for Uair, it's stupid strong. Dair is one of the best spikes in the game and Fsmash is stronger than Blitz and has invincibility instead of armor.

 

[RadianB]

Dragon Rush is actually Charizard's best move. It's so good that it had to get nerfed in the last update.
I still think Flare Blitz is a good move but the only time I'd pick it over Dragon Rush is against Mega Man and maybe Luigi.

 

[-LzR-]

Dragon Rush is actually Charizard's best move. It's so good that it had to get nerfed in the last update.
I still think Flare Blitz is a good move but the only time I'd pick it over Dragon Rush is against Mega Man and maybe Luigi.

I would say Jab and Usmash are our best moves, but Charizards moveset is pretty well balanced, only Uthrow is useless.

 

[Ganonballer]

I actually haven't used Dragon Rush yet. I looks really good but I really think FB is one of Zards best moves. Its not the most applicable by any means but its great for punishing anything with some lag on it, namely projectile start ups and cool downs. I also use it a lot to catch landings if I can't make it over there with a grab or fire or something. Its not as bad as you guys seem to think lol. Sure, its super punishable if you don't use it right but its a great move.

I prob use it a little more than I should but i use it like 15+ times a game prob.

 

[RadianB]

I would say Jab and Usmash are our best moves, but Charizards moveset is pretty well balanced, only Uthrow is useless.

Jab is good but the little hit stun on the first hit means opponents can sometimes block the rest of the combo. I'm not sure how the move works, if you go into training mode and try the Jab sometimes it says it's a 3 hit combo but sometimes it's a 2 hit combo?

 

[Mysteltainn]

I don't main him, but he is one of the characters I use frequently and enjoy. I personally feel that Flare Blitz is something that you absolutely cannot be careless with, and is better used as a stealth tool rather than something to spam. It is probably best used once or twice offensively throughout a match to throw someone off and kill them once rather than spammed 10+ times, which will lead to you taking a lot of recoil damage and getting punished hard which leads into taking more damage or potentially dying. The only other time I find myself using it is defensively to get back to the stage in scenarios that Fly or my jumps wouldn't quite cut it.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Those are all very good moves. Flare Blitz doesn't even compare to any of them. Bair is one of the most long ranged and deadlies aerials in the game, same can be said for Uair, it's stupid strong. Dair is one of the best spikes in the game and Fsmash is stronger than Blitz and has invincibility instead of armor.

The problem is, all of those moves, despite their power, are extremely difficult to land and very punishable. Despite being weaker, I think Nair and Fair are better moves to use than those aerial attacks most of the time just because they are safer.

I would say Jab and Usmash are our best moves, but Charizards moveset is pretty well balanced, only Uthrow is useless.

Jab and Usmash are both excellent moves, the latter especially on Battlefield. However the more I play Charizard, the more I think Flamethrower is his single best move, due to its awesome utility in zoning, covering landing, and edgeguarding, and it is also safe on both shield and spot-dodge. Seriously, I estimate that around 40% of the damage I deal in a typical 1 VS. 1 with Charizard comes from Flamethrower. Charizard would never be as good as he is without this move, and in fact, due to the fact that Charizard's throws have pretty much no other forms of follow-ups, I'd argue that Charizard's ability to Fthrow/Bthrow someone off-stage and then edgeguard them with Flamethrower contributes immensely to solidifying his grab/throw game.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Charizard's horizontal recovery is spectacular with Flare Blitz. Other than recovery, I use it as a punish tool. After an opponent misses a tech or uses a move with end lag, Flare Blitz is a great option. You may also read opponents with it (great for reading rolls!) , but like others have said it's rather punishable. I use it probably around ~7 times per match.

 

[-LzR-]

Charizard's horizontal recovery is spectacular with Flare Blitz. Other than recovery, I use it as a punish tool. After an opponent misses a tech or uses a move with end lag, Flare Blitz is a great option. You may also read opponents with it (great for reading rolls!) , but like others have said it's rather punishable. I use it probably around ~7 times per match.

Dragon Rush is much better as a recovery move. No self damage and it's less laggy.
Using Flare Blitz 7 times per match is about 7 times too much. You should be more careful with the move because when you face opponents who are very familiar with the move you are going to have a bad time.

 

[Bloodcross]

If you hit with Flare Blitz you really shouldn't fret over taking damage yourself. It does put us closer to higher rage percents, however miniscule the damage on yourself would be. The pros of Flare Blitz have already been said, but I also use the move as a reactionary move against opponents who whiff grabs (as well as smash attacks which was already mentioned). Getting jab locked is the worst part, forget about the damage on yourself lol.

But yeah Dragon Rush is even better. You can actually pass through opponents who are trying to edgeguard you instead of hitting the opponent and maintaining some lag offstage. It sucks if your jumps are gone too as UpB won't carry you over far enough horizontally to the ledge at times. It's sort of similar to how a lot of Ike players in Brawl (and probably Sm4sh too) die offstage.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Dragon Rush is much better as a recovery move. No self damage and it's less laggy.
Using Flare Blitz 7 times per match is about 7 times too much. You should be more careful with the move because when you face opponents who are very familiar with the move you are going to have a bad time.

Dragon Rush is much better as a recovery move. No self damage and it's less laggy.
Using Flare Blitz 7 times per match is about 7 times too much. You should be more careful with the move because when you face opponents who are very familiar with the move you are going to have a bad time.

Got it. I'll give Dragon Rush a try when I'm not feeling too lazy to unlock customs... haha. Are there any other customs that are better than 'Zard's default? They all look a bit iffy to me, but I'm curious on other's opinions. Thank you!

 

[Knee Smasher]

As a testament to how good Dragon Rush is, I, as a person who is extremely experienced with the Rosalina matchup, can tell you that in a match without customs, the Charizard VS. Rosalina matchup is about 40:60 in Rosalina's favor, but as soon as customs are allowed and Charizard is allowed to use Dragon Rush, the matchup not only suddenly tips to about 60:40 in Charizard's favor (even when taking into account Rosalina's own customs, including her amazing Shooting Star Bit), but I am currently also not aware of any other character who can possibly have that good of a matchup against Rosalina (I also main Captain Falcon, and secondary Bowser, Ganondorf and Yoshi, and prior to using Dragon Rush Charizard, I have never, at any time facing a Rosalina, felt that a character I used had a positive matchup against her). I confirmed this two days ago in numerous customs matches I had with one of the best Rosalina players I know.

 

[Bloodcross]

Could you elaborate why Dragon Rush becomes so good in the matchup?

 

[Knee Smasher]

Mainly the fact that Dragon Rush kills Luma almost every single time it hits him, in addition to the fact that Dragon Rush serves as a great method of approaching Rosalina without being easily punished (she cannot easily just roll away from the move and then punish Charizard with a dash attack or a dash grab, like she can do against Charizard's other approaches such as dash grab or short-hop Nair).

 

[-LzR-]

Got it. I'll give Dragon Rush a try when I'm not feeling too lazy to unlock customs... haha. Are there any other customs that are better than 'Zard's default? They all look a bit iffy to me, but I'm curious on other's opinions. Thank you!

Give Dragon Rush a try and then decide for yourself. I believe you will end up choosing Dragon Rush.
The only other custom I would even consider is Rock Hurl for the 1 Frame Super Armor, but other than it just kills Rock Smash as a move. Unless you really need that 1 frame SA it's just a worse Rock Smash.

 

[RadianB]

I wish Fireball Cannon only shot one fireball like Bowsers or at the very least 2 because atm it's not very useful. The fireballs fly in random directions even if you try to control it and it has too much lag time.

 

[rrrRandy]

Flare Blitz isn't that bad. Sure, it's super punishable on shield, but that's why you never use it where it could be shielded. There are essentially three kinds of situations where you actually want to Flare Blitz (and not necessarily Dragon Rush):

1. To punish stuff from a distance really hard. Ideally you'd only do this when it's likely to kill, but in the event that it doesn't, 19% is still 19%; for a character with pretty much no guaranteed combos and a moveset almost entirely comprised of kill moves, that's not too bad. Self-damage hurts, but 9% to seal a stock seems like a fairly reasonable trade to me, especially when you can fairly often survive past 140% yourself. (Dragon Rush generally won't be able to kill from similar distances at similar %, since most of Dragon Rush's kill potential comes from dragging the opponent way off-stage, and it also won't go through projectiles.)
2. To recover in a way that is difficult to challenge, or as an extra option for getting back down from above the stage. When your opponent has adapted to deal with your usual landing options, sometimes the better option is to just GET OUT OF THERE RIGHT NOW to the opposite side of the stage to escape an extended juggle. 9% is a relatively small price to pay to get to the ground when your other options are getting knocked back off-stage or escaping to the ledge, because the ledge is honestly a pretty bad place for Charizard. (When recovering with Flare Blitz, either go a decent way over the opponent's head or straight to the ledge to avoid being punished. You should generally only try this when the opponent is at kill % so there's less risk of you coming out worse in the event of a trade. If I remember correctly, Dragon Rush doesn't move as fast/far horizontally and won't trade as well, making a bit less powerful as an escape tool, but not being bodyblocked if you hit is nice for recovery.)
3. To completely cover tech landings. Timed properly, Flare Blitz will cover missed techs, neutral techs and tech rolls away all in one move, which will leave most characters with only two options: jumping, which puts themselves in a different difficult position, or tech rolling in trying to read a Flare Blitz, which is very unlikely to work anyway. You can generally input the Flare Blitz after the opponent commits to landing. Shorthop N-air at ~90% will often send them horizontally, barely off the stage, at which point you can simply dash in and cover practically every option available. (If you hit the opponent off-stage with the N-air instead, Dragon Rush is better for an off-stage followup, though off-stage the opponent is far more likely to dodge it anyway.)

Dragon Rush is good, yes. It's not a straight upgrade to Flare Blitz though, and I definitely wouldn't call it Charizard's best move. It doesn't have many completely distinct uses like Flare Blitz; a lot of its applications have results similar to using jabs, dash attack or Fly. It's also still fairly punishable on shield (probably with a dash grab in most cases), and doesn't threaten to kill off a trade quite as often when used to recover. I'd say the choice is rather match-up dependent, and also somewhat playstyle dependent; as mentioned above, Rosalina is one where Flare Blitz is totally useless, and probably also Duck Hunt, but Flare Blitz is better against Zero Suit and Luigi, for example. That all said, I probably only use Flare Blitz at most three times a game.

While I'm here, the only thing I can think of that Blast Burn could be good for (other than basically being Falcon Punch) is covering ledges. Shorthopping off the side of the stage and then using Blast Burn back onto the stage would just put a big blob of death over the ledge for a little while. It's like some kind of really laggy area denial tool. For other customs, Rock Hurl is pretty cool with frame 1 super armour and can pop people up into the air in at an awkward height that can set up aerials quite nicely, but everything else is pretty useless.

Oh, and I might be going off on a bit of a tangent here, but F-smash is the dumbest freaking move, like goddamn, the invincibility, the hitbox size and the knockback are ridiculous. Charizard's extremely fast pivot gives him the option of dash-in double pivot F-smash (self-explanatory, just pivot twice into F-smash), which is really useful for baiting out and punishing things like dash grabs or ledge attacks which will whiff because of your very short dash back combined with Charizard pulling himself back slightly in the F-smash animation. You can also use it to just beat out incoming attacks completely. The massive hitbox (which extends well inside Charizard's body as well) is even difficult to roll through for a lot of characters, and at maximum range a lot of characters can't even get a particularly meaty punish if you hit their shield. And it just kills so early; punish a ledge option (or in some cases just hit them while they're still on the ledge and not invincible) at ~75% and they're dead. Flare Blitz isn't bad, it's just that F-smash is so much better in most applicable situations.

Maybe I should just write an entire Charizard guide or something later, might be fun.

 

[Charey]

Flare blitzing over someone to recover stops working once people get used to fighting Charizard, the faster characters can catch you with a dash before you are out of landing lag. It's great for kill reads and powering through "Safe" spacing options but it's a move that really only has use as a read/punish.

There are still match-ups where I would prefer Flare Blitz over Dragon Rush like Link where having the option to just ignore his projectiles reduces his ability to zone you out.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think Flare Blitz's armor makes it a safer recovery move, honestly. I've flown right through attacks that would certainly kill me with it; even a meteor smash.
Flare Blitz also really saved me in one Zero Suit Samus match I had. I can't always rely on Flamethrower to get past her Neutral B, or my opponent will start figuring my patterns out.

I agree that in most situations, Dragon Rush is better, but I can definitely feel the loss of Flare Blitz. You really have to be in a favorable position right by the edge to get a KO with Dragon Rush, but Flare Blitz can destroy almost anywhere. If you're fighting an opponent who's easy to approach or has a lot of landing lag, perhaps Flare Blitz will be a decent option.