A question about DI's

[Flamingo]

Is F Air Shiek's shortest lasting aerial? If so this would be an additional reason to DI with F Air.

Yes. Unless you land cancel a Nair or Bair. But that doesn't applyto what you are talking about, cause Sheik would be in the air... So yes, it is the shortest lasting aerial.

(Neutral Air
HIT: 2
END: 44 {31}
LAND: 15

Forward Air
HIT: 5
END: 28 {14}
LAND: 15

Back Air
HIT: 3
END: 41 {32}
LAND: 12

Up Air
HIT: 4
END: 42 {29}
LAND: 30

Down Air
HIT: 14
END: 54
LAND: 38)

Cite - Ankoku's Frame Data thread.

I have also been wondering what the best Smash DI (I think that's what it's called) for Sheik would be. I have contemplated Dair, cause it seems like it cancels momentum quickly (Upward momentum) But I can't get myself in the habit of doing it... because we aren't supposed to ever use Dair... its a pretty crap move. Anyways.. Unless I am horribly wrong about the Dair cancelling vertical knockback, which I very well could be, it looks like fair is the best bet otherwise though.

Can anyone confirm which DI is better? Is it situational? If there's another thread on this, sorry in advance... but a little discussion couldn't hurt.

 

[<π]

only B moves cancel knockback momentum really... I'll use down air to speed up decent but if you were going to die from an attack an A move will never save you.

 

[silver0p]

yeah like i find that shooting out chain is pretty good for stoping momentum or even Needle charge idk havent tryed it.

i usealy go fro the down air for momentum to stop because it does slow it down quite a bit in some cases. but you always got to be carful if you are off a cliff you dont hit it more then 2 times or else you will regain your drop thing and d air to your doom

 

[<π]

I mean B moves that change momentum on their own all though I'd like to try a B reverse and see if it reverses your knockback momentum after reading that...

I guess chain stops momentum? but that crap is scary you are better off using a jump.

most of sheiks moves enhance momentum or don't change it at all.

 

[demodemo]

uh what

doing a moves do help you regain control faster, since it allows you to alter momentum by jumping

you can't do any b moves during "hitstun", only a moves and airdodge

airdodge happens to do nothing at all

a moves that end the fastest allow you to regain control faster. in this case you use fair. it doesn't matter what angle you are hit in, DI appropriately while spamming fair and then jump.

 

[<π]

You can do anything hit stun or am I missing something.

 

[KRDsonic]

Is her Dair actually useful for DI? I usually prevent myself from using her Dair when i'm smash DIing because it always seems to hurt me more than helping me...

 

[ColinJF]

There seems to be a lot of confusion here.

1) The original poster is not talking about SDI, even though he says he is.
2) Momentum cancelling strategies takes place after DI so none of this has anything to do with DI.
3) Using Sheik's down air while you are under the influence of knockback will not reduce your speed.
4) Using any aerial in knockback does two things: it allows you to fast fall, reducing the vertical component of your speed, and it takes you out of hitstun.
5) Once you are out of hitstun, you can use air control ("drift") to reduce the horizontal component of your speed by holding toward the stage. This not related to DI. You can also use your double jump to help reduce your speed.

The reason using your fastest aerial is always best is that the momentum changing properties of aerials do not occur while you are under the influence of knockback, and as soon as the aerial ends, you can start to make use of air control.

 

[sniperworm]

I thought that for vertical moves you're supposed to use the aerial that comes out the fastest and input down to "fastfall" and help reduce the vertical knockback.

This would make Sheik's Nair the best move for preventing a vertical KO. However, it could be argued that since Fair is only 3 frames slower on startup and ends significantly quicker, it's probably the best aerial to use in general.

 

[Tristan_win]

I thought that for vertical moves you're supposed to use the aerial that comes out the fastest and input down to "fastfall" and help reduce the vertical knockback.

This would make Sheik's Nair the best move for preventing a vertical KO. However, it could be argued that since Fair is only 3 frames slower on startup and ends significantly quicker, it's probably the best aerial to use in general.

Thank you ColinJF for helping to clear that up, but I have the same exact question as sniperworm here.


Up till now I thought the faster the aerial came out the better it would be for avoiding vertical KO's since you would regain control upon the frame the attack came out not immediately after the cool down of an aerial.

 

[<π]

I meant can't... can't do anything in hitstun...

how many knockback related states are there?

I know hitstun where you can do anything spare DI
Theres a tumbling state similar to melee's
Are there more than this?

 

[ColinJF]

I thought that for vertical moves you're supposed to use the aerial that comes out the fastest and input down to "fastfall" and help reduce the vertical knockback.

This would make Sheik's Nair the best move for preventing a vertical KO. However, it could be argued that since Fair is only 3 frames slower on startup and ends significantly quicker, it's probably the best aerial to use in general.

I'm under the impression that fast falling any aerial will affect the vertical component of your speed in the same way. So if you're only concerned about being killed off the top it doesn't really matter which aerial you use.

You don't "regain control" (i.e. become able to use air control) until the aerial ends, but you can start fast falling as soon as you're able to use an aerial.

 

[demodemo]

thing is, nair lasts too long, and fastfalling a fair then jumping is more effective

<3 next time you get hit my a strong move that nearly kills you, spam jump, you won't be able to jump for quite some time, but you can almost immediately attack.

 

[Flamingo]

thing is, nair lasts too long, and fastfalling a fair then jumping is more effective

<3 next time you get hit my a strong move that nearly kills you, spam jump, you won't be able to jump for quite some time, but you can almost immediately attack.

I have to disagree with this, unless you are trying to recover from vertical knockback. (Because no matter how hard you try, you cannot jump off the top of the screen while you are in control of your character.) I believe I have heard that the stage blast zones are octogonal in shape, thus if you were to jump from being hit hard horizontally, you might hit the 2nd wall,or blast zone, of the octogon and die. (If side one is at the top and you count clockwise.)

I used to use the jumping thing like you said, but it just ended up killing me more times than not. Now I tend to use forward air in any situation where I need a DI.


Another thought. Did everyone read the thread posted by Tristan Win saying that forward air actually moves you 1/3 of a step forward each time you use it? I am wondering if you could use this Fair to reduce horizontal knockback even more because of this property. I am not sure of this though, please give me your thoughts if you guys think this would work.

 

[Tristan_win]

I have to disagree with this, unless you are trying to recover from vertical knockback. (Because no matter how hard you try, you cannot jump off the top of the screen while you are in control of your character.) I believe I have heard that the stage blast zones are octogonal in shape, thus if you were to jump from being hit hard horizontally, you might hit the 2nd wall,or blast zone, of the octogon and die. (If side one is at the top and you count clockwise.)

I used to use the jumping thing like you said, but it just ended up killing me more times than not. Now I tend to use forward air in any situation where I need a DI.


Another thought. Did everyone read the thread posted by Tristan Win saying that forward air actually moves you 1/3 of a step forward each time you use it? I am wondering if you could use this Fair to reduce horizontal knockback even more because of this property. I am not sure of this though, please give me your thoughts if you guys think this would work.

You can't.

4) Aerials with momentum altering traits do not offer you any special benefit whatsoever as opposed to other aerials. During the time you are lingering in hit stun, these aerials lose any special characteristic they have normally, such as Lucarios stalling Dair, or Toon Links fast fall Dair. Because of this, they may work the same or worse compared to other aerials which might in fact be faster. Point is, if you have a faster aerial to perform, do not use them.
~Ulevo

Quote is from this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522&highlight=aerial+recovery

 

[Rawr_]

Nair and fair seem to be pretty similar, actually. nair is slightly better for vertical knockback because it lets you fastfall sooner, fair is better for horizontal because you can jump sooner

 

[KillerSOS]

Fastest is best. and you wont suicide

 

[Flamingo]

You can't.

4) Aerials with momentum altering traits do not offer you any special benefit whatsoever as opposed to other aerials. During the time you are lingering in hit stun, these aerials lose any special characteristic they have normally, such as Lucarios stalling Dair, or Toon Links fast fall Dair. Because of this, they may work the same or worse compared to other aerials which might in fact be faster. Point is, if you have a faster aerial to perform, do not use them.
~Ulevo

Quote is from this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192522&highlight=aerial+recovery

Indeed, I completely believe this now... I spam Fair now when I get hit with high knockback... OH MY GOSH IT ROCKS! I live so much longer... And Tristan, thanks for the find on the momentum gained by doing more Fairs. Usually if you are too far away from the ledge, you get edgehogged but with this extra step, I find myself landing on the stage more times than I would by not doing this. By the way, it is really weird that you only get the forward momentum for three of those though. I do it way more than that haha, so it's all good.