A Metagame designed to not have platforms.

[straydoggywog]

This may be heresy to say this, but lets theory craft a way in which Smash 4 could be designed in such a way that for competitions sake, on the ground, no platform fighting.

This is not new in fighting games, in fact, it's the standard. Many great fighting games are designed in a 2D environment, no platforms. The difference is that those games run on a health meter. Smash is unique in that the the ring out is the goal, not the diminishing of health. But you already know this.

There is something to be said about how not having platforms is a step backward for smash, concepts of stage control, platform canceling are in this way completely lost. and for this discussion, lets refrain from lamenting those loses because I still think it can be fun and have so much depth. To have each and every character designed to function on a no platform stage can offer itself to a pretty good meta and would put itself more inline more with traditional fighting games, such as Street Fighter and Marvel X Capcom. And that's not a bad thing at all.

There are Two character types that come to mind immediately that would flourish in this and is represented by two new characters in our roster. The Little Mac Style(A Cami style you could say if you want a Street Fighter correlation), and the Mega Man Style, a projectile zoning game.

Little Mac is all about closing in, and pressure. Getting in your face for big combos, big damage, and quick kills. Ways to deal with this are shield grabbing, and out spacing with either disjointed hit boxes(like Marth's sword) Or Projectiles(Like links combs and such), so as to not let him come close and be able to set up those combos. Megaman is rife with projectiles. He's the only character I know of who has projectile as neutrals. So it's very obvious that his goal would be to Lame it out as they say. Get the damage lead, space correctly, create openings with projectiles, and don't let them get close to you. BUT my concern is that in a flat stage with no platforms Little Macs strategy will become the more rewarding strategy while Mega Mans will be less so, and that's because of the lack of platforms.

So, this is where I think we can theory craft some. How can we make the two play styles (and all those in between) Equally viable, on flat stages with Smash Bros mechanics.

A couple ideas:

Different size FD's: We've already seen that most of the FD stages have different sizes, so counter picking can still be a thing and I think it's obvious that, for example, Link is much versatile on a Flat Stage that's bigger, than a Flat Stage that's smaller. So while not as diverse options or advantages, counter picking could still be a thing.

More Counters: I can already see this but quite a few characters have counters already. Marth, Little Mac, Greninja, Villager. Having more counters can give certain characters more options to deal with approaches than just shielding and rolling and sidestepping.

Thoughts from anyone? Like I said before, lets try to avoid the "But with stages so many more things are possible." Yes I agree, but at the same time, I think having a very focused center of battle can lend itself it's own type of depth and play. And it's the formula that other fighting games have employed, and I'd like to see that explored by this community.

Discuss.

 

[Shaya]

We don't know what customisation options the new game will have. There's hints at moveset changes being available. We also know there are FD versions of many stages, however we don't know if stage sizes are to be varied in these situations either and we don't know if this is limited to online play only or not (it was only shown as an online feature).
Extensive customisation/changes to a game will be very unlikely to ever become a standard (yes I know, project m, yada yada). But what we do know is, that the way the game engine is, and the other mechanics of the game that completely contrast from traditional fighters won't work well together. Final Destination has, after 13 years of it, become seen as an extremely centralising stage (preferring some characters heavily over others as freedom of movement rationale exists in all character's designs). Most competitive players dislike it. There's a reason you almost never see it at high level play in either melee or brawl in any situation other than counter picks.

On a theory crafting level, we could talk all day about how we would need to change basically everything to make as many characters proficient on a flat stage as possible. If practicality/history is any indication, projectiles users are dominant on platformless stages because projectiles are designed to zone at specific (usually multiple) heights, and the most common strategies for dealing with them involve vertical play. Little Mac would not be good on a flat stage against projectiles because he is absurdly weak in the air (apparently) and his dash/counter move would have to be extremely strong to nullify his lack of vertical prowess to compete against projectilers.

A flat level meta will develop for sure. Final Destination is here to stay. We'll continue to dislike it though.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I doubt that mode was even Sakurais priority, and he probably shoehorned the characters into that mode without much research.

 

[NickRiddle]

Pretty sure the "All FD" thing is JUST for "For Glory" matches.
Unsure why people think otherwise...

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think Smash 4 will be designed for FD at least a bit because also almost every stage has a FD form. Also, if you consider how many characters got reflect specials or similar Sakurai tries to buff other ways to deal with projectiles, because escaping to a platform will only be a rare opportunity

 

[Smash G]

FD isn't balanced for all characters. It'll be interesting. I actually don't mind the news because the other "tournament maps" I don't like as much anyways. Especially Battlefield and those small ones that feel kind of cramped. I like the Animal Crossing one a lot though.

I'm wondering if Little Mac will be especially good here. Without a platform game and him apparently sucking in the air but being good on the ground he might excel. But that's jsut a wonder...

 

[[TSON]]

Pretty sure the "All FD" thing is JUST for "For Glory" matches.
Unsure why people think otherwise...

Wouldn't that be really weird to make a different version of each stage that's only playable in one mode, though? They have to be available in other multiplayer modes, and the way it was phrased ("No Final Destination" for the For Fun mode) makes it sound like they are normally selectable stages.

 

[TreK]

Platforms would be cool if we have an equivalent to wavelanding and platform cancel. Else they're just going to be shields for juggles tbh.
Things like stage length matter much, much more in terms of making the game more/less campy.

Pretty sure the "All FD" thing is JUST for "For Glory" matches.
Unsure why people think otherwise...

Because all the stages we've been shown this far have some serious stage hazards. Even Smashville seems to have transitions now, and Megaman's stage which looked like a neutral now has a boss battle.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Marth gonna devour Fox.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

Up and close charcters like Marth and Little Mac are going to have the advantage

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Marth isn't as great on FD actually. Except against fastfallers. Chaingrabbers will definitely profit, Little Mac too, projectile characters only if their projectile controls the space around them good enough, like PM Link.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has a nice niche in FD in his ability to continually juggle reliably because of the little options an opponent has to mix up their landing/falling options. Being juggled by Marth on FD isn't fun in either games.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thats the point about Marth... but his juggles are more effective when he can use platforms at least to a certain degree. Also FD is a big stage, and Marth prefers small stages like Yoshis Story

 

[Shaya]

Marth has spacing tools to capitalise/pressure you being on a platform. But that's because of their situated heights more than anything. Take Dreamland 64 in melee, it's a very awkward stage for Marth because his general quick tools aren't reaching there and it disrupts his combo game more so than say Yoshi's Island or Battlefield.

Either way, I still remain adamant that you do not want to be put into the air by Marth when the only way for you to reach the ground (where you have all these lovely extra options: spot dodging, shielding, and all the various platform extra mechanics [run offs/drop offs]) is through Marth. One of Marth's strongest anti-landing options is usually his grab as well, which platforms also get in the way of =)

 

[Dairz]

Wouldn't that be really weird to make a different version of each stage that's only playable in one mode, though? They have to be available in other multiplayer modes, and the way it was phrased ("No Final Destination" for the For Fun mode) makes it sound like they are normally selectable stages.

Nope, Sakurai said "These stages will be playable in For Glory mode." If it was playable normally, he would've said so.

 

[straydoggywog]

Final Destination has, after 13 years of it, become seen as an extremely centralising stage (preferring some characters heavily over others as freedom of movement rationale exists in all character's designs). Most competitive players dislike it. There's a reason you almost never see it at high level play in either melee or brawl in any situation other than counter picks.

I understand this, but my question is, assuming they are trying to make serious competitive play on FD stages only, how would they balance each character for it?

For example, Marth could be kept back with projectiles, so as a counter pick Marth, when it comes time for him to counter pick, picks a smaller FD stage making it easier for him to close in. Little Mac Might be able to take advantage of armor in order to get past projectiles, or some characters with a reflector or something or other might be able to camp out the projectiles, forcing the projectile use approach in clever ways.

More ways, instead of having as many vertical combos create horizontal combos. Imagine Falcos shine spike function horizontally, imagine Wolfs PM reflector where is pops them in a 45 degree angle instead of straight up, followed but a running dair. That's an example of an adjustment for flat stage play. Characters like Marth and Link I think are already very attuned to it, so they wouldn't need much adjusting. Samus with some faster projectiles.

 

[LancerStaff]

Nope, Sakurai said "These stages will be playable in For Glory mode." If it was playable normally, he would've said so.

We see items on a FD look-alike.

 

[Chimera]

Pretty sure the FD versions of various stages will be available offline as well.

 

[Deku_Don]

This is only the For Glory mode we are talking about. Regardless of how good the online is in that setting I don't think the community will latch onto it too much.

If you look at the stages we have so far that we could used for tournament play (with a similar mindset and the requirements for stages in the previous games that we use), we have 3 Neutrals (FD, BF, Animal Crossing and if it stays as it is the Pokemon stage that's shown briefly in the Greninja video) and a few potential counters (Halberd, Pilotwings, maybe Skyloft?) for sure. The others I'm not too sure about but they looked like they were either walk off stages (Galaxy, Wii Fit,Garden of Hope, I'm guessing Boxing Ring) , have elements which would be too intrusive (Wileys Castle, Pyrosphere) or too big (Palutena's Temple).

If Little Mac destroys on FD and all it's variants, then it's not like we'll have nothing to combat it. In For Glory though he probably will be a favourite.

 

[DaDavid]

For Glory will end up being a decent to good practice grounds for players who can't find matches with registered friends at any given moment, but I doubt the rules within it will be able to serve as legit matches for tourneys.

 

[Revven]

The FD-skins are definitely available for local play and I have no doubt in my mind the community will use those versions where possible (and intelligently). I don't see, however, the community abandoning stages like Battlefield or similar to it. An FD-like version of a stage should only be used in the most extreme circumstances and only if it offers variety in other ways compared to the other FD-like stages.

I do not see the community adapting to an FD-only stage list (which includes all the various versions of FD based on the other stages).

 

[aldelaro5]

Before saying my two cents, I just want to tell that I'm not a competitive player and so I can't debate the metagame deeply but I did find tripping and speed annoying in brawl (even in solo mode) but I just want some answer because frankly, it doesn't seems like competitive player should be mad THAT much about for glory mode here's why:

So first, Sakurai stated that it was only if you want to play WITH ANYONE online which means that you may not find the experience you want online because you don't know if your opponent is active or not in the competitive scene (yes matchmaking exists but it still limited because you fight anyone)

On the other hand, he said that it doesn't apply to battle with friends where you can have the rule you want (btw should have a tournament mode there) which means that if you REALLY want to use standard competitive rules with someone you know will agree to well you can (and seeing how the gameplay looks faster than brawl, I can assume it will be better than brawl but correct me if I'm wrong here) and of course this is the same for local play (probably).

So now here's my concern: why the complain? if you want more deep competitive wise just play with your own rule with someone that wants the same rules. I can understand that it looks annoying for some to not have platform but really I saw a thread that sugests tweeting to nintendo is it THAT important? I just want to know why this might ruin the whole online game.

my two cents again quote this if I'm wrong.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

Though I greatly appreciate Sakurai's gesture towards the competitive players of smash, there is a huge problem. As everyone here has discussed, if all the stages are flat, there will be no stage lists or counter picks at all. If there are it will be pointless. I'm sure that not all of the FD versions will be used in tournament settings, but for competitive online play I believe that there should be stages with triangle platforms as well. Only flat stages is completely unbalanced. I hope they use the ability they have to update the game wisely. Stages like Smashville, Battlefield, Pyrosphere, and Dr. Wily's Castle looked like perfectly fine stages with the platforms. The problem is the stage hazards(Mainly Wily's Castle and Pyrosphere in this example). Why can't we just have an option to turn stage hazards off? The For Glory stage list I believe should be developed by the community and implemented for it to be enjoyed to the full extent. I look forward to experiencing the online for real this time. I just hope Sakurai sees the competitive community for what it is. All he would need to do is look at the stage lists for APEX rules and he would notice the clear pattern on the stages included in the lists.

 

[lami]

Just because many stages will have an FD mode, doesn't mean that stages won't be viable in their non FD mode. People get very excited to jump down Sakurai's throat but we have no idea to what extent this all FD fully entails. No one knows much about the game, so there is no reason to naysay before the game is even released.

 

[[TSON]]

Nope, Sakurai said "These stages will be playable in For Glory mode." If it was playable normally, he would've said so.

He said "These stages will be playable in For Glory Mode".
...While talking about For Glory Mode. The full quote is something like "We've added these stages." Period. "They will be playable in For Glory Mode" right?

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

I never implied to do so. I'm only speculating. From what it sounded like and from what I personally saw on the Smash Direct. Final Destination form meant the stages are completely flat with no platforms. This clearly presents balancing issues. I'm pointing it out because Sakurai is attempting to make a competitive mode for the smash community to enjoy. Competitive players use triangle platform stages and stages with platforms in general in order to counterpick based on the match up they are pitted against. I'm a Link main so this isn't a massive problem for me personally. However, I refuse to be blind to the fact pressure focused characters will suffer immensely if the selection for everything is watered down to the Final Destination forms. It won't be so fun when a Link main creates a wall of projectiles that my opponent(who's moveset is focused on pressure) can't get around or avoid them. They can only shield and spot dodge so much.

 

[straydoggywog]

Isn't the disadvantage of a projectile user is that once someone gets passed them, they have difficulty responding to that continued pressure? I think the game could be balanced toward no platform play. The problem is we're all stuck thinking of smash in terms of platform play. Yes, certain characters are better with platforms and need them, but the thing that I want to discuss is ways to make those characters that need platforms, viable in a no platform environment. Such as greater mobility options, super armor frames, attacks that can reflect projectiles easily(In a ness bat type scenario)

 

[GamerGuy09]

Pretty sure the "All FD" thing is JUST for "For Glory" matches.
Unsure why people think otherwise...

I'm pretty sure that the language used in the Japanese Nintendo used the word "Also" when discribing the ALL FD maps.

Also i wouldn't see why not they wouldn't add the option for it, it seems like a waste.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pretty sure the "All FD" thing is JUST for "For Glory" matches.
Unsure why people think otherwise...

We see color game 15 on Pyro Destination. Items are banned from Glory mode.

 

[Shaya]

Isn't the disadvantage of a projectile user is that once someone gets passed them, they have difficulty responding to that continued pressure? I think the game could be balanced toward no platform play. The problem is we're all stuck thinking of smash in terms of platform play. Yes, certain characters are better with platforms and need them, but the thing that I want to discuss is ways to make those characters that need platforms, viable in a no platform environment. Such as greater mobility options, super armor frames, attacks that can reflect projectiles easily(In a ness bat type scenario)

As I said, the main counter to projectiles which are primarily hoirzontal is through vertical choices. But for the most part, players are using the fact that the opponent will use vertical options to get through them, which as most characters have blindspots below them, and most projectile use cases are grounded or near grounded give major advantages to the projectile users. When platforms come into it, a lot of item projectiles for example (grenades, bananas in brawl) can get "blocked", leaving open pathways for players to get through projectiles, and also platforms give a players more landing options because of the lovely truth of "what goes up must come down".

Some projectile users are obviously weak once you get inside them, but it isn't exactly a staple. "Rush down" characters (like Marth and Meta Knight) have a mid range optimal area where one power shielded projectile would lead to a punish while the opponent's immediate non projectile options won't reach/aren't sufficient. Falco in Brawl though, whilst having one of the best projectiles in the game also has one of the best close range and whilst not sword-level an extremely potent mid range game as well (thanks to his jab and dash attack) that may easily beat out sword options quite easily (fast footsies from sword characters are their down tilt attacks, which falco's jab and dash attack both have the range and body leaning to go over them).

Basically Falco and Diddy Kong are gods (as is Olimar). And without platforms, their "walls" and close range options are very fluid and are not easy to have their timings mess up (due to the notion of frame traps).

 

[freesubs]

Nope, Sakurai said "These stages will be playable in For Glory mode." If it was playable normally, he would've said so.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/22mc0c/some_interesting_details_from_the_direct/

mmk, here's how I see this going:

1) Smasher plays in 'For Glory' mode

2) Smasher enjoys the competition and wants to do better

3) Smasher goes to internet/friends for information on how to get better

4) Smasher joins communities/websites dedicated to Smash Bros.

5) Smasher joins online/local tournaments that are hosted by said communities and websites that HAVE THEIR OWN RULES REGARDING STAGES.

6) Competitive Smash community experiences positive growth

7) Profit.

 

[Artsy Omni]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/22mc0c/some_interesting_details_from_the_direct/

On topic, here's how I see this going:

1) Smasher plays in 'For Glory' mode

2) Smasher enjoys the competition and wants to do better

3) Smasher goes to internet/friends for information on how to get better

4) Smasher joins communities/websites dedicated to Smash Bros.

5) Smasher joins online/local tournaments that are hosted by said communities and websites that HAVE THEIR OWN RULES REGARDING STAGES.

6) Competitive Smash community experiences positive growth

7) Profit.

You shut your mouth. That's way too logical.

 

[Dairz]

Yeah, looks like I was wrong. I never realized the Pong AT was on Pyro Destination.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

m

Though I greatly appreciate Sakurai's gesture towards the competitive players of smash, there is a huge problem. As everyone here has discussed, if all the stages are flat, there will be no stage lists or counter picks at all. If there are it will be pointless. I'm sure that not all of the FD versions will be used in tournament settings, but for competitive online play I believe that there should be stages with triangle platforms as well. Only flat stages is completely unbalanced. I hope they use the ability they have to update the game wisely. Stages like Smashville, Battlefield, Pyrosphere, and Dr. Wily's Castle looked like perfectly fine stages with the platforms. The problem is the stage hazards(Mainly Wily's Castle and Pyrosphere in this example). Why can't we just have an option to turn stage hazards off? The For Glory stage list I believe should be developed by the community and implemented for it to be enjoyed to the full extent. I look forward to experiencing the online for real this time. I just hope Sakurai sees the competitive community for what it is. All he would need to do is look at the stage lists for APEX rules and he would notice the clear pattern on the stages included in the lists.

hope u dont mind me asking but how are you so sure its unbalanced especially with the possibility of balancing the characters competitively for FD its a different game we don't know if previous game information is usefull now. for all we know every character might do very well on FD

 

[DaDavid]

m

hope u dont mind me asking but how are you so sure its unbalanced especially with the possibility of balancing the characters competitively for FD its a different game we don't know if previous game information is usefull now. for all we know every character might do very well on FD

I doubt that's the case, but it is worth holding out hope.

Not to mention that while the ideal of the community building the stage list is nice, it isn't realistic. The stage decision process, even among the few people of a backroom, is pretty hectic and not all that unified. To expect it to go more smoothly with EVERYONE who owns the game? Yeah, I'm not seeing that...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Isn't the disadvantage of a projectile user is that once someone gets passed them, they have difficulty responding to that continued pressure? I think the game could be balanced toward no platform play. The problem is we're all stuck thinking of smash in terms of platform play. Yes, certain characters are better with platforms and need them, but the thing that I want to discuss is ways to make those characters that need platforms, viable in a no platform environment. Such as greater mobility options, super armor frames, attacks that can reflect projectiles easily(In a ness bat type scenario)

You know? I finally found someone thinking on the same wave length as me right now. People are all stuck on the idea that characters need platforms to work. But what people arent getting id that the characters themselves might be adjusted to fight properly on FD without a handycap.
(in my own opinion I think counter picks prevent the game from being accepted by others who play other fighting games)

I doubt that's the case, but it is worth holding out hope.

Not to mention that while the ideal of the community building the stage list is nice, it isn't realistic. The stage decision process, even among the few people of a backroom, is pretty hectic and not all that unified. To expect it to go more smoothly with EVERYONE who owns the game? Yeah, I'm not seeing that...

It not really a hope its more like a thought thats very plausible that everybody is neglecting due to "change"


*edit* woops double post my bad

 

[DaDavid]

It not really a hope its more like a thought that very plausible that everybody is neglecting due to "change"

Yeah, I guess that's what I meant myself. Balance is obviously a concern this time around, so I'd be surprised if that was overlooked.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah, I guess that's what I meant myself. Balance is obviously a concern this time around, so I'd be surprised if that was overlooked.

All in all i just think this is not as bad as SOME make it to be.actually its not really bad at all the way im thinking about it.( im sure we all seen some real haters) so in the end if the game is being balance around FD being the main stage I think there is alot less to be worried about. ( since all the other would technically be for fun)

 

[straydoggywog]

Basically Falco and Diddy Kong are gods (as is Olimar). And without platforms, their "walls" and close range options are very fluid and are not easy to have their timings mess up (due to the notion of frame traps).

Then, we would nerf them. Give Falco a wolf blaster, or get rid of the hit stun they cause, or get rid of his lazer altogether, or gives his attacks serious start up lag so he can't respond as well to pressure. Same for Diddy, or Olimar, make adjustments to their play. This is a new game, things can be different.

 

[mimgrim]

I would imagine the metagame, would become similar to Japan's since, if I'm not mistaken (and if I am mistaken then I've been hearing misinformation the whole time I have been here), they run a FD only type thing for their tournament and stuff if FD was to become the only thing to be played on competitively here in America.