A Little MU Side-Project

[Kewkky]

Well, here's the results, in the most precise order my calculator's answers allowed me to put them... I dunno how people do the pictures and stuff, so I'll just write the results in the same format that we've said our ratios. If anyone knows how and is willing to make a nice little picture with everyone's pics on it and their ratios written under each picture like the Pika boards, I'll thank you and gladly accept it:
(numerical ratios were rounded up to the nearest 5)

Advantage

Captain Falcon... (70:30)
Ganondorf... (70:30)
Ivysaur... (70:30)
Link... (65:35)
Samus... (60:40)
Charizard... (60:40)
Yoshi... (60:40)
Bowser... (60:40)
Fox... (60:40)
Pokémon Trainer... (60:40)
Jigglypuff... (60:40)
Ike... (60:40)
Falco... (60:40) 57.5

Even

Lucas... (55:45) 56
:shiek:Sheik... (55:45) 56
Mario... (55:45) 55.5
Luigi... (55:45) 55
Squirtle... (55:45) 55
Wolf... (55:45) 54.9
Sonic... (55:45) 54.44
Ness... (55:45) 54.09
Peach... (55:45) 53.63
Zelda... (50:50) 51.25
Pit... (50:50) 51
Diddy Kong... (50:50) 50.83
King Dedede... (50:50) 48.5
Toon Link... (50:50) 47.5
Donkey Kong... (45:55) 46.5
Pikachu... (45:55) 46
Wario... (45:55) 46.5
ROB... (40:60) 45
Olimar... (45:55) 44.44
Lucario... (40:60) 43.33

Disadvantage

Zero Suit Samus... (40:60) 41.25
Game & Watch... (40:60)
Snake... (40:60)
Meta Knight... (40:60)
Marth... (40:60)
Ice Climbers... (35:65)

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Remember that Advantage stands for "You have the easier time winning", Even is "It depends on who's the more skilled", and Disadvantaged is "You have to work harder than normal in order to win"!

Now, MY complete list of character MUs would be:

Ganondorf... Advantage (70:30)
Captain Falcon... Advantage (70:30)
Ivysaur... Advantage (70:30)
Link... Advantage (65:35)
Fox... Advantage (65:35)
Bowser... Advantage (60:40)
Falco... Advantage (60:40)
Jigglypuff... Advantage (60:40)
Ike... Advantage (60:40)
Samus... Advantage (60:40)
Charizard... Advantage (60:40)
Peach... Advantage (60:40)
Yoshi... Advantage (60:40)
Wolf... Even (55:45)
Lucas... Even (55:45)
Luigi... Even (55:45)
Ness... Even (55:45)
Diddy Kong... Even (55:45)
Pokémon Trainer... Even (55:45)
:shiek:Sheik... Even (55:45)
Mario... Even (55:45)
Sonic... Even (55:45)
Olimar... Even (50:50)
Pit... Even (50:50)
Squirtle... Even (50:50)
Zelda... Even (45:55)
King Dedede... Even (45:55)
Toon Link... Even (45:55)
Pikachu... Even (45:55)
Donkey Kong... Even (45:55)
Wario... Even (45:55)
Lucario... Disadvantage (40:60)
Meta Knight... Disadvantage (40:60)
ROB... Disadvantage (40:60)
Game & Watch... Disadvantage (40:60)
Marth... Disadvantage (40:60)
Snake... Disadvantage (40:60)
Zero Suit Samus... Disadvantage (40:60)
Ice Climbers... Disadvantage (35:65)

Feel free to copy+paste, so you won't have to struggle remembering other characters' names while writing your MUs... BUT REMEMBER! The IMPORTANT part is the ADVANTAGE/EVEN/DISADVANTAGE parts! The numbers are optional! And make sure you only write up the MU's you're SURE you know! I don't want any preposterous ratios here and there, with the ONLY backup being theory!

And... It's OK if you haven't fought top level opponents, as long as you have a vague idea of what an MU feels like.

 

[Pink murder]

I remember when you talked about this.

Let me give you my input.

Advantage (70-30)

Advantage (70-30)

Advantage (65-35)

Advantage (65-35)

Advantage (65-35)

Advantage (65-35)

Advantage (65-35)

Advantage (60-40)

Advantage (60-40)

Advantage (60-40)

Advantage (60-40)

Advantage (60-40)

Advantage (60-40)

Even (55-45)

Even (55-45)

Even (55-45)

:shiek: Even (55-45)

Even (55-45)

Even (50-50)

Even (50-50)

Even (50-50)

Even (50-50)

Even (50-50)

Even (50-50)

Even (45-55)

Even (45-55)

Even (45-55)

Even (45-55)

Even (45-55)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (40-60)

Disadvantage (35-65)

Not enough MU experience:







:mewtwo:

I'm tempted to explain myself, but I'll resist.





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[Lovely]

Match up thread not going so well I see. );

 

[Kewkky]

Match up thread not going so well I see. );

It's OK I guess... But people oftentimes prefer talking about character traits, rather than player skill. Sometimes, there are such mindgames that we can do that make a match-up easier, but around MU discussions, people tell us "mindgames aren't part of an mU discussion", and end up lowering the ratio from what it's actually closer to.

The MU ratios discussed so far are all about character traits, and exclude lots of other factors. A little supplement to the MU Discussions, showing what the MUs would be like if we joined these missing factors along with what's been discussed, would only be for the better than for the worse... Who's to say that practical MUs will look different than theoretical MUs?



In conclusion: yeah, some people are frustrated with ratios... But it's not because Kirby is a worse character than before, it's because the concentration of the discussion revolves around CHARACTER traits, rather than who would actually win in a fight: Kirby, or the opponent.

The more input, the better for this little 'project', so if you would like to help contribute, I have no objections. Keep in mind that I'm checking back every once in a while, since I'd really like to see everyone's personal views on the MUs. Having seen it from different people's eyes, it would help me discern which MUs Kirby mains actually have more trouble with, and would make it easier to tell apart our hardest MUs from our harder MUs.

 

[T-nuts]

I'll take a stab at this.

Ganondorf... Advantage (65:35)
Captain Falcon... Advantage (65:35)
Link... Advantage (60:40)
Bowser... Advantage (60:40)
Jigglypuff... Advantage (60:40)
Ike... Advantage (60:40)
Yoshi... Advantage (60:40)
Pokémon Trainer... Advantage (60:40)
Lucas... Advantage (60:40)
Sonic... Even (55:45)
Samus... Even (55:45)
Peach... Even (55:45)
Ness... Even (55:45)
Sheik... Even (55:45)
Mario... Even (55:45)
Fox... Even (55:45)
Falco... Even (55:45)
Zelda... Even (55:45)
Toon Link... Even (50:50)
Wolf... Even (50:50)
Luigi... Even (50:50)
Olimar... Even (50:50)
Pit... Even (50:50)
King Dedede... Even (50:50)
Donkey Kong... Even (50:50)
Wario... Even (50:50)
Pikachu... Even (45:55)
Lucario... Even (45:55)
Diddy Kong... Even (45:55)
ROB... Even (45:55)
Game & Watch... Even (45:55)
Meta Knight... Disadvantage (40:60)
Marth... Disadvantage (40:60)
Snake... Disadvantage (40:60)
Zero Suit Samus... Disadvantage (40:60)
Ice Climbers... Disadvantage (30:70)

 

[momochuu]

Hey, good idea. I think knowing what everyone thinks of the matchups before going into a matchup thread with them is a good idea. I've seen a few other boards do this as well and it seems to have been for the better. I'll be editing this post later with my input.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Eh, why not? Some of my thoughts have changed a bit since the boards last discussed some of these characters anyways.

... Advantage (65:45)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Advantage (60:40)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (55:45)
... Even (50:50)
:shiek:... Even (50:50)
... Even (50:50)
... Even (50:50)
... Even (50:50)
... Even (50:50)
... Even (50:50)
... Even (45:55)
... Even (45:55)
... Even (45:55)
... Even (45:55)
... Even (45:55)
... Even (45:55)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (30:70)

Just know that some of these are subject to change once I know a bit more about the characters and have played against a good player that mains them.

 

[A1lion835]

I just realized how awesome this thread would be in seeing what matchup ratings no one agrees with, and thus what matchups should be rediscussed.
I'm reluctant to admit that I don't even know what a MU discussion should be like. The system people complain about us using is far from the ideal, but what most people suggest is something that I find worse than this method.
My thoughts on the MU's some other day.

 

[momochuu]

Here's my list. I'll provide reasonings if they're asked for.

Advantage (60:40 or worse)

Ganondorf... Advantage (70:30)
Captain Falcon... Advantage (70:30)
Ivysaur... Advantage (70:30)
Link... Advantage (65:35)
Fox... Advantage (65:35)
Bowser... Advantage (60:40)
Jigglypuff... Advantage (60:40)
Ike... Advantage (60:40)
Samus... Advantage (60:40)
Charizard... Advantage (60:40)
Yoshi... Advantage (60:40)
:shiek:Sheik... Advantage (60:40)
Squirtle... Advantage (60:40)
Pokémon Trainer... Advantage (60:40)


Even (50:50/55:45)
Falco... Even (55:45)
Peach... Even (55:45)
Wolf... Even (55:45)
Lucas... Even (55:45)
Luigi... Even (55:45)
Ness... Even (55:45)
Diddy Kong... Even (55:45)
Mario... Even (55:45)
Sonic... Even (55:45)
Pit... Even (50:50)
Zelda... Even (45:55)
Toon Link... Even (45:55)
Pikachu... Even (45:55)
Donkey Kong... Even (45:55)
Wario... Even (45:55)

Disadvantage (40:60)
Olimar... Disadvantage (40:60)
King Dedede... Disadvantage (40:60)
Lucario... Disadvantage (40:60)
Meta Knight... Disadvantage (40:60)
ROB... Disadvantage (40:60)
Game & Watch... Disadvantage (40:60)
Marth... Disadvantage (40:60)
Snake... Disadvantage (40:60)
Zero Suit Samus... Disadvantage (40:60)


Heavy Disadvantage (30:70)
Ice Climbers... Disadvantage (30:70)

That should be all of them. x_x Too lazy to check.

 

[aextreme73]

This is very helpful thread
I wish I was as knowledgeable to contribute, but alas, I'm a rookie
Good thoughts Kewkky and everyone else

 

[Tiersie]

Advantage

Ganondorf... (70:30)
Captain Falcon... (70:30)
Ivysaur... (70:30)

Fox... (65:35)
Bowser... (60:40)
Falco... (60:40)
Jigglypuff... (60:40)
Ike... (60:40)
Link... (60:40)
Samus... (60:40)
Charizard... (60:40)
Yoshi... (60:40)
Wolf... Advantage (60:40)

Even

Lucas... Even (55:45)
Luigi... Even (55:45)
Pit... Even (55:45)
Ness... Even (55:45)
Diddy Kong... Even (55:45)
Pokémon Trainer... Even (55:45)
King Dedede... Even (55:45)
Sheik... Even (55:45)
Mario... Even (55:45)

Squirtle... Even (50:50)
Peach... (50:50)
Toon Link... Even (50:50)
Donkey Kong... Even (50:50)

Pikachu... Even (45:55)
Olimar... Even (45:55)
Wario... Even (45:55)
Zero Suit Samus... even (45:55)
Game & Watch... Even (45:55)

Disadvantage

Lucario... Disadvantage (40:60)
Meta Knight... Disadvantage (40:60)
ROB... Disadvantage (40:60)
Snake... Disadvantage (40:60)
Ice Climbers... Disadvantage (35:65)
Marth... Disadvantage (35:65)

I can honestly say that I have never played against a zelda nor a sonic in something even remotely serious.

 

[Kewkky]

Ah, I'm starting to find sme trends here...! And also, learning about my fellow Kirby mains' (or experienced ex-mains) views on MUs without having discussions over if it should be higher/lower, has made it easier for me to see. Having no discussions makes it so that no one has to fear writing his/her thoughts without having at least one other person try to change your point of view, whih we can all agree never happens in MU discussions and only brings irritation the majority of the time.

There's a couple more Kirby mains left, so I'll be keeping an eye on the thread... This is very informative.

 

[Pink murder]

So what are you planning to do once all of the Kirby mains have stated their opinions?


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[MK26]

Maybe end up with something like this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254597

 

[Kewkky]

Zaro Suit Samus...? o_O

And yeah, I was planning on averaging out the ratios, to get a general idea of what Kirby mains feel the MUs to be, with no discussions affecting their ratio decisions. Of course, this isn't something that should outprioritize MU discussions, it's just a little side-project that I want to do. I wanna learn what others think without people getting in the way and questioning their decisions.

And well, it'd be better than seeing the ratios in an MU discussion that people disagree with. Maybe seeing that an MU hat you thought was advantageous, everyone else feels like it's even/disadvantageous, may get you thinking that there's something that character has that you haven't encountered yet, nor found out, that everyone else has... And wll get you learning the MUs more beore you find an opponent who will probably take you by surprise or something. I dunno, lots of little possibilities with a simple list of ratios.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ If other threads are performing this I guess we should as well. I won't give my thoughts until I go back to the public tourney sense... that would be the day... )= ☆

 

[jiovanni007]

Ganondorf... Advantage (70:30)
Captain Falcon... Advantage (70:30)
Ivysaur... Advantage (70:30)
Link... Advantage (70:30)
Fox... Advantage (60:40)
Bowser... Advantage (60:40)
Falco... Advantage (60:40)
Jigglypuff... Advantage (60:40)
Ike... Advantage (60:40)
Samus... Advantage (60:40)
Charizard... Advantage (60:40)
Peach... Advantage (60:40)
Yoshi... Advantage (60:40)
Ness... Advantage (60:40)
Wolf... Even (55:45)
Lucas... Even (55:45)
Luigi... Even (55:45)
Diddy Kong... Even (55:45)
Pokémon Trainer... Even (55:45)
Sheik... Even (55:45)
Mario... Even (55:45)
Sonic... Even (55:45)
Zelda... Even (55:45)
Zero Suit Samus... Even (50:50)
Pit... Even (50:50)
Squirtle... Even (50:50)
Olimar... Even (45:55)
ROB... Even (45:55)
Toon Link... Even (45:55)
Pikachu... Even (45:55)
Donkey Kong... Even (45:55)
Wario... Even (45:55)
King Dedede... Disadvantage (40:60)
Lucario... Disadvantage (40:60)
Game & Watch... Disadvantage (40:60)
Snake... Disadvantage (40:60)
Ice Climbers... Disadvantage (40:60)
Meta Knight... Disadvantage (35:65)
Marth... Large Disadvantage (30:70)

^My thoughts, not too terrible in my opinion.

 

[Kewkky]

☆ If other threads are performing this I guess we should as well. I won't give my thoughts until I go back to the public tourney sense... that would be the day... )= ☆

It's OK if you're not going to tourneys. From what I've read in your posts, and what I've read other people say about you in tourneys, you know Kirby quite well and have some nice experience under your belt. Feel free to share your opinions, we won't judge you because of what your experience has shown you.

 

[Berserker.]

Ganondorf 75:25
Captain Falcon 75:25
Samus 70:30
Ivysaur 70:30

Jigglypuff 65:35
Squirtle 65:35
Fox 65:35
Yoshi 65:35

Bowser 60:40
Charizard 60:40
Link 60:40
Ike 60:40

Wolf 55:45
Sonic 55:45
Shiek 55:45
Pit 55:45
Luigi 55:45
Falco 55:45
Diddy 55:45
Lucas 55:45
Mario 55:45
Ness 55:45

DDD 50:50 (In my opinion)
Pikachu 50:50 (I don't know why, I think it's 45:55 )
Kirby 50:50 duh..
Lucario 50:50
Toon Link 50:50
Donkey Kong 50:50
Peach 50:50

ROB 45:55
MK 45:55
Wario 45:55

Snake 40:60
Marth 40:60
G & W 40:60
Olimar 40:60
ZSS 40:60
Zelda 40:60 O_o (Dunno why too)

Ice Climbers 35:65

 

[Kewkky]

I'm going to wait a day or two more, then gonna start doing some stuff with all the ratios... I think this will be pretty awesome, right now I see everyone agrees on the 'Disadvantages' and large advantages, which is great because it tells me that we all agree on a few disadvantages and the same advantages... The 'Evens' also all look alike, which is another very good observation made by this.

I thank all of the people who've taken the time to give their input, and I hope the few experienced mainers that haven't posted yet, have a chance to post their opinions before I finish this at the end of this week.

 

[jiovanni007]

I'm going to wait a day or two more, then gonna start doing some stuff with all the ratios... I think this will be pretty awesome, right now I see everyone agrees on the 'Disadvantages' and large advantages, which is great because it tells me that we all agree on a few disadvantages and the same advantages... The 'Evens' also all look alike, which is another very good observation made by this.

I thank all of the people who've taken the time to give their input, and I hope the few experienced mainers that haven't posted yet, have a chance to post their opinions before I finish this at the end of this week.

so are u gonna do that thing the pika boards did?

 

[Kewkky]

so are u gonna do that thing the pika boards did?

Yes I will, but I also want to use the data for other things. Dunno what I might need the other mainers' opinions for in the future, though. Maybe we'll do this again once each month for a while, to see how people's opinions change and see if it's just fluctuation due to experience or that the matchups are viewed the same way during all months... That would easily point out what our hardest and easiest matchups are in practice, and not in theory.

It might not be metagame-changing, but learning more about the character and its mainers is better than letting the metagame stagnate.

 

[C~Dog]

Here's my thoughts on the matchups i'm sure of. I've sorted them into Advantage, Disadvantage and Even, which are then broken into smaller groups to further clarify the difficulty. For the first and last, they might be higher or lower, since those tiers are the extremes and i didnt want to go further.

Advantage (65-35)





Advantage (60-40)




:shiek:


Even (55-45)





Even (50-50)




Even (45-55)







Disadvantage (40-60)




Disadvantage (35-65)

 

[Kappy]

Big Advantage (70-30)




Advantage (60-40)










Even (55-45;50-50;45-55)

(55-45)
(55-45)
(55-45)
(55-45)
(50-50)
(50-50)
(50-50)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45-55)
(45:55)


Disadvantage (40-60)





('Ice Grabbers' are 20-80)

Unsure


:shiek:

 

[Berserker.]

20:80 is kinda too much, probably 30:70

 

[phi1ny3]

It's OK I guess... But people oftentimes prefer talking about character traits, rather than player skill. Sometimes, there are such mindgames that we can do that make a match-up easier, but around MU discussions, people tell us "mindgames aren't part of an mU discussion", and end up lowering the ratio from what it's actually closer to.

The MU ratios discussed so far are all about character traits, and exclude lots of other factors. A little supplement to the MU Discussions, showing what the MUs would be like if we joined these missing factors along with what's been discussed, would only be for the better than for the worse... Who's to say that practical MUs will look different than theoretical MUs?



In conclusion: yeah, some people are frustrated with ratios... But it's not because Kirby is a worse character than before, it's because the concentration of the discussion revolves around CHARACTER traits, rather than who would actually win in a fight: Kirby, or the opponent.

The more input, the better for this little 'project', so if you would like to help contribute, I have no objections. Keep in mind that I'm checking back every once in a while, since I'd really like to see everyone's personal views on the MUs. Having seen it from different people's eyes, it would help me discern which MUs Kirby mains actually have more trouble with, and would make it easier to tell apart our hardest MUs from our harder MUs.

This is a very good idea to get discussions going, and to truthfully see what more competitive Kirbys like. Unfortunately, there was one phrase that caused me to cringe: "Player skill". In the MU thread discussion, you always assume that both opponents are playing to the best of their ability and knowledge of the MU like they've friendlied eachother since they were 5 and have the game skill of M2K. That's how the MU thread works.
Aside from that though, I think it's important to discuss a characters MU taking more risky options/reading capability in mind anyways, because it's always beneficial to ask what ______ could do, instead of what _________ should/will do. This is why I created the "tactical" sections of the Lucario boards, to state whatever wasn't fit for the MU thread that is free game in a tournament setting.
So aka I approve largely of this kind of effort, but know that that's how MU threads work, and yes, it is pretty gay

On the contrast, tactical discussion (aka this thread) is important because it's something that comes from experience, and thus encourages pros to post what they've learned, and contributes to the board's growth/metagame as a whole.

 

[Pink murder]

20:80 is kinda too much, probably 30:70

Nonono, not good.

Read the thread post, that's his opinion and we aren't allowed to try and change it.


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[Kewkky]

This is a very good idea to get discussions going, and to truthfully see what more competitive Kirbys like. Unfortunately, there was one phrase that caused me to cringe: "Player skill". In the MU thread discussion, you always assume that both opponents are playing to the best of their ability and knowledge of the MU like they've friendlied eachother since they were 5 and have the game skill of M2K. That's how the MU thread works.

See, there's this little thing that I noticed a while back... If mid-level players speculate about high-level fights, how will they know how high-level players play, what they would use in each situation, and such? If they are mid-level, their decisions will be mid-level decisions and not the ones a high-level player would do. Unless real top-level players appear around mU discussions and give their input, what thos players will end up doing is talk about the BEST mid-level players, doing mid-level decisions to perfection... Another thing I've noticed is how one of the two parties discussing mentions a groundbreaking option their character has that is extremely difficult to evade in-game, and the other party just shrugs it off with a one-liner (or extends it into a full paragraph, not realizing that the problem's still there and that explaining how to evade it isn't gonna make it any less dangerous)... And what about knowing which attacks beat other's attacks? A top-level player might know that Kirby's bair/dair/fsmash beats MK's tornado, but a mid-level player might only consider fsmash due to assuming that he will always have the time to do an fsmash, or that MK will use his tornado far enough for us to land and retaliate/shield the whole thing and run in for a grab... Sometimes the most obvious option isn't the best option, and finding the difference between the good options and the best options is common occurence at top levels of play.

This isn't always true since some characters' options are the same from low-level throughout top-level, but in some situations, it is. And I've noticed this happens at certain times with Kirby MU discussions, where for example, the opponents think that spacing their retreating attacks will get them a huge advantage, and don't realize that the Kirby might just be zoning the opponent to the edges of the stage by harassing them with his shielddashing and grab ranges.

Character traits are essential of course, but how can people insinuate that player-skill isn't something to be considered equally as important?


I agree with the rest of your post. What I quoted reminded me of something I noticed, I wasn't trying to start a discussion because of what you said, so don't worry.

20:80 is kinda too much, probably 30:70

Nonono, not good.

Read the thread post, that's his opinion and we aren't allowed to try and change it.


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Exactly. Leave him with his opinion, and don't make him feel unsafe about it. For a reason or another he's saying 20:80, so his experience must tell him it's that way to him... It would imply that he plays against a good IC player.

Remember that these ratios are personal ratios, and I hope people have experience to back them up.

 

[~Shao~]

I only rated the match-ups I have more knowledge.

Advantage (60:40)
Advantage (60:40)
Advantage
Advantage
Advantage
Advantage
Advantage
Advantage
Advantage


Even (55:45)
:shiek: Even (55:45)
Even (55:45)
Even (55:45)
Even (50:50)
Even (45:55)
Even (45:55)
Even
Even
Even
Even
Even
Even
Even
Even


Disadvantage (40:60)
Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Disadvantage

not enough/non existant experience
?
?
?
?
?
?

 

[Delta Z]

Okay, gonna take a shot at this. Been getting a lot more experience with other characters lately...mostly from one guy that mains Random, but anyway...

-Advantage-
70-30
65-35
65-35
65-35
60-40
60-40
:shiek: 60-40
60-40
60-40
60-40
60-40
60-40
60-40

-Even-
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
55-45
50-50 (Uh...)
50-50
50-50
50-50
50-50
50-50
50-50
45-55
45-55
45-55
45-55

-Disadvantage-
40-60
40-60
40-60
40-60
40-60
30-70

 

[Kewkky]

I really wanted either Percon, YbM and ChuDat (in order, from possible to impossible) to come in here and write down their thoughts, but whatever.

I'll be messing with this soon enough... I'll re-bump the thread once I finish if I have to, and put up the results up in the first post.

 

[Pink murder]

Look at all those advantage MU's... (Including slight advantages)

Come to think of it, not many Kirby mains gave input... Are you going to keep taking more opinions, or is this done?


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[Tiersie]

Look at all those advantage MU's... (Including slight advantages)

Come to think of it, not many Kirby mains gave input... Are you going to keep taking more opinions, or is this done?


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All the advantageous macthups are the bottom of the tierlist + fox&Falco. Slight advantage (55-45) means even. It's not a notible advantage. A 55-45 MU can be just as uphill as a 45-55. It differs per person.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm gonna keep doing it like every 1-2 months, to see how the ratios flow. I can probably average out what are Kirby's TRUE matchups according to our players with a couple of these.


EDIT: Some of the MUs (2 of them) had numbers which were dead even between two different ratios (Falco, Toon Link)... I wrote their numbers bolded, meaning that they could go either way (55:45/60:40 for Falco, 50:50/45:55 for TL).

 

[fromundaman]

Only adding this now, since I rarely check if these boards update anymore since, well, we never do


Advantage

Link... (70:30)
Fox... (65:35)
Ganondorf (60:40)

Yoshi... (60:40)
Bowser... (60:40)
Jigglypuff... (60:40)
Ike... (60:40)
Wolf... (60:40 or 65:35)

Samus... (55:45)

Even

Falco... (55:45 or 50:50)
Lucas... (55:45) 56
:shiek:Sheik... (55:45)
Mario... (50:50)
Luigi... (50:50)
Sonic... (55:45)
Pit... (50:50)
Diddy Kong... (50:50)
King Dedede... (60:40)
Donkey Kong... (50:50)
Pikachu... (55:45)
ROB... (45:55)
Zero Suit Samus... (55:45)
Game & Watch... (45:55)

Disadvantage


Lucario... (35:65)

Snake... (40:60 or 45-55)
Meta Knight... (38:62)

Marth... (30:70)

Not Sure/need more experience


Captain Falcon
Pokémon Trainer... (haven't played any of good enough skill)
Ness... (Haven't played many as Kirby. Mario vs Ness all the way!)
Peach... (The only one I've played, though not often, was leaps and bounds better than me, so I don't know.)
Zelda... (who plays Zelda? I've only played a Zelda player once, while on LM.)
Toon Link... (No clue. Only TL player in the state is Quivo, and I have yet to play him + He's much better than me.)
Wario (Not sure. All the Warios I've played have either been way better than me or way worse.)
Olimar... (I can't figure out this F***ing matchup.)
Ice Climbers... (Haven't played any good enough to make a real opinion, but even from the 'less than good' ones I've played, it looks kind of bad.)

 

[MK26]

In the MU thread discussion, you always assume that both opponents are playing to the best of their ability and knowledge of the MU like they've friendlied eachother since they were 5 and have the game skill of M2K.

sooo...assuming brawl, seven-year-olds with m2k's skill? wow

 

[fromundaman]

sooo...assuming brawl, seven-year-olds with m2k's skill? wow

Having met the machine, you may not be as far off as you think... (He acts a lot younger than he is IMO...)

 

[Katakiri]

Guess I'll give this a whirl. This is all based on my experiences and how I play Kirby, so don't get offended if any of these sound crazy. I play an odd type of Kirby...

... Ganondorf (80:20) No safe approach against Kirby. Can actually be walled by inhale & side step.
... Falcondorf (75:25) Exact same problems as Ganon, but a little less predictable.
... Advantage (70:30) Get walled by Kirby in general.
... Advantage (60:40) Same as Bowser, but Kirby will have to approach.
... Advantage (60:40) Once offstage, inhale his jump and edge guard on the release. Very hard time approaching Kirby.
... Advantage (60:40) She's a super nerfed Smash64 Kirby.
...Advantage (60:40) All he has on Kirby is ridiculous grab range and Rock Smash. He's helpless in the air.
... Advantage (60:40) Inhale second jump, and he's dead.
... Advantage (60:40) It's not bad for Mario, but it's not good either. B-Air walls him.
... Advantage (60:40) As long as you space yourself, there's no problems here.
... Advantage (60:40) He's Lucas with a little more bite.
... Advantage (60:40) Painful CG/Juggle and no safe approach to Kirby.
:shiek:... Advantage (60:40) Basically Fox with a projectile you can't duck under.
... Advantage (60:40) It's amazingly easy to camp Falco. His approaches are easily punished.
... Even (55:45) *former Sonic main* It's tough for Sonic, but it's certainly not bad.
... Even (55:45) "Don't get hit" are the first words that come to mind when I think of Ike.
... Even (55:45) I've only played a few great Samus mains. She's a harder MU than you'd think. (For me at least)
... Even (55:45) He's basically Sheik, but he rules the ground in this MU. Stay in the air.
... Even (55:45) Believe me, I could write a book about this MU. She's basically Kirby with a projectile and more range, on-stage.
... Even (55:45) The mini Wario. Would be 50:50 but fatigue hurts his chances of killing before Kirby.
... Even (55:45) With Charizard only good for stock tanking, PT is at a slight disadvantage here.
... Even (55:45) Kirby out-ranges her in the air and she has a hard time getting kills. Otherwise, it's even.
... Even (55:45) Even, but B-Air shuts Luigi's approaches down.
... Even (55:45) Fairly even, but Pit has a hard time killing an aerial Kirby.
... Even (55:45) I've always felt this to be slightly in Kirby's favor. Keep off the ground and punish his missed attacks/grabs.
... Even (50:50) Kirby rules the air, while Pika rules the ground. Just stay off the ground and you'll be fine.
... Epic (50:50) He's Dedede. What else needs to be said?
... Even (50:50) Kirby should never have to approach Snake when he camps. Snake can't do anything to an aerial Kirby.
... Even (50:50) Kirby should never directly approach Wario. Everytime Wario gets near, counter his attacks.
... Even (50:50) It's all about who is spacing better here. Not much else to say.
... Even (45:55) Kirby has a tough time getting around those projectiles. Otherwise it would be 50:50.
... Even (45:55)Kirby, being a light character, puts him at a huge disadvantage when Aura kicks in.
... Even (45:55) IMO this match-up seems entirely stage dependent. If FD or SV, ICs win. If BF or Lylat, Kirby wins.
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)
... Disadvantage (40:60)

I didn't think it is necessary to explain those last 6. I think everyone is about in agreement about those match-ups.

 

[Pink murder]

... Even (45:55) IMO this match-up seems entirely stage dependent. If FD or SV, ICs win. If BF or Lylat, Kirby wins.

Now that's an interesting opinion.

If only you would have waited an extra day


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[Kewkky]

I guess I'll add late opinions to the points later, it would be kind of unfair to not do anything...

I'm probably gonna do a few modifications to the list to make it easier to add late opinions too, so expect some weird numbers next to each character's name... But the only important parts are the advantage/even/disadvantage parts (and the ratios), so don't worry!