Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[JigglyZelda003]

you CAN shield grab dash attack, it just has millions of active frames(dunno if Zelda can grab it). Usmash is dumb dumb

 

[Zylach]

I have next to no experience in this MU so I won't give a number. I'm not afraid of his specials. His pancakes are harmless, his hammer hurts but is also very rng heavy, his bucket absorbs Din's but the simple solution is to limit Din's use. We should be limiting it anyway since it's lackluster at best. The only one I'm not a fan of facing is his recovery since he can attack out of it, giving him options if he chooses to recover to the stage instead of the ledge. His aerials aren't too bad to face. His fair, dair, and bair all have manageable landing lag. I'm not sure on uair or nair though. The one thing I truly fear about G&W is his usmash. Never be above G&W. Never.

Like I said, I don't know the MU anywhere near where I should in order to give a number but if you have to put me down for a number, I'll just say 5:5.

 

[Macchiato]

I'd say it's close even. Also in this MU never throw out a dins fire because a dins fire Bucketed kills at 0% and recharges the whole bucket. He gets killed by the elevator at like 55%, but he can keep us in the air with Uair making us not able to land which is one of Zeldas weakness. Also note that landing on Usmash is bad because it's invincible. I'd say other than his bair, we outrange him. He can't gimp us, we can still can gimp him but it's hard. I think dtilt gimps him and Dair isn't easy to get.

55-45 Zelda

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol i know G@W doesn't have many players but man...should we give it an extra bit or just move on ahead girls?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Yeah it's been like almost a week and still no G&W players, we should probably move on

 

[Macchiato]

Oh god next is little Mac, it's not as bad as it was In the beginning but it's still bad.

 

[rabbits]

I'd say it's close even. Also in this MU never throw out a dins fire because a dins fire Bucketed kills at 0% and recharges the whole bucket. He gets killed by the elevator at like 55%, but he can keep us in the air with Uair making us not able to land which is one of Zeldas weakness. Also note that landing on Usmash is bad because it's invincible. I'd say other than his bair, we outrange him. He can't gimp us, we can still can gimp him but it's hard. I think dtilt gimps him and Dair isn't easy to get.

55-45 Zelda

I agree with what Macchiato said. I wouldn't even try to gimp GW though. Fire has a bs amount of invuln and if he uses it early he can cover himself with an aerial. GW gets all of his kill from gimps and anti air Usmash shenanigans, which we're not really vulnerable to, so I'm going to say it's slightly in Zelda's favor just because GW has trouble killing us.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh god next is little Mac, it's not as bad as it was In the beginning but it's still bad.

IDK gorl...incoming THEORY SMASH!



i'm hoping someone knows how to make this matchup seem even because right now i don't see it. Maybe at best 40:60

other than catching Macs mistakes which are hard because Zelda is slow, what else can we do? once he's offstage its a given death but unless we grab a percent or stock lead there is no reason for Mac to come to us, especially if we are hanging out near the ledge. he's too fast for safe dins, he blows through Phantom, and anytime we attack and he's nearby he can just throw out a smash and trade with us for a higher payout...what do we do? jank him with a stage? is Norfair legal? this character is dumb.

like i beat the new roll glory macs that spam smash attacks all day but i feel like if i ran into a more calculating one its not going to work out so well for Zelda because Macs ground game is so much better than her's and she can't just hang out in the air all day...

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

All I know is that this is one of the matchups where Dins is...actually useful lol. If you use Din's while he's off stage he either has to get hit by it, or airdodge and risk falling too low to recover.

 

[Zylach]

I've faced only a few macs that are really good and the matches were fairly even between us. I'm not saying that the MU is even though because it's certainly not but it's probably not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

1. Yes, his ground game is one of the best in the game, if not, the best. Zelda can't challenge him when he's on the ground. His tilts are lightning fast and his ftilt outranges all of our tools. However, none of his attacks are disjointed like ours. If we can catch him while his fists are stuck out, we can start combos on him. Our best tools for doing this are jab and dtilt (jab being the best). Jab will pop him up long enough for us to run in for a grab (at low percents) and that's when our combo game begins. Once we've gotten mac in the air, he can do nothing. Anytime he lands, that should be a free grab for us because his aerial attacks are nothing to fear so he will either look to airdodge or counter whenever we present our aerial option meaning we can empty hop to force an airdodge or counter and get a free grab the moment he lands, or wait for the animation to end and get a Lkick.

2. This MU is all about patience. I've found that I've been able to sit in shield more often against macs than any other character in the roster since mac isn't reliant on his grabs. That said, don't become predictable because mac can still grab, pummel, and wait for the grab release where we'll be in the air, exactly where we don't want to be, ever.

3. We all knew this point was coming: Once mac's off the stage, he's done. Zelda has one of the best offstage games on the roster and if we are able to put pressure on him from any distance off the stage, mac will go crashing down. Some of my favorite ways to gimp mac's awful recovery: a) Send out the phantom. Mac will often want to recover high because his side-B grants him more horizontal recovery than his up-B which is ultimately what mac lacks. If he contacts the phantom with his side-B, he'll stop right in front of it and never reach the ledge. b) Nair. Any multihitting move is great for covering the edge when the opponent wants to recover high since the only thing that can be done against attacks when recovering high is airdodging (since mac's aerials are nothing). Nair, unless the airdodge is timed perfectly, will probably hit at least once and send mac off the stage even further and probably without a second jump. Just beware of the counter recovery. If you're facing a mac that likes to use this against you, bait it and c) Dair. Even a sourspotted dair is enough to kill mac and there's next to nothing he can do about it if you chase him offstage far enough. If he airdodges it, he won't be able to get back to the stage since he will have fallen too far, if he counters it, he'll probably send himself too far down to recover high enough (unless he counters before using his second jump that is), and he can't move away from it because he won't have to horizontal recovery to return. Finally, if mac uses his up-B to recover more than his side-B, d) dtilt is your best friend. Since mac doesn't snap to the ledge with his up-B, our dtilt can hit him no matter how far down he tries to recover from because our dtilt hits below the ledge. You'll wanna time this right as he finishes the final punch though, otherwise it'll end in a trade and he'll be free to recover.

4. One of the main things we'll have to worry about besides always being at a disadvantage against him on the ground is, if he gets us off the stage, we have so few options against his edgeguarding. Recovering on the stage is absolutely our worst option because he can close the distance, no matter how far we go, and hit us before the endlag of FW is finished. Teleporting to the ledge is our best option but beware of the few frames of vulnerability as we snap to the ledge because he can throw out dsmashes for days and for whatever reason, his dsmash reaches WAY lower than it ought to. I think Zelda has one of the easiest times combating his dsmash edgeguard though since she doesn't have any frames of vulnerability before the ledge snap vulnerability as opposed to most of the roster (I pity those characters without active hitboxes on their up-B's in this MU). Once we're on the ledge, things get tricky. Mac's dsmash covers regular getup, ledge hop, and roll. I've been hit by mac's dsmash when ledge jumping as well and attacking from the ledge is rarely a good idea in any MU, let alone this one. I only ever attack from the ledge if an opponent is charging a smash attack and doing this against mac is suicide.

5. Final point. Mac kills us ridiculously early, especially with his upward-angled fsmash. Granted, we can kill him the moment he's off the stage but that requires him being off the stage in the first place. He only needs us to be above 60% and anywhere on the stage to kill. Not only that but his smashes are quite safe on shield since they all push shielding opponent back so far and he's got hardly any endlag on any of his moves not to mention the superarmor so challenging him when he wants to get a kill is nigh impossible.

In conclusion, this MU was a lot worse early in the game's lifespan than it is now. Playing patiently is our best weapon against mac and once he's off the stage, he's dead. Getting him there is the hard part though and when we're on the stage, we're in his domain. I'm saying:
40:60

 

[BJN39]

I'll stick this one at 40:60 as well. It's pretty bad, but we (Including plenty of me.) might've overrated how bad it really was. Get him offstage AND NEVER MISS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GIMP HIM.

Will get the Macs and deliver the past score totals shortly~

@ JigglyZelda003
The scores for Diddy and G&W calculated to 35:65 and 5:5 respectively. Though, there was a very small amount of inputs on G&W's, so perhaps it should get a note of low discussion.

 

[Zylach]

I'll also point out that Zelda's customs help her a lot in this MU. With as many windboxes as her customs allow her to have, Mac can't handle windboxes, especially when using his side-B and neutral-B on stage (Which a pro player shouldn't be doing but it's still an option). Offstage gimps are a lot easier with windboxes as well. Plus, din's blaze to set ledge traps that mac literally can't do anything against and phantom breaker for mid-range zoning which makes the neutral game slightly better for her.

 

[Macchiato]

I give this a 45-55
Little Mac rushes us down hard and he total outclasses us on the ground. The best thing for zelda is to take advantages of whiffs and grab him when he's charging a smash. It's also great to take advantage of his landing lag when he's land after a combo. We can Dthrow and bair for an airdodge and punish. We can gimp him pretty easily due to his horrid recovery. Din's fire is useful in this Match Up like Andrew said, if we throw one out he gets hit or airdodges and gets too low. Phantom can get him horrizontally and we have the great dair. He can't edgeguard us but it might be hard for us to get on the stage since his Dsmash is really fast.

With customs I say we win 60-40.
Although he can still Rush us down, we can gimp him even when he's onstage with squall, squall can throw him offstage during his ending lag and that will put him into free fall. Since his recovery doesn't snap the ledge, squalls huge windbox will gimp him. We can also break out of his jab. Passions suction effect can pull him off the stage if he's charging a smash on the ledge and cancel it. It's also really ranged and can punish his stuff if she can't get a grab. It's also safe on shield. It can also gimp him offstage, offstage he can get gimped by the windbox or get hit and die. Flare is great due to its speed against Mac, it also kills at 60%. The speed and range helps us keep pressure and can actually help us approach against some characters. All the phantoms are good.

 

[Gay Ginger]

This match-up is terrible and definitely nowhere close to even. Even 40:60 is way too optimistic in my opinion.

Sure Zelda can gimp Little Mac very early because of his super bad recovery, but there's one serious problem: getting him off the stage in the first place. Sure, Zelda can manage it against bad or mediocre Little Mac players who spam smash attacks or rush in for no reason, but what can Zelda do against a smart, patient Mac? Almost nothing.

His ground moves are too fast and have, for the most part, very little lag. The super armor on his smash attacks troll our transcendent priority moves, especially her multi-hit attacks like her forward smash, as she will not only take high damage while dealing as little as 1% but also be sent flying. All Mac has to do is get a good read on us and he can trade with us -- and it'll almost always be favorable to him. His jab and tilts shut us down.

His attacks can KO us incredibly early; combine that with their speed, super armor, and Zelda's laggy and punishable moves, and we're likely to be losing stocks much earlier than we'd like.

The KO punch makes this match incredibly stressful because one mistake and it's over. Even if we somehow manage to take the lead against a good Mac, because his KO meter goes up when we deal damage to him, he can retaliate and steal the lead by killing us as at percentages as low as 15-20%. It can't be shielded (though if we're careful our Phantom can stop it) and he can combo into it out of his super fast jab, so it's not really that difficult for them to land -- certainly not nearly difficult enough for how much of a game changer it is.

We can stress how easy it is to gimp him as much as we like, but remember: we could gimp Brawl Olimar even easier (just down smash or dash attack and edge-hog) and yet that match-up was 20:80 -- nearly unwinnable -- because we could almost never get him into that position in the first place.

Just look at Nairo's Zelda vs this Little Mac:

Spoiler

I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but in my opinion this is probably Zelda's worst match-up -- if not surely one of her worst -- and it's at least 30:70.

I'm more tempted to say it's even worse though and for my final score I'll say it's 25: 75 because I just don't see what Zelda can do against a highly skilled, patient Little Mac. Maybe it's different with customs, but I'm sticking with this score for non-custom matches.

 

[Macchiato]

This match-up is terrible and definitely nowhere close to even. Even 40:60 is way too optimistic in my opinion.

Sure Zelda can gimp Little Mac very early because of his super bad recovery, but there's one serious problem: getting him off the stage in the first place. Sure, Zelda can manage it against bad or mediocre Little Mac players who spam smash attacks or rush in for no reason, but what can Zelda do against a smart, patient Mac? Almost nothing.

His ground moves are too fast and have, for the most part, very little lag. The super armor on his smash attacks troll our transcendent priority moves, especially her multi-hit attacks like her forward smash, as she will not only take high damage while dealing as little as 1% but also be sent flying. All Mac has to do is get a good read on us and he can trade with us -- and it'll almost always be favorable to him. His jab and tilts shut us down.

His attacks can KO us incredibly early; combine that with their speed, super armor, and Zelda's laggy and punishable moves, and we're likely to be losing stocks much earlier than we'd like.

The KO punch makes this match incredibly stressful because one mistake and it's over. Even if we somehow manage to take the lead against a good Mac, because his KO meter goes up when we deal damage to him, he can retaliate and steal the lead by killing us as at percentages as low as 15-20%. It can't be shielded (though if we're careful our Phantom can stop it) and he can combo into it out of his super fast jab, so it's not really that difficult for them to land -- certainly not nearly difficult enough for how much of a game changer it is.

We can stress how easy it is to gimp him as much as we like, but remember: we could gimp Brawl Olimar even easier (just down smash or dash attack and edge-hog) and yet that match-up was 20:80 -- nearly unwinnable -- because we could almost never get him into that position in the first place.

Just look at Nairo's Zelda vs this Little Mac:

Spoiler

I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but in my opinion this is probably Zelda's worst match-up -- if not surely one of her worst -- and it's at least 30:70.

I'm more tempted to say it's even worse though and for my final score I'll say it's 25: 75 because I just don't see what Zelda can do against a highly skilled, patient Little Mac. Maybe it's different with customs, but I'm sticking with this score for non-custom matches.

Too much pessimism. NOOOO.

@ JigglyZelda003 i updated my post for the wario match up so now yew can update it

 

[JigglyZelda003]

honestly that's how i feel about the matchup, just how @ Gay Ginger described. but i have yet to fight the Macs offline to have a more positive outlook.

btw how solid is Macs super armor? like i know a strong enough move can breakthrough some SA, can we kick it and win or is it still a loss? just asking out of hope

 

[Seki_]

I agree with Jiggly and Ginger, this is a matchup that Zeldas should be terrified of. He gets you off stage and he can just edge guard you with his insane vertical ledge coverage, and the one thing Zelda has on that (Farore's) can be covered by a smart Mac that knows how to use his counter. On the other hand, one SS fair at 40%+ close to the edge can kill mac. If you ask me, this is a 25-75 in favor of Mac. He covers all of Zelda's options, and apart from our friends in S tier he can probably benefit the most from Zelda's poor frame data. It's not impossible for Zelda, but the pretty gurl in question is gonna have to pull some sick moves to make it happen.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I agree with Jiggly and Ginger, this is a matchup that Zeldas should be terrified of. He gets you off stage and he can just edge guard you with his insane vertical ledge coverage, and the one thing Zelda has on that (Farore's) can be covered by a smart Mac that knows how to use his counter. On the other hand, one SS fair at 40%+ close to the edge can kill mac. If you ask me, this is a 25-75 in favor of Mac. He covers all of Zelda's options, and apart from our friends in S tier he can probably benefit the most from Zelda's poor frame data. It's not impossible for Zelda, but the pretty gurl in question is gonna have to pull some sick moves to make it happen.

I don't think its THAT bad for Zelda, I almost say it's even, but likely in Macs favor(we are talking about FG perspectives correct?)
I mean, yea she's slow, which is possibly IMO, her biggest weakness in a lot of her MU, but she has power, and that forward smash is actually a lot better then people would think.
If we are talking about flat stages, yea likely in Macs favor, but on platforms, maybe somewhat even.
It's just easy to understand how Zelda plays, because she is predictable overall.
But I still like her a lot better in this game then any of the others.

I wonder, do you think the slight Input delay in Online matches hurt Zelda more then Mac?
Her attacks do have to be precise so I would imagine so.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I don't think its THAT bad for Zelda, I almost say it's even, but likely in Macs favor(we are talking about FG perspectives correct?)

well we are supposed to discuss matchups assuming both players are playing at an even high skill level. thats why i said in my first post what i believe the matchup will become because Roll Glory is a hit and miss place. its mostly a terrible place to learn matchups since it voids stage discussion (and littered with bad players) but it is possible to learn some things from Roll Glory if that's all one practices on and fights decent players.

I wonder, do you think the slight Input delay in Online matches hurt Zelda more then Mac?
Her attacks do have to be precise so I would imagine so.

for Mac i believe so because its harder to punish the tiny openings Mac has as well as Perfect shield and space effectively, but Online makes Nayrus and Faroes more viable, its always been a hit and miss realm for Zelda

 

[Brinzy]

Little Mac has smash attacks that come out faster than some of Zelda's tilts, her grab, and her jab.

The one fight where Zelda has the better aerial game and it actually doesn't matter.

This match-up is easily a 30:70. If Mac had a recovery and/or actual aerials, it would be even worse. Not that he needs them for this fight.

 

[Zylach]

This match-up is terrible and definitely nowhere close to even. Even 40:60 is way too optimistic in my opinion.

Sure Zelda can gimp Little Mac very early because of his super bad recovery, but there's one serious problem: getting him off the stage in the first place. Sure, Zelda can manage it against bad or mediocre Little Mac players who spam smash attacks or rush in for no reason, but what can Zelda do against a smart, patient Mac? Almost nothing.

His ground moves are too fast and have, for the most part, very little lag. The super armor on his smash attacks troll our transcendent priority moves, especially her multi-hit attacks like her forward smash, as she will not only take high damage while dealing as little as 1% but also be sent flying. All Mac has to do is get a good read on us and he can trade with us -- and it'll almost always be favorable to him. His jab and tilts shut us down.

His attacks can KO us incredibly early; combine that with their speed, super armor, and Zelda's laggy and punishable moves, and we're likely to be losing stocks much earlier than we'd like.

The KO punch makes this match incredibly stressful because one mistake and it's over. Even if we somehow manage to take the lead against a good Mac, because his KO meter goes up when we deal damage to him, he can retaliate and steal the lead by killing us as at percentages as low as 15-20%. It can't be shielded (though if we're careful our Phantom can stop it) and he can combo into it out of his super fast jab, so it's not really that difficult for them to land -- certainly not nearly difficult enough for how much of a game changer it is.

We can stress how easy it is to gimp him as much as we like, but remember: we could gimp Brawl Olimar even easier (just down smash or dash attack and edge-hog) and yet that match-up was 20:80 -- nearly unwinnable -- because we could almost never get him into that position in the first place.

Just look at Nairo's Zelda vs this Little Mac:

Spoiler

I hate to be the Debbie Downer, but in my opinion this is probably Zelda's worst match-up -- if not surely one of her worst -- and it's at least 30:70.

I'm more tempted to say it's even worse though and for my final score I'll say it's 25: 75 because I just don't see what Zelda can do against a highly skilled, patient Little Mac. Maybe it's different with customs, but I'm sticking with this score for non-custom matches.

Is it just me or did it look like Nairo wasn't playing to his usual standard in this match? It looked like he was floundering, throwing out attacks in hopes that they would hit. I also think this match showcases just how patient you have to be in this MU. Playing aggressively at all makes the match look like this. It was kinda scary, though, to see all of mac's attacks go right through Nayru's and his dtilt --> KO punch is so stupid. Even with this evidence I'd say that 30:70 is the worst this MU could be.

 

[BJN39]

I agree with @ Zylach , I'd seen that match before this, and Nairo (imo) was a little off from his usual play. (iirc, there was a non-YT battle between Nairo's Zelda and a Mac where it was way less horrible.) I also think some of y'all are putting the score a little out of proportion. Sure, it's definitely a disadvantage where one might even consider switching from Zelda, but 25:75 is downright horrid, and I definitely don't think this MU is on the same level as Brawl Snake/MK/Olimar of hopelessness. (Olimar only sort of as it sometimes gets scored even worse lol.)

 

[Nairo]

I admit that wasnt the best match but I uploaded that to show good matches that I had and good matches my brother had that day. So I wouldnt completely judge the MU based off that one match. Zelda doesnt win though but it isnt 25:75 I can tell you that much maybe 35:65. At best though would probably be 4:6 in macs favor. I used to think the MU was her worst MU but HOOHAH came along lolol and of course I played the MU more and more. I played like 25 games vs mvds mac and lost probably like 1 or 2 I forget. So I got a decent idea on the MU. Also dsmashs range hits his recovery from a decent amount under the ledge so the timing isnt super hard(and itd kill at like 30). Though I can understand why people would think the MU is bad if they were to see the match on my channel lolol ILL TRY TO UPLOAD A BETTER MATCH OF THAT MU IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

Edit: Now that I think about it...ITS LITTLE MAC ITS SO HARD TO REALLY CALCULATE ANY OF HIS MUS BECAUSE HE CAN BODY SOMEONE OR GET BODIED LOL

 

[Seki_]

nairo senpai pls

 

[Nairo]

nairo senpai pls

SORRY SENPAI! BUT PEEP THAT EDIT THOUGH IT HIT ME WHILE I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT IT.

 

[evmaxy54]

SORRY SENPAI! BUT PEEP THAT EDIT THOUGH IT HIT ME WHILE I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT IT.

DID THE THOUGHT CAME IN LIKE A WRECKING BALL

OR DID IT COME VIA THE ELEVATOR

???

But yea this MU is icky, but pivoted Ftilt is love pivoted Ftilt is life & I can see PP Jab being quite useful for this MU but I need to try it out.

35:65 IMO for reasons already said

Don't go to FD unless you find getting bodied by a 6/10 kinky or something

 

[Brinzy]

I agree with @ Zylach , I'd seen that match before this, and Nairo (imo) was a little off from his usual play. (iirc, there was a non-YT battle between Nairo's Zelda and a Mac where it was way less horrible.) I also think some of y'all are putting the score a little out of proportion. Sure, it's definitely a disadvantage where one might even consider switching from Zelda, but 25:75 is downright horrid, and I definitely don't think this MU is on the same level as Brawl Snake/MK/Olimar of hopelessness. (Olimar only sort of as it sometimes gets scored even worse lol.)

I mostly said 30:70 because I like zeros, and it feels closer to a 3:7 if we're theorycrafting options and statistics because Little Mac should only really have to leave his comfort zone when 1) there are platforms and he's forced to approach, and 2) when he's forced in the air. Zelda has to force LM to make mistakes because she's significantly slower than him and he still has super armor, which totally screws her multi-hit attacks since they don't seem to break him out of it.

I'm sure it's a lot easier to win against an impatient opponent, but Little Mac can literally just stand in neutral and punish a lot of what Zelda tries to do. Against a typical type of Mac I'd say just 4:6. Against a really good one I feel it's still 3:7.

Either way it'd be nice to get some LMs here to give us their input.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hello Zelda mains, I've gotten some decent Mac play under my belt and would like to help the discussion with my input before you close it. I'm always delighted to see people actually taking Mac seriously with their theories. It seems like all I ever read on other boards is "Mac? Pfft, 80:20 advantage to us, easy. Next topic."

Reading your analysis thus far, you've all got a good enough grasp of Mac's strengths. But let's recap some important points. Mac's moves have low end lag and come out quicker than most of the cast. Frame 1 jab, frame 3 dtilt, frame 4 ftilt (first hit), frame 2 Nair, and frame 3 UpB which includes invulnerability for the first few frames, making for an excellent OoS option. Mac's super armor smashes are all about trades just as much as killing It's important to realize that Mac is the one character in this game that wants to take damage. Rage boosts the KO potential of his mostly kill oriented moveset. Mac's KO meter builds up three times more from taking damage, rather than dealing damage. Having more damage means getting sent higher to help Mac recover, and farther to help mac escape combos and gimps. Finally, when sitting at around 100% Mac can, and will take advantage of the opponent's desperation. Patiently and defensively looking for ways to punch through an opponent's increasingly risky options. When you're a stock down against Mac be sure to play calmly and smartly.

Luckily, Zelda, like every character has access to Mac's eternal foe - grabs. Now, hear me out. Grabs don't have super armor in Smash 4, and Mac has a frame 1 jab. Believe me, I understand this better than most. But remember that the one thing that beat's Mac's super armor smashes is a grab, or command grab, but Zelda doesn't have any. And many of Mac's attacks are indeed shield grabbable, particularly F tilt and dash attack Do not miss an opportunity to punish these. Mac's moves are not easy to punish without perfect shielding, but sitting in your shield is better than throwing a move of your own for him to trade with. The super armor on his moves lasts only a few frames before the hitbox is active, in case you were wondering. So, I wouldn't rely on multihits like jab and Fsmash, but they can work if you catch him before his charge window.

I should mention that Mac's grabs are poop. Low range and pretty punishable on whiff. That means he has a bad shieldgrab, which explains why we challenge every aerial thrown at us with our smashes, not shield. Keep that in mind when considering aerials.

Also, use Din's Fire on Mac as he's recovering. Yes he can counter it and actually get closer to the ledge because of it. That's why you're going to detonate Din's Fire before it actually reaches Mac. When Mac counters offstage, and it's unsuccessful, he'll fall far enough that he usually can't reach the ledge. The proper response from Mac would be to save his double jump so that he can air dodge with it without killing himself. Still, it's an intimidating move for him. You can also go out offstage to meet him as he recovers to further mind game him. By falling to him and not attacking, you force him to choose between airdodge jump and counter. If you choose to attack, keep that finger over your shield button in case you need to tech a stage spike from counterattack.

Doesn't Zelda's Dsmash have a low knockback angle? You should use that. Like, a lot. These moves are killer on Mac because they afford him no height to aid his recovery. If Mac does reach the ledge, it may be your best opportunity to use Dsmash, since it covers the options that Mac will ideally want to use. Ledge getup, ledge getup attack, and ledge roll.

I hope I've provided some good theories. I do not play Zelda, so if the real key to this MU was somehow Phantom or something, I couldn't tell you about that. But I feel an affection for anybody trying to make these less fortunate characters work in a competitive setting. Keep your chin up and don't leave any chink in your armor. This is boxing.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hello Zelda mains, I've gotten some decent Mac play under my belt and would like to help the discussion with my input before you close it. I'm always delighted to see people actually taking Mac seriously with their theories. It seems like all I ever read on other boards is "Mac? Pfft, 80:20 advantage to us, easy. Next topic."

Reading your analysis thus far, you've all got a good enough grasp of Mac's strengths. But let's recap some important points. Mac's moves have low end lag and come out quicker than most of the cast. Frame 1 jab, frame 3 dtilt, frame 4 ftilt (first hit), frame 2 Nair, and frame 3 UpB which includes invulnerability for the first few frames, making for an excellent OoS option. Mac's super armor smashes are all about trades just as much as killing It's important to realize that Mac is the one character in this game that wants to take damage. Rage boosts the KO potential of his mostly kill oriented moveset. Mac's KO meter builds up three times more from taking damage, rather than dealing damage. Having more damage means getting sent higher to help Mac recover, and farther to help mac escape combos and gimps. Finally, when sitting at around 100% Mac can, and will take advantage of the opponent's desperation. Patiently and defensively looking for ways to punch through an opponent's increasingly risky options. When you're a stock down against Mac be sure to play calmly and smartly.

Luckily, Zelda, like every character has access to Mac's eternal foe - grabs. Now, hear me out. Grabs don't have super armor in Smash 4, and Mac has a frame 1 jab. Believe me, I understand this better than most. But remember that the one thing that beat's Mac's super armor smashes is a grab, or command grab, but Zelda doesn't have any. And many of Mac's attacks are indeed shield grabbable, particularly F tilt and dash attack Do not miss an opportunity to punish these. Mac's moves are not easy to punish without perfect shielding, but sitting in your shield is better than throwing a move of your own for him to trade with. The super armor on his moves lasts only a few frames before the hitbox is active, in case you were wondering. So, I wouldn't rely on multihits like jab and Fsmash, but they can work if you catch him before his charge window.

I should mention that Mac's grabs are poop. Low range and pretty punishable on whiff. That means he has a bad shieldgrab, which explains why we challenge every aerial thrown at us with our smashes, not shield. Keep that in mind when considering aerials.

Also, use Din's Fire on Mac as he's recovering. Yes he can counter it and actually get closer to the ledge because of it. That's why you're going to detonate Din's Fire before it actually reaches Mac. When Mac counters offstage, and it's unsuccessful, he'll fall far enough that he usually can't reach the ledge. The proper response from Mac would be to save his double jump so that he can air dodge with it without killing himself. Still, it's an intimidating move for him. You can also go out offstage to meet him as he recovers to further mind game him. By falling to him and not attacking, you force him to choose between airdodge jump and counter. If you choose to attack, keep that finger over your shield button in case you need to tech a stage spike from counterattack.

Doesn't Zelda's Dsmash have a low knockback angle? You should use that. Like, a lot. These moves are killer on Mac because they afford him no height to aid his recovery. If Mac does reach the ledge, it may be your best opportunity to use Dsmash, since it covers the options that Mac will ideally want to use. Ledge getup, ledge getup attack, and ledge roll.

I hope I've provided some good theories. I do not play Zelda, so if the real key to this MU was somehow Phantom or something, I couldn't tell you about that. But I feel an affection for anybody trying to make these less fortunate characters work in a competitive setting. Keep your chin up and don't leave any chink in your armor. This is boxing.

Does Mac's UpB sweetspot the ledge at all?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Does Mac's UpB sweetspot the ledge at all?

Not at all. The move must finish completely before he can grab a ledge. Getting hit while rising has always been the least of my worries while recovering, but yeah, you can hit him then with a timed Dins Fire. Aerials are risky because of Rising Uppercut's exceptional speed and hitbox priority. Jolt Haymaker (side B) is similar. The hitbox must come out before he can grab a ledge, but Mac has control over when that punch comes out. Aerials work better on that because of its horizontal use.

 

[Seki_]

Hm, interesting. So it seems like the skill cap for this match is very high for Zelda, but she has options for gimping as it is Little Mac. I'd probably go with a reasonable 35-65 for Mac at this point.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

guess who's up next gorls, this might be a long discussion coming up...tomorrow

 

[Seki_]

pls let it be Marth. I'm going to a local at the the end of this month and there are only 2 decent players there. One of which plays Ness which is EZ money and the other is a killer Marth player who I've never seen play

 

[Zylach]

If we're following the order I think we're following, It ought to be Link.

 

[Seki_]

If we're following the order I think we're following, It ought to be Link.

oh dear

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Seki_ we are on Link for this week, but if it helps any we did do a discussion on Lucy so maybe that will help? just add tipper onto everything.

as for Link though...

i like how Sakurai fixed your Fsmash, but not mine
i like how Sakurai made your Fsmash inescapable but mine still has 90% accuracy
i like how Sakurai made you faster, but not me
I like how sakurai lets you keep your camp game but can't give me one
at least my face looks better


in all seriousness though Link is still obnoxious, not Toonie obnoxious but coming dangerously close especially since being floaty has no meaning anymore because no DI. we can faroes into predicted camping shenanigans like a bomb pull or boomerang toss but i still feel Zelda is pretty hard pressed and frustrated dealing with Link. 40:60

 

[Macchiato]

@ Seki_ we are on Link for this week, but if it helps any we did do a discussion on Lucy so maybe that will help? just add tipper onto everything.

as for Link though...

i like how Sakurai fixed your Fsmash, but not mine
i like how Sakurai made your Fsmash inescapable but mine still has 90% accuracy
i like how Sakurai made you faster, but not me
I like how sakurai lets you keep your camp game but can't give me one
at least my face looks better


in all seriousness though Link is still obnoxious, not Toonie obnoxious but coming dangerously close especially since being floaty has no meaning anymore because no DI. we can faroes into predicted camping shenanigans like a bomb pull or boomerang toss but i still feel Zelda is pretty hard pressed and frustrated dealing with Link. 40:60

Correction, people still fall out of his fsmash.

Idk I feel like this MU is even but I haven't played many GOOD links in tournament. The ones I've played were as good as aerodromes opponents in pools.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Correction, people still fall out of his fsmash.

Idk I feel like this MU is even but I haven't played many GOOD links in tournament. The ones I've played were as good as aerodromes opponents in pools.

Yea I think it's pretty even, they both have some laggy attacks, Both have good power, both are slow, both have lackluster approach.
Because Links projectiles are slow, reflector is better in this MU then Tink.
Not to mention, if you can time it correctly as they try to use a projectile, you can FW and get some good knockback on them.
Link out ranges us and his KO moves are slightly better?
But he is easier to combo and it's not like he has the speed to catch up to us even if we suffer lag from afar.

 

[Seki_]

Zelda can deal with Link's projectiles between phantom and Nayru's, I'd be more scared of Link's neutral game if he had a good dash attack. Other than that Link's jab gives him good spacing on Zelda, he can be gimpable by dair though. These are both midweight characters, so Link can get some cheeky kills with fsmash, while Zelda can kill with Televator at around the same %. Overall Zelda has her options, but I'd say Link's options are slightly better. 60:40 for Link is what I'd say right now

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zelda can deal with Link's projectiles between phantom and Nayru's, I'd be more scared of Link's neutral game if he had a good dash attack. Other than that Link's jab gives him good spacing on Zelda, he can be gimpable by dair though. These are both midweight characters, so Link can get some cheeky kills with fsmash, while Zelda can kill with Televator at around the same %. Overall Zelda has her options, but I'd say Link's options are slightly better. 60:40 for Link is what I'd say right now

Yea, that's basically it.
Though What about their techniques?
I don't know if Link has any, but Zelda has some nice ones though.