Seki_
Smash Cadet
Neither has particularly advanced tech that would help them in this MU. I know Link's USmash definitely shuts down Zelda's 45-Death combo, but other than that not sure of anything
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Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong
- Thread starter JigglyZelda003
- Start date
Zylach
Smash Ace
This MU is really annoying but not really overly difficult as long as Zelda is observant and patient. Link may be able to out-camp us but his laggy projectiles mean we get free FWs. Plus Nayru's Love is more than useful here. Reflecting his bombs throws off his zoning game and reflecting his boomerang resets to neutral which is mostly just fun to do more than anything. I think I have, only once, gimped Link's recovery by reflecting a boomerang he threw to cover himself. It was glorious. One of my biggest problems facing Links is that they outrange us hardcore. Getting in for grabs or dtilts is really difficult when he's got such a powerful jab (not to mention the almighty jab cancel into jab) and utilt for covering his head from our dairs. Moreover, if we do get in and start strings, he can interrupt them with his nair.
What we've got going for us is our ability to kill him before he kills us though we have to work a lot harder for those kills than he does since he has guaranteed setups into his smashes unlike us. However, our offstage game works relatively well against him. Getting Link with a dair offstage is tricky though since his up-B is quite safe and he has the option to hookshot to the ledge as well. I usually prefer going for a bair-->stage spike on him.
This MU is very tricky but Link has several laggy moves that we can punish and that's what Zelda likes. Hit him when he uses his ftilt, dsmash, fsmash, and even utilt and dtilt. Also never miss an opportunity to punish his whiffed grabs since you have all the time in the world to do so. I haven't faced Links in a tournament setting but seeing Izaw's art of Link, I'm certain that Link has a lot of tricks up his sleeve that make him a terrifying opponent to face but not one that we can't handle. Having a reflector makes Link look a lot less scary. The only thing I truly fear about him is his range. I'll say:
50:50
(P.S: I know I say this a lot but this MU is a lot easier with customs)
What we've got going for us is our ability to kill him before he kills us though we have to work a lot harder for those kills than he does since he has guaranteed setups into his smashes unlike us. However, our offstage game works relatively well against him. Getting Link with a dair offstage is tricky though since his up-B is quite safe and he has the option to hookshot to the ledge as well. I usually prefer going for a bair-->stage spike on him.
This MU is very tricky but Link has several laggy moves that we can punish and that's what Zelda likes. Hit him when he uses his ftilt, dsmash, fsmash, and even utilt and dtilt. Also never miss an opportunity to punish his whiffed grabs since you have all the time in the world to do so. I haven't faced Links in a tournament setting but seeing Izaw's art of Link, I'm certain that Link has a lot of tricks up his sleeve that make him a terrifying opponent to face but not one that we can't handle. Having a reflector makes Link look a lot less scary. The only thing I truly fear about him is his range. I'll say:
50:50(P.S: I know I say this a lot but this MU is a lot easier with customs)
Feel free to put in your input anyways! I don't think JigglyZelda will mind. G&W didn't get a whole lot of discussion anyways.
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
I wish Wisconsin had local tournaments close to where I live.........This MU is really annoying but not really overly difficult as long as Zelda is observant and patient. Link may be able to out-camp us but his laggy projectiles mean we get free FWs. Plus Nayru's Love is more than useful here. Reflecting his bombs throws off his zoning game and reflecting his boomerang resets to neutral which is mostly just fun to do more than anything. I think I have, only once, gimped Link's recovery by reflecting a boomerang he threw to cover himself. It was glorious. One of my biggest problems facing Links is that they outrange us hardcore. Getting in for grabs or dtilts is really difficult when he's got such a powerful jab (not to mention the almighty jab cancel into jab) and utilt for covering his head from our dairs. Moreover, if we do get in and start strings, he can interrupt them with his nair.
What we've got going for us is our ability to kill him before he kills us though we have to work a lot harder for those kills than he does since he has guaranteed setups into his smashes unlike us. However, our offstage game works relatively well against him. Getting Link with a dair offstage is tricky though since his up-B is quite safe and he has the option to hookshot to the ledge as well. I usually prefer going for a bair-->stage spike on him.
This MU is very tricky but Link has several laggy moves that we can punish and that's what Zelda likes. Hit him when he uses his ftilt, dsmash, fsmash, and even utilt and dtilt. Also never miss an opportunity to punish his whiffed grabs since you have all the time in the world to do so. I haven't faced Links in a tournament setting but seeing Izaw's art of Link, I'm certain that Link has a lot of tricks up his sleeve that make him a terrifying opponent to face but not one that we can't handle. Having a reflector makes Link look a lot less scary. The only thing I truly fear about him is his range. I'll say:
(P.S: I know I say this a lot but this MU is a lot easier with customs)
Btw now that you mention customs, which combination would you generally recommend?
I don't have friends soooooo.........
I just play against CPU and I think the customs that are good are....(can't remembernames exactly)
Neutral B that turns opponents around.
UpB that has a wind hit boxes and travels a slightly larger distance it seems.
DownB the one that I find hard to decide, but I use the one that deals the most shield damage, though because of that, obviously people wouldn't shield...... So maybe I should go for the more powerful one?
Last but not least
Side B that takes time before it fully explodes, perfect for characters with slower recoveries.
Despite what everyone theorized, I actually think G&W has an advantage on Zelda. I can't say I know the exact amount, but I'll tentatively put it on a 60:40 on his favor.
Even though his aerials all have a lot of added landing lag in comparison to Brawl, G&W's much better at catching landings this time around because of his eternal dash attack and his still decent multihit aerials. The turtle might not be what it used to, but it's still pretty solid as an OoS option against laggy stuff (which is like 80% of Zelda), and he now has pretty solid combos from d-throw too. The ridic amounts of windboxes he has - on uair (which I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to push upwards even on airdodges), up-B and d-tilt- also help him keeping Zelda in the air, where she's nearly a sitting duck against him. A good G&W will try to manipulate your landing as best as he can, and that's what Zelda does worst. An option would be trying to go for a teleport cancel, but if he manages to get a windbox on you while you're FWing that's it. A baited airdodge can lead to a helmet head too, which will kill Zelda very early.
Off-stage, I'd say neither can do much against the other. G&W probably has slightly more options to mess with Zelda's recovery because of his windboxes, but there's not much he can do if she recovers low. Likewise, it's REALLY hard to spike him or gimp him because of the massive S-armor on his up-B, so it's relatively pointless to chase him out.
Like with most MUs vs lightweights, Zelda's only real advantage is that she can kill him very early if G&W isn't patient after racking damage up. The neutral game between both characters is gonna be slow and full of empty approaches because Zelda can't throw Din's out and G&W would be stupid to try and use Chef. The only mid-range option is Phantom spacing, but it's not really that hard to get around while grounded. Also, G&W has better empty-approach options than Zelda because he's not as easily telegraphed as she is, and he has much better aerial mobility, both horizontally and vertically.
Even though his aerials all have a lot of added landing lag in comparison to Brawl, G&W's much better at catching landings this time around because of his eternal dash attack and his still decent multihit aerials. The turtle might not be what it used to, but it's still pretty solid as an OoS option against laggy stuff (which is like 80% of Zelda), and he now has pretty solid combos from d-throw too. The ridic amounts of windboxes he has - on uair (which I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to push upwards even on airdodges), up-B and d-tilt- also help him keeping Zelda in the air, where she's nearly a sitting duck against him. A good G&W will try to manipulate your landing as best as he can, and that's what Zelda does worst. An option would be trying to go for a teleport cancel, but if he manages to get a windbox on you while you're FWing that's it. A baited airdodge can lead to a helmet head too, which will kill Zelda very early.
Off-stage, I'd say neither can do much against the other. G&W probably has slightly more options to mess with Zelda's recovery because of his windboxes, but there's not much he can do if she recovers low. Likewise, it's REALLY hard to spike him or gimp him because of the massive S-armor on his up-B, so it's relatively pointless to chase him out.
Like with most MUs vs lightweights, Zelda's only real advantage is that she can kill him very early if G&W isn't patient after racking damage up. The neutral game between both characters is gonna be slow and full of empty approaches because Zelda can't throw Din's out and G&W would be stupid to try and use Chef. The only mid-range option is Phantom spacing, but it's not really that hard to get around while grounded. Also, G&W has better empty-approach options than Zelda because he's not as easily telegraphed as she is, and he has much better aerial mobility, both horizontally and vertically.
Zylach
Smash Ace
Zelda's customs are still being experimented with. We have a thread dedicated to her customs that you'll probably wanna check out. Personally, I use default Nayru's and FW (Though I've been experimenting with using Farore's Squall that you mentioned because of its frame 1 windbox for combo breaking). I switch Din's fire with Din's blaze, the one you mentioned, because of its zoning properties and because I can act a moment before the explosion allowing me to use it as more of a setup rather than just a terrible projectile. It's really good for keeping opponents from getting back to the ledge safely as well. I also use phantom breaker not for breaking shields but for the fact that it travels quite a distance even when its not charged at all which gives Zelda a mid-range projectile (Which I think is the most useful custom for Zelda in MU's like Link since we are outspaced without this custom). Zelda typically relies on outspacing opponents but doesn't have the longest spacing in the game which means she doesn't have great tools against those that outspace her other than just being smart.
And, on a side note, Wisconsin is a terrible place to be a competitive smasher. It's a deadzone for tourneys besides college campus' (There's a smash club here at Madison that holds bi-weeklies thankfully) and Milwaukee. I'm gonna be looking at going to Chicago tourneys when I graduate in a few months.
Suicidal_Donuts
Smash Ace
Everyone's already said what I was going to. Link's jab can beat out most of our quick attacks making it a bit difficult to get the advantage in close range. At mid-long range Zelda should be able to punish his laggy projectiles by hiding behind a Phantom and using her other specials. His whiffed attacks are very easy to punish but it's much easier for him to KO us no matter what.
I haven't fought many good Links, but that's just what I've noticed from the few decent ones I've seen. Because of that I'm not going to guess the exact ratio but I'd say it's around even. Good reads are key, and Link is very predictable.
I haven't fought many good Links, but that's just what I've noticed from the few decent ones I've seen. Because of that I'm not going to guess the exact ratio but I'd say it's around even. Good reads are key, and Link is very predictable.
PUK
Smash Ace
Lol i believe it's in Zelda advantage.
Most of his kill need hard read or set up because of the small but not ignorable start up lag. But with Zelda tool most set up can't be used. And hard read is a dangerous thing we can take advantage of.
So if Zelda doesn't screw she's fine.
Also while he can kill early, he will need to trade at his disadvantage to rack up damages puting himself in a bad position. And his recovery is bad so a gimp is possible. We can juggle too, as our up air is disjointed.
I say 65 35 in zelda's favor
Most of his kill need hard read or set up because of the small but not ignorable start up lag. But with Zelda tool most set up can't be used. And hard read is a dangerous thing we can take advantage of.
So if Zelda doesn't screw she's fine.
Also while he can kill early, he will need to trade at his disadvantage to rack up damages puting himself in a bad position. And his recovery is bad so a gimp is possible. We can juggle too, as our up air is disjointed.
I say 65 35 in zelda's favor
Seki_
Smash Cadet
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
The Neutral B that I mentioned I used reflects projectiles and turns people around, wouldn't that generally be helpful for edge guarding and several other uses? Or am I missing something?
Actually Idk if it actually does reflect projectiles, I thought it was implied in some way.
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Zylach
Smash Ace
Sounds like you're using Nayru's rejection which does reflect projectiles. The reason I don't use that one is because it does slightly less damage than default Nayru's and also has a much less range to it. It is a useful edgeguarding tool, I agree, though not in every MU. Some people have claimed that the turnaround on characters gives Zelda a good opportunity for grabs which I've found to be iffy because characters can just simply roll away or spotdodge immediately after being turned around, especially faster characters like Sheik. A good example is Link actually because I both have their uses against him. While they are both projectiles, the added range on Love can allow us to hit Link even when he's spacing relatively well though, if he's trying to hit you through Nayru's Love, it'll usually end in a trade where you take a bunch of damage and he takes 1%. Rejection might be more useful in this MU especially because of Link's average recovery which can be gimped (again, if he decides against using hookshot) and turning him around in the middle of something like his fsmash or jab combo can net Zelda big punishes on him.
Zelda's customs for Nayru's and Farore's are mostly situational so tailoring your customs, and therefore, your play style to the MU is important. As a Zelda player, you should be adaptive so learning all the customs and where they are useful is a good idea because using the wrong custom in a situation could cost you the match.
Seki_
Smash Cadet
So on the topic of Link, I feel like he can actually beat Zelda in aerial game, mostly because of one thing we overlooked. Link has a Zair, which messes with Zelda's spacing of sweet spots. Rethinking it with that in mind I'm putting this at a 65-35 for Link. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
PUK
Smash Ace
Zair is so unsafe, it's the only aerial without AC or little landlag (except Dair) and the recovery is big, combined with link's falling speed we can bait it and punish hard. And often a link will toss a bomb first.
Finally zair can't be reversed, and so it's always forward.
Finally zair can't be reversed, and so it's always forward.
Oh! Thanks @
JigglyZelda003
for messaging the Links. I kept forgetting... >_< also, the final tally for the Little Mac MU is 35:65 in his favor.
On the subject of Link, I don't see how it could be too bad. Projectiles were pretty much universally nerfed in SSB4. Even though his weren't really, they were already pretty garbage in Brawl. I will say at long range his arrows definitely keep us from getting out Din's Fire, (Unless we got a phantom out.) but why would we be using Din's there? lol.
His leg aerials have surprisingly low landing lag, and his NAir can be a pain against Dthrow followups if we're not on point. His Jab is basically longer range than half of Zelda's ground game, and hnngg. His smashes also have really good range and power, but if you manage to block them and they aren't perfectly spaced, you can slip in a grab or dash attack. His tilts are still similarly slow, but still slightly harder to punish.
His grab is garbage though and none of his throws really present much reward, even at trying to get us off-stage. At least we've got a better grab than our opponent this time!
Zelda really likes it when link is off-stage; his recovery is better than it used to be, but still short/limited enough that he can be gimped by a well placed DAir. DAiring him out of ledge tethering is possible! Be careful as well when trying to DAir vs his up B, right above/slightly behind him is rather vulnerable, but his sword covers above in front of him, meaning you'd need to go at him with DAir from almost directly above him. Also lol rare Phantom pushy shenanigans to keep in mind.
He's heavier, so the FW elevator KOs will come in a little later, so it's nice that we can make him more uncomfortable with gimps than other characters. We're (too) light so basically getting touched by half his moves after a certain percent means rip.
I myself have never really found this to be a bad MU, and I'll put my score at 5:5.
JigglyZelda003
for messaging the Links. I kept forgetting... >_< also, the final tally for the Little Mac MU is 35:65 in his favor.On the subject of Link, I don't see how it could be too bad. Projectiles were pretty much universally nerfed in SSB4. Even though his weren't really, they were already pretty garbage in Brawl. I will say at long range his arrows definitely keep us from getting out Din's Fire, (Unless we got a phantom out.) but why would we be using Din's there? lol.
His leg aerials have surprisingly low landing lag, and his NAir can be a pain against Dthrow followups if we're not on point. His Jab is basically longer range than half of Zelda's ground game, and hnngg. His smashes also have really good range and power, but if you manage to block them and they aren't perfectly spaced, you can slip in a grab or dash attack. His tilts are still similarly slow, but still slightly harder to punish.
His grab is garbage though and none of his throws really present much reward, even at trying to get us off-stage. At least we've got a better grab than our opponent this time!
Zelda really likes it when link is off-stage; his recovery is better than it used to be, but still short/limited enough that he can be gimped by a well placed DAir. DAiring him out of ledge tethering is possible! Be careful as well when trying to DAir vs his up B, right above/slightly behind him is rather vulnerable, but his sword covers above in front of him, meaning you'd need to go at him with DAir from almost directly above him. Also lol rare Phantom pushy shenanigans to keep in mind.
He's heavier, so the FW elevator KOs will come in a little later, so it's nice that we can make him more uncomfortable with gimps than other characters. We're (too) light so basically getting touched by half his moves after a certain percent means rip.
I myself have never really found this to be a bad MU, and I'll put my score at 5:5.
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Zylach
Smash Ace
Just yesterday, I faced one of the best Link's I've seen in doubles sets and, like doubles sets often do, it was basically two 1v1's on opposite sides of the stage for 50% of the time. Facing that Link, it's only reinforced my opinion that this MU is 5:5. He's definitely got the range on us but so many of his attacks are punishable that I didn't feel like I was at a disadvantage against him so long as I played patiently. Moreover, as soon as I got him off the stage, dair was his doom. I even killed him offstage with Nayru's Love. Zelda definitely annihilates him offstage. My partner and I won all those sets except one and I'm fairly certain neither of my opponents had Zelda MU experience which is why I still say it's 5:5 instead of in Zelda's favor. In case anyone is curious, my teammate was a Robin and that Link's teammate was a Pikachu that I 1v1'd later and he beat me most games after he got a sense of how I was playing.
This also reinforces my opinion that Zelda is wildly better in doubles. Easily mid-tier. Zelda just needs a friend.
This also reinforces my opinion that Zelda is wildly better in doubles. Easily mid-tier. Zelda just needs a friend.
Seki_
Smash Cadet
Zelda definitely gets some MU advantage from not many people knowing what she does. I also feel like Link gets a bit of a disadvantage by his passive shield not stopping Din's Fire. That said there's not a ton of really skilled Links to test this MU with(?) I think a smart Link who knows what can and can't be punished definitely has a leg up on Zelda, but with how little experience most people have against Zelda MUs this could be fairly close. Refining my guesstimate to 45-55 for Link
Gay Ginger
Make Smash Bros. Gay Again
I'm pretty sure his passive shield does stop Din's Fire, as long as it explodes in front of him. However, it is true that if Din's explodes on his body or behind him, it can get past the shield. Though Din's Fire is so bad, it doesn't really matter because we're rarely ever going to hit it to begin with. However -- Link's recovery still isn't great, so Din's Fire can be used for some off-stage KOs. It's usually better to try to D-air or go for a LK off-stage, but depending on our position and his Din's can be somewhat useful -- don't rule it out completely!
Sorry, there's absolutely no way this is 65:35 in Zelda's favor.
Our kills need hard reads too, and unlike him, we don't really have any guaranteed KO set-ups at all.
Between projectiles and his superior range and power on the ground and fast moves in the air disrupting our strings, Zelda has a bit of a hard time matching him on stage. However, what saves Zelda is that she can take advantage of his bad recovery rather well and even up the score.
It's probably somewhere around even in my opinion (it's either 50:50 or maybe 45:55 in Link's favor, I'm not sure), for reasons others have already covered rather well.
This is not a bad match-up all things considered.
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ChickenWing13
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,237
- NNID
- Frosty93
This MU is nothing compared to Toon Link. Though I'll save that until the time comes.
As for the current discussion I'd say the match-up is even if not slightly in Zelda's favor. Well, from my experience anyway.
As for the current discussion I'd say the match-up is even if not slightly in Zelda's favor. Well, from my experience anyway.
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
When can we talk about another character?
I vote Fox.
I vote Fox.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
We're going in to order of the roster selection
Ok so I played a good link. It's hard to approach but once we get near him there's nothing he can do. He'll go for dsmash, grab, or jab. I say it's 60:40 Zelda
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
Agreed, he can't really approach, his projectiles give us a free FW if we're fast enough, it's not like his Kill-moves are the most reliable.
Generally when I fight Link players online, they are sometimes bad, but mostly very annoying.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so since this see is the ditto matchup and we already know Zelda vs Zelda is 40:60 Zelda I think this week will be an open discussion week. We can openly discuss other characters amongst ourselves because I know there are many characters we haven't discussed yet and many request. We can also discuss any complaints about Zelda this week lol
lol nuuu, don't give then this.
Also, Zorldo Jeopardy?
What is, No Winning MUs?
Also yes please can the OP actually say 4:6 Zelda? Plz?
I'll get to what I was actually supposed to be doing here and call the Zeldas from their boards for discussion I MEAN tallying up the Link scores. *drumroll*
The final Link tally was 5:5!
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JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
lol why not I was going to complain how much I hate "statue Zelda" players. :v
besides we can also talk about the good, like how much a cross over Fair kill from Zelda is a mad hype boost lol.
google Zorldo jeperdy princess, you'll see it lol
besides we can also talk about the good, like how much a cross over Fair kill from Zelda is a mad hype boost lol.
google Zorldo jeperdy princess, you'll see it lol
Macchiato
Smash Hero
Neutral
We don't need to approach, Gordos are really bad and are laggy. We can FW him when he attempts to throw a Gordo. His best approach is Nair or dash grab which are easily stopped by zelda. He is easy to combo and a grab can be set up with a jab or Dtilt which are hard to punish. His grab set up is nair or jab. Nair isn't good because it is really predictable. His only real advantage is range. His moves are still very laggy and punishable except Fsmash. His Dtilt is great for stopping punishes and is very fast. Nair OOS is his main option. We can lightning kick oos which kill fast and are easy to land on him. If he lands a dthrow at mid percent, he will use Uair which is practically unchallengeable. Another good thing is that phantom stops Gordos but FW is a better option
Kills
Zelda wins because it's easier for her to land hers. Her Elevator is very important because all his moves are laggy and can be punished. Lightning kicks also kill him early. Yes DeDeDe has more kill power but all of his kill moves are predictable and very laggy. His best option is Dthrow to uair which is DIable. Fsmash is the slowest thing ever. Dsmash is decent. Usmash is slow. This is one of the match ups where Zelda will be living a long time.
Recovering
We win because FW is hard to edgeguard. It's unedgeguardable practically. DeDeDes recovery's super armor is gone when he's near the ledge so dtilt works. Here is when we can take advantage of him.
Customs
Flare is the best one because it's fast and can punish him far away and also easy to hit him because he's huge. Any of the phantoms work. This is a Match up where Wind is better than Squall and also Love is always the best.
DeDeDe has variations of Gordos and they're still bad. Taste test is great but it's very situational. Jet hammer, does any DeDeDe even use this?
Stages
Any stage that lets Zelda live long is good. Kongo Jungle imo is a great stage for her.
Default Score
60-40 Zelda
Custom Score
62-38 Zelda
PUK
Smash Ace
62-38: that's unusual precision!
About Zelda ditto i find it boring: it's hard to punish roll, din's, everything actually and i don't know why. Usually i need to fish to land a kill move, don't like that.
Zelda vs rob: funny MU for Zelda, not for rob. Big floaty, reliance on projectiles, some laggy punishable move, and awful recovery in this MU, i say 65 35 Zelda, and 55 45 custom on (more threatening projectile, harder to gimp recovery)
About Zelda ditto i find it boring: it's hard to punish roll, din's, everything actually and i don't know why. Usually i need to fish to land a kill move, don't like that.
Zelda vs rob: funny MU for Zelda, not for rob. Big floaty, reliance on projectiles, some laggy punishable move, and awful recovery in this MU, i say 65 35 Zelda, and 55 45 custom on (more threatening projectile, harder to gimp recovery)
Zylach
Smash Ace
I'm not really interested in talking about other MU's since I know we'll get to all of them in time. The Zelda v Zelda MU is an awkward mess of two people trying to read each other's mistakes which ends in two people spamming safe moves like dtilt, ftilt, and jab all day not being able to punish each other and getting tiny bits of percent off in the process without doing anything substantial until a random Lkick or fsmash closes out a stock. So awkward.
Also, I'm fairly certain there is already a thread about discussing complaints about Zelda (we're so optimistic in the Zelda boards that we've had a thread like this ever since the game came out). In all honesty, my only serious problem with Zelda right now is that FW follows ledges in a weird manner. I just played a match on Gaur Plains Omega and I almost always follow the bottom of the stage the opposite direction from the ledge when I use FW diagonally to recover. I have to limit myself to recovering completely vertically on that stage because Zelda follows the underside the wrong direction. Not to mention, I can't always tell where the flat section of the underside of a stage is so teleporting straight up thinking I'll follow the underside to the ledge just sends me off horizontally into the abyss. I swear, this mechanic is so useful at times but so abusive at times as well. This is a consistent pain of mine on Battlefield where, if I angle FW at a 45 degree angle to reach the ledge, I'll instead go under the stage. I have to angle it at something like 60-70 degrees which is ridiculously awkward on any controller.
Rant over.
Also, I'm fairly certain there is already a thread about discussing complaints about Zelda (we're so optimistic in the Zelda boards that we've had a thread like this ever since the game came out). In all honesty, my only serious problem with Zelda right now is that FW follows ledges in a weird manner. I just played a match on Gaur Plains Omega and I almost always follow the bottom of the stage the opposite direction from the ledge when I use FW diagonally to recover. I have to limit myself to recovering completely vertically on that stage because Zelda follows the underside the wrong direction. Not to mention, I can't always tell where the flat section of the underside of a stage is so teleporting straight up thinking I'll follow the underside to the ledge just sends me off horizontally into the abyss. I swear, this mechanic is so useful at times but so abusive at times as well. This is a consistent pain of mine on Battlefield where, if I angle FW at a 45 degree angle to reach the ledge, I'll instead go under the stage. I have to angle it at something like 60-70 degrees which is ridiculously awkward on any controller.
Rant over.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
but the new faroes lets us climb walls which really makes her recovery great now. Sure it derps out on us sometimes, but its not too often usually.
can anybody help me with Pikachu? I hate him so much lol
can anybody help me with Pikachu? I hate him so much lol
Zylach
Smash Ace
I agree that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages with new FW. I say now and I will always say that Zelda has the best recovery in the game. I just hate when it derps out like that because it seems like a handicap to Zelda having such a good recovery that sometimes you'll just lose a stock because the mechanics are wonky.
I've actually been facing some really good Pikachus lately and have had a lot of trouble against them. The really good thing about this MU for us is that Pikachu does have some trouble killing. Fsmash, usmash, and thunder are his only real tools for killing people at reasonable percents whereas half of our arsenal can kill him at the same percents he'll be killing us and, let's face it, we'll not be getting a lot of early kills on Pika because we can't punish him. I get so many kills with dair spikes and this is impossible against Pika since his recovery is so amazing. Furthermore, he has no landing lag on fair or uair so count those out. All of his tilts are super fast and so is his usmash so getting those punishes we so desperately need for kills just won't happen consistently. I've tried spacing him out with fsmash but he can punish the endlag on it really quickly with a dashing usmash. Dtilt is the only thing we have that is a reliable spacing tool against him that actually hits him because jab, ftilt, and grab can miss often only because he is short.
Zelda does fair decently against him in the air though since uair and nair are disjointed whereas Pika has maybe fair to combat this. Just don't let him get under you because he can uair us for days. Nayru's is really helpful here because Pika sticks his hurtbox out on so many of his safe moves. The Pika I face often has called Nayru's a combo breaker on several occasions. He's gotten into the habit of baiting it though which is the one true weakness of Nayru's. Don't forget that it reflects thunder as well though we can't get it off in time to reflect it off of an uthrow. ALWAYS DI UTHROW. Nayru's will only work to reflect thunder after an uthrow from maybe 0-50%. After that, there's too much hitstun.
I guess, as always, look to bait airdodges. This is where Zelda shines. If Pika airdodges to the ground, he can say goodbye to his stock as we elevator/fair/bair/fsmash/dair-->uair/dtilt-->anything his little red cheeks off.
tl'dr: This is one of those MU's that Zelda has to be remarkably patient with because Pikachu can't make as many mistakes as other characters (lagless moves are the worst). I have yet to find a reliable strat against Pikachu other than being smart and precise.
I've actually been facing some really good Pikachus lately and have had a lot of trouble against them. The really good thing about this MU for us is that Pikachu does have some trouble killing. Fsmash, usmash, and thunder are his only real tools for killing people at reasonable percents whereas half of our arsenal can kill him at the same percents he'll be killing us and, let's face it, we'll not be getting a lot of early kills on Pika because we can't punish him. I get so many kills with dair spikes and this is impossible against Pika since his recovery is so amazing. Furthermore, he has no landing lag on fair or uair so count those out. All of his tilts are super fast and so is his usmash so getting those punishes we so desperately need for kills just won't happen consistently. I've tried spacing him out with fsmash but he can punish the endlag on it really quickly with a dashing usmash. Dtilt is the only thing we have that is a reliable spacing tool against him that actually hits him because jab, ftilt, and grab can miss often only because he is short.
Zelda does fair decently against him in the air though since uair and nair are disjointed whereas Pika has maybe fair to combat this. Just don't let him get under you because he can uair us for days. Nayru's is really helpful here because Pika sticks his hurtbox out on so many of his safe moves. The Pika I face often has called Nayru's a combo breaker on several occasions. He's gotten into the habit of baiting it though which is the one true weakness of Nayru's. Don't forget that it reflects thunder as well though we can't get it off in time to reflect it off of an uthrow. ALWAYS DI UTHROW. Nayru's will only work to reflect thunder after an uthrow from maybe 0-50%. After that, there's too much hitstun.
I guess, as always, look to bait airdodges. This is where Zelda shines. If Pika airdodges to the ground, he can say goodbye to his stock as we elevator/fair/bair/fsmash/dair-->uair/dtilt-->anything his little red cheeks off.
tl'dr: This is one of those MU's that Zelda has to be remarkably patient with because Pikachu can't make as many mistakes as other characters (lagless moves are the worst). I have yet to find a reliable strat against Pikachu other than being smart and precise.
Gay Ginger
Make Smash Bros. Gay Again
Don't forget that all of our kill moves are laggy and punishable as well. But unlike Dedede who has the weight to survive, Zelda is so light and floaty that making a mistake will often be worse for us.
Kills
Zelda wins because it's easier for her to land hers. Her Elevator is very important because all his moves are laggy and can be punished. Lightning kicks also kill him early. Yes DeDeDe has more kill power but all of his kill moves are predictable and very laggy. His best option is Dthrow to uair which is DIable. Fsmash is the slowest thing ever. Dsmash is decent. Usmash is slow. This is one of the match ups where Zelda will be living a long time.
Also, his moves aren't that punishable if spaced well. They're definitely safer than ours on shield. If we shield his smashes or he whiffs at max range, it's unlikely we'll be landing elevators. If he tries a down smash at point-blank range, however, we can easily get an elevator.
His up-air lasts a while so it can catch us after an air dodge, and Zelda has trouble landing on stage from the air. He can also kill us with his forward and back airs if we're near the ledge.
We have better kill options, but his are generally safer than ours and he is a lot heavier than us. It kind of even outs.
I actually think Dedede edgeguards us better to be honest. His super armor means that we can't really gimp him with our down-air, which takes away a lot of Zelda's off-stage game.
While Dedede can't really stop us from getting to the ledge, he has better options preventing us from safely getting up from it. If he times his gordo right, we can't get up from the ledge without getting hit by it, and if we try to stay on the ledge to avoid it, we can lose our invincibility and get hit anyway. His down-smash is great at hitting us if we attempt to roll up from the ledge; the gordo can block us from jumping up; and if we try to get up normally and shield the gordo, he can grab us.
It can be really frustrating getting back on stage against Dededes who have good control over the gordo.
I'm not gonna give a score now cause I'm not sure where exactly this match-up falls, but I know that it isn't 60:40 Zelda.
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
Actually all his kill moves aren't safe at all. They're as punishable as ours. Also we can easily DI out of his dthrow. He'll be going for many dsmashes at kill percent which is his most reliable kill move. A shield is all we need before we elevator.
Dtilt still messed him up bad at the ledge. Actually his gordos aren't a problem when. We get back to the ledge. A Sourspot kick will send them back to him and we can just wait at the ledge. Also it's really impractical to time it perfectly. Even a get up Attack sends it back. It's not near a threat.
I think it's 60-40 AT WORST
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
DDD only has super armor going up and coming down initially. At the apex of his UpB and coming down after a time he has no super armor so it is possible to hit him out of it, we can even Uair him at the apex if he's being a bum and trying to upB back on stage. We can ledge jump nayrus for Gordo safety as well.
I don't think Zelda has anything notable over DDD though so I feel its pretty even, he got a range Nerf and with how easy it is to send Gordo away he's still obnoxious to fight but not hard.
I don't think Zelda has anything notable over DDD though so I feel its pretty even, he got a range Nerf and with how easy it is to send Gordo away he's still obnoxious to fight but not hard.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
Could Squall perhaps mess up his recovery, since as good as it is it needs to be controlled precisely?
On the other hand with customs, he gets Heavy Skull Bash which can help his KOing problems,
and Thunder Wave can set up some things with paralysis (but it's half as strong with half the range).
So it's basically a toss-up between Wind for punishing whiffed Bashes (Heavy is even more punishable
than default) and poor Thunder Jolt/Wave usage, or Squall for juggle breaking and making Pika miss
his Quick Attack recoveries. No matter what though, you'll probably want Din's Blaze and Phantom Strike
to discourage Pika from being reckless.
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
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Wait, if I am correct, you said before that the wind hitbox for Farores squall comes out on frame 1? So basically when your being combed it's good for pushing opponents, but you will still get hit. If that's how it works it definatly seems cool, it just kinda loses its
Kill potential.
It does travel a farther distance, but in a way it kind of leaves a visible path of which direction your going to go.
Though that "visible path" does push opponents, and if they are hit when you reappear, they get launche dup.
Unfortunately I haven't really found any combos you could use off of this.
Zylach
Smash Ace
Squall could be a better choice in this MU since Pika is very combo-heavy and naturally wants to rush us down as soon as he can get in meaning the combo breaking potential of squall helps us defensively. Offensively, you would still have to know where he's going with quick attack in order to use Squall to push him around and mess up his recovery so I don't think it's that useful in that regard. I'm not even that concerned about heavy skull bash because we have to be so close to him in order to die at low percents which requires the hardest of reads on his part or a massive mistake on ours. He should be afraid to pick HSB against a Zelda seeing as, if he misses, we can punish him no matter how far he goes with FW. If we pick squall, we might be able to Squallator him during that endlag though I haven't tested this. Thunder wave is problematic but doesn't have the range of default thunder jolt so that's one thing customs Pikachu loses. No matter what we do though, Pikachu is a bad MU for us and will always be annoying to face.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
When I talked about Squall making Pikachu miss the edge, I didn't really mean gimping, just miss the snap
by blowing him upwards. Since you don't need to strike Pikachu directly it mostly becomes a matter of timing
and aiming Squall right (though a good Pikachu could do a good job of altering this timing, and if he goes high he could probably just go through Zelda). Whether making him miss the snap could lead to an opportunity remains to be seen.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
You probably won't get an elevator off due to him having super low lag on his moves so squall is the go-to move
S.F.L.R_9
Smash Master
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However, isn't Pikachu notorious for having some difficulty landing his kill moves? Fsmash has end lag, usmash has end lag, as does Thunder. I'm thinking we could use FW to punish these, but maybe we'd need to play actual matches against a good Pika to see whether Wind or Squall is better
Macchiato
Smash Hero
Yes but his aerial move landings has a hitbox. Fsmash is safe, Usmash... I'm not sure. Thunder, a good pikachu won't use it recklessly.