It seems even to me for reasons stated above.
@
EnGarde
Hep us.
Hi! I only generally check Smashboards like once a week, lol. I think a lot of us Pit mains hang out more on skype than here, though I also tend to hang out with the Marcina mains a lot lol. So sorry if I'm a bit late to the party.
I'll speak specifically from a Pit main's perspective; most but not all things will apply to Dark Pit. My Zelda experience is a bit shaky, since it's been a while since I've last played Macchiato (probably the best Zelda I've played so far). I'm also still a very new smasher myself, so I'm still working on my fundamentals; therefore, take my words with a grain of salt.
In neutral, if you're far away from me, I'd probably throw out a jump arrow or 2 to see how you respond, since Zelda doesn't have the movement speed to close the distance quickly. When we use arrows in the air, we have a full 16 frames less endlag (ty Aerodrome for the frame data lol), and the trajectory is such that if you use your reflector, they'll reflect harmlessly up at an angle that's unlikely to hit me. Therefore, it is possible to make Zelda's approach difficult. You could try to force me to approach with Din's fire, but tbh, I don't know if that has enough shield pressure to make me sweat, and I can see it coming a mile off, especially once I figure out the timing for it. Using phantom in this MU is not a very good idea, since I can pretty easily meet that with my orbitars, but also, it is one of the few projectiles that is reflected usefully by my side b, upperdash.
Speaking of, I can see a bit of misinfo on Pit's upperdash and orbitars in previous posts. Upperdash has full on super armor, but it is only active for a specific number of frames, so you can hit us out of it before the super armor activates, or after (and sometimes us Pit mains aren't very careful with spacing our side b's properly to make optimal use of that super armor; I'll admit to that myself lol). As for orbitars, if we're using the default (we should be using either default or amplifying in this MU IMO; my personal preference is default always because default has windboxes where amplifying does not), we are invulnerable while the default orbitars are up. Amplifying orbitars break more easily on impact, which is useful because it results in less endlag, but without windboxes it's even easier to punish than default (and default is pretty easy to punish to start with), and they can't be used for default's other use, landing mixup. Yes, we can use the invulnerability and wind boxes to mess up potential juggle attempts, but due to the amount of commitment on that option, it is a mixup ONLY.
Once we're in mid range, I'm not looking to make the first move, but to see how you will respond. If you throw out moves incautiously away from me, I'll try to go for dash grabs, but if I don't think I'll get there in time, I might try to meet you with a dash attack, which is disjoint and comes out very quickly. Dash attack can set up for a fair at certain %'s, especially if you don't DI. Pretty sure spaced dash attack cleanly interrupts your reflector, though more testing is needed to confirm. I also have a lot of disjointed tilts that I can use to space you out, such as ftilt (which actually has a bit more range than Marth's ftilt), and dtilt. Dtilt can also set up for a fair at certain percents, and tipper ftilt from Pit (NOT Dark Pit) has a lot of extra knockback, and can kill near the edge at high percents.
If you try to approach me incautiously with your attacks (both grounded and aerial), especially if you hit my shield with your attacks, chances are pretty likely you're going to get shield-grabbed, since Pit's all around grab range is pretty good. I dunno about other Pit mains, but that's something that I in particular have really gotten good at. We also have jabs for slightly spaced CQC, which can cover spot dodges, as well as a pivot grab that, if you're standing directly in front of me and I do an immediate pivot grab AWAY from you, you'll still get grabbed (so, good for spacing and option coverage). I've been surprised by just what I've been able to grab people out of with that lol.
If you're also playing the patient game, I'd probably start trying to headshot you with a spaced sh fair, since Zelda is tall enough for it, and since I know you guys will want to hit me with your own sh aerials. If you guys try to play crouching games, I can RAR it and try to hit you with bair, which hits at a lower height than fair, though with a bit more risk involved. I can also use dash to shield as an approach to force out a twitch response, which is a great option with Pit's short, fast dash and low traction, as I can slide while in shield into your attack and punish with a grab.
Once I get the grab, it's dthrow to juggles galore. I personally love going for uairs most of all, because it's possible to string 2 or more of them together at lowish percents using my double jumps. I'd recommend not challenging Pit's uair, as it's very disjoint. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that trades with it is Link's dair, and that's only sometimes. All uairs after the first are a setup only (not a true combo), and can be escaped dependent on the reading / DI skill of the players. I have a few other mixup options during these percents that I can go for instead, including fthrow or bthrow > jab lock setups and fair chaingrabs (which are probably just a gimmick, but ehh, I'm still practicing them lol), so there's that, too.
Also, once you're offstage, be careful where you choose to use your up+b. If you like to use it just offstage, or just under the lip of the stage, those are easy positions for me to edgeguard you from. I've been working on using walk-off nair, mostly for Sheiks, but I think it might apply to you guys as well. Otherwise, I'd probably just lob arrows at you, because your recovery is a bit to risky for me to want to challenge directly.
As for Pit in the state of disadvantage, I don't know what are all of your tools for juggling and comboing, but I've found DI up and away, plus multiple jumps, helps me escape a lot. If I'm worried about landing (which can be an issue with Pit), I'll just head for offstage and the ledge, and since I have multiple jumps, I'll probaby make it. We have multiple options on recovery, and can take our sweet time when offstage, so it can make timing when to use your edgeguard option difficult. Also, as arrows have less endlag in the air, I can lob multiple arrows at you while I'm recovering as a deterrent (this only works for Pit, as Dark Pit's arrows don't have enough curve to be useful in general). This is when you'll want to use your reflector, even though you're unlikely to hit me with my own arrow: the thing that limits my ablity to shoot more arrows in the air isn't the endlag, but rather that I can only have 1 arrow on the field at a time. If you reflect it, I have to wait until the reflected arrow is gone before I can send another one. If I hit you/your shield, or drive the arrow into the ground, I can launch another one almost immediately. Charged arrows also have an extra bit of knockback, so if you get hit with one while I'm recovering, that greatly eases recovery for me. There are multiple useful spacings for recovery using both upperdash as well our up+b, so we have a lot of mixup options there, and it can be kinda difficult to predict. Not to say it's impossible to edgeguard Pit, just...not as easy as it might first appear.
The main weaknesses that Pit has in this MU is that we'll probably find it hard to close out your stocks, as edgeguarding you is risky. We have a high percent kill throw, fthrow, though sometimes we can fudge the numbers with fthrow into charged arrow hitting you in/near the bubble. Otherwise, our safest kill option is sweet spot bair, though that too is a mid/high percent kill move. Our other kill moves--fsmash, upsmash, grounded upperdash---are also high percent-ish, and require a read to land. Lastly, we have tipper ftilt (Pit only, not Dark Pit), but that's a bit tricky to land in general.
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tl;dr: Pit is awesome. :D We like to use arrows sometimes, we generally prefer to punish with grabs, but have other punishing / reactive tools too, we like to juggle people out of grabs, and can kill with fthrow near the ledge. We have trouble edgeguarding you, we have multiple jumps and recovery mixup options that can make edgeguarding us a bit problematic. We'll probably have trouble ending your stocks, as most of our kill options require a read at kill %.
Hope this helps!
