Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Zolda]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLhJvyKposdKqDUHJ-adf2Xxnt_VWTMElM&v=FVfTpmCkQOM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...ElM&params=OAFIAVgC&v=ZjIcqSVNLAM&mode=NORMAL

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...ElM&params=OAFIAVgD&v=w0zJa92MdC4&mode=NORMAL

These are my replays of Zelda vs Ike. These were also right before the current patch, so things might be different since Ike did get some buffs.
Keep in mind that I'm not the best Zelda around but I still main her.

Also, sorry for the double posting. I'm kinda new here so I don't really know all the rules.

 

[Zylach]

I've posted a few vids of me in local Madison tourneys but not too much and nothing really recent either. My gameplay has improved greatly from those videos. Hopefully the new Youtube mechanic that's coming out soon will fix that problem.

As for Ike, I don't feel like this is a bad MU really. The worst thing about it is that he greatly outranges us. That's exactly what Zelda doesn't want to hear. Moreover, he's tricky to hit offstage with his side-B and aether combining to give him some good recovery mixups. That said, Zelda has her own tricks.

It's not difficult to punish Ike at all. Yeah, he has autocancelling aerials in nair and fair but his followups from those autocancels aren't crazy since he's fairly slow (Though that change to ftilt might make a difference. Again, haven't played enough of the patch to know). His fastest followup from autocancelled nair is jab I believe. You just have to know how long to shield and you can get a punish off. Furthermore, this is a MU where Din's flare is more helpful than ever as Ike has no projectile to answer with. Zelda does combo him better than he combos her (Never thought I'd hear myself say Zelda combos better than she gets combo'd ever). Granted, his combos are short but do a lot of damage and we die significantly earlier to his stuff than he dies to our stuff.

I think Ike's range is what really makes this MU sway to anyone's favor but it is still fairly even.

45:55

 

[PUK]

Purely even. Zelda kills slightly earlier most of the time, but Ike has better reward on reads. Ike can edgeguard zelda, which is rare, but we can punish him for that. He has e better combo and grab game, but is not really scary past 60%.
First thing is: Nair doesn't AC but has low endlag, Fair and Bair AC, and now i think Uair has low endlag as well.
Ike, to be safe, needs spacing, and his optimal spacing is not like zelda's one. He has way more mobility than us, and Din's fire is really bad in this MU unless he's under the stage (bc Quick draw can reach us before the end lag is over)
Nayru's love is really good here, and DA is godly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ok first how does he have a better grab and combo game then we do? We combo him much more and our grabs offer slightly better rewards.
Second, he doesnt have "way more mobility" because he is nearly just as slow.
Quick draw wont hit us if we use dins correctly, and I feel unlike against a majority of the cast, using it against Ike, if used correctly, wont be too bad.
Also he can only edge guard us mostly from our second jump, which we should secure and use at the right moment

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Both Zelda and Ike's grab and combos games are good...but in different ways. Zelda's combos tend to work at every percent and she has guaranteed kill combos, but they do less percent than Ike's. Ike can do a lot of damage at low to mid percents but at high percents he has trouble comboing, so overall I think Zelda's grab and combo game is better since it's more reliable and can kill

 

[Gay Ginger]

I've posted a few vids of me in local Madison tourneys but not too much and nothing really recent either. My gameplay has improved greatly from those videos. Hopefully the new Youtube mechanic that's coming out soon will fix that problem.

As for Ike, I don't feel like this is a bad MU really. The worst thing about it is that he greatly outranges us. That's exactly what Zelda doesn't want to hear. Moreover, he's tricky to hit offstage with his side-B and aether combining to give him some good recovery mixups. That said, Zelda has her own tricks.

It's not difficult to punish Ike at all. Yeah, he has autocancelling aerials in nair and fair but his followups from those autocancels aren't crazy since he's fairly slow (Though that change to ftilt might make a difference. Again, haven't played enough of the patch to know). His fastest followup from autocancelled nair is jab I believe. You just have to know how long to shield and you can get a punish off. Furthermore, this is a MU where Din's flare is more helpful than ever as Ike has no projectile to answer with. Zelda does combo him better than he combos her (Never thought I'd hear myself say Zelda combos better than she gets combo'd ever). Granted, his combos are short but do a lot of damage and we die significantly earlier to his stuff than he dies to our stuff.

I think Ike's range is what really makes this MU sway to anyone's favor but it is still fairly even.

45:55

I agree with this.

I haven't fought Ike post-patch either, but a faster f-tilt and more reliably linking jab (I think??) should help him more than what we got, pushing it closer to 45:55.

45:55

 

[Brinzy]

I agree with this.

I haven't fought Ike post-patch either, but a faster f-tilt and more reliably linking jab (I think??) should help him more than what we got, pushing it closer to 45:55.

45:55

The matchup was much harder in Brawl because Ike could grab the ledge during Zelda's recovery and force her to take damage or die flat out, and Zelda had not even a half-decent response to Ike's fair... and even then it was still a 6:4 in his favor. Ike does have solid customs, but they don't directly hamper Zelda's gameplay at all.

Meanwhile, on top of having a new move that is excellent for edgeguarding Ike's recovery, if customs are on you can very easily hit him with Din's Blaze on his Aether with some practice thanks to the delay he has at grabbing the ledge. Everything else is taken care of by Phantom. We still have Dsmash to force him to use a B move to recover at low %s. We did lose dtilt locking on him, and he still has a few fast options up close, but off stage has only gotten better for us in both ways.

Would place this matchup dead even. Ike got some faster options and lags less, but we also lag less and have an entirely new kill move. Can't tell you how many times I have gotten into a stalemate with an Ike and just Up B'd him trying to wall me out with fair.

 

[Zylach]

Facing and playing as Ike post patch, I feel like this MU is still fairly even with my previous score. Ike has gotten faster up close while retaining his great range. Furthermore, the change to his fair is a great quality of life change for him since it's easier for him to follow up from stuff like dtilt with fair now that it hits above him. That said, he's still very punishable and doesn't have perfect kill setups like *takes a deep breath* we Zelda mains do now!!! The fact that we can nair>elevator now helps us a ton with every single MU but it doesn't help our neutral game which is where Zelda loses out to Ike ever so slightly since he outranges us and his improved speed has only helped him in that respect. So, we got the kill setup that he doesn't have and he has the improved neutral that we don't have. Still 45:55 in his favor.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Facing and playing as Ike post patch, I feel like this MU is still fairly even with my previous score. Ike has gotten faster up close while retaining his great range. Furthermore, the change to his fair is a great quality of life change for him since it's easier for him to follow up from stuff like dtilt with fair now that it hits above him. That said, he's still very punishable and doesn't have perfect kill setups like *takes a deep breath* we Zelda mains do now!!! The fact that we can nair>elevator now helps us a ton with every single MU but it doesn't help our neutral game which is where Zelda loses out to Ike ever so slightly since he outranges us and his improved speed has only helped him in that respect. So, we got the kill setup that he doesn't have and he has the improved neutral that we don't have. Still 45:55 in his favor.

Sorry if you answered this let alone it not being relavent, but do you by any chance have recordings of your Zelda? maybe we could give tips or we could get some from you, that is if you dont mind

 

[Zylach]

Sorry if you answered this let alone it not being relavent, but do you by any chance have recordings of your Zelda? maybe we could give tips or we could get some from you, that is if you dont mind

I've got some early tournament footage of me from several months back at a local WI tourney. My strats from back then are a lot different compared to my strats now though so I wouldn't read too much into all of that. I have those posted in our Hyrule Duels video thread. Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card so I can't post videos easily. I guess I could upload some FG replays I have by recording them with my phone. I did that when I figured out the dtilt>SH FF nair>elevator string a few nights ago. Unfortunately again, recording FG doesn't do anyone justice since FG is a laggy piece of garbage that's only good for playing for fun. It's not even really good for experimenting since you can't be frame perfect with stuff. That said, if you want me to upload some Samsung Galaxy S5 quality videos of my FG matches, I can do that. Hopefully, the direct Youtube upload will make things a lot easier as soon as that comes out. I need to bring my setup to tourneys more often so I can save real matches offline against good players.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I've got some early tournament footage of me from several months back at a local WI tourney. My strats from back then are a lot different compared to my strats now though so I wouldn't read too much into all of that. I have those posted in our Hyrule Duels video thread. Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card so I can't post videos easily. I guess I could upload some FG replays I have by recording them with my phone. I did that when I figured out the dtilt>SH FF nair>elevator string a few nights ago. Unfortunately again, recording FG doesn't do anyone justice since FG is a laggy piece of garbage that's only good for playing for fun. It's not even really good for experimenting since you can't be frame perfect with stuff. That said, if you want me to upload some Samsung Galaxy S5 quality videos of my FG matches, I can do that. Hopefully, the direct Youtube upload will make things a lot easier as soon as that comes out. I need to bring my setup to tourneys more often so I can save real matches offline against good players.

Thats fine with me, I know FG sucks,but its all I have for now but at least its somewhat decent for practicing and knowing some things about characters.

 

[Macchiato]

Idk I feel like Zelda wins because of her ability to kill and edgeguard him easily. She also doesn't need to approach.

imo 60-40Zelda

 

[Brinzy]

Facing and playing as Ike post patch, I feel like this MU is still fairly even with my previous score. Ike has gotten faster up close while retaining his great range. Furthermore, the change to his fair is a great quality of life change for him since it's easier for him to follow up from stuff like dtilt with fair now that it hits above him. That said, he's still very punishable and doesn't have perfect kill setups like *takes a deep breath* we Zelda mains do now!!! The fact that we can nair>elevator now helps us a ton with every single MU but it doesn't help our neutral game which is where Zelda loses out to Ike ever so slightly since he outranges us and his improved speed has only helped him in that respect. So, we got the kill setup that he doesn't have and he has the improved neutral that we don't have. Still 45:55 in his favor.

I would like to argue something...

Ike's ftilt, while pretty good, wasn't really deciding this matchup before. His jab was reliable on Zelda as far as I can tell. The dash attack doing more damage and knockback, while also being good, doesn't make much of a difference in this matchup because getting DA'd by Ike as Zelda at a meaningful % gets you knocked off the stage anyway. I don't think the buffs Ike got make a huge difference here. They clearly make him a better character, but it doesn't change anything as far as I am concerned.

While our knockback increase on Usmash and reduced lag time (which Ike also got) are good, they aren't meaningful either. The nair change however, gives Zelda a significant tool she didn't have before, namely punishing Ike at a range where you cannot sweetspot a kick. Before you did a little damage and had to either get the last hit to be safe or be ready to shield or otherwise hope he fell into Dsmash area and wasn't reacting fast enough to jab or shield or even just jump away. Now that we have a confirmed setup on him, I really don't think he has a slight advantage.

Sure, the nair -> FW is still somewhat theorycraft territory, but I mostly mean the solid followups with nair in general now - most importantly, Ike can't act before Zelda after Zelda lands nair, giving her an actual good option in situations where fair/bair are unsafe or will definitely sourspot... and that's a lot of situations. I think cancelling nair on Ike (and many characters) will become a very big part of Zelda's game since she can now proactively do something against good opponents, albeit a small something.

I really think the matchup is dead even and only sways hard if there's a gimp or a hard read.

 

[Arrei]

The dash attack doing more damage and knockback, while also being good, doesn't make much of a difference in this matchup because getting DA'd by Ike as Zelda at a meaningful % gets you knocked off the stage anyway.

Just came here to mention, as I don't have enough experience facing good Zeldas to really contribute much else to the discussion, that getting dash attacked now at a meaningful percent won't necessarily just "get you knocked off the stage" - Ike's dash attack is actually capable of killing now. It starts killing training room Mario at 100% and becomes capable of killing from anywhere at about 140%, so you're going to want to watch what you commit to near the sides as your percent gets up there.

 

[san.]

Ike has uthrow to fair, Nair to fair, and weak Nair to bair or uair for kill combos depending on the position, and can trap into a plethora of other things. I don't know the MU, but Ike's throw and punish game is very dangerous.

Ike can combo off of Nair, dtilt, dthrow, and uthrow at most percents as well. Fair and bair combo into dash attack at mid percents. Ike's aerials demand a lot of respect and are very good at trapping. Dash attack can indeed kill at the edge at 100 without rage, 80 with rage. While ike has his ground game improved, I believe Zelda has quite a good arsenal on the ground?

Elevator is a serious wildcard, though. That's all I can say.

 

[Zylach]

I will say that Zelda might slightly beat Ike on the ground simply because she's a bit faster with her big disjoints like jab with 11 frames of startup and even fsmash with 16 frames of startup can outspeed some of Ike's moves. I dunno how fast Ike's ftilt comes out post patch but I believe Zelda's fsmash outsped that pre-patch. Don't quote me on that. Ike's dtilt is what really scares me since it's fast and leads to fair followups. While I'm on the topic of Ike's aerial game, I'll say that Ike's aerial game demolishes Zelda's. He outspaces her in all circumstances in the air. The good thing, though, is that Zelda can airdodge his aerials unlike characters like Sheik or Diddy where they'll whiff the aerial she airdodged then punish her airdodge with another aerial because screw you.

I will say that the Zelda changes have given her a significant boost to kill power and kill reliability. That said though, Zelda doesn't have the best time in neutral against Ike. That's where the MU really takes shape I feel because unless Zelda wins in neutral, she won't be able to get a kill in the first place. Yeah, Zelda can short hop over a dash attack or something and punish with a nair>elevator but that's a rare circumstance I suspect. I wanna say that this MU is in Zelda's favor because she has good kill setups now and can combo Ike for upwards of 30% if she lands her Lkicks but the neutral game is rough on her and with Ike's ability to space with low lag aerials, Zelda's gonna have a fairly tough time winning via punishes which is all she can really do. Plus, We die to Ike faster than he dies to us. There's no arguing that. We can't really gimp him because he's either flying right over our heads with quick draw or covering the ledge with aether, neither of which we can cover with a dair. We might be able to catch him with an uair during his aerial quick draw but that's very unlikely. Meanwhile, Zelda will always be going for the ledge when she recovers and Ike will be charging eruption if we're recovering low so if he hits us in that one frame of vulnerability, we're done. We don't have that luxury against him. Furthermore, don't ever try and snipe him with FW. Just don't. Counters hurt.

Again, I wanna say that this is in Zelda's favor or, at worst, even, but I've never faced a pro Ike before and I know that I can have trouble with them when they're not the best Ike's so I suspect a really good Ike player can prove to me that this is actually in Ike's favor. Not horribly but in his favor nevertheless. The only thing I can say is that customs may put the MU slightly in Zelda's favor only because we can force his approach and catch him from the air as he lands with a flare, something we can't do with din's fire.

Maybe it'd look more like this:
Default: 45:55
Customs:51:49

Does this seem right? I wish I could face a really good Ike but I've never seen one at any tourney.

 

[Arrei]

Ike's Ftilt pre-patch had 15 frames of startup, so it was faster than your Fsmash, but just barely. As of the patch, it's either 12 or 13 frames - there seems to have been some ambiguity there. But that's used more for punishing or reading for the kill than anything else as Ftilt doesn't really let us follow up with much. Dtilt's the fastest one in our arsenal at 7 frames followed by Utilt at 11 frames, which have considerably less range but it's still nothing to sneeze at, for Dtilt's combo ability and Utilt's kill power.

 

[Zylach]

Ike's Ftilt pre-patch had 15 frames of startup, so it was faster than your Fsmash, but just barely. As of the patch, it's either 12 or 13 frames - there seems to have been some ambiguity there. But that's used more for punishing or reading for the kill than anything else as Ftilt doesn't really let us follow up with much. Dtilt's the fastest one in our arsenal at 7 frames followed by Utilt at 11 frames, which have considerably less range but it's still nothing to sneeze at, for Dtilt's combo ability and Utilt's kill power.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. In that case, that's also bad for Zelda. The only thing she has that's faster than your dtilt is our dtilt at 5 frames of startup but it's got no disjoint and is shorter than your sword. Honestly, all Zelda has in neutral is patient shielding until Ike overcommits to a ftilt or jab combo. She can still punish his landing lag on his aerials but a smart Ike will be properly spacing these. What I would want to do against an Ike that is properly spacing his aerials is dash in and shield when I see him go in the air so I have an opening for a shield grab, dash attack, etc. I guess, with the changes to nair, this would now be one of our best options against him given those circumstances now as nair followups exist and it's even possible to FF nair>another nair if we hit with the last hitbox since Ike doesn't really have any great combo breaking moves besides counter when he's being juggled like that which is why I say she combos him quite well. He's no Luigi. That all begins, though, with her getting in in the first place which is difficult since she's not designed to do that.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ikes spaced dtilt is really frustrating. I believe our dtilt can clank with it but that's hard to try and set up that clank. it puts Zelda in a frustrating space where its hard to punish unless Ike wasn't spacing it because if its speed and reach and Zelda's only reaching option is a slow move or some ambiguous action lol.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I will say that Zelda might slightly beat Ike on the ground simply because she's a bit faster with her big disjoints like jab with 11 frames of startup and even fsmash with 16 frames of startup can outspeed some of Ike's moves. I dunno how fast Ike's ftilt comes out post patch but I believe Zelda's fsmash outsped that pre-patch. Don't quote me on that. Ike's dtilt is what really scares me since it's fast and leads to fair followups. While I'm on the topic of Ike's aerial game, I'll say that Ike's aerial game demolishes Zelda's. He outspaces her in all circumstances in the air. The good thing, though, is that Zelda can airdodge his aerials unlike characters like Sheik or Diddy where they'll whiff the aerial she airdodged then punish her airdodge with another aerial because screw you.

I will say that the Zelda changes have given her a significant boost to kill power and kill reliability. That said though, Zelda doesn't have the best time in neutral against Ike. That's where the MU really takes shape I feel because unless Zelda wins in neutral, she won't be able to get a kill in the first place. Yeah, Zelda can short hop over a dash attack or something and punish with a nair>elevator but that's a rare circumstance I suspect. I wanna say that this MU is in Zelda's favor because she has good kill setups now and can combo Ike for upwards of 30% if she lands her Lkicks but the neutral game is rough on her and with Ike's ability to space with low lag aerials, Zelda's gonna have a fairly tough time winning via punishes which is all she can really do. Plus, We die to Ike faster than he dies to us. There's no arguing that. We can't really gimp him because he's either flying right over our heads with quick draw or covering the ledge with aether, neither of which we can cover with a dair. We might be able to catch him with an uair during his aerial quick draw but that's very unlikely. Meanwhile, Zelda will always be going for the ledge when she recovers and Ike will be charging eruption if we're recovering low so if he hits us in that one frame of vulnerability, we're done. We don't have that luxury against him. Furthermore, don't ever try and snipe him with FW. Just don't. Counters hurt.

Again, I wanna say that this is in Zelda's favor or, at worst, even, but I've never faced a pro Ike before and I know that I can have trouble with them when they're not the best Ike's so I suspect a really good Ike player can prove to me that this is actually in Ike's favor. Not horribly but in his favor nevertheless. The only thing I can say is that customs may put the MU slightly in Zelda's favor only because we can force his approach and catch him from the air as he lands with a flare, something we can't do with din's fire.

Maybe it'd look more like this:
Default: 45:55
Customs:51:49

Does this seem right? I wish I could face a really good Ike but I've never seen one at any tourney.

I swear using Phantom strike actually hurts his recovery, like obviously they will always use Aether under the ledge, but i swear if its just too high above the ledge, a perfectly spaced phantom slash is death, same if he uses Quick draw for that matter, though that would be slightly more difficult.
Because Dsmash is basically our best semi-spike launcher, he will be somewhat unlikely to use Aether.
Trust me though, I know phantom has to be something that will actually work better then our dair, and i cant believe im saying this.......so would dins fire.....if timed right and used correctly...wow our 2 generally poor projectiles actually edge guard better then our dair.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

^ Just saying that charged Phantom is actually amazing at edgeguarding Ike. Since it's extremely disjointed you don't have to worry about being spiked by Aether or hit by Quick Draw and you can just charge it and wait for him to recover since he can't exactly stall his recovery for a long time. Another neat thing about the Phantom is that even if it doesn't hit him, if it's at the ledge Ike will have to go through it right? Whenever someone tries to go through the Phantom it slows their mobility and pushes them back, meaning if he tries to recover with Aether while it's there he'll just slide past it to his death

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

^ Just saying that charged Phantom is actually amazing at edgeguarding Ike. Since it's extremely disjointed you don't have to worry about being spiked by Aether or hit by Quick Draw and you can just charge it and wait for him to recover since he can't exactly stall his recovery for a long time. Another neat thing about the Phantom is that even if it doesn't hit him, if it's at the ledge Ike will have to go through it right? Whenever someone tries to go through the Phantom it slows their mobility and pushes them back, meaning if he tries to recover with Aether while it's there he'll just slide past it to his death

Exactly i just did that to an Ike player too

 

[Zylach]

I've seen Ike's recovery fail hard against a well placed phantom but that only happens when Ike misuses aether. If he goes just a little too high with it, then he'll be pushed away by the phantom but done right, Ike will be below phantom and not be affected by the push. That said, he doesn't immediately snap to the ledge allowing for a perfectly spaced phantom strike to semi-spike him to death but it has to be perfectly spaced and timed which is tricky. Plus, I believe, if Ike impacts something with his quick draw, he doesn't go into freefall allowing him to use aether, isn't that right? So, throwing phantom at him as he uses quick draw would only force him to recover low with aether depending on how far out you caught him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^ Just saying that charged Phantom is actually amazing at edgeguarding Ike. Since it's extremely disjointed you don't have to worry about being spiked by Aether or hit by Quick Draw and you can just charge it and wait for him to recover since he can't exactly stall his recovery for a long time. Another neat thing about the Phantom is that even if it doesn't hit him, if it's at the ledge Ike will have to go through it right? Whenever someone tries to go through the Phantom it slows their mobility and pushes them back, meaning if he tries to recover with Aether while it's there he'll just slide past it to his death

If customs are on, Aether Drive would be able to reach Zelda. The thing can shark a bit past 1/3 of Battlefield. Not sure how CQC interacts with Phantom, as CQC goes through things rather than stopping, including shields. How does Phantom interact with like Fox's Side B?

As well, Ike doesn't have to be as close to the ledge as some people think for Aether to snap: https://youtu.be/eFg8xDEgt-8

Its a risk for Ike to be sure when it comes to Phantom, but not quite as large of one as it would first appear.

As others have pointed out, now Dash Attack for Ike is mad deadly. And he gained a bunch of new combos including kill confirms the last patch. His Jab Combo is also pretty excellent now with people being unable to fall out of it, both Fair and Jab 3 had hitbox fixes: Fair hits high enough above Ike that he can hit somebody on the top BF platform with it out of a short hop.

Properly spaced Nair is only -1 or -2 on shield. I don't think Zelda can dash in, shield and hit Ike before his Frame 4 Jab happens? Zelda's Dtilt is frame 5, so that difference between -1 or -2 is going to mean a lot to Ike in this MU and we're not sure which number it is. Bair has enough shield pushback that unless you get a perfect shield I think you're going to be out of range for Dtilt (particularly when it's auto-canceled). Dair may actually be kinda safe on shield now, we haven't fully looked into it, but against some characters at least that's the case it would seem. And of course if you're fishing for shielding, we could just empty hop, which would lead to an easy grab if you committed to shield and then we get to pick a combo of our choosing. Its a mix up game on both sides, but I think overall Zelda ends up with inferior odds.

tbqh, you all kinda choose a bad time to try to do a new match up write up with a lot of changes, but nobody having had a real chance to try them in tournament yet. If it ends up being that Zelda can Nair -> Elevator consistently with the Nair changes, without DI screwing it up at kill percents and all of that, probably about 55-45 Ike's favour with range tipping the scale. If not, 60-40 Ike's favour. I also fail to see how customs make the match up better for Zelda but didn't see much talk as to why apparently some think Zelda's customs would benefit her more than Ike's would benefit him?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

If customs are on, Aether Drive would be able to reach Zelda. The thing can shark a bit past 1/3 of Battlefield. Not sure how CQC interacts with Phantom, as CQC goes through things rather than stopping, including shields. How does Phantom interact with like Fox's Side B?

As well, Ike doesn't have to be as close to the ledge as some people think for Aether to snap: https://youtu.be/eFg8xDEgt-8

Its a risk for Ike to be sure when it comes to Phantom, but not quite as large of one as it would first appear.

As others have pointed out, now Dash Attack for Ike is mad deadly. And he gained a bunch of new combos including kill confirms the last patch. His Jab Combo is also pretty excellent now with people being unable to fall out of it, both Fair and Jab 3 had hitbox fixes: Fair hits high enough above Ike that he can hit somebody on the top BF platform with it out of a short hop.

Properly spaced Nair is only -1 or -2 on shield. I don't think Zelda can dash in, shield and hit Ike before his Frame 4 Jab happens? Zelda's Dtilt is frame 5, so that difference between -1 or -2 is going to mean a lot to Ike in this MU and we're not sure which number it is. Bair has enough shield pushback that unless you get a perfect shield I think you're going to be out of range for Dtilt (particularly when it's auto-canceled). Dair may actually be kinda safe on shield now, we haven't fully looked into it, but against some characters at least that's the case it would seem. And of course if you're fishing for shielding, we could just empty hop, which would lead to an easy grab if you committed to shield and then we get to pick a combo of our choosing. Its a mix up game on both sides, but I think overall Zelda ends up with inferior odds.

tbqh, you all kinda choose a bad time to try to do a new match up write up with a lot of changes, but nobody having had a real chance to try them in tournament yet. If it ends up being that Zelda can Nair -> Elevator consistently with the Nair changes, without DI screwing it up at kill percents and all of that, probably about 55-45 Ike's favour with range tipping the scale. If not, 60-40 Ike's favour. I also fail to see how customs make the match up better for Zelda but didn't see much talk as to why apparently some think Zelda's customs would benefit her more than Ike's would benefit him?

Thanks for letting me know about Aether.

Zelda's customs make the matchup better for her because she gets Din's Flare, which is Din's Fire with nearly no vertical angling and a smaller hitbox, but it's extremely powerful at all distances (as strong as a sweetspot max distance Din's Fire) and travels faster. This allows her to force an approach since it's actually threatening unlike Din's Fire. She also gets Phantom Strike, which travels the same distance as a regular non charged Phantom and has very little knockback but it does absurd damage (28% fully charged), charges slightly faster than the default, has no blindspot, and sends at a very dangerous semispike angle. If she hits anyone besides Kirby, Jiggly, Pit, etc. with Phantom Strike off stage, regardless of if it's uncharged or charged, they probably won't be coming back.

Tempest is generally used for gimping and slightly helps recovery since it pushes Ike up a bit right? It won't really be useful for gimping Zelda since she has a teleport that can recover off stage from very far to the point where you might not want to risk going that far, even with Aether Drive. I'm not very knowledgeable on his side b customs but I don't think they make a huge impact. Aether Drive helps his recovery a lot due to the diagonal angle so it's harder to gimp him but he can still be gimped if you catch him before he uses it. Paralyzing Counter is very good since it sets up kills but it's still a counter, i.e. situational.

So I would say overall Zelda slightly benefits from them more but not by much since Aether Drive and Paralyzing Counter still improve Ike a lot.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike having to approach isn't really anything new to us, or something that is much of an issue with our buffed Dash Attack. I would assume it still has enough of a start up time that we could use CQC to get past it (All of Ike's Side Bs got a faster start up time with the last patch)? That would make it less of a "forcing an approach and tacking on damage as he does" and more "gamble Zelda's Side B against Ike's Side B". CQC clanks with a loooooot of projectiles. If its fully charged it can clank with Samus's charge shot, so the longer Ike can charge it the more projectiles he doesn't have to worry about. I don't have that Zelda custom unlocked though so I can't really see for myself how these two interact with each other/if Ike can safely CQC past it. Might depend on if an uncharged CQC clanks with it or not.

Ikes frequently use Tempest, but Furious Eruption is another option, one with even longer lingering frames to gamble with that ledge snap vulnerability window if we don't want to use the windbox. And its hitbox is even larger than regular Eruption's.

With the Side B, theoretically Ike could bring Unyielding Blade instead if we found Phantom to really be an issue. It has super armour the entire time its lunging, meaning that Phantom wouldn't be semi-spiking him. But then we don't have CQC on stage... something I don't think we can say either way unless we see this MU actually play out at a high level with customs.

There's no real set preference on which Counter Ike will use, particularly since we just found out that two patches ago, his Counters' knockback growth rates were actually buffed. Ike's Smash Counter can kill if it counters a smash attack or something like a Zelda lighting kick as low as 40%. But of course with its speed some people will stick with default counter and just be happy with it. Or some people will go for the Para Counter option for more kill confirms.

 

[Zylach]

The thing about Din's flare forcing approaches doesn't really mean that we will need you to come to us from the distance of the entire stage. As an Ike main, you should be doing that anyway as you have no way of pressuring us from that distance lol. Forcing an approach, especially on Ike, means keeping him out of that mid range where he may be looking to take advantage of a mistake on our part. I've faced a lot of Ike's that will stay just far enough away that I can't reach them with anything in my own arsenal because they know that I can't reach them and anything I do to get myself closer to them or vice versa can be seen coming from a mile off and punished very easily. For example, with default din's, activating it when Ike is at midrange is asking for an easy SH fair punish or dash attack after the explosion. Same goes for phantom. We can't even release a minimum charge phantom without getting punished from Ike at mid range. Meanwhile, if we try to approach him, well bad things happen because Zelda can't approach. Din's flare being faster helps with this kind of situation as does phantom strike since it has no blind spot so you can't just rush us down and watch as our phantom stumbles past you. Both of these tools really help Zelda's neutral game against Ike whose customs don't help him in neutral save for close combat on QD I believe since it's safe on shield as you just go past us. If Zelda wins neutral against Ike, she has a lot of tools to follow that up and extend her advantaged state against him such as nair chains, dash attack chains (provided you don't counter of course), FW tech chases, etc. Ike has these kinds of tools against us as well but we have one tool that we use very often (unlike your counter if Ike footage is anything to go on) that stops strings dead in their tracks, Nayru's Love with its intangibility frames and long-lasting hitbox. Yes, this can be baited but that's on the Zelda players' shoulders, not the character itself. Furthermore, we can do the same thing to your counters, bait them and punish them. It's why I put the customs MU so even because both of these characters have tools against the other. I put the customs MU literally 1 point in Zelda's favor simply because she does significantly better in neutral with her customs against Ike where Ike doesn't get the same kind of reward from his customs. Since neutral is where she really suffered here, that change puts it, albeit BARELY, in her favor maybe? Again, I'm still basing this off of non-tournament matches because I haven't faced one in tourney yet. Where are you Ike mains?

But, yes, with customs off, Zelda loses this MU. It's no Sheik MU though and it's definitely winnable on either side. Very even.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm in Belleville Ontario, Canada. I've been to all of the SSB4 tournaments I can find within an hour radius of here.

All one of them. Won it as well, but ya. This area drools over Melee and Project M too much, even though those tournaments actually get a lessor turnout than the 1 SSB4 tournament did.

Other Ikes tend to be in the NE part of the US or Florida largely, for a wide sweeping generalization. Or basically pick any area that doesn't stream or post footage often, there's probably a half decent Ike there.

---

Din's flare is faster, but I also saw that it has very little in the way of vertical movement. What is its vertical hitbox like (particularly, when compared to Ike's new Fair hitbox)?

I'd also be curious about how both Din Flare and Phantom Strike deal with Ike's faster dash attack. As in if they can be out and active fast enough to beat his dash attack. I'm not seeing their data in the frame data topic you guys have.

 

[Zylach]

The hitbox is for flare is fairly small and it doesn't travel vertically. Though, if you were to SH fair, it would hit your feet. FH, not so much.

As for the data on the other customs, those aren't quite up yet. Not sure why myself. I believe the customs for each have approximately the same startup as defaults so phantom minimal charge will be on frame 11 and din's minimum distance will be frame 15. There's a blind spot in front of Zelda on flare as it's minimal distance doesn't cover directly in front of her though we shouldn't be using it that close anyway. Like I said, medium distance, so about a full charge phantom swing away as that is our maximum distance on any move that isn't din's or Farore's Wind. Phantom's appearance causes a very strong pushbox so your dash attack probably won't even reach us as you'll be pushed back. That said, if you're using dash attack against us, we'll be shielding. Zelda loves to be in her shield since her OoS options are stellar.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Oh, Ike we're discussing? My former Brawl main that I wrecked with at tournaments even though I only played the game twice a year because my Wii broke? I miss the Brawl Ike days... Anyways, because I actually have good knowledge on both of these characters (although I'm not completely aware of how differently he plays now but I'm sure it's still the same idea from Brawl) I might actually be a help here for once... (Keep in mind this is based off of Brawl experience and matches against Ike fought in this game)

Things Ike has going for him over Zelda:

• Range
• Power
• A counter (if he counters your Bair/Fair, say goodbye)
• Weight
• Mobility

Things Zelda has over Ike:

• The Phantom (that screws up his recovery)
• A few quicker attacks with lasting hitboxes
• Din's Fire (can hit Ike recovering with Quick Draw, it's not completely useless)

Well... When you look at it... Because of Zelda being light and Ike being a heavy hitter, being KO'd will be easy for him to do at lower percents than normal if you mess up and he can punish. Because of his buffs he just received, some attacks are easier for him to hit us with, while others have less lag, therefore they're now harder to punish. Zelda can actually use the Phantom decently in this matchup for guarding the ledge against Ike's mediocre recovery. Because of Zelda's floatiness and Ike being faster now, he can chase us easier when we're knocked upwards for follow ups, so recovering over to the ledge might be the safest option since he can't go too far off. Alternatively, you could try to hit him while falling, but if he sees it coming and counters, pray you sourspotted it.

I'd say Zelda keeping her distance and punishing when she can is the best option. Ike is very laggy just as Zelda is, so try to use that to your advantage when you can. I wouldn't worry about his ledge guarding game since we teleport through everything (why do some people try to gimp Zelda again?). His combo game can be pretty damaging, and I wouldn't reccomend recovering near him since he can cover such a wide area. I lost a stock the other day to an Utilt that I didn't see coming, because I was expecting one of his other laggy moves, so beware of that (and Dtilt because he'll try to combo with it).

Ike has the advantage here in most situations, but he's very easy to gimp and punish when taking risks. Hold off on your Lagning Kicks, because a good Ike will surprise you with that single counter the entire match and take out your stock (it's more painful in Ike doubles since almost everything can KO you). I'd agree with the 45:55 ratio. Keeping your distance and waiting for a punish, and getting him offstage seem to be the best options. Dair spiking him is so easy and satisfying.

Oh and before I forget: Beware the Bair (for obvious reasons).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Zeldas out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Zelda. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Zelda match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/408232/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Daidarapochi]

Robin when?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I know the matchup thread has been a bit dry for the week but moving along lets get to Robin now.

ANNOUNCEMENT: taking a cue from the Rosie boards and seeing that we are kind of behind in Zelda's custom Meta discussion and most people mention customs we are officially adding custom meta to our discussion. there will be two ratios for summaries as well as the "additional info" section will now become "Customs Temple" as most additional info was silly quirks lol. all i ask is that you guys mark your ratios for custom and default you can even dedicate different sections of post for customs and for default if you like if the matchups are very different. i'm thinking of starting a second thread to rediscuss matchups already done since most of it lacks customs info and patches have occurred.

now back to Robin
I actually like fighting Robin. its one of the few times the opponent having a sword isn't so detrimental to Zelda. its refreshing to have my opponents sword just hurt not hurt and reach all the way across the stage. also Robin has a poor grab and jigglypuff movement on the ground which means being shield grabbed when Zelda is spacing is so much less of a stress than other characters...i dare say Zelda is actually safe to hit Robins shield sometimes.

with or without a lead i don't think Robin or Zelda can force the other to approach. Thoron can reach from across the stage but its pretty bad as a projectile and takes a while to charge and El and Arc are still a little slow Zelda might even be able to Farores snipe if she catches Robin shooting Arc fire is better for walling out and follow ups, same with Arcthunder. i think Zelda might have to turtle her way in if Robin is being very stand offish, because they don't have an approach either, and its a stalemate at 0 because Dins and Phantom can worm their way in to hit Robin (finally no reflectors) but its still not the best camping options.

Robins follow ups hurt if you get caught in Arcfire/Thunder because Levin sword is really strong. same with being Uair juggled by Robin if Zelda gets caught up above them. fortunately Robin moves slow on the ground so Zelda can get away if she is being juggled better than against some characters thanks to good air speed. Zelda's general combos work on Robin as far as i can tell. Robins normals are fast but with the exception of Levin sword attacks Robins general sword is like Toonie reach so she can fight back with her own reach.

the only time i've seen Robin try to gimp me is with UpB if i'm recovering low otherwise they just let me back to the ledge and try to trap me with like arc fire traps. I find Zelda is better at gimping Robin with Nair than Dair. fub Dair doesn't kill Robin as good as other characters thanks to Elwinds high vertical reach, but if i push Robin too far away they generally aren't coming back or it makes a Dair spike easier.

Vanilla: 5:5
Custom: ??:?? I haven't fought Custom Robin.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Random little info: At kill percents, light and floaty characters (aka Zelda) can DI out of Arcfire

 

[Zylach]

*Note* I think I've been giving different scores for default and customs anyway so I'll just keep doing what I've been doing I suppose.

*Note #2* I regularly face male Robin so I will refer to Robin as he/him/etc because habit

As for Robin: I definitely think we win this! I regularly face one of the top players in Wisconsin, IGNO, who is a Robin main and consistently beat him with my Zelda. Basically, Robin is really punishable even when spacing against us with his aerials because of his poor mobility. The lag on his moves isn't terrible but he can't get far enough away from us to be safe when spacing with moves like fair and uair. I regularly powershield his aerials and run in for a quick grab and, because of his weight, our combos out of dthrow work wonders on him and he doesn't have a reliable combo-breaker attack so we can actually keep up things like nair chains. I regularly get dthrow>nair>sweetspotted bair at low percents on Robin as well.

What Robin ultimately wants to do is zone us out with el/arc thunders as well as arcfire. The problem with that is, it's easy to see when a thunder spell is coming so we can reflect it. Not only does Robin shout out which thunder spell he's going to use, they travel at a comfortable speed for us to react and reflect. The only thing we can't reliably reflect against Robin is arcfire since it is reflected right over his head. Arcfire, however, has tremendous endlag and is easily FW sniped. Since we can exploit Robin's strengths so well, he has a very difficult time in neutral against us (which is rare to say for a character going against Zelda). Tack on the fact that we can DI and jump out of his Arcfire and wind jab and he has a lot of trouble getting kill confirms on us as well whereas we get our guaranteed nair>elevator/usmash on him now.

Top it all off with our ability to gimp his recovery while he can't gimp ours and we are very solid in this MU. Things Zelda does want to watch out for, though, are being in the air while Robin is as well since his air game is better than ours (uair anyone?), Robin's trump>bair is guaranteed (don't get trumped), Nosferatu (It's a command grab so Robin landing against you while your shield is up grants him free damage/healing), and those books. Robin mains will know when their books are used up and SHAD to catch them. They can kill at 80-90% depending on rage and stage position. We have enough wisdom without books, don't accept them!

Customs don't do a ton for Robin and the MU feels basically the same when he uses customs though his up-B customs can throw off our gimping game and Neutral-B customs can dish out significantly more damage than default though that also means reflected does the same thing to him.

Default and Customs score: 60:40 I've never struggled against a Robin.

 

[Macchiato]

*Note* I think I've been giving different scores for default and customs anyway so I'll just keep doing what I've been doing I suppose.

*Note #2* I regularly face male Robin so I will refer to Robin as he/him/etc because habit

As for Robin: I definitely think we win this! I regularly face one of the top players in Wisconsin, IGNO, who is a Robin main and consistently beat him with my Zelda. Basically, Robin is really punishable even when spacing against us with his aerials because of his poor mobility. The lag on his moves isn't terrible but he can't get far enough away from us to be safe when spacing with moves like fair and uair. I regularly powershield his aerials and run in for a quick grab and, because of his weight, our combos out of dthrow work wonders on him and he doesn't have a reliable combo-breaker attack so we can actually keep up things like nair chains. I regularly get dthrow>nair>sweetspotted bair at low percents on Robin as well.

What Robin ultimately wants to do is zone us out with el/arc thunders as well as arcfire. The problem with that is, it's easy to see when a thunder spell is coming so we can reflect it. Not only does Robin shout out which thunder spell he's going to use, they travel at a comfortable speed for us to react and reflect. The only thing we can't reliably reflect against Robin is arcfire since it is reflected right over his head. Arcfire, however, has tremendous endlag and is easily FW sniped. Since we can exploit Robin's strengths so well, he has a very difficult time in neutral against us (which is rare to say for a character going against Zelda). Tack on the fact that we can DI and jump out of his Arcfire and wind jab and he has a lot of trouble getting kill confirms on us as well whereas we get our guaranteed nair>elevator/usmash on him now.

Top it all off with our ability to gimp his recovery while he can't gimp ours and we are very solid in this MU. Things Zelda does want to watch out for, though, are being in the air while Robin is as well since his air game is better than ours (uair anyone?), Robin's trump>bair is guaranteed (don't get trumped), Nosferatu (It's a command grab so Robin landing against you while your shield is up grants him free damage/healing), and those books. Robin mains will know when their books are used up and SHAD to catch them. They can kill at 80-90% depending on rage and stage position. We have enough wisdom without books, don't accept them!

Customs don't do a ton for Robin and the MU feels basically the same when he uses customs though his up-B customs can throw off our gimping game and Neutral-B customs can dish out significantly more damage than default though that also means reflected does the same thing to him.

Default and Customs score: 60:40 I've never struggled against a Robin.

I'll add that all his Kills are reads. He has no Set-ups into a kill since we can SDI out of Arcfire. He is forced to read with his slow moves.

We get Flare to force an approach and a fast punish. Phantom Strike gimps him so easily. Robin's Thunder customs don't change much and Fire Wall isn't good of a tool against Zelda.

I'll say 60-40 Zelda as well and 65-35 Zelda with customs.

 

[PUK]

He has set up with his nosferatu, but it's slow so ok

 

[Meneil]

Hi Zeldas, I'm from the Robin board, and saw you were discussing this MU.

First off, about customs - I'd probably just run default Robin over customs vs a Zelda, though his customs give different options in other matchups. I'm not familiar with Zelda's customs, so everything below this is going to be about them both without customs.

Robin pins down Zelda's neutral quite well. Zelda might have a reflector, but this doesn't really pose a problem to an aware Robin. Arcfire being reflected is no big deal, it'll just bounce up past Robin, neither hitting him nor giving Zelda time to attack Robin out of it. I fought a Zelda in tournament who would actually DI out of Arcfire's initial hits, and then reflect the last hit, to try and prevent me from following up after hit confirmations. However while this surprised me the first time, it's a wildly unsafe option - the next time I ran up, shielded the reflect, and fsmashed him out of it. Arcfire's main weakness is that a lot of characters can just roll around it, leaving Robin open - yet Zelda has a poor roll, making this not as viable for her. She also lacks the speed to run past him.

In terms of reflecting thunder, all Robin needs to do is be in a position where he could toss it out, or he could just play the normal neutral game, where throwing out Nayru is unsafe unless it's a very hard read. Basically: unless a Robin is trying to camp you super far away (he shouldn't), reflector isn't going to help in this match.

Robin does fall into some combo weight for Zelda, such as her dthrow to Nair, dtilts and utilts. Dash attack is also a good option against arcfire, because Zelda ducks which can avoid its initial hitbox. Robin's linear recovery can make it more difficult for him to get back to the stage.

I had two sets recorded against Cosmo's Zelda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghMQQEcyZQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcU9iPJG68

I actually played another Zelda earlier in the pools bracket too, unfortunately those weren't recorded. This is probably not going to be a commonly seen matchup in tournaments though.

Just due to Robin's options in their neutral game, I'd put this close to even but slightly in Robin's favor.

 

[Zylach]

Hi Zeldas, I'm from the Robin board, and saw you were discussing this MU.

First off, about customs - I'd probably just run default Robin over customs vs a Zelda, though his customs give different options in other matchups. I'm not familiar with Zelda's customs, so everything below this is going to be about them both without customs.

Robin pins down Zelda's neutral quite well. Zelda might have a reflector, but this doesn't really pose a problem to an aware Robin. Arcfire being reflected is no big deal, it'll just bounce up past Robin, neither hitting him nor giving Zelda time to attack Robin out of it. I fought a Zelda in tournament who would actually DI out of Arcfire's initial hits, and then reflect the last hit, to try and prevent me from following up after hit confirmations. However while this surprised me the first time, it's a wildly unsafe option - the next time I ran up, shielded the reflect, and fsmashed him out of it. Arcfire's main weakness is that a lot of characters can just roll around it, leaving Robin open - yet Zelda has a poor roll, making this not as viable for her. She also lacks the speed to run past him.

In terms of reflecting thunder, all Robin needs to do is be in a position where he could toss it out, or he could just play the normal neutral game, where throwing out Nayru is unsafe unless it's a very hard read. Basically: unless a Robin is trying to camp you super far away (he shouldn't), reflector isn't going to help in this match.

Robin does fall into some combo weight for Zelda, such as her dthrow to Nair, dtilts and utilts. Dash attack is also a good option against arcfire, because Zelda ducks which can avoid its initial hitbox. Robin's linear recovery can make it more difficult for him to get back to the stage.

I had two sets recorded against Cosmo's Zelda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghMQQEcyZQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcU9iPJG68

I actually played another Zelda earlier in the pools bracket too, unfortunately those weren't recorded. This is probably not going to be a commonly seen matchup in tournaments though.

Just due to Robin's options in their neutral game, I'd put this close to even but slightly in Robin's favor.

Not to discredit your Robin (which is very good. Looks better than Wisconsin's best Robin actually.) But Cosmo was not playing Zelda very well against you in either of those sets. He plays a very aggressive Zelda that will always end badly for her. He whiffed a lot of Lkicks and threw out Nayru's Love waaaaaaay too much allowing you to punish him all day long. I would not call that a prime example of smart Zelda play.

 

[Macchiato]

Hi Zeldas, I'm from the Robin board, and saw you were discussing this MU.

First off, about customs - I'd probably just run default Robin over customs vs a Zelda, though his customs give different options in other matchups. I'm not familiar with Zelda's customs, so everything below this is going to be about them both without customs.

Robin pins down Zelda's neutral quite well. Zelda might have a reflector, but this doesn't really pose a problem to an aware Robin. Arcfire being reflected is no big deal, it'll just bounce up past Robin, neither hitting him nor giving Zelda time to attack Robin out of it. I fought a Zelda in tournament who would actually DI out of Arcfire's initial hits, and then reflect the last hit, to try and prevent me from following up after hit confirmations. However while this surprised me the first time, it's a wildly unsafe option - the next time I ran up, shielded the reflect, and fsmashed him out of it. Arcfire's main weakness is that a lot of characters can just roll around it, leaving Robin open - yet Zelda has a poor roll, making this not as viable for her. She also lacks the speed to run past him.

In terms of reflecting thunder, all Robin needs to do is be in a position where he could toss it out, or he could just play the normal neutral game, where throwing out Nayru is unsafe unless it's a very hard read. Basically: unless a Robin is trying to camp you super far away (he shouldn't), reflector isn't going to help in this match.

Robin does fall into some combo weight for Zelda, such as her dthrow to Nair, dtilts and utilts. Dash attack is also a good option against arcfire, because Zelda ducks which can avoid its initial hitbox. Robin's linear recovery can make it more difficult for him to get back to the stage.

I had two sets recorded against Cosmo's Zelda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghMQQEcyZQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcU9iPJG68

I actually played another Zelda earlier in the pools bracket too, unfortunately those weren't recorded. This is probably not going to be a commonly seen matchup in tournaments though.

Just due to Robin's options in their neutral game, I'd put this close to even but slightly in Robin's favor.

Tbh Cosmo wasn't that good at Combo Breaker. I'm P sure it was the skill gap in those matches. Like Zylach said, Cosmo spammed Nayru's Love way too much and was being a way too aggressive. There's also that option of using Farore's Wind at you when you throw out a thunder or arcfire or when your charging a thunder. Thunder is still very reactable even at close distances due to its poor speed. Actually, Nayru's Love is a great OOS option too and it stops approaches. You also forgot to add anything about the offstage game where as Robin is easily gimped by Zelda. Zelda is hard to gimp due to her having a Teleport. Due to his predictable recovery, we get a dair off and he probably won't be coming back.

Also amazing Robin btw.