Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Macchiato]

WAAAAA 75-25? NO Matchup is that bad

put me down for 60-40

 

[JigglyZelda003]

WAAAAA 75-25? NO Matchup is that bad

put me down for 60-40

honestly gurl some matchups I feel are that bad, what do we have to win this as a 40:60? I'm just glad sm4sh makes people die, otherwise this could be brawl olimar bad.

 

[Macchiato]

honestly gurl some matchups I feel are that bad, what do we have to win this as a 40:60? I'm just glad sm4sh makes people die, otherwise this could be brawl olimar bad.

No 60-40 in ZSS' favor gorl.

 

[evmaxy54]

I really need to play this MU more before I can give a ratio, but this is BAAAADDDDDD.

I'm thinking (just purely theorycraft here) if a more aggressive playstyle might be the best for this MU, so that Fanservice has less room to set up & run circles around us

@ DoctorDub can you try to find exact number of frames of ZSS is in lag from a shielded Down B pwease? I want to see how much time we have to punish it with Uair

 

[DoctorDub]

I'm thinking (just purely theorycraft here) if a more aggressive playstyle might be the best for this MU
Can you try to find exact number of frames of ZSS is in lag from a shielded Down B pwease? I want to see how much time we have to punish it with Uair

I'd say an aggressive playstyle is exactly what gets us murdered. If you're ever approaching, then you need to be smart and surprising when you do it. Reserve yourself and mess with their head.

I'll see what I can do about the Flip Kick

 

[Macchiato]

@|ven| help us gorl help

 

[DoctorDub]

No 60-40 in ZSS' favor gorl.

It's not 25:75, I'll give you that anyday
But it's not 4:6 either. There are way to many shortcomings we have to put up with to make it as such. I'm going for a 35:65.
I say this as a ZSS and Zelda main. I've had this battle from both sides before.

I can't find documented endlag for the flip kick ****ing anywhere.
I took it into practice mode and I feel like it has around 55-60 frames of lag on a shielded kick.
That being said, I don't know about punishing it with Up-air. The angle is too awkward for that to be a go-to punish. Fair and Bair seem to be consistent as kill moves, as well as Nair if they're at low percent for racking up damage. Up-Air is good if you read the attack and you can hit them before they get a chance to kick you.

 

[Macchiato]

NO MATCH UP IS AS BAD AS TOON LINK

 

[evmaxy54]

NO MATCH UP IS AS BAD AS TOON LINK

Peach, Sheik & Little Mac (on FD) say hi.

Edit: Just a wee comment regarding the Sheik MU, like, don't jump in neutral kk because you should always get needled if you do.

 

[Macchiato]

Peach, Sheik & Little Mac (on FD) say hi.

Edit: Just a wee comment regarding the Sheik MU, like, don't jump in neutral kk because you should always get needled if you do.

I think Peach is even
Sheik is a slight disadvantage
Little Mac is a small disadvantage.

I think Zelda's worst match up is Toon Link

 

[DoctorDub]

I think Peach is even


Sheik is a slight disadvantage


I think Zelda's worst match up is Toon Link

Well, the problem with that is that
You're wrong.
You're just wrong.

 

[Macchiato]

Well, the problem with that is that
You're wrong.
You're just wrong.

It's right

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ Macchiato How come you think Peach is even? I always find that matchup so hard, and it seems everyone else does too

 

[PUK]

I think in 2 years we will look back at the sheik MU and we will ask ourselves why we thought it was bad for zelda.

 

[DoctorDub]

I think in 2 years we will look back at the sheik MU and we will ask ourselves why we thought it was bad for zelda.

I'm willing to bet that in 2 years, we'll have seen quite a few balance patches, so maybe you're right.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

B-b-but they're both light blue...

Hmm... So is animated Britney Spears in the Break The Ice music video (or it's still blue-ish at least). So in theory, is ZSS in her red outfit actually the real Britney Spears from the Oops! I Did It Again music video? If so, she's obviously having her revenge for 2007 in this game. The paralyzer/whip is her newly reformed umbrella. Zelda is like the Christina Aguilera here. No wonder we're so outmatched in success compared to her.
Moral: We can have some success, but we'll never quite catch up to her's.

Anyways, still going to stick with my 40:60 ratio, considering I've seen Wii Fit Trainer beat high tiers before. If WFT can get work done, there's no reason why we can't. All we need to do is play very smart and cautiously, sometimes taking the right risks. God forbid platorms.
(I've been very sick lately, so forgive me if I just said anything ridiculous, I can't think straight.)

 

[evmaxy54]

Anyways, still going to stick with my 40:60 ratio, considering I've seen Wii Fit Trainer beat high tiers before. If WFT can get work done, there's no reason why we can't. All we need to do is play very smart and cautiously, sometimes taking the right risks. God forbid platorms.
(I've been very sick lately, so forgive me if I just said anything ridiculous, I can't think straight.)

Whoever WFT beats in the top tiers has no concern on who Zelda beats in the top tiers. She might have the tools to effectively deal with them but those tools are completely different to what we have (if we have tools for them in the first place) so that comparison holds no water.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Whoever WFT beats in the top tiers has no concern on who Zelda beats in the top tiers. She might have the tools to effectively deal with them but those tools are completely different to what we have (if we have tools for them in the first place) so that comparison holds no water.

This.

Not to mention WFT is a much better character than Zelda too lol.

 

[DoctorDub]

40:60 ratio, considering I've seen Wii Fit Trainer beat high tiers before. If WFT can get work done, there's no reason why we can't.

forgive me if I just said anything ridiculous

I'll forgive you, then I guess.

May I remind you that we aren't dealing with WFT? There is a massive difference between the two. These differences involve frame data, weight, height, etc etc.

To expand on what evmaxy said:
You can't talk about match ups like that just because "well character A is bad, yet okay with this match up, so character B MUST be fine, too."
Why do you think Dr. Mario and Mario are way apart on the tier lists?
Mario is easily top 15 in this game, Doc is often seen as low-mid, yet they have similar movesets
Dark Pit and Pit?
Pit is again, very high up, but last I checked, Dark Pit wasn't in as good a position.
These characters have similar moves and still cannot be compared, so ones that are in similar tiers can't even nearly be compared.
What Mario can't beat Little Mac? Then I guess Dr. Mario can't either! And since Dr. Mario and Zelda are both low tier, then RIP Zelda.
No.
Stop.
Shh.
/rant

 

[JigglyZelda003]

No 60-40 in ZSS' favor gorl.

that's what i meant, i'm a Zelda that's why i put 4:6 lol

NO MATCH UP IS AS BAD AS TOON LINK

gurl if i could do a whole Tourney of only Toonie I'd take it if it meant i didn't have to run into things like Pikachu, or Zamus, or YOSHI XD

I think Peach is even
Sheik is a slight disadvantage
Little Mac is a small disadvantage.

I think Zelda's worst match up is Toon Link

Well, the problem with that is that
You're wrong.
You're just wrong.

guys lets be respectful of others matchup views lol. we may not feel someone else is "right" about a matchup number but replys just to say someones matchup view is wrong can just derail us from the task at hand. (I can't count the number of time's i've been told my MU views are wrong)

@ Macchiato How come you think Peach is even? I always find that matchup so hard, and it seems everyone else does too

IMO similar to Rosie (which is evenish when Luma is gone) Peach follows a similar exception. as long as Peach does not hold more than a 5% advantage and you run away from her the whole match the match is evenish.

 

[DoctorDub]

Alright look, there seems to be some disagreement on the matter, so why don't we use a poll to decide? I set one up and we can use it to give all of our opinions.

You can only vote once, but please do actually vote. It'd be useful.

http://strawpoll.me/4378131/

 

[Macchiato]

that's what i meant, i'm a Zelda that's why i put 4:6 lol

gurl if i could do a whole Tourney of only Toonie I'd take it if it meant i didn't have to run into things like Pikachu, or Zamus, or YOSHI XD


guys lets be respectful of others matchup views lol. we may not feel someone else is "right" about a matchup number but replys just to say someones matchup view is wrong can just derail us from the task at hand. (I can't count the number of time's i've been told my MU views are wrong)

IMO similar to Rosie (which is evenish when Luma is gone) Peach follows a similar exception. as long as Peach does not hold more than a 5% advantage and you run away from her the whole match the match is evenish.

I'm CERTAIN we beat Pikachu. Yoshi imo is pretty even. Zamus... LOL.

 

[evmaxy54]

Straw polls are p much useless for this scenario since an accurate MU ratio requires discussion from both character's perspectives for the most accurate results. With a straw poll we've becoming one step closer to becoming EventScrubz

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Alright look, there seems to be some disagreement on the matter, so why don't we use a poll to decide? I set one up and we can use it to give all of our opinions.

You can only vote once, but please do actually vote. It'd be useful.

http://strawpoll.me/4378131/

usually our matchup ratios come from averaging of votes from among the discussion anyway thanks to @ BJN39 . lol

 

[DoctorDub]

Straw polls are p much useless for this scenario since an accurate MU ratio requires discussion from both character's perspectives for the most accurate results. With a straw poll we've becoming one step closer to becoming EventScrubz

We've got folks all over going "Well, I think it's this" and it'd be better to get an idea of the general consensus rather than debating the same points over and over again. I'm not asking for this to define it down to the dot, not exactly, but I think we should know where the most people stand on the situation.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm CERTAIN we beat Pikachu.

wait what please explain. I'm not doubting you I'm just very curious why you think that

 

[Macchiato]

wait what please explain. I'm not doubting you I'm just very curious why you think that

Pikachu, like sheik has trouble kill. Which is always a good thing for Zelda. Pikachu gets most his kills off gimps which is very hard to get against Zelda. We can still gimp him what so ever. We outrange him too. While his moves have low lag they still have some lag and are punishable. He's also incredibly light so we kill him early. He's still a normal character and is affected by our combos. The only real advantage I see Pikachu having over us is better pressuring.
https://youtu.be/fOuGA00U0HY
https://youtu.be/12_FRV8G518
I think its at least even for us. Idk what do you think @Nairo

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Hahahahaha, oh my god. Are you guys going ballistic on me?
I apologize for that entire post, I shouldn't be posting on 2 hours of sleep after being very sick for several days like I did. It's my fault really.
In case you wondering though, I already knew about every little thing you had to say in retaliation to my comment. When I said it, I meant it in the sense that that matchup isn't hopeless by using one of the current "lolpicks" (yes I know she's not the worst character in the game and can actually do well, but most the people I've talked to think otherwise) as an example, not that we're just like Wii Fit Trainer, or that it 100% proves that we are just as likely to win.
Let's move on now and keep properly discussing the matchup, unlike myself earlier.

 

[Zylach]

Sorry for the late reply but I've been remarkably busy with finals and graduation in the past week so I haven't been here. As for ZSS:

This MU is bad for Zelda but not unwinnable. ZSS has us beat in most categories but the categories where we beat her are actually fairly strong.
ZSS wins in:
1. Mobility (Ability to punish and not be punished herself)
2. Aerials
3. Landing/Endlag (Ability to be punished herself)
4. Range (Especially on moves like side-B and usmash)
5. Other stuff I forgot/won't focus on in my response

Zelda wins in:
1. Kill potential (Though not by much, ZSS up-B is stupid)
2. Disjoints (ZSS' spacing game is fairly reliant on her tilts whose disjoints aren't even close to our spacing attacks though side-B and usmash are big exceptions)
3. Recovery (Barely since ZSS has intangibility on down-B and options with her up-B or tether but we can't be touched save for 1 frame as we grab the ledge).
4. General ground game (ZSS is an aerial character but is still dangerous on the ground, this is barely favorable for Zelda tbh but... disjoints)
5. Capitalizing on her opponent's tall stature more than her opponent capitalizes on Zelda's tall stature.

Zelda's strong points aren't amazing until one considers her general playstyle versus the playstyle of most ZSS'. We all know that Zelda wants the opponent to approach her and ZSS will gladly do this because she's really good at it. However, at the same time, ZSS also wants to grab. She has ways to bait Zelda into shielding so she can get a safe grab like laser-->grab, jab 1-->grab, etc. However, a missed grab on ZSS' part is deadly for her as Zelda can capitalize on it in big ways. Because of this, Zelda is actually safer in shield against ZSS than one might think and Zelda likes being in shield. This also goes for ZSS' kill moves (fsmash, up-B, flip kick). She has setups into them but if they're mistimed for any reason and whiff or hit shield, Zelda can annihilate her in return.

What Zelda can't deal with is an aerial opponent, however, and ZSS is very much an aerial character. Zelda cannot challenge ZSS in the air at all. The best thing that can happen should Zelda challenge ZSS in the air is probably a trade meaning Lkicks will probably not be sweetspotted and trade with an uair, fair, or bair. The only aerials that Zelda has here are nair and uair. Nair's multihitting make it safe as cover should we be caught in the air against ZSS and uair's disjointed hitbox helps against ZSS's general lack of aerial disjoints (besides nair), especially if she's above us. Speaking of being above the opponent, Zelda doesn't like being there. ZSS wants us there. If we're there in this MU, we're gonna have a bad time. Characters with uair juggle combos are Zelda's worst nightmare. Pikachu, Falcon, Mario, all of these characters will juggle us to death and this is the one thing we want to avoid in all of these MU's. Priority number one: Don't get juggled.

Some final notes, Zelda will have a hard time punishing ZSS as ZSS' laggy moves are far and few between and she won't be using them often so we won't get a chance to punish them often. ZSS will run circles around us. Be patient. Patience wins. Avoid low ceiling stages, especially Battlefield and Delfino as ZSS' 0-death combo on these stages is a constant danger.

Default:
35:65

Customs
40:60 (Flare and Strike help Zelda's keep-out game, ZSS' customs... do what now?)

 

[Alacion]

-3 Zelda. No more camping for Zelda so learn to go in

Not even going to read this thread and find Macc saying it's +2 or something.

 

[BJN39]

-3 Zelda. No more camping for Zelda so learn to go in

Not even going to read this thread and find Macc saying it's +2 or something.

He said 4:6 ZSS's favor

Did ZSS actually lose anything from this MU from Brawl?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Did ZSS actually lose anything from this MU from Brawl?

Plasma Whip isn't a kill move anymore so we don't have to worry about dying from 20 feet away from her. She can still hit us with Paralyzer from far away though but she probably won't have enough time to run up and up b or fsmash, just grab or dash attack

 

[JigglyZelda003]

dash grab leads to Dthrow>air shenanigans/UpB, dash attack leads to air shenanigans/UpB or she could just bouncing fish while were frozen in place. All she lost was sideB spam but now she can Zair. The ***** gained everything and lost nothing :v

 

[JigglyZelda003]

now Fu I expect you to be here for Palutena discussion.

in the meantime lets move onto Pit. Do we want to incorporate dark pit for this discussion too girls? Cause I honestly approach them both the same and other than being less harrased at a distance this matchup with both of them feels exactly the same.

I think pit is evenish. He can camp but its not too harsh, he has good poke range but we can rival it, he doesn't run us over too badly. We can gimp him, but it really feels like it comes down to player skill.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Uh sure, but how about we start doing more then 1 character a week, like many other boards, seeing as how not very active these are, it would help.

Also can't we at least get a vote in what character to do next?
I would like to talk about someone like Kirby or jiggly or maybe even villager.

 

[PUK]

Uh sure, but how about we start doing more then 1 character a week, like many other boards, seeing as how not very active these are, it would help.

Also can't we at least get a vote in what character to do next?
I would like to talk about someone like Kirby or jiggly or maybe even villager.

We have a schedule and it works very well for now.

About Pit it's one of the MU i don't really fear. Usamsh and Dsmash are BS, but not really safe.
The problem is pit can camp us like hell, but fortunately never does.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Uh sure, but how about we start doing more then 1 character a week, like many other boards, seeing as how not very active these are, it would help.

Also can't we at least get a vote in what character to do next?
I would like to talk about someone like Kirby or jiggly or maybe even villager.

when restarting the matchup thread(this one) it was in agreement of those involved that we would just go in order of the character select screen and then rediscuss as necessary on the other characters. Since I'm the one that writes the summaries I didn't want to do more than one matchup a week because sometimes we have alot of discussion but as of late has been minimal. I am also a bit behind in updating even though some summaries have been written just not posted.

 

[BJN39]

when restarting the matchup thread(this one) it was in agreement of those involved that we would just go in order of the character select screen and then rediscuss as necessary on the other characters. Since I'm the one that writes the summaries I didn't want to do more than one matchup a week because sometimes we have alot of discussion but as of late has been minimal. I am also a bit behind in updating even though some summaries have been written just not posted.

Oh yeah, speaking of written but not posted, here are a few MU final scores that I hadn't relayed to you yet:

45:55

55:45

35:65

We now have ONE MU that ended up above 55:45 or better for Zelda...lol poor Samus who is about equally as badly designed as Zelda...

I think I'll actually make a little table or something showing all the current MU results together shortly.

 

[Macchiato]

Oh yeah, speaking of written but not posted, here are a few MU final scores that I hadn't relayed to you yet:

45:55

55:45

35:65

We now have ONE MU that ended up above 55:45 or better for Zelda...lol poor Samus who is about equally as badly designed as Zelda...

I think I'll actually make a little table or something showing all the current MU results together shortly.

LOL AT THE TINK MU. its her worst MU

 

[BJN39]

LOL AT THE TINK MU. its her worst MU

Actually, I HAVE been wondering, what would you score the MU at?