Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[JigglyZelda003]

Time to discuss Toonie and how much we I despise him. Toonie is alot nicer to deal with than brawl but still a pain to chase around the stage and harder to kill.

 

[Macchiato]

NOPE NOPE NOPE MY WORST MATCH UP NO TELL ME WHEN THIS NIGHTMARE IS OVER

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The Toon Link MU: A Link to Macchi's Nightmares

Anyways, I don't think this MU is that hard. Maybe I'll do a writeup later

 

[Zylach]

I don't have a lot of experience in the TL MU but I imagine it would go similarly to the Link MU. The main differences here are that TL is more mobile than Link which means he'll be kiting us around the stage. His projectiles shouldn't be doing too much damage to us since they are predictable and reflectable but catching him is a pain. Not to mention, he has a killing bthrow. Despite my lack of experience, I would still hazard an educated guess at this MU:

45:55

 

[Uncertain Title]

I've only fought one good Toon Link; pretty sure that that was the worst match I've ever had.
All he did was throw his boomerang and then followup with his FAir when it popped me up, and that always caught me by surprise. He would usually kill the same way, just adding an U-Smash to the end of the whole thing...
Gonna have to agree with Zylach that this is a 45/65 in favor. I'd put it slightly lower, but I'm sure my experience was just that bad because I havn't fought that many Toon Link's. I don't think it's as bad as my experience makes it out to be...right?

 

[meleebrawler]

I've only fought one good Toon Link; pretty sure that that was the worst match I've ever had.
All he did was throw his boomerang and then followup with his FAir when it popped me up, and that always caught me by surprise. He would usually kill the same way, just adding an U-Smash to the end of the whole thing...
Gonna have to agree with Zylach that this is a 45/65 in favor. I'd put it slightly lower, but I'm sure my experience was just that bad because I havn't fought that many Toon Link's. I don't think it's as bad as my experience makes it out to be...right?

Therein lies the key aspect of the matchup: Toon Link is heavily reliant on his projectiles, particularly boomerangs
(mind the return) and bombs to get things going. Unlike Link, he can't use superior melee range to box you out nearly
as well, and he's much worse at pressuring shields in the air due to his nair and dair. Baiting his aerials can be a good
way to get hits in, and remember he's just as vulnerable to Farore's as Link if you catch him throwing projectiles on the ground.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yea his projectiles as somewhat faster, he's faster, he has shorter, but still decent ranged attacks, he has faster attacks and a decent recovery, because he's smaller, he's harder to hit.

But I think spacing with Utilts and Fsmashes could keep him back if he were to try and approach, but yea the being more mobile part along with his projectiles being slightly less laggy? Gives him a noticeable advantage.

 

[DoctorDub]

I've seen good Toon Links before, albeit I've never really fought them properly. What I have to say is mostly based on observation of other people playing. Keep in mind, I'm talking GOOD toon links. Not your run of the mill, FG tink who thinks Dair is safe on shield.

• Fear the bombs for combos and kills.

Tinks often will use their bombs as an aerial combo starter. They'll often wait for the perfect moment and throw one right in your face. This'll pop you up and you'll be wide open for basically any aerial attack of their choice. If you're at hight percent, it's not uncommon for a Tink to Z-drop and just straight up throw a bomb down on you from above and link into an Up-air which is a good kill option for him. I recommend grabbing the bomb out of the air and using the C-stick to immediately toss it back. We may have enough time for an aerial of our own, but I haven't been able to try anything.

• Fear the boomerang for combos.

Another way a Tink can pop you up in the air is with his boomerang. He can quite safely throw it out from a distance and run in to follow up due to his incredible speed. I never notice them using the boomerang when standing on the ground, either. They're always in the air and mostly throwing it diagonally down (which can then bounce off the floor and hit us). I don't often see a boomerang lead into a kill, though. They'll usually use a bomb in the regard. There seem to be less options for him out of his boomerang than his bombs, but I'm not very sure.

• He will try to spike you.

If you're off-stage, be wary about returning to the ledge, as Tinks are sometimes ready to Dair right next to it. This will spike quite reliably if you're caught in the hitbox. That being said, it's not something Tink will consistently try, as the lag on his Dair is probably the worst he can suffer from. If you catch him out on it, a simple ledge-drop, full jump, F-air should be a good punish. A get-up atack will do, too, but we need to be as stylish and efficient as possible. We won't get many chances in this MU.

• Up-smash. Don't sleep on it.

It's fast and it kills. If he whiffs an Up-smash, it's quite likely that he's baiting you. Use ranged options.

• F-Smash is a rare sight.

Don't expect to get many F-smash punishes. A good Tink won't throw many of those out (for obvious reasons). Be careful of Mixups, though. Be aware of the time Tink has to choose to use the second hit of Fsmash.

• Down-smash is godly.

It's hella scary, although can be punished if you're quick with your reactions. I recommend a grab-punish on this.

• Z-Air goes farther then you think it does

It's a fantastic pressure tool for Tinks, as they'll try and push you towards the edge using their Z-air. If we're stubborn enough, we can perfect shield and run right in to grab him.

• The Phantom. 's good. Use it.

A good spacing tool to use when retreating if Tink feels like being ballsy. It's also good to suck up the hits from the boomerang and please, PLEASE remember that if he tries to run at you when it's out, he'll be slowed down by it, which can possibly confuse them. They'll sometimes dash attack or grab too early. Be ready for this.

• Naryu's Love is... okay.

Don't abuse it. I know that's a general rule, but especially in this matchup. If you throw it out too often, it's a free invitation for him to combo us until the dusk is dawn. Use this in the place of a bomb grab as a mix up.

• Din's Fire is almost useless.

When he's on the stage, his shield will do the work for him. He just won't give a damn about it. Of course, off stage, it's the same as always. Use it sparingly and don't get too obvious with it.

• Farore's Wind is useful

It will kill Tink fairly early (I think about 75%-85%) is where he'll be killed by it. Try not to use it to punish him throwing out projectiles too much. His lag isn't long enough for that to really work without prediction. Don't do it on reaction.

• His recovery is a little lacking. Use D-air.

His tether-recovery will allow you to intercept and spike him if you read it correctly. His Up-B does seem to have a lot of priority, but it's not a threat if you're directly above it with a fierce kick ready for him.

I'd say more, but I'm running on 1 and a half hour sleep, I have school tomorrow and my hands hurt.
In my opinion, this matchup goes something like:

6:4

 

[Fuji'n]

Zelda vs Mario 45:55




Zelda vs Rosalina 49:51


Zelda vs Bowser Jr. 5:5*short discussion*

M E S S

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ Fuji'n girl you know you like that 49:51 don't deny it lol

i hope some toonies will pop in to further our discussions

 

[r_greening1]

All I know is that Toon Link makes me want to cry.

TOON LINK PLZ STAHP

 

[|ven|]

Toon Link is an easy MU gorls ;o;. You honestly just have to read his projectiles and get around them, my favorite is to read their boomerang/bomb/projectiles throw and teleport in. They also fall very easily into all of zelda's combos. Not to mention they are easilly gimped.

 

[ILJ]

Toon Link main here coming from the toon link forums to help out:

Definitely watch out for all projectiles. His bombs combo into nair and at higher percents fair so he is guaranteed for the most part 12% -17% every bomb hit. Powershield projectiles to close the distance and dont let him zone you obviously - easier said then done. Use your side-b every now and then as they go through his projectiles. At higher percents his back throw will kill - beware of it, expect it. Also his u-tilt juggles at low percents and and mid percents can provide very good follow up into up airs, nair, back air, so expect the follow-up. For the most part play it patiently, blocking all projectiles as they add up damage easily and quickly, and do your thing :].

 

[Scamper52596]

Hey, Zelda mains! I'll do what I can to help you with the match up.

Going against a good T'link can be difficult, but it's far from an impossible task to beat us. Do your best to play defensively and patiently. Zelda may have Nayru's Love to reflect our projectiles, but keep in mind to be smart when using it. If you keep throwing it out there, a good Toon Link will start to bait it for his own follow ups. I'd suggest using it at a distance while we throw projectiles to give us no choice but to come to you. Also use it to keep us out if we're up too close attempting to pressure you. Power shield the projectiles at a mid range. Also throwing our bombs back at us if you get the chance won't hurt. Figuring out the best way to negate the Toon Link's projectile game is key to finding victory in this match up because without it he'll be more prone to choosing poor options and making mistakes, which you need to take advantage of. It'll take practice.

As I'm sure you know, be careful when using Farore's Wind. It'll be a good option to catch a Toon Link off guard when he chooses an attack that will lag and leave him vulnerable. It will K.O. pretty early if you catch him with an Elevator. Of course it can backfire easily if you use it at the wrong time. Din's Fire and the Phantom Knight will be okay options when Toon Link finds himself off stage. Try to predict how he's going to get back on stage for a better chance at catching him in one of those attacks. Zelda's Dash Attack can cover our landings pretty well too, as well as using it to punish us while pulling a bomb/throwing a boomerang too close. Of course you can try going for an Up Air, or one of your Lightning Kicks if you're feeling lucky. They'll both K.O. relatively early. Speaking of which, don't be afraid to go for the spike if he recovers low. Just be cautious of Tink's own aerials if you try to approach him in the air, namely his Front Air and Neutral Air. Do all of this to secure stage control. Toon Link can't do much without it because he relies heavily on controlling space.

That's basically the gist of it. Force us to make mistakes and force us to choose options that will lag, practice keeping our projectiles out, make sure you maintain stage control, and as a general rule make sure you know your character. Best combos, punishes, options for reads, etc. Chances are if you know your character better than your opponent knows their character, you'll come out on top. Good luck to you all.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Another matchup I don't know much about because I haven't come into contact with many if any good ones (I consider 1 out of every 100 people I face actually good, and that might be stretching it) so I cannot give much information other than the fact that if you let them get careless with their projectiles, you can easily punish. He's a bit harder to gimp than regular Link, but he's lighter so it works out. Being very defensive and patient is what works out best, just deny him his projectiles, and don't get caught by his smashes and you'll be fine. Oddly enough I land the Lightning Kicks against him for my kills half the time when they never land for anyone else, probably just a coincidence. I'm not going to give out a ratio but it's definitely closer to even than not. Toon Link has never scared me, but he's still decent.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Well I play as toonlink mainly, and the really good zelda players are hard to fight for me.

It's mainly her 2 moves:

1.) Reflector:
Its hard to punish (atleast online) because it starts fast, ends fast, and can be used back-to-back. Its a great "get off me" move and makes zelda a challenge/nightmare to fight up close.

2.) Teleport:
Zelda's up B move is INSANELY fast in my opinion and is one of the things I fear the most against good zelda players. Anytime toonlink is in the air, Zelda's Up B is dangerous because we cant usually land and shield in time unlink Link because we get a lot of landing lag. I have yet to air dodge this attack, and even when I know its coming, if I make the mistake of being in the air trying to land toonlink is sorta helpless to this move.

Mix these 2 attacks smartly with a lot of power shielding and I feel zelda can dominate this match (atleast in FG).

 

[Seki_]

Toon Link vs Zelda...okay

So as a Toon Link once told me bow Isn't a projectile that TL should use to zone. Bombs and Boomerangs should get respect from any character, Including Zelda. As far as approaching the neutral goes, Zelda might prefer stages with more platforms than she traditionally likes, for a number of reasons. Well first I should say that Zelda and Toon Link share the ability to rack on a lot of damage. Toon Link has killthrows, and Zelda's televator will kill early due to TL being relatively light. In terms of up close game, both characters have their bread and butter at their disposal. TL's nair from what I understand is a good oos option, and Zelda should anticipate his recovery with her usual punishes and combos. Toon Link will use and abuse Zelda's bad approach game, which goes back to the stage choice I mentioned. Without going into details, stages with platforms (except for battlefield obvs), and taking stages with low ceilings is a risk/reward. I could go into so much detail about how close this MU is, but I'll just round it off by saying that Toon Link has 5 or 6 kill options on Zelda, whereas Zelda has 3 at most.

45:55

 

[Berserker.]

We wanna discuss the Zelda match up because reasons.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-match-up-thread-zelda-stomps-on-shulk.401185/

Onions

 

[JigglyZelda003]

alright gurls its time to talk about Samus and how annoying her slow roll is in lag. Samus feels easier to deal with now just a bit. she's still heavy and camp central but outside of charge shot still can't kill well so I'm gona say evenish for now. I've yet to fight a sm4sh Samus that really knew what she was doing

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Yay, Samus. I originally intended on maining her as I felt she was better than in Brawl, but I quickly noticed she has trouble against most the cast like before.

Camping is easy to deal with for Zelda, but annoying. You can honestly dash and shield your way to her, and if they're sitting there spamming, you can just use Farore's Wind or Din's Fire when hiding behind a Phantom. The Phantom can become very useful in this matchup when used safely to cancel out projectiles and space well. One thing to not abuse is Nayru's Love, since they'll more than likely catch on to that quicker than your other options. If you whiff NL for whatever reason, expect to be hit with a Charge Shot.

Tracking Samus can be annoying. Her roll is long and slow, and her floatiness in the air (how is she so floaty in that suit of all things?) makes it harder to land certain aerials since you fall faster than her if I remember correctly. She's an easy target, you just have to adapt to her awkwardness. The only moves you really need to watch out for are a well timed Charge Shot, Utilt by the ledge, and Bair. Oh, and make sure you're never in range for the sweetspot on her Fsmash. I'm going to assume the ratio is 60:40, unless a good Samus comes along and makes me think otherwise.

 

[Zylach]

As a Samus secondary user, I can safely say that Zelda owns this MU. The only thing Samus has going for her here is her air game which isn't even that much better than Zelda's to be honest. It's only a tad better because of zair. Samus' fair is easy to fall out of and comes with a lot of landing lag, her nair is garbage, her dair also comes with a lot of landing lag, her bair has to be sweetspotted in order to do anything. Her uair is her bread & butter aerial since it's a mutlihit and has next to no landing lag allowing her to act immediately out of it usually with a jab or dtilt.

Samus' ground game is perhaps the worst in the game and this is where Zelda excels. Just be careful about when to approach and when to force Samus to approach, because we can totally do that with phantom and din's, since a poorly timed din's will see us get a charge shot to the face. When up close, Zelda's shield is her best friend since Samus' grab is slower than most though she does has reliable combos out of throws so don't treat this like a Mac fight. All of Samus' everything is punishable. We can punish ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, missiles, morph ball bombs, screw attack, and the infamous jab 2. Whiffed grabs should also be placed on this list since she has some of the highest endlag on whiffed grabs in the game.

Did I mention that Samus can't kill anything? She can kill with a sweetpotted (only sweetspotted) fsmash and bair fully charged charge shot which she should be wary about using against a reflector character. That's literally it. Dsmash and Usmash can't kill (Falling out of Samus' usmash is cake. It's worse than Zelda's usmash). I've heard that the tip of her ftilt can kill now if it's angled up but I've never gotten it so I wouldn't be worried. Other than offstage aerials, we have nothing to worry about. And, as for offstage aerials, they shouldn't be hitting us anyway because teleport recovery. The unfortunate thing is, we shouldn't be looking for dair kills on Samus because timing it against a screw attack is atrociously tricky plus Samus can mix up her recovery with her grapple beam.

I suppose the one thing that goes in Samus' favor is if the opponent doesn't tech properly. Samus gets charge shot kills by taking advantage of an opponent's get-up options. That's what ftilt was used for before it became weird in 1.0.6 since it often sent the opponent at such an angle that they usually couldn't tech the ground, then Samus could read the get-up to secure a charge shot kill. That's more difficult for her now since she has to space her ftilt closer to herself so the KB isn't as high.

Also, be wary of being below Samus when she is landing. Don't overcommit to a land trap usmash or fsmash until you're certain you'll hit it because Samus' bombs shift her momentum significantly. I had fun faking out a Pikachu last week like this and surprisingly won a set against him (He's a very good player and challenges my Zelda often).

I love Samus but she is so bad in this game. Tall, laggy, and unable to kill. I give this --> 60:40

With customs 55:45 just because of Relentless Missiles but Din's flare helps us a lot as well since default is terrible.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ouch Samus sold out by her own friends. how abusable is Zair now? Zair kind of shut Zelda out in Brawl especially with ledge camping shenanigans from Samus, is it just as good as brawl?

 

[Zylach]

Zair has some punishable landing lag on it now though landing with the first hitbox of it can lead into combos though Samus has to be really close to the opponent for this to be a thing. It still does hardly any damage too. Basically, if Zelda shields it, she can probably get in for a dash attack punish depending on how well the Samus spaced it. Typically, Samus' will retreat with a short hopped zair meaning, if they get too close to the ledge, they can't do it anymore and we can finally get in if they try to use a non-retreating zair. We should be able to FW in on landing lag too which is absolutely Samus' worst nightmare about this MU. Laggy projectiles and spacing options mean free teleport damage for us.

 

[BJN39]

ouch Samus sold out by her own friends. how abusable is Zair now? Zair kind of shut Zelda out in Brawl especially with ledge camping shenanigans from Samus, is it just as good as brawl?

Don't quote me on this, but I believe ZAir got slight damage reductions as well as now having landing lag...? I should go check it out or ask the Samuses.

 

[Zylach]

Zair does 1.5% non-tipper, 3% tipper and the Samus guide has it as 10 frames of landing lag with a question mark. It's definitely longer than that.

edit: They have the autocancel frame as 50 where the hitbox ends at frame 17. That's a ton of endlag.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Zair has massive landing lag? That's definitely not true. It has less than 10 frames of landing lag.

Samus can't kill? Also not true. She can also kill with up tilt and screw attack also. Her kill options are not bad. On that note up tilt is safe on shield when spaced well.

 

[meleebrawler]

Zair has massive landing lag? That's definitely not true. It has less than 10 frames of landing lag.

Samus can't kill? Also not true. She can also kill with up tilt and screw attack also. Her kill options are not bad. On that note up tilt is safe on shield when spaced well.

And a sourspotted Fsmash isn't that weak, especially against lightweight Zelda. Oh and bair too.

 

[Afro Smash]

Good things for Samus

• Zair has like no landing lag unless done out of an Airdodge, and honestly since Zelda lacks approach options it kinda bodies her.
• We can pester with Missiles to force shields or better yet Nayru's Love, which opens Zelda up for Grabs, from which we have Down Throw Combos.
• Since Zelda has no good approach options and is fairly easily walled by zair, they will often resort to using Farore's Wind to close gaps and punish the end lag on Missiles, so we need to be cautious at high percents, but similarly any Shielded Farore's Wind will led to an easy F-Smash or Charge Shot punish.
• Zelda's so slow that we can use our slow roll pretty safely
• We can punish Din's Fire with Charge Shot
• Weight Advantage

Good things for Zelda

• We're tall so sweetspotting lightning Kicks is pretty easy honestly
• You have a teleport recovery which makes edgeguarding virtually impossible (outside of ledge trumps) and off stage is usually where Samus can pick up a lot of kills
• Better up close options than us (though this is true of most if not all of the cast)
• Reflector that can beat our Dash Attack as well as our projectiles
• Your Aerials may be laggy but so is our Grab so it's not always easy to punish them

Overall I'd prolly say MU is 50/50, maybe slightly in either parties favour if people can raise some more points

 

[Zylach]

The thing about Samus' utilt is that it can be teched so it's absolutely not a reliable kill move and it's also fairly slow to come out. Plus, it's choreographed pretty obviously. It also kills fairly late. Screw attack has the same problem of killing terribly late unless it's used close to the top blast zone. A grounded screw attack struggles to kill at even 150% depending on the stage. I'll admit that Samus can counterpick stages against Zelda very effectively though. Delfino, Battlefield, and Halberd all work very much in Samus' favor thanks to her guaranteed uair combos that can finish in a screw attack kill that Zelda can't challenge. However, on all other stages, this isn't nearly as possible.

I'll admit I thought Zair's landing lag was at least 11 frames long but without a capture card, I can't tell as well as others. According to the Samus guide I read, it has a lot of endlag though with the hitbox ending at frame 17 and autocancelling at 50. Is that info wrong? Basically, if Samus doesn't land at or a little later than frame 17, then all frames until ~frame 50 she'll be completely vulnerable. I also don't get how zair can "body" Zelda when shield exists. Zelda just has to know that zair is a thing and hold up shield when she's within range of it. She can't be outspaced with it forever and it only does 3% when tipped so getting hit by it at max range isn't that bad even if it happens often.

Pestering with missiles worked when Samus could missile cancel. Now, they are so laggy that Zelda should be able to FW every single attempt at a missile.

I'll admit Samus' roll is long enough that Zelda can't punish it as effectively as a lot of the cast but that doesn't mean she can't. Samus gets points here for her roll but not a ton.

Samus can punish din's with charge shot. I completely agree. Din's is not safe here if Samus is at full charge.

Yes, Samus is heavy but Zelda doesn't have trouble against heavies, especially ones that are tall like Samus since she can elevator them at 80% for a kill. Meanwhile, Samus struggles to kill even at high percents like 120% where everyone should be able to kill save for characters like Sheik and Pika. Zelda's light but she's no Mewtwo or Jiggles. Samus absolutely won't be killing Zelda as early as Zelda kills Samus.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Sorry up tilt is a kill move against aerial targets where it doesn't meteor and is really strong.

According to the Samus guide I read, it has a lot of endlag though with the hitbox ending at frame 17 and autocancelling at 50. Is that info wrong? Basically, if Samus doesn't land at or a little later than frame 17, then all frames until ~frame 50 she'll be completely vulnerable.

Auto cancelling means that's when you can land with the move to receive no lag. So if Samus lands before frame 50 she'll get the 10ish frames of landing lag.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good things for Samus

• Zair has like no landing lag unless done out of an Airdodge, and honestly since Zelda lacks approach options it kinda bodies her.
• We can pester with Missiles to force shields or better yet Nayru's Love, which opens Zelda up for Grabs, from which we have Down Throw Combos.
• Since Zelda has no good approach options and is fairly easily walled by zair, they will often resort to using Farore's Wind to close gaps and punish the end lag on Missiles, so we need to be cautious at high percents, but similarly any Shielded Farore's Wind will led to an easy F-Smash or Charge Shot punish.
• Zelda's so slow that we can use our slow roll pretty safely
• We can punish Din's Fire with Charge Shot
• Weight Advantage

Good things for Zelda

• We're tall so sweetspotting lightning Kicks is pretty easy honestly
• You have a teleport recovery which makes edgeguarding virtually impossible (outside of ledge trumps) and off stage is usually where Samus can pick up a lot of kills
• Better up close options than us (though this is true of most if not all of the cast)
• Your Aerials may be laggy but so is our Grab so it's not always easy to punish them

Overall I'd prolly say MU is 50/50, maybe slightly in either parties favour if people can raise some more points

The main things that really bug Samus in this matchup is that she can easily get Farore'd if she's careless
with missiles (even relentless ones) and the usual risk of charge shot being reflected. But Nayru's love can be
baited and punished relatively easily. Samus's close combat game is also better than given credit for.

Her jab may often be ridiculed for not always linking, but the first hit is faster than anything Zelda has, and she's
outranged and outsped in general. It's often a misconception that Samus can't fight up close which is not the
case. She can definitely go toe-to-toe with Zelda even if her moves are more potent.

And if is in a situation where not autocanceling grappling beam gets her punished against Zelda, she
probably royally messed up her spacing anyway.

 

[Afro Smash]

Honestly you just need to use Zair in training mode to see that we can easily put out another hitbox after Zairing before Zelda could get close, especially since Zair is 2 hits forcing you to stay in shield until we land. And yes whilst you can Shield we don't have to just Zair forever we can and will mix it with F-Tilt to catch you dropping shield and appraoching or grabbing you out of shield.

Missiles aren't so laggy that they can be easily punished, punishing on reaction to a single missile is very difficult, and at kill percents we have little reason to be using Missiles anyway

Other stuff i generally agree with (apart from Up Tilt which Shado explained) but a Samus that knows how to use her Charge Shot can reliably pick up kills at around 90%

 

[Zylach]

Sorry up tilt is a kill move against aerial targets where it doesn't meteor and is really strong.


Auto cancelling means that's when you can land with the move to receive no lag. So if Samus lands before frame 50 she'll get the 10ish frames of landing lag.

I actually don't see this use of utilt very often (I actually never thought of using myself either. Maybe now my Samus will get better). In that case, what percents does this kill on certain weights? How does it affect Samus' hurtbox? For example, against moves that extend hurtboxes, I often wanna use Nayru's Love to catch the extended hurtbox with a disjointed, invulnerable hitbox of my own. Another example, if a Mario uses a nair as Samus' leg sweeps down, will the two moves trade and kill Mario if he's at a high enough percent?

Also, it seems I just read the autocancelling data wrong then. What's the FAF on zair then? Let's assume Samus doesn't land during zair and wants to cover herself with another zair (Let's say she wanted to hit a falling opponent with zair, zair gets airdodged, uses zair again, lands with it to autocancel). I know a lot of characters that are really short are difficult to hit with Zair so a SH zair will be crouched under and I'll be hit before even hitting the ground (I'm thinking of Pika who's short and super fast).

The main things that really bug Samus in this matchup is that she can easily get Farore'd if she's careless
with missiles (even relentless ones) and the usual risk of charge shot being reflected. But Nayru's love can be
baited and punished relatively easily. Samus's close combat game is also better than given credit for.

Her jab may often be ridiculed for not always linking, but the first hit is faster than anything Zelda has, and she's
outranged and outsped in general. It's often a misconception that Samus can't fight up close which is not the
case. She can definitely go toe-to-toe with Zelda even if her moves are more potent.

And if is in a situation where not autocanceling grappling beam gets her punished against Zelda, she
probably royally messed up her spacing anyway.

I agree that Samus' close combat game isn't as terrible as a lot of people say but it's still pretty bad since jab 1 is her only quick, nearly unpunishable grounded close-combat attack. Dtilt is pretty quick but easy to punish if it's shielded and her utilt is too slow, punishable, and techable. Meanwhile her smash attacks are laughably punishable. Also, I think Zelda's dtilt should put her hurtbox below Samus' jab 1 and Zelda will be using dtilt often when she's in a close-combat situation since it's her fastest move. I believe it comes out on frame 5 and Samus' jab 1 comes out on frame 3 you've definitely got us there. I dunno if Zelda would be crouched by frame 3 and possibly unhittable by jab 1 anyway.

One thing you mentioned is that Zelda is outranged and outsped by Samus but this simply isn't true. The two are actually fairly even when it comes to speed of attacks (Samus does outrun Zelda though). Zelda's dtilt comes out on frame 5, utilt on frame 7, jab on 11, ftilt on 12, fsmash on 16, dsmash on 5, usmash on 9. Samus' jab 1 comes out on frame 3, ftilt on frame 8, dtilt on 6, utilt on 15, fsmash on 10, dsmash on 9, and usmash on 11. Samus has some decent range on tilts, especially ftilt but Zelda has the disjoints as well as good range herself. Zelda's fsmash should outrange all of Samus' ground attacks and is also disjointed, same with ftilt. Zelda could also through out a non-charged phantom that outranges everything Samus has besides zair and comes out on frame 11. As for Samus' projectiles, they're easy to shield, punish, and can be reflected. Plus, phantom can eat them. Granted, Zelda's projectile game is not really much better so I don't think this would even be a huge part of the MU in terms of who gets out-camped by projectiles.

Good to know more about zair though. I have to work on it still.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

As a Samus secondary user, I can safely say that Zelda owns this MU. The only thing Samus has going for her here is her air game which isn't even that much better than Zelda's to be honest. It's only a tad better because of zair.

Samus is not poor on the ground. You would be surprised how Samus can really catch you off guard here. While zair is good versus Zelda, this only helps when Zelda is at the same Altitude. When Zelda is above, she is relatively easy pickings. If Samus is above, she can be easily beat with Zelda's up smash catching a falling up air, dair, etc.

Samus' fair is easy to fall out of and comes with a lot of landing lag, her nair is garbage, her dair also comes with a lot of landing lag, her bair has to be sweetspotted in order to do anything. Her uair is her bread & butter aerial since it's a mutlihit and has next to no landing lag allowing her to act immediately out of it usually with a jab or dtilt.

While Samus' aerials do have a lot of landing lag, most good Samus players will not land with their laggy aerials, so don't expect to punish many of these. Nair is bad, but do watch out for it off and near the ledge. It is fast, and can kill when fair won't. Bair with sweetspot is definitely more potent than without, but don't underestimate it as it is more than likely to knock foes offstage with or without sweetspot.

We can punish ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, missiles, morph ball bombs, screw attack, and the infamous jab 2. Whiffed grabs should also be placed on this list since she has some of the highest endlag on whiffed grabs in the game.

On hit, on whiff, or on shield? Either way, on whiff or on shield, a good majority of these are punishable. However, punishing f-tilt is tough without the Samus misspacing or without Zelda powershielding. Hell, that's how it is for most of these. Retreating bombs are not easy for Zelda to adequately punish since Zelda is rather slow. But if Samus isn't far enough away, then Zelda can punish.

Did I mention that Samus can't kill anything?

Wrong.

The thing about Samus' utilt is that it can be teched so it's absolutely not a reliable kill move and it's also fairly slow to come out. Plus, it's choreographed pretty obviously. It also kills fairly late. Screw attack has the same problem of killing terribly late unless it's used close to the top blast zone. A grounded screw attack struggles to kill at even 150% depending on the stage. I'll admit that Samus can counterpick stages against Zelda very effectively though. Delfino, Battlefield, and Halberd all work very much in Samus' favor thanks to her guaranteed uair combos that can finish in a screw attack kill that Zelda can't challenge. However, on all other stages, this isn't nearly as possible.

You can only tech an utilt if you are also on the ground. If you are in the air, it knocks you away with pretty strong knock back. It is a super reliable kill move, catching people off of ledge, misspacing aerial approachs, or getting read on an approach or roll. The start up lag is also not easily reacted to so don't expect to avoid it entirely. Screw attack can kill Zelda better than most of the cast, since she is so floaty. Killing at 150% is possible at Duck Hunt, but it is most likely going to kill earlier at stages with lower ceilings so don't count it out.

Pestering with missiles worked when Samus could missile cancel. Now, they are so laggy that Zelda should be able to FW every single attempt at a missile.

Zelda has to be on point when reacting to the missile or else she might miss the timing on the punish. Also, if Samus is able to shield in time, then a heavy punish can be expected.

Yes, Samus is heavy but Zelda doesn't have trouble against heavies, especially ones that are tall like Samus since she can elevator them at 80% for a kill. Meanwhile, Samus struggles to kill even at high percents like 120% where everyone should be able to kill save for characters like Sheik and Pika. Zelda's light but she's no Mewtwo or Jiggles. Samus absolutely won't be killing Zelda as early as Zelda kills Samus.

I disagree that Zelda can sill Samus earlier than Samus can kill Zelda. Zelda players too liberal with kill moves can easily be punished with one of Samus' own kill moves. Both characters will definitely have trouble killing if both players aren't too committal, but Zelda always has to be close enough, and Samus still has charge shot for surprise kills.

To add to anything not stated before, I feel as if Samus is actually pretty good at edge guarding Zelda. If Zelda does not snap to ledge after FW, then she can expect to be hit with a charged shot. Even if zelda tries to recover with FW and hit Samus, we can easily just shield and wait for Zelda to either hit our shield or snap to the ledge. If zelda hits our shield, we can up b oos, or fsmash if zelda didn't land with FW on the ground.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

To add to anything not stated before, I feel as if Samus is actually pretty good at edge guarding Zelda. If Zelda does not snap to ledge after FW, then she can expect to be hit with a charged shot. Even if zelda tries to recover with FW and hit Samus, we can easily just shield and wait for Zelda to either hit our shield or snap to the ledge. If zelda hits our shield, we can up b oos, or fsmash if zelda didn't land with FW on the ground.

...But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

...But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.

True.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Why am I seeing scores like 60:40 and 65:35 in Zelda's favor?

I'll admit I don't have a ton of experience vs good Samus players, but 60:40 would mean (according to MUs already discussed) that Zelda has a stronger advantage over Samus than Mario has over Zelda. And 65:35 would be on par with what many posters scored Sheik vs Zelda -- I cannot see Zelda dominating the MU like Sheik dominates the MU against us. EDIT: 65:35 is also on par with, or better according to some posts, Little Mac's MU advantage against Zelda. LOL at Zelda dominating Samus like Little Mac dominates us.

Samus has good range with some quick attacks that can be difficult for Zelda to punish because our slow movement speed, and if the Samus respects Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind by being careful with their projectile usage, it can be difficult for Zelda to get in. And if the Samus takes the % lead, this can definitely make approaching a chore. Samus' sweet-spotted Fsmash is decently powerful, and if we're baited into using Nayru's a charge shot will also end us fairly early. Unless we perfectly predict their projectile usage, they can shield on reaction and punish us for teleporting.

Zelda has better KO power, but her strongest moves -- her LKs and FW -- require good reads and punishes, but getting in close enough to use these can be a hassle.

Nayru's and the Phantom can stop her projectiles so if we're careful, we can make her approach as long as we have the % lead.

Overall I think the more patient player and the player who gets the better reads will win this match. I don't see, from my experience, any significant advantage for either side. Maybe it's 45:55 or 55:45 at most, but it's somewhere around even in my opinion. Definitely not 60:40/40:60 or higher for any side.

...But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.

Oops :D

 

[Xygonn]

Zair does 1.5% non-tipper, 3% tipper and the Samus guide has it as 10 frames of landing lag with a question mark. It's definitely longer than that.

edit: They have the autocancel frame as 50 where the hitbox ends at frame 17. That's a ton of endlag.

I'm assuming you are looking at my guide. The zair frame data is from dantarion's dump so I looked for the typical flags. The flags on zair are kinda weird so I'm not sure what the autocancel window really is. The landing lag of zair is very short if you don't use it to cancel an air dodge. If you do air dodge before it it has the airdodge landing lag of 22 frames. The in air lag of zair is definitely super long. If you throw out a zair high up, you have to wait forever to do something else afterwards.

I don't actually have the FAF, but it is not bad to assume the FAF is close to the first autocanceled frame. Shado already sortof explained it. But basically if you can get to your autocancel frame before landing you don't suffer landing lag, you just get a normal landing (Shado basically already said this).

I'm not the best player so I can't say too much about the matchup for really good players. Both characters have a hard time making the other one approach seriously. Charging up charge shot is the best thing to do in neutral, zelda doesn't have anything fast enough to catch samus off guard. Din's fire is a joke that will make you eat a CS. Phantom isn't long enough range. I wouldn't want to shoot a missile because of farore. I wouldn't shoot a CS because of nayru. Zelda just generally doesn't have a great approach game because she is slow and everything can just be shielded to upb OoS. A perfectly spaced rising fair is like the only thing zelda can do that is safe on shield. Samus can at least cross up shields with dash attack and uair because you guys have that trashy frame 10 grab (I know ours is even slower, but it is a tether).

 

[Zylach]

I'll update my original score to reflect some new perspectives however, without specific numbers regarding KB and FAF data, I still feel like Zelda has a strong advantage here.

Defaults 60:40
Customs55:45
I honestly can't see how this MU could be even. I wish there was video of this MU between really skilled players like Nairo and ChozoX for instance.

 

[Fluidityt]

I'll update my original score to reflect some new perspectives however, without specific numbers regarding KB and FAF data, I still feel like Zelda has a strong advantage here.

Defaults 60:40
Customs55:45
I honestly can't see how this MU could be even. I wish there was video of this MU between really skilled players like Nairo and ChozoX for instance.

I've never thought of Zelda as a difficult MU, and would gladly take her over half the cast anyday. It's extremely easy to dodge your bomb thingies, and the ghost knight thingy. As long as the Samus is defensive, this is at worst an even matchup. Ftilt spam typically gets me in, and all it takes is one dash attack or grab and we have the lead. Now you *have* to approach us, otherwise we can just time you out and GG. Getting back on board is too easy, even on FD.

And if nobody approaches, ever, its much easier to dodge bomb thingy, teleport, and ghost knight, than it is to dodge missiles and CS.

And yes, Zair and Fair wreck your aerial approaches, and yes, your bair and utilt will definitely leave a mark if we screw up (metaphorically and literally)


As a bit of not-irony, both of alternate forms are high tier, whereas we are both low tier. And the Shiek / ZSS matchup is pretty even too. Except shiek is supposed to be strong canonically, and ZSS is supposed to be weak. whereas zelda is weak and Samus is strong >.<() Sigh. Itd be like Zelda kicking 10x more ass than Shiek.


EDIT: Apparently I don't know how to spell Sheik