A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

You can also poke at max range with Firebreath and not be punished at all. Just a thought.

 

[MrEh]

Firebreath is not a viable move in high level play and will be SDI punished.

Wrong. Fire is a terrible damage racking tool. It is a good spacing tool.

EDIT: ninja'd

It usually does similar damage if not more than what Bowser can do.

If you're not doing 30% with each of your grabs, then you are doing it wrong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like to know what dumb thing G&W is doing at the spacing at which Firebreath is in fact not punishable. Sounds very unlikely if you ask me, since his focus is a lot about safely pressuring and poking Bowser to death, and then proceed to trap Bowser into juggles and edgeguards. And besides, the effects of good SDI for even just a split second can be pretty massive.

idk what you're trying to say in the other statement, the point is Bowser's GR really doesn't net him spectacular damage. Other characters can do stuff from a grab that also easily and rather safely sets up into stuff that can do just as respectable damage, if not possibly more in some cases, and only tether characters and Ganondorf really have a worse grab than Bowser does.

 

[B!squick]

You'd be surprised what you can accomplish with 10 frames. DTilt kills most characters at just over 100%.

 

[MrEh]

I'd like to know what dumb thing G&W is doing at the spacing at which Firebreath is in fact not punishable.

It's called spacing back.

idk what you're trying to say in the other statement, the point is Bowser's GR really doesn't net him spectacular damage.

Speak for yourself. If you're not doing outrageous damage with the grab, then you need to practice more.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt kills at that percent assuming no DI, which will happen on reaction from a GR at least.

MrEh, virtually any character can do a ton of damage from a grab provided they know options. What makes Bowser's GR so much better that it warrants the huge risk? Guaranteed combos are cool, but smart players can make damage off of good setups virtually guaranteed regardless, and it's not like Bowser is even clearly winning damage off a grab setup. G&W for example can feasibly be looking at dealing over 40% with an intelligent followup from U-throw with N-air/U-air juggles, while Bowser can only realistically do that if he's lucky enough to get an across the stage GR CG and manages to get a Jab Klaw.

 

[B!squick]

Speak for yourself. If you're not doing outrageous damage with the grab, then you need to practice more.

Yeah, have you seen that Gaston, fella? He also does mad tech chases with aerial DownB.

@A2ZOMG: Again, you have 10 frames of an advantage over all but 3 characters, 2 of which you have a 20 frame advantage. If you'll look at even just our frame topic alone, that's alot of options.

 

[MrEh]

Assuming no DI.

You keep assuming that Bowser will constantly shoot fire. Read this again...

You can also poke at max range with Firebreath and not be punished at all. Just a thought.

Although it's not specified, when a Bowser player "pokes" with Fire, they generally shoot fire for the shortest amount of time possible. I figured you would know this, considering you use Bowser.

MrEh, virtually any character can do a ton of damage from a grab provided they know options. What makes Bowser's GR so much better that it warrants the huge risk?

Simple. Every character can do damage from a grab by knowing options and predicting. The problem with that is this: the damage is not guaranteed.

With enough practice, outrageous damage from Bowser's grab release is guaranteed. (except against Zelda, DK, and Yoshi)

Yeah, have you seen that Gaston, fella? He also does mad tech chases with aerial DownB.

Bowser Bomb is a useless move in theory. Which is why it's extremely difficult to explain to people why the move is useful in certain situations.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You keep assuming that Bowser will constantly shoot fire. Read this again...


Although it's not specified, when a Bowser player "pokes" with Fire, they generally shoot fire for the shortest amount of time possible. I figured you would know this, considering you use Bowser.

It's still punishable. It requires technical skill definitely, but I'm saying, the effects of good SDI are massive even for a brief period of time.

Simple. Every character can do damage from a grab by knowing options and predicting. The problem with that is this: the damage is not guaranteed.

With enough practice, outrageous damage from Bowser's grab release is guaranteed. (except against Zelda, DK, and Yoshi)

It's less prediction and more playing smart when you talk about good setups and followup options, which in the case of vs G&W, he is quite good at this. Many characters can go for damage that is virtually guaranteed if they don't screw up. What does being guaranteed do to make this really significantly better? Marginally less risk? The effect is not amazingly significant.

Bowser Bomb is a useless move in theory. Which is why it's extremely difficult to explain to people why the move is useful in certain situations.

Yeah, it's good against people who make dumb mistakes and commit too much to linear juggling strats. Or you can get away with it if you ledge cancel it. Still shouldn't actually hit anyone.

 

[MrEh]

It's still punishable. It requires technical skill definitely, but I'm saying, the effects of good SDI are massive.

Have fun SDI'ing all the way through like 3 hits and reacting fast enough to do so. Is it possible? Of course it is. It's hilarious to imagine someone doing it consistently in an actual match though. At max range, Fire is a pro spacing tool. Unpunishable? No. Still good? Yes.

What does being guaranteed do to make this really significantly better? The effect is not amazingly significant.

Simple. If you're playing against a player smarter then yourself, then non-guaranteed followups are less likely work. They will know your options, and they will do everything in their power to limit them, or to outsmart you.

When something is guaranteed, all of that is moot. Their only option is to accept it or attempt to break your concentration.

Still shouldn't actually hit anyone.

If you really think that it's most likely to hit from an overexerted juggle, you're mistaken.

Most of the time I hit with a Bowser Bomb, I'm in the air and my opponent is grounded. How is this possible? Dickspeed.

 

[B!squick]

On another note, does anyone else see how a G&W DTilt from the platform above the ledge limits Bowser's recovery in any way, shape, or form?

 

[Cassius.]

Jay, that change wasn't really necessary <_<


I'm trying to figure out what the problem is. The Grab Release is a factor in Bowser's game, and fortunately he does have guaranteed setups on most characters. It's better than what some characters have considering all the work they have to put out to get a hit on their enemies. Yes, we know the grab is bad, but when you get it, you can expect (at low %s) to either get damaged racked on for as far as the grab will take Bowser OR (at higher %s) to be killed. You can assume DI but if I hit you with a GR DTilt at the EDGE of FD, or an unstaled FAir from an Air Release, what good will it do? Most of Bowser's extreme kill moves are used for only that purpose.

Bowser Bomb is lol.

@Jay I think A2 is trying to say the DTilt removes the option of jumping up from the ledge is removed due to DTilt, so the only option [apparently] would be to roll or just get up. So, GW can predict that and drop down and smash on reaction or whatever. Let me just say that there's more that Bowser can do on the ledge than just ledge getups and rolls...lol. I wouldn't even bother using Bowser's ledge attacks since they're so easy to powershield, but he has more options than that...just a few more.

Realistically, DTilting on a platform Bowser will never come near to is a bit useless though. :/

 

[A2ZOMG]

Simple. If you're playing against a player smarter then yourself, then non-guaranteed followups are less likely work. They will know your options, and they will do everything in their power to limit them, or to outsmart you.

Good traps, such as G&W's U-air juggles are hard enough to avoid to the point where it basically doesn't matter in high level play. You get put into the trap, and your options are limited enough that the other player is capable of covering all of them for virtually guaranteed damage. It's the exact same principle for G&W's BF ledge trap against Bowser. Bowser cannot work around it without getting severely punished.

When something is guaranteed, all of that is moot. Their only option is to accept it or attempt to break your concentration.

Right, but Bowser isn't normally taking half your stock with this (depends a lot on forcing a non-guaranteed ground break anyway), and there is the problem of safely getting a grab due to its fail speed and ending lag. Jab canceling is mostly reliable minus the fact you usually have to take a step forward and hope it isn't spotdodged.

 

[B!squick]

Jay, that change wasn't really necessary <_<

It is true facts though. We have seemingly moved on to G&W, but it's A2ZOMG's theorycrafted G&W. And wow wee is it a doozy.

EDIT:

G&W's BF ledge trap against Bowser. Bowser cannot work around it without getting severely punished.

You mean with DTilt from the platform? How is that a trap? Bowser can easily get to the ledge and... well, what's G&W going to then? Stay there? Attempt to run out the clock? What?

 

[MrEh]

Bowser Bomb is lol.

Pretty much.

Right, but Bowser isn't normally taking half your stock with this (depends a lot on forcing a non-guaranteed ground break anyway)

Ground releases are guaranteed. If you aren't ground releasing when you want, then you need to practice more.

and there is the problem of safely getting a grab due to its fail speed and ending lag.

I never worry about ending lag because I never miss.

 

[B!squick]

OP updated.

 

[Cassius.]

A2, the release is guaranteed, although it depends on the time you pummel and the time the opponent is being released. You can pummel at a perfect rate to influence a ground release all of the time [I actually might be wrong on this, but Flayl made a detailed description about the pummel a while back]

Guys since the thread is so outdated, do you want to just restart and rediscuss all of the matchups again? Or should we just re-discuss all of the matchups that has A2 keeling over in anger because "Bowser is trash". I mean, we really should take advantage that a person has come to our boards and more specifically our matchup thread...lol

edit: wtf are you guys doing up so early... <_< I'm pretty sure it's like 3 AM in A2's time...do you not sleep? lmfao

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ground releases are guaranteed. If you aren't ground releasing when you want, then you need to practice more.

It depends on what frames the opponent mashes out on, so it's not guaranteed.

You mean with DTilt from the platform? How is that a trap? Bowser can easily get to the ledge and... well, what's G&W going to then? Stay there? Attempt to run out the clock? What?

It's a trap because anything Bowser does to get up will be punished. A trap is anything that limits your opponents options in a way that can put you in a favorable situation.

 

[MrEh]

It depends on what frames the opponent mashes out on, so it's not guaranteed.

No johns. You're just not trying hard enough.

A2, the release is guaranteed, although it depends on the time you pummel and the time the opponent is being released. You can pummel at a perfect rate to influence a ground release all of the time [I actually might be wrong on this, but Flayl made a detailed description about the pummel a while back

This.

Guys since the thread is so outdated, do you want to just restart and rediscuss all of the matchups again?

No. I say we just leave it. It's funnier this way.

 

[Cassius.]

If we leave it as is we'll probably get more A2ZOMG's to come in. I mean...we DO and HAVE re-discussed the matchups of Bowser. Some of us even gave our own matchup opinions a while back on every single character that we felt we had decent experience on.

Maybe we should just put all the matchups as 100:0 Bowser's favor [or maybe 0:100 " "'s favor] and see what we get; although that may be a bit less believable.

Jaydeth, I'm pretty sure A2ZOMG is a guy, lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5883883&postcount=2

The ending lag frames and the startup frames of the pummel allow aerial grab breaks, since hitstun only lasts a certain number of frames.

And I am nocturnal. I do a lot of my stuff at night. Furthermore girls don't exist on the internet.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Tbh I think we should discuss all the match up again, a lot of them are really outdated

 

[B!squick]

Guys. It's been, what, two plus years now? We're on PT. Or at least, we were. And you want to rediscuss when we haven't even made it through the whole cast yet? Granted, we're only missing the really low tiers at this point and they aren't as important as, say, MK, but we need to do them just the same.

I will submit to majority rule, though. If everyone wants to rediscuss characters now, starting with G&W I guess, that's fine. We really need a new chart while we're redoing things, too. :/

It's a trap because anything Bowser does to get up will be punished. A trap is anything that limits your opponents options in a way that can put you in a favorable situation.

Does FAir beat it? I'm not asking A2Z because he obviously wouldn't know, but does FAir beat G&W's DTilt? Also, I'm certain that letting go of the ledge, DJ, Fortress would beat DTilt. So no Admiral Akbar, it's not a trap.

every single character that we felt we had decent experience on

Pfft, noob. Don't you know anything about match-up discussions? Theorycraft > practical experience. Please leave your knowledge of what works and what doesn't at the door, sir.

 

[Liquid Gen]

whats the point of matchups anyway, it always boils down to hit them a lot and then win

sarsly guys, sarsly

 

[Bowser King]

I think, before we go anywhere else from here, is decide. Do we want to continue debating with A2ZOMG, go one-by-one on which matchups we need to re-discuss or continue and do the rest of the matchups.

 

[Cassius.]

We should just continue and do the matchups. We haven't even discussed every character--there's no purpose in restarting when we're close to the finish line.

 

[GreenFox]

Everything is outdated we should rediscuss but at a much more faster rate how would that be possible I have no clue.

 

[Alfa]

Everything is outdated we should rediscuss but at a much more faster rate how would that be possible I have no clue.

I vote we hijack other threads, go in and post something along the lines of 'Hey guys your Bowser matchup is outdated/wrong it's actually more like this:' give ratio + short synopsis of the matchup, then have another 2 Bowser mains come in and agree with the first one, thread successfully hijacked.

 

[GreenFox]

Sounds good alfa I really dont see why it takes like 3 months to do one matchup it should be a day max.

 

[B!squick]

Because it takes 3 months for someone to notice we're on a new character and then another 3 months for someone to post something meaningful. Durr.

 

[MrEh]

The ending lag frames and the startup frames of the pummel allow aerial grab breaks, since hitstun only lasts a certain number of frames.

What's your point? We know this already.

All that proves is that you can indeed force a ground release. (with good timing) If you can't do it, then you need to practice more.

I think, before we go anywhere else from here, is decide. Do we want to continue debating with A2ZOMG, go one-by-one on which matchups we need to re-discuss or continue and do the rest of the matchups.

Put every matchup down as 60-75.

Problem solved.

 

[B!squick]

Gaston has spoken, this noob concurs.

 

[Flayl]

If we really wanted to do the wrong thing and just get ratios for the whole cast we could make a thread, everybody puts their say in and just do an average. There, matchup chart that means absolutely nothing is complete.

 

[B!squick]

That's why we should do the right thing and actually discuss the rest of the cast.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

We could be really lazy and just post every threads matchup ratio on our thead and claim it as our own thoroughly and heavily discussed matchups. Just a thought.

 

[Cassius.]

I vote for doing it the wrong way.






not.



No, but seriously, can we bring life into this matchup thread again? It's pretty safe to say that it would have been left for dead if A2ZOMG hadn't come in and caused controversy among us.

Really, let's bring it back.

 

[GreenFox]

We should finish the charcters we have left and only rediscuss the ones that are obviously wrong so it wouldnt take 3 years to finish this :D

That being said did we finish the PT? discussion take what vex said and copy it into original post

Also who are we even doing now??

 

[Cassius.]

We're doing whoever that is left, lol. I wouldn't know because the thread has been dead for like ages.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

If we have a good writeup already for the Pokemon Trainer i suggest we stick it on the front page and move on to the next character. Sorry i can't help with that MU there are no PT mains here in the UK as of yet so i know little about the character and how the MU goes.

If we're going to continue the character's we haven't done yet can we move on to Yoshi, Samus or Ike, preferably Yoshi. Out of the characters we haven't done yet i have the most knowledge on the aforementioned three so i can provide a decent writeup for them.

 

[Cassius.]

I have a really good gist of Ike; there are quite a few good ones in New York. When we're done with Yoshi I can write up on Ike...but I thought we did Ike already? lol

We should move on to Yoshi. I know we haven't done him yet.