A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[GreenFox]

What do you mean fortress can be outspaced? you use it as a punisher OOS and you have invincibility frames I dont understand what your tryin to say even if his OOS options and grabs releases arent the best they sure are for the low tiers.

 

[Liquid Gen]

i think a2's credibility is lost due to the fact he sucks


**** it i spoiled it, sorry guys

 

[Mr. Escalator]

People suck. Most people suck at playing this game

Speak for yourself LOL.

I now main Bowser. I declare G&W vs Bowser is 6:4 in Game & Watch's favor, maybe 65:35 but still within ten points of what the first post has. As I use both characters my opinion is supreme.

 

[YagamiLight]

I now declare that I can play both Game & Watch and Bowser at a competent level and the match-up is at least 65:35 because Game and Watch shuts down Bowser. Yup. No chance.

Ike v Bowser is a complete blowout, though. Bowser just has to powershield everything. Don't even bother discussing this.

 

[GreenFox]

What about the strict cg ike has?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Ike's chaingrab, much like everything else Ike can do, is easily beaten by shield camping

(but only at high level play)

 

[A2ZOMG]

What do you mean fortress can be outspaced? you use it as a punisher OOS and you have invincibility frames I dont understand what your tryin to say even if his OOS options and grabs releases arent the best they sure are for the low tiers.

Tons of characters can simply just space in such a way that you can't Up-B out of shield to punish. It's not a reliable punisher against people with good spacing. Shieldgrabbing with Bowser is also difficult due to his grab being slow and not having particularly good range. With Mario, I can just fullhop B-air with relative impunity and there is virtually nothing Bowser can do about it. Fastfalled B-airs actually have a low enough frame advantage that Mario can BLOCK before Bowser can Up-B.

Mario has a better out of shield game that is faster and safer in low tiers, and he has a better OOS KO option than Bowser (Up-smash). Ness also has a better OOS game than Bowser in low tiers. Samus's OOS game is probably about as good as Bowser's, worse in some areas, better in others.

As stated, Bowser is clearly overrated on the current tier list. He's extremely predictable and can't do much of anything against people who know how to anti-air and poke correctly.

Speak for yourself LOL.

Hence why I strongly believe that the idea that people use personal experience as a basis for matchup theory is incredibly flawed for this game, since there are only a few players who represent the game correctly at high level play, which is what matchup theory is based on, and which is what players should AIM to improve themselves towards. This game is both easy to play and analyze, except most people simply suck, myself of course included.

 

[B!squick]

I have ridiculous mindgames and prediction skills

Dawww, please, don't be so modest.

instead of hiding behind your own personal ego and experience

For shame A2-I mean, Phiddlesticks.

Bowser cannot easily punish Mario's Up-B on BF with the platforms making it much easier to space Mario's Up-B safely

You'd be amazed at how well the Klaw Drop makes platforms seem like they're not even there.

Bowser has a ****ty grab, so his grab release doesn't come into play very easily. He doesn't kill you at extremely low percents with it either, he only does some more damage, which isn't nearly as rewarding as some of the other stuff people can do from grabs (combos, strings, **** setups into better kill moves).

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Fellow Bowzer mainers!
U cant win an argument against an ignorant man

 

[A2ZOMG]

You'd be amazed at how well the Klaw Drop makes platforms seem like they're not even there.

How is this relevant? The point is Bowser can't safely approach Mario with anything, specifically Klaw, since that will get him and his fat hurtbox anti-aired if the Mario player has good reaction. Even if Bowser say...airdodges the Up-B that Mario should be using, he's really not going to be punishing it easily on BF with all the platforms Mario can use to land on (which does include the top platform).

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Speak for yourself LOL.

I now main Bowser. I declare G&W vs Bowser is 6:4 in Game & Watch's favor, maybe 65:35 but still within ten points of what the first post has. As I use both characters my opinion is supreme.

When I played GnW, I was notable with him and I know how to play him at very high levels, I believe Bowser vs GnW is an even matchup on most neutrals.

I honestly don't like hearing theorycrafting when the theorycrafters cannot backup their statements IN GAME.

A2ZOMG, I've beaten Boss's Mario, what top Bowser have you beaten?

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Discussions full of fail aside, at least our humble bowzercave is at least seeing some activity! Hooray!

 

[KT Kasrani]

if it isnt vex. the bowser main.

 

[B!squick]

if it isnt vex. the bowser main.

... Kay. >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

When I played GnW, I was notable with him and I know how to play him at very high levels, I believe Bowser vs GnW is an even matchup on most neutrals.

I honestly don't like hearing theorycrafting when the theorycrafters cannot backup their statements IN GAME.

A2ZOMG, I've beaten Boss's Mario, what top Bowser have you beaten?

Stop avoiding the argument. Your practical experience of which random player you beat does not mean jack in a matchup discussion. Amazing players are amazing, but everyone has room to improve, since nobody plays perfectly (people on M2K and Ally's level probably come close) and we have to look beyond who we play against when discussing a matchup. The only thing that matters is the analysis of tools. Which you are NOT SUCCESSFULLY COUNTERING.

If all you want to hear me say is that I have not played a so-called top Bowser, I'lld admit to that. It doesn't mean anything. I still have logical basis for the matchup discuss because I understand and know how options work. If you cannot back up your understanding and knowledge of how options work, you have no place in a matchup discussion.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Fellow Bowzer mainers!
U cant win an argument against an ignorant man

He is probably avoiding the argument because he read my post and wised up.

 

[B!squick]

So... theorycraft > practical experience? How so?

 

[A2ZOMG]

So... theorycraft > practical experience? How so?

Only a few people actually play matchups correctly due to the huge lack of skill for this game compared to another competitive game like Melee. Characters with huge random gimmicks appear better in this game in practice when they own some random person who doesn't know how to react to them correctly. Ganondorf for example even today still randomly kicks peoples butts even though in reality he should never be winning any matchups except against other total garbage characters. Proper theorycrafting is better since it lets us explain what we should avoid, and how we can avoid it, and removes unnecessary mistakes from the equation, giving us a MUCH more objective view on how tools can be used.

 

[MrEh]

cool story bro

If all you want to hear me say is that I have not played a so-called top Bowser, I'lld admit to that. It doesn't mean anything. I still have logical basis for the matchup discuss because I understand and know how options work. If you cannot back up your understanding and knowledge of how options work, you have no place in a matchup discussion.

You know who shouldn't discuss matchups? People who suck.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You know who shouldn't discuss matchups? People who suck.

You can suck at a game but still understand it extremely well. Nothing is stopping you from learning data and options through testing and reading the vast amounts of stuff that has been collected on these boards. People who have logical arguments can and should participate in a discussion.

 

[MrEh]

You can suck at a game but still understand it extremely well. Nothing is stopping you from learning data and options through testing and reading the vast amounts of stuff that has been collected on these boards. People who have logical arguments can and should participate in a discussion.

But at the end of the day...

...you still suck.

 

[Flayl]

Guys I pretty much play with every character in the game in friendlies except Yoshi and Jigglypuff, so I'm absolutely correct when I say Bowser has an advantage over each and every one of them.

 

[Cassius.]

OK GUYS I MAIN EVERYONE IN THIS GAME, LET'S JUST THEORY CRAFT EVERY MATCHUP

DUDE BOWSER HAS A GRAB RELEASE ON EVERYONE WAT IT'S IN HIS FAVOR

Seriously A2 now you're just talking out of your ***. Theory-crafting can only take you so far man. I was willing to listen to your ideas up to a certain point but now it's just outrageous lol.

btw my caps statement was obvious sarcasm.

 

[GreenFox]

Stop avoiding the argument. Your practical experience of which random player you beat does not mean jack in a matchup discussion.

LOL Boss is a "random player" yeah right

 

[A2ZOMG]

But at the end of the day...

...you still suck.

Vex sucks. He got F-smashed by someone's Ike.

Everyone sucks. Except for that Ike player (who was M2K btw).

Logical reasoning is superior than stating which random player you beat or got beaten by, which none of you are making any attempt at.

 

[Liquid Gen]

rofl


youre all being trolled

****ing hard

ggs

 

[A2ZOMG]

LOL Boss is a "random player" yeah right

Prove that he's not a random player who is subject to error and lack of proper knowledge of a matchup. Also tell me if you would believe him if he came here and gave his opinion on whatever matchup.

You cannot site who you beat or lose to as an argument in a matchup discussion. You have to know why you won or lost to them, which means you have to actually know what you're talking about in the analysis of tools.

 

[Cassius.]

lol pro troll

 

[GreenFox]

Trolls don't try that hard and this is way off topic someone get it back I dont know much about the matchup so...

 

[Bowser King]

Yeah, guys, get back on discussion. No need to attack the person.

 

[B!squick]

Tell A2ZOMG to stop trolling then.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Vex sucks. He got F-smashed by someone's Ike.

It's easy to get fsmashed by Ike with Bowser, especially m2k's, but I also Fsmashed m2k, so I guess he sucks too?

Let the troll stay, hes creating activity for this board.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Man, M2K is a huge noobie

Everyone knows Bowser's fsmash is powershieldable on reaction (it's even on The Powershield List but that's apparently outdated now???)

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's easy to get fsmashed by Ike with Bowser, especially m2k's, but I also Fsmashed m2k, so I guess he sucks too?

You JUMPED RIGHT INTO IT. Seriously, where is your credibility?

And because you F-smashed M2K, are you going to say that your match experience is good representation of HOW A MATCHUP ACTUALLY WORKS?

You fail at logic. Step it up. Practical match experience is not a substitute for logical debate.

 

[Cassius.]

I feel like A2 only brought activity to the matchup thread. Although half of what he's saying is bull****, he does make a point...the matchup thread was inactive for about a month...maybe we should actually start re-discussing this (although, what CAN we discuss? It's Bowser.)

Meh, I dunno.

Dude, logic isn't the only thing in this world. We're humans, capable of logic and emotions as well. We have experiences and rational things to go by. We aren't robots, it's impossible to act only on logic and situations that go by paper.

To defend Vex, I'm pretty sure everyone and yourself has stepped into an Ike's FSmash before. And Vex FSmashed M2K right back. By YOUR LOGIC, where is M2K's credibility then?

 

[A2ZOMG]

To defend Vex, I'm pretty sure everyone and yourself has stepped into an Ike's FSmash before. And Vex FSmashed M2K right back. By YOUR LOGIC, where is M2K's credibility then?

This goes right back into my own argument that you cannot rely on practical match experience to defend how a matchup works.

You have to understand tools and options and how they work, and give good reasoning as to what can be done with them. NOT rely on your own ego.

Yes humans make mistakes, but we always have room to improve. Matchup theory is what we should aim to improve towards, and it is necessary to have good logical arguments for a matchup discussion, ESPECIALLY for a game where virtually nobody plays it correctly since the Brawl community has many many mediocre players attracted to a noob friendly game.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

This goes right back into my own argument that you cannot rely on practical match experience to defend how a matchup works.

You have to understand tools and options and how they work, and give good reasoning as to what can be done with them. NOT rely on your own ego.

I was talking to a few sonic mains the other day and they said u went to there board saying GnW vs Sonic was 75:25 or something, then you lost to a sonic afterwards. Just throwing that out there for no reason at all.

In game matchup experience > Theorycrafting, sorry, but just because something makes sense on paper does NOT mean it will always work in person, every single human being makes errors.

Like I said troll, if we ever meet, money match me please, I'll also MM you with Ganon. And please, continue posting, bringing activity to this board is awesome.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was talking to a few sonic mains the other day and they said u went to there board saying GnW vs Sonic was 75:25 or something, then you lost to a sonic afterwards. Just throwing that out there for no reason at all.

I've never played a Sonic in tournament. And this was an extremely long time ago. Stop being a fool.

In game matchup experience > Theorycrafting, sorry, but just because something makes sense on paper does NOT mean it will always work in person, every single human being makes errors.

Yes everyone makes mistakes. ESPECIALLY since virtually everyone sucks at this game.

Most players have a bad grasp of vertical spacing, deliberate powershielding, edgeguarding or recovering correctly, good use of SDI, establishing traps, the list goes on. The average player for this game is NOT very competent. You cannot rely on practical experience for this game to represent what actually can be done. However, we do matchup discussions to show us what we can AIM to improve ourselves towards.

Like I said troll, if we ever meet, money match me please, I'll also MM you with Ganon. And please, continue posting, bringing activity to this board is awesome.

Your MMs will prove nothing, stop being an egotistical fool. Instead of betting on your own ego that it will prove anything, actually show me that you know how this game works.

YOU are the one trolling this thread since you are contributing nothing helpful and only starting hostile arguments.

I'm actually contributing stuff.

 

[Cassius.]

There's a limit to how far theorycrafting can take you, A2. When will you realize that humans play this game, and that it's full of errors? There will never be a "perfect" match. You can't physically do it and no one can. You can say all you want, but when you're in front of that TV actually playing against someone, see what you really can do.

If most players suck, then what the **** is your point? LMAO you're really just preaching to a lost cause man.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's a limit to how far theorycrafting can take you, A2. When will you realize that humans play this game, and that it's full of errors? There will never be a "perfect" match. You can't physically do it and no one can. You can say all you want, but when you're in front of that TV actually playing against someone, see what you really can do.

If most players suck, then what the **** is your point? LMAO you're really just preaching to a lost cause man.

Everything I stated for matchups is humanly possible. Prove me wrong.

Tell me how you can have MANY Melee professionals who make FEWER technical errors a match than Brawl players make PER STOCK.

We all have room to improve. Matchup theory is how we can discover how to improve.