A Final Destination Only Ruleset

[Admiral Pit]

WOAH! Quick fact check, that isn't the way we have ALWAYS done it. Melee has the period of time when random was how stages were selected and we've had other home brew kinda things in the interim before Random, then what we use now.



I figured that much, I'm just looking for a more concrete "why" and to make you think a little on the subject. (I wont lie, I don't want FD only either, am I playing good devil's advocate?) I just want to open up discussion and think about this a little as it's an important subject.

Like I said, any character that aren't the ones I named (unless they get quite a few changes + different mechanics) or great campers are gonna generally be at the lower end of the potential. That's why I keep bringing up Bowser, because he's gonna easily get destroyed in an FD-only ruleset, to be beaten by the best of campers/runners. In fact, based on the little data we have so far and with the characters we got so far, Bowser and Donkey Kong would have the biggest disadvantages, while I assume Fox, Toon Link, a buffed-up Samus, and maybe, just maybe Pit would be the top ones... Diddy too if his banana routine is still dominant.
Long story short: Strong campers will most likely be the ones to dominate the FD-only ruleset, and that isn't fair to some of the characters. who struggle a lot against them. Without a counterpick to ease their time against said campers... you see where I'm going with this? That's what different stages are for, within reason, fairness balance that could be tested.

 

[mimgrim]

Would that be like, testing and balancing the characters on different environments for strictly competitive purposes, or just to see how would they fare on the different game modes' scenarios (Event mode, Classic mode, etc.)? If it's the latter, I can see it being so that, for example, a character with poor jumping prowess can at least make it through, say adventure mode; if not, well, FD-only rulesets lose hope.

On a different note, if we see Nintendo-sponsored events, these would be FD-only, right? if so how many people from this community do you think would be eager to assist?

Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?P

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people.P

But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.P

Kotaku: Recently?P

Sakurai: A long, long time ago. So I don't wanna ignore that there's that type of pleasure to be had from the game.P

Kotaku: Could you talk a little bit about how you balance it out, because there's so much going on in Smash Bros.—how do you make it so each character is as strong as the others?P

Sakurai: Do you mean more as far as the overall game design, or in the process of development making minor adjustments to the game?P

Kotaku: I would love to hear your answer to both.P

Sakurai: So in regards to overall game balance, what we do is we use sort of this monitor playtest where we set up players of a certain level to play highly-skilled players in an arena. For example, an arena just with maybe a single platform and we watch them fight over a certain amount of time and view video from that and decide at a high level how to make adjustments to that for the base.P

Smash Bros. is all about position—where you're at and what kind of power the player has based on where their position is at. So it's something that players have to take advantage of. But if suddenly you create sort of a testing scenario where the position balance is removed from the equation, and you sort of start to see where, when you remove that one factor from the game, you're basically testing two players in the same circumstances, that's when you can really start to see the differences and balance between characters.P

As far as the overall balance, if you were to take that and then put it in a flat playing field and have characters fight, you get a situation where suddenly, it's no different than any other fighting game. We realized that having different positioning, there's a lot of factors that occur in vertical elements of the stages. Once you get the core balance, then you can stretch out from there and realize, well, players don't want to play a normal flat fighting game: they want the special peculiarities of Smash Bros., where there's a lot of verticality, where the collision detection is a little broader. And the overall balancing goes factoring in those vertical elements as well.P

Kotaku: It seems like that must be very difficult, to take all those factors into account. How do you manage to make each character still feel strong and still feel like they can be competitive with the rest of the characters, even with all those positional factors?P

Sakurai: Yeah, if it was just a flat playing surface, it would be one thing, and you could determine pretty quickly which was the stronger character. But given the circumstances of the series, and there are so many factors, it comes down to a quite simple process, where you give characters a special—something special that no other character has. A special technique. And at the same time, as that ratchets up their strength, you also have to take something away, so it becomes a sort of game of checks and balances where you're adding and removing.P

So again, it's very important to have that system of checks and balances where if a character has some very strong point, you have to give him something weak. If a person really likes that character, and they want to have that special strength, they're going to have to sacrifice something to be able to take that weakness and create sort of a balance in that sense, where each character has something that certain people like.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Many see FD as bad an having a lack of variety. But it isn't as bad as you think.

You could have your Yoshi's Story destination with really small blastzones everywhere and no understage, you could have a Dreamland Destination with huge blastzones and alot of room to recover. You could have FD's with weird lips, you could have them like Melees. You could have them with a low ceiling and far side blastzones. You could have shallow bottom blastzones but a huge upward one. The differentiation is still possible. This also means we don't know a thing yet.

Maybe FD only would assist in helping balance the game easier. Adding another stage or even more makes this take even longer. Take a look at PM, figuring out match-ups in that game is a shot in the dark sometimes - usually FDs either good or bad for you.

If we had only FD is could be the better of two evils. No need to figure out other stages. But then does that take away a part of the game for better or for worse? It would develop the meta faster and almost similarly if we are to believe balance is a top priority, which I believe it is. You don't think they took this long on Smash 4 because they wanted Marths hair right?

We'll have to see. I'm pretty open to different arguments about this sort of stuff.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

A disturbing trend I'm seeing amongst the supporters is "it's okay, characters who prefer platform stages will just be low-tier". That's true. That's very true. But is it right? Why SHOULD we just neglect a significant number of characters because of their playstyle being more idealistic on stages that aren't FD? Especially when, you know, we could just add another stage like Battlefield.

As for what Alax said, I actually took this into account when pondering For Glory mode once. I drew the overly simplistic conclusion of "some FD varients would be better for X character than others, but ultimately you'd still be playing on FD".

 

[mimgrim]

Many see FD as bad an having a lack of variety. But it isn't as bad as you think.

You could have your Yoshi's Story destination with really small blastzones everywhere and no understage, you could have a Dreamland Destination with huge blastzones and alot of room to recover. You could have FD's with weird lips, you could have them like Melees. You could have them with a low ceiling and far side blastzones. You could have shallow bottom blastzones but a huge upward one. The differentiation is still possible. This also means we don't know a thing yet.

Maybe FD only would assist in helping balance the game easier. Adding another stage or even more makes this take even longer. Take a look at PM, figuring out match-ups in that game is a shot in the dark sometimes - usually FDs either good or bad for you.

If we had only FD is could be the better of two evils. No need to figure out other stages. But then does that take away a part of the game for better or for worse? It would develop the meta faster and almost similarly if we are to believe balance is a top priority, which I believe it is. You don't think they took this long on Smash 4 because they wanted Marths hair right?

We'll have to see. I'm pretty open to different arguments about this sort of stuff.

because, fundamentally, it is still FD.

I.E. It is a completely flat platform with no platforms.

This is why I suggest that for FD, the default version is the one that should be a starter while all other FDs should be only allowed as counter picks but should still all be grouped together as one stage so the banning one FD from being CPed bans them all, because they are still FD.

 

[Canuckduck]

I don't think FD is necessarily bad, just more preferable for characters with longer range and projectiles.

It's why I would prefer having both FD and Battlefield in For Glory mode; in fact, I might even prefer Battlefield.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't think FD is necessarily bad, just more preferable for characters with longer range and projectiles.

It's why I would prefer having both FD and Battlefield in For Glory mode; in fact, I might even prefer Battlefield.

Dunno man it looks like mac will **** FD.

 

[Canuckduck]

Dunno man it looks like mac will **** FD.

Of course, Fox and Samus could just stand back and use the blaster and missiles respectively...

I hope that they buff DKs aerial prowess, so he has advantages over Little Mac in some areas.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Of course, Fox and Samus could just stand back and use the blaster and missiles respectively...

I hope that they buff DKs aerial prowess, so he has advantages over Little Mac in some areas.

I hope everybody's solid Xd

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people.

I'm a wee bit disappointed that even though there was a lot of great stuff that came from Sakurai later in that article that you focused verbally almost entirely on this single paragraph as a proof that Sakurai isn't interested in balance.

You do know that he could just as easily be interested in both? It's not impossible to care both about character balance and fun factor. What he's essentially saying is that when it comes to the game as a whole, he's interested in it being as fun as possible for the most amount of people. Many games that still see a surge in popularity at the competitive level, not only with tournaments but have the largest twitch viewership per capita, still openly admit to doing this very same thing (League of Legends, World of Warcraft Arena/Raiding, Hearthstone).

It's very interesting to note that most people talking about change and stuff are *mostly* new members, not trying to insinuate anything here as I'm still rather new to Smashboards myself. Just something that is on the interesting side.

If this is anything other than an attempt to be passive-aggressively patronizing then I would eat my hat. I'm a new poster but I have lurked Smashboards since Melee. I tend to judge a person by the quality of their words, not the quantity of their post count, it wouldn't hurt you in the least to attempt the same.

A disturbing trend I'm seeing amongst the supporters is "it's okay, characters who prefer platform stages will just be low-tier". That's true. That's very true. But is it right? Why SHOULD we just neglect a significant number of characters because of their playstyle being more idealistic on stages that aren't FD? Especially when, you know, we could just add another stage like Battlefield.

As for what Alax said, I actually took this into account when pondering For Glory mode once. I drew the overly simplistic conclusion of "some FD varients would be better for X character than others, but ultimately you'd still be playing on FD".

No, no, no.

I never said "it's okay". I was simply stating that players would adapt on the character-side of things and these balance woes (should they even exist at all) would be non-existent in practice, should Sakurai really go in to this release fully triceratop-mode, without knowing what he's doing.

Ultimately, the goal is that every character performs well on Final Destination. That's what any rational and competitive player should want from the reveal of 'For Glory'.

I'm inclined to have a little bit of faith this time around. I'm not even worried as much about balance as I am about their ability to patch imbalances, because as long as that ability is there, there's a way to fix things even if they come out in shambles initially, which I think is unlikely anyway.

Many see FD as bad an having a lack of variety. But it isn't as bad as you think.

You could have your Yoshi's Story destination with really small blastzones everywhere and no understage, you could have a Dreamland Destination with huge blastzones and alot of room to recover. You could have FD's with weird lips, you could have them like Melees. You could have them with a low ceiling and far side blastzones. You could have shallow bottom blastzones but a huge upward one. The differentiation is still possible. This also means we don't know a thing yet.

Maybe FD only would assist in helping balance the game easier. Adding another stage or even more makes this take even longer. Take a look at PM, figuring out match-ups in that game is a shot in the dark sometimes - usually FDs either good or bad for you.

If we had only FD is could be the better of two evils. No need to figure out other stages. But then does that take away a part of the game for better or for worse? It would develop the meta faster and almost similarly if we are to believe balance is a top priority, which I believe it is. You don't think they took this long on Smash 4 because they wanted Marths hair right?

We'll have to see. I'm pretty open to different arguments about this sort of stuff.

You should definitely do a full length video on this. This kind of discussion is pretty deep and its importance couldn't really be understated as it could possibly define our entire meta-game, potentially. Your commentary is humorous and enlightening and I think a "FD ONLY?!" video would be a good watch.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm a wee bit disappointed that even though there was a lot of great stuff that came from Sakurai later in that article that you focused verbally almost entirely on this single paragraph as a proof that Sakurai isn't interested in balance.
.

I don't think mimgrim was aggressively attacking here. i think he was just showing that balance was not the only thing on his mind. When honestly it should not.
We need balance but we need fun as well.
Im still on FD meta boat but my goal is more for people to try it. and i think the 3ds early release is the perfect time to see if character to operate optimally on FD.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think mimgrim was aggressively attacking here. i think he was just showing that balance was not the only thing on his mind. When honestly it should not.

Someone is claiming I am aggressively attacking? That's rather funny. Must be someone on my ignore list then.

Still. I think most of what has needed to bee said has been said about it. It's rather obvious by the poll on where the majority is leaning. Of course getting opinions from top players would be the best thing, but that probably won't happen lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Someone is claiming I am aggressively attacking? That's rather funny. Must be someone on my ignore list then.

Um is it me? I hope not D;
im just trying to discuss this and i feel some people are starting to get irritated. We can have our opinions right?
Zipzo try not to be so defensive.( or at least come off as such)
and you mimgrim well you come off as arrogant sometimes but i think thats just the way you seem to me. lol im canadian so almost any comment from out side canada can come off that way srry Xd.
Any way back to the ever so great back and forth of the FD meta discussion.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Someone is claiming I am aggressively attacking? That's rather funny. Must be someone on my ignore list then.

Oh dear me, you've pushed pretentious-ness to new heights.

I'm not defensive at all. He initiated with attitude so I responded in kind. If he wants to continue failing to have his own opinion and instead opting to "speak for the people" ignorantly, that's his loss of worth, not mine.

 

[mimgrim]

Um is it me? I hope not D;

Nah. I quoted you, which means I can see your posts.

Your pretty much fine, besides from your posts being hard to read at times.

and you mimgrim well you come off as arrogant sometimes but i think thats just the way you seem to me. lol im canadian so almost any comment from out side canada can come off the way srry Xd.
Any back to the ever so great back and forth of the FD meta discussion.

Lol. I'm probably the least arrogant person you will ever meet. I think so lowly of myself and think that I am bad at absolutely everything to where it isn't even funny lol.

So yea. It's funny that I come off as arrogant when I am far from it. xD

 

[Canuckduck]

Ultimately, the goal is that every character performs well on Final Destination. That's what any rational and competitive player should want from the reveal of 'For Glory'.

Well, it's kind of hard to make every character perform well on a stage with no hazards or platforms and is, as Sakurai put it, "perfectly flat."

It's obvious in competitive play, and even in casual play, that characters who have projectiles have an advantage over characters who do not; they can just stand back and fire at their opponent. Considering this, once again, I support including Battlefield in "For Glory" mode.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh dear me, you've pushed pretentious-ness to new heights.

I'm not defensive at all. He initiated with attitude so I responded in kind. If he wants to continue failing to have his own opinion and instead opting to "speak for the people" ignorantly, that's his loss of worth, not mine.

Srry i mis read Xd

Nah. I quoted you, which means I can see your posts.

Your pretty much fine, besides from your posts being hard to read at times.



Lol. I'm probably the least arrogant person you will ever meet. I think so lowly of myself and think that I am bad at absolutely everything to where it isn't even funny lol.

So yea. It's gunny that I come off as arrogant when I am far from it. xD

Ah srry again lol canadian. But lets try not to get to strayed off topic.
we don't need to go off in irrelevant tangents like "why do people disagree with tech skill" forum

And yeah im lazy when it comes to my text blocks. i know grammar very well im just lazy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, it's kind of hard to make every character perform well on a stage with no hazards or platforms and is, as Sakurai put it, "perfectly flat."

It's obvious in competitive play, and even in casual play, that characters who have projectiles have an advantage over characters who do not; they can just stand back and fire at their opponent. Considering this, once again, I support including Battlefield in "For Glory" mode.

You make it seem like any fighting game character that has a gun equals win.
wait (person 4 arena's aegis?) crap lol.
*edit* crap double post srry.

 

[Canuckduck]

You make it seem like any fighting game character that has a gun equals win.
wait (person 4 arena's aegis?) crap lol.
*edit* crap double post srry.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. It's particularly more difficult to balance Super Smash Bros. than, say for example, Street Fighter for a multitude of reasons.

1. The characters are from different franchises and might have limitations to the variations of moves they possess.
2. SSB uses items, is a lot more fast-paced, and has different rules than other fighting games.
3. I cannot recall a single fighting game other than Super Smash Bros. where more than 1 character uses a gun. In fact, I can't recall any fighting game that has characters with guns aside from SSB. This is another reason; certain characters use items from their respective franchises.

If you could point out a fighting game where more than 1 character uses a "gun-like projectile", I will conceed this point.

 

[Canuckduck]

OH AND I DON'T MEAN MOVES LIKE THE HADOUKEN AND SONIC BOOM.

I mean characters who use a "G is for Gun" gun.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. It's particularly more difficult to balance Super Smash Bros. than, say for example, Street Fighter for a multitude of reasons.

1. The characters are from different franchises and might have limitations to the variations of moves they possess.
2. SSB uses items, is a lot more fast-paced, and has different rules than other fighting games.
3. I cannot recall a single fighting game other than Super Smash Bros. where more than 1 character uses a gun. In fact, I can't recall any fighting game that has characters with guns aside from SSB. This is another reason; certain characters use items from their respective franchises.

If you could point out a fighting game where more than 1 character uses a "gun-like projectile", I will conceed this point.

Can it be like guns coming out of your shoulders?
cuz then im sure marvel vs capcom 2 has plenty of characters like war machine and b.b. hood

 

[Canuckduck]

Can it be like guns coming out of your shoulders?
cuz then im sure marvel vs capcom 2 has plenty of characters like war machine and b.b. hood

No, I mean either a laser blaster that resembles a gun, or a literal "John Wayne" gun.

 

[mimgrim]

Something else to keep in mind with what Sakurai needs to balance, as well.

The competitive community if predominantly 1v1 and that is where are primary concern for balance is concerned. Sakurai has to worry about that and everything else, FFAs, single play stuff, ect.... Which makes it a lot more spread out much further, to where it once again leads to where we can't really trust the balance stuff he does anyway.

Ganondorf may be considered the worst in competitive community but he isn't nearly as bad as in FFAs as he is in 1v1.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Persona 4 has plenty of characters with ranged projectiles, one of them which actually uses a traditional gun, but there are a crap load of other projectiles that work in almost the exact same way like fans, lasers, missiles from Aegis, and so on.

I don't know why it's arbitrarily important that it's an actual gun if the function is ultimately the same.

Projectiles are not uncommon or rare in fighting games, and there are a multitude of ways to counter them that people have been utilizing for generations that don't include needing platforms in a level.

 

[Canuckduck]

Something else to keep in mind with what Sakurai needs to balance, as well.

The competitive community if predominantly 1v1 and that is where are primary concern for balance is concerned. Sakurai has to worry about that and everything else, FFAs, single play stuff, ect.... Which makes it a lot more spread out much further, to where it once again leads to where we can't really trust the balance stuff he does anyway.

Ganondorf may be considered the worst in competitive community but he isn't nearly as bad as in FFAs as he is in 1v1.

Ganondorf is considered the worst in Brawl by much of the community, however, I personally see Jigglypuff as the worst character. In Melee, both were seen as middle-to-high tier characters.

One idea I have to suggest is periodic updates to the game with the intent of balancing it out as new techniques and strategies are found.

 

[Canuckduck]

Persona 4 has plenty of characters with ranged projectiles, one of them which actually uses a traditional gun, but there are a crap load of other projectiles that work in almost the exact same way like fans, lasers, missiles from Aegis, and so on.

I don't know why it's arbitrarily important that it's an actual gun if the function is ultimately the same.

Because projectiles have been in fighting games since the beginning. I'm referring to fast firing, slick projectiles that function similar to a real life gun.

EDIT: No more double posts, I swear.

 

[mimgrim]

Ganondorf is considered the worst in Brawl by much of the community, however, I personally see Jigglypuff as the worst character. In Melee, both were seen as middle-to-high tier characters.

One idea I have to suggest is periodic updates to the game with the intent of balancing it out as new techniques and strategies are found.

Well I could have used Pichu from Melee instead.

But that was actually made to be a bad character lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, I mean either a laser blaster that resembles a gun, or a literal "John Wayne" gun.

Oh okay then yeah MvC 2 bb hood and strider Xd

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'm a wee bit disappointed that even though there was a lot of great stuff that came from Sakurai later in that article that you focused verbally almost entirely on this single paragraph as a proof that Sakurai isn't interested in balance.

You do know that he could just as easily be interested in both? It's not impossible to care both about character balance and fun factor. What he's essentially saying is that when it comes to the game as a whole, he's interested in it being as fun as possible for the most amount of people. Many games that still see a surge in popularity at the competitive level, not only with tournaments but have the largest twitch viewership per capita, still openly admit to doing this very same thing (League of Legends, World of Warcraft Arena/Raiding, Hearthstone).


If this is anything other than an attempt to be passive-aggressively patronizing then I would eat my hat. I'm a new poster but I have lurked Smashboards since Melee. I tend to judge a person by the quality of their words, not the quantity of their post count, it wouldn't hurt you in the least to attempt the same.


No, no, no.

I never said "it's okay". I was simply stating that players would adapt on the character-side of things and these balance woes (should they even exist at all) would be non-existent in practice, should Sakurai really go in to this release fully triceratop-mode, without knowing what he's doing.

Ultimately, the goal is that every character performs well on Final Destination. That's what any rational and competitive player should want from the reveal of 'For Glory'.

I'm inclined to have a little bit of faith this time around. I'm not even worried as much about balance as I am about their ability to patch imbalances, because as long as that ability is there, there's a way to fix things even if they come out in shambles initially, which I think is unlikely anyway.


You should definitely do a full length video on this. This kind of discussion is pretty deep and its importance couldn't really be understated as it could possibly define our entire meta-game, potentially. Your commentary is humorous and enlightening and I think a "FD ONLY?!" video would be a good watch.

Seriously I'm already known as the video guy xD? Well admitably I do want to do something of that fashion, prolly close to release though so nothing needs to be said twice and it's a more appropriate time where things of this nature need to be thought about.

 

[Canuckduck]

Oh okay then yeah MvC 2 bb hood and strider Xd

I stand corrected.

*bows head*

 

[Canuckduck]

Well I could have used Pichu from Melee instead.

But that was actually made to be a bad character lol.

I actually find it fun to play as Pichu, but that's not because it's a good character. It's because it's so bad that it keeps me energized (especially trying to "jump" out of the path of an oncoming Thundershock (down-B)).

EDIT: FRIG! ANOTHER DP?!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I stand corrected.

*bows head*

Honestly the same can be said of Smash though if you're going to narrow the eligibility so tight.

Fox is really the only one with a rapid-firing gun. Other (space animal) characters have guns (more like lasers), but they aren't nearly as rapid-firing as his.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Seriously I'm already known as the video guy xD? Well admitably I do want to do something of that fashion, prolly close to release though so nothing needs to be said twice and it's a more appropriate time where things of this nature need to be thought about.

Yeah video guy make a video when the game comes out. Xd JK

Something else to keep in mind with what Sakurai needs to balance, as well.

The competitive community if predominantly 1v1 and that is where are primary concern for balance is concerned. Sakurai has to worry about that and everything else, FFAs, single play stuff, ect.... Which makes it a lot more spread out much further, to where it once again leads to where we can't really trust the balance stuff he does anyway.

Ganondorf may be considered the worst in competitive community but he isn't nearly as bad as in FFAs as he is in 1v1.

And thats honestly a great point.
i can only agree here.
well okay i lied i can up with one thing. Xd
its really that free for all is generally for fun (no pun intended) and that we can fully use 1v1 characters for free for all since it dose not really matter.
But still great point i basically agree.

 

[mimgrim]

its really that free for all is generally for fun (no pun intended) and that we can fully use 1v1 characters for free for all since it dose not really matter.

It doesn't matter to us.

That probably not true for Sakurai lol.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It doesn't matter to us.

That probably not true for Sakurai lol.

Very true
actually im concerned about how sakurai will notice balance issues since you know the whole Arm problem affecting his grip on the controller. im sure many other staff will find very complex button input problems that sakurai will acknowledge and deal with. but it just seems harder if he can't experience that phenomena himself since he may not be able to input commands like that with the arm problem. so he may not address the issue correctly..

 

[link2702]

no.

There could/would inevitably be some character(s) who truly dominate on FD. Making sure we have other stages as well as a counterpicking system and stage striking will ensure these characters won't always get their best stage.

 

[Canuckduck]

no.

There could/would inevitably be some character(s) who truly dominate on FD. Making sure we have other stages as well as a counterpicking system and stage striking will ensure these characters won't always get their best stage.

PRECISELY!

 

[Road Death Wheel]

no.

There could/would inevitably be some character(s) who truly dominate on FD. Making sure we have other stages as well as a counterpicking system and stage striking will ensure these characters won't always get their best stage.

You make it seem like your making the game with the counter pick system in mind?
like can you justify your point?
Iv heard way better ones than this.
How are you sure this is inevitable?
how would the counter pick system really change the game?
give me a concrete reason so i can dismiss you as opinionated.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I think time's the only thing that'll tell. We can speculate but we won't know exactly how well balanced the cast is on one stage. Even so, the addition of a platform or two can skew rankings in a way. Example - Player 1 has projectile and Player 2 cannot counter it or approach. Therefore, everyone who has a projectile will make it harder on Player 2 to approach. Let's say there is a platform. Player 2 can now use this to approach, and they matchup becomes more in it's favor.

Unless every character can approach or counter a projectile, or they're made in a fashion where they won't make it impossible to approach and will cause shortcomings elsewhere, then FD only can stay.

I still worry though. When you truly understand counter-picking then you see just how much of an advantage you can gain. For example, in PM, I (try to) play Olimar. He excels on small stages with platforms (Yoshi's Story, Warioware, Lylat). On FD, he is at a disadvantage, where he cannot reach his full potential and has (believe it or not) a difficult time approaching. However, let's say we only had FD in PM. If this was the case, I'd have to put my big boy pants on and ride out the storm. I'd learn where on FD and in what matchups Olimar would excel, and would find ways to make it work for him. I'd only need to focus on one stage, allowing for more time to better my skill on one stage for (what is it, 41?) all matchups. Then I'd find where I do better, or maybe, I'd have a bundle of mains that I would use when appropriate. Then I could focus on smart counter-picking of CHARACTERS when I need to fight someone. Say I have Oli and Ganondorf and my opponent has DK and Jiggs. Opponent uses Jiggs. Let's just say Oli and Jiggs play at top level performance and Oli loses. ThenI counter pick to Ganon, where he has a better matchup stat againest Jiggs, and I win. And so on and so forth.

Both sides present some interesting pros and cons. I'd totally try this out, especially since we get alot of FDs in Smash 4. But, again, we must wait.

 

[mimgrim]

You make it seem like your making the game with the counter pick system in mind?
like can you justify your point?
Iv heard way better ones than this.
How are you sure this is inevitable?
how would the counter pick system really change the game?
give me a concrete reason so i can dismiss you as opinionated.

Well. I'm not claiming or trying to speak for the person, but, it generally comes from past experiences.

In Melee you have a character like Marth and Falco, arguably the 2 best Zoners in the game, who are extremely good at abusing the stage. There is also ICs, but I shouldn't have to go into detail with them.

Brawl also has Marth, Falco, and ICs who are are still good at abusing the stage along with Diddy, Olimar, DDD, and Snake.

And despite Melee and Brawl being different, FD still overly supported zoners or characters with CGs more then other characters.

Basically, past dictates that this trend will most likely continue with smash 4.