A Final Destination Only Ruleset

[KeketheBasedCat]

People are going to have/already have the idea of FD = Competition in their heads because of the very existence of the For Glory, FD mode. Nothing we can do about that. I'm also unclear on why exactly it's detrimental if people associate FD with competitve smash

 

[LiteralGrill]

People are going to have/already have the idea of FD = Competition in their heads because of the very existence of the For Glory, FD mode. Nothing we can do about that. I'm also unclear on why exactly it's detrimental if people associate FD with competitve smash

When tons of them start coming to join our community, we'll have to deal with them. In Brawl there was a huge items crowd and people wanted TONS of stages legal. I'm not saying those people were right or wrong, but we treated them horribly and most of them just left. We don't want something similar to happen for smash 4, and in all honesty I can't trust our community to be good seeing as how we seem to have a giant fight almost every day on here about a certain game vs another game.

 

[Malex]

I didn't mean ignoring them completely. I just meant that if I'm holding an event and X number of people show up who want to use any rules besides the rules I have chosen for the tournament ahead of time, they're out of luck. Whether be item, stage, or character involved. They can complain at sign ups.

If they come to boards to try and fight the standard, I'm all for that. It'll be the first step in them becoming an educated player.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

i dont think people should adopt any more i change my opinion let people choose what they want to play. so ehen i say this i mean lets have 2 meta's

 

[LiteralGrill]

i dont think people should adopt any more i change my opinion let people choose what they want to play. so ehen i say this i mean lets have 2 meta's

Let's be more specific, how would two metas work? How would they coexist?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Let's be more specific, how would two metas work? How would they coexist?

sorry my reply took a little long. im having limited internet access as of late.

but to anser your question i feel the best answer is like how smogon has several tier meta games.
ou
uu
ru
nu
(also ubers but whatever)
basically im not saying make meta's based on tiers
lets just have this

Standard (platforms and such)
Final destination

so now player have more options in entering a meta game of their choice and preference.
all in all i don't see to much a problem in developing a section towards FD meta game. And the platform players don't have to conform. Everyone happy and people like myself will enjoy both meta's.

The only problem is that a whole new war might arise from this similar to brawl vs melee (Standard vs FD)

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I honestly wish that this topic was more centered around the potential for complete balance around Final Destination, rather than the potential for an entire separate meta that revolves around it because the former at least leaves flexibility and understanding to the remaining stages where as the latter just intends to cut them out.

I didn't make the thread though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I honestly wish that this topic was more centered around the potential for complete balance around Final Destination, rather than the potential for an entire separate meta that revolves around it because the former at least leaves flexibility and understanding to the remaining stages where as the latter just intends to cut them out.

I didn't make the thread though.

good point but im more than sure we discussed the potential. in the previous pages and all we learned is that its hard to fill a glass thats already full. so i decided to get another glass.

 

[Sucumbio]

Japan's meta game for Brawl developed largely by limiting comp play to FD which when it expanded to include BF (in in super rare cases SV) ended up helping the overall meta game so I guess it makes sense to focus on the FD only (flat) approach and then branch out from there. But it's too soon to tell, really. There could be quite a few CP stages that are viable. But remember Brawl brought on a lot of argument between camps, those who felt FD/BF/SV were the only really legit comp stages, and those who felt those made good "starters" and that there were legit cp's after that. This new approach to flat versions of multiple stages suggests that the entire starter/cp system would need to be rethought and perhaps done away with (ie starters would be any flat stage, then cp would be non-flat). Or even still there may be variation WITHIN the flat stages, as in some may be longer flat surfaces than others, to accommodate various modes, like teams.

 

[LiteralGrill]

The only problem is that a whole new war might arise from this similar to brawl vs melee (Standard vs FD)

Other then the way too complex system you proposed, that itself is already a problem our community has with more stages vs less stages. It's something it seems is impossible to stop...

I honestly wish that this topic was more centered around the potential for complete balance around Final Destination, rather than the potential for an entire separate meta that revolves around it because the former at least leaves flexibility and understanding to the remaining stages where as the latter just intends to cut them out.

I didn't make the thread though.

But you can make it into anything you want it to be. I'm willing to discuss it. If balance on FD only was actually better then allowing any other stage I'd be able to seriously consider actually advocating for it even though I want more variety. But how balanced is balanced to you? How much of the cast must be viable to fit that criteria?

Japan's meta game for Brawl developed largely by limiting comp play to FD which when it expanded to include BF (in in super rare cases SV) ended up helping the overall meta game so I guess it makes sense to focus on the FD only (flat) approach and then branch out from there. But it's too soon to tell, really. There could be quite a few CP stages that are viable. But remember Brawl brought on a lot of argument between camps, those who felt FD/BF/SV were the only really legit comp stages, and those who felt those made good "starters" and that there were legit cp's after that. This new approach to flat versions of multiple stages suggests that the entire starter/cp system would need to be rethought and perhaps done away with (ie starters would be any flat stage, then cp would be non-flat). Or even still there may be variation WITHIN the flat stages, as in some may be longer flat surfaces than others, to accommodate various modes, like teams.

We need to get rid of starters and counterpicks in the first place since it's got problems. I shall once again quote the illustrious, the marvellous, the fantastic, the (five episodes later) OVER 9000 Amazing Ampharos on this one.

The problem with a more "traditional" style of making rules and using "counterpick" stages is really twofold. From a "what's legal" standpoint, you spend almost all of your time arguing over which counterpick stages to allow as you really vigorously disagree over whether that Yellow Devil on Wily's Castle really is acceptable or not. Then from the player's perspective, what's a "starter" stage is really the only thing that matters; a prudent player is likely to just master whichever stages are starters, accept losing on wacky cp stages once in a while, and then just use his own counterpicks to ensure he can still win the set on starter style stages. In the long run, that makes those counterpick stages even more hated, and the tiny starter list that was not even a focus for years becomes all you have left. Just taking a somewhat broader pool of broadly acceptable stages and making them legal for game one just seems to obviously serve everyone's interests and should make for the best tournament game in the long run.

Though, one stage isn't much to argue about, unless the variants of it are really different.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Other then the way too complex system you proposed, that itself is already a problem our community has with more stages vs less stages. It's something it seems is impossible to stop...



But you can make it into anything you want it to be. I'm willing to discuss it. If balance on FD only was actually better then allowing any other stage I'd be able to seriously consider actually advocating for it even though I want more variety. But how balanced is balanced to you? How much of the cast must be viable to fit that criteria?



We need to get rid of starters and counterpicks in the first place since it's got problems. I shall once again quote the illustrious, the marvellous, the fantastic, the (five episodes later) OVER 9000 Amazing Ampharos on this one.



Though, one stage isn't much to argue about, unless the variants of it are really different.

Really it coame off as complex

all i want is standard play rule set
and FD rules set
and players chose what they wish.

 

[Second Power]

Really it coame off as complex

all i want is standard play rule set
and FD rules set
and players chose what they wish.

Technically, TO chooses.

 

[Dapplegonger]

Even though Sakurai might be advocating and pushing Final Destination through For Glory Mode, most online matches even in Brawl took place on FD as well. Aside from this, since when have we ever done what Sakurai set as the norm, or the default. In all previous games, the default mode has been 2 min match with items and no friendly fire turned on for doubles. Just because that's what Sakurai wants doesn't mean we should do it. My suggestion is that we do FD only as a common side event similarly to how doubles works at the moment (let's face it, doubles is usually like a side event anyway) to show Sakurai that we care.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Even though Sakurai might be advocating and pushing Final Destination through For Glory Mode, most online matches even in Brawl took place on FD as well. Aside from this, since when have we ever done what Sakurai set as the norm, or the default. In all previous games, the default mode has been 2 min match with items and no friendly fire turned on for doubles. Just because that's what Sakurai wants doesn't mean we should do it. My suggestion is that we do FD only as a common side event similarly to how doubles works at the moment (let's face it, doubles is usually like a side event anyway) to show Sakurai that we care.

Just because that's what the default was doesn't he was intending that to be the choice mode of play. If you think about it, the default mode (2 minute FFA) is the most conducive mode to short quick bursts of play-for-fun matches you can jam in to anywhere, which is largely what Nintendo tries to support with its consoles and games. Games you can jump in and enjoy the game immediately, and at your own pace.

In for glory, the stage selection is literally specifically limited, it's not like there's a choice.

Two completely different scenarios.

 

[edde]

no.
theres many balanced stages that canbe used... just battlefied alone is enough argument for me to say no to this

on the other hand...
FD + the legal stages (battlefield, smashville, etc) + the illegal stages on FD form would be a thing i would like to see

 

[Road Death Wheel]

no.
theres many balanced stages that canbe used... just battlefied alone is enough argument for me to say no to this

on the other hand...
FD + the legal stages (battlefield, smashville, etc) + the illegal stages on FD form would be a thing i would like to see

If you think battlefield has not been brought up in this thread that you should really look at some previous pages in the thread there's some good conversation that might make you think other wise if you willing to actually look.

 

[edde]

If you think battlefield has not been brought up in this thread that you should really look at some previous pages in the thread there's some good conversation that might make you think other wise if you willing to actually look.

im not saying anything against battlefield, and i wont read 10 pages, im just saying that battlefield alone is enough of an argument for me to have an opinion of not playing just in fd

 

[Malex]

im not saying anything against battlefield, and i wont read 10 pages, im just saying that battlefield alone is enough of an argument for me to have an opinion of not playing just in fd

He is saying that the mere fact that battlefield exists isn't a good enough reason for its inclusion on the stage list, and there has been discussion that have made others rethink their position. Nothing wrong with educating yourself on the issue before making definite claims.

 

[Oops!]

Regardless of whether the competitive scene adopts the FD-only ruleset, I'm super excited for For Glory mode and working Smash online in general. Whether or not competitive players like the idea of an FD-only ruleset, For Glory is still going to be the easiest way to practice in Smash 4 when you can't organize something with your friends. So while actual tournaments might not be keen on the idea, I think For Glory mode is gonna be jumpin', and I can't wait to step into the ring. Er, onto the platform.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Regardless of whether the competitive scene adopts the FD-only ruleset, I'm super excited for For Glory mode and working Smash online in general. Whether or not competitive players like the idea of an FD-only ruleset, For Glory is still going to be the easiest way to practice in Smash 4 when you can't organize something with your friends. So while actual tournaments might not be keen on the idea, I think For Glory mode is gonna be jumpin', and I can't wait to step into the ring. Er, onto the platform.

This may lead to a LOT of online tournaments going FD only at a bare minimum which could be interesting. I agree, either way it's cool to have For Glory Mode in the game.

 

[Dracometeor]

In my opinion, Sakurai making For Glory be ONLY Final Destination was a huge slap in the face for competitive Smash. The competitive Smash community does not ONLY play Final Destination no items. However now EVERY Smash Bros. player will automatically assume competitive matches are only on Final Destination which can actually make them less interested in our competitive scene.

It also makes it seem as if he doesn't listen to the competitive smash community since this isn't how we play either, but sets a bad example of our community.

Also For Glory mode is pointless. No ranking system? What glory will the player be receiving then?...
Since our Global Smash Power is based on single player (What?) you won't actually know how good a person is in multiplayer.
I guess their is skillbased matchmaking (I'm assuming with W/L ratio and a hidden ELO system for not causing yourself to play worst players after losing a match to a person with a great W/L ratio) but their is no visual or easily distinguishable "Rank" that you are.

 

[Dracometeor]

Regardless of whether the competitive scene adopts the FD-only ruleset, I'm super excited for For Glory mode and working Smash online in general. Whether or not competitive players like the idea of an FD-only ruleset, For Glory is still going to be the easiest way to practice in Smash 4 when you can't organize something with your friends. So while actual tournaments might not be keen on the idea, I think For Glory mode is gonna be jumpin', and I can't wait to step into the ring. Er, onto the platform.

Then you play on a non Final destination stage and everything changes... It's nice for practice, but would be MUCH better with a small variety of basic stages like battlefield, smashville. Or most of the Project M modified stages like Pokemon Stadium 2. Just FD is eh.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

For Glory is just a quickmatch that is intended to be vaguely competitive enough to be fun for players like us. FFAs with items are just not fun for our flavor of players. I think a lot of people read way too much into the design decisions of For Glory; it's really not relevant to tournament play.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Then you play on a non Final destination stage and everything changes... It's nice for practice, but would be MUCH better with a small variety of basic stages like battlefield, smashville. Or most of the Project M modified stages like Pokemon Stadium 2. Just FD is eh.

You cannot seriously be expecting Sakurai to come up with a legal stage list in the manner our community comes up with.... are you?
It's becoming more and more apparent that this game is being balanced around FD and FG mode, so I have no qualms with this becoming a major thing at all.