A few thoughts on Sheik

[-Mars-]

So I was looking at the tier list the other day when I came to the realization.

Two out of the top 3 characters in Brawl can be grab released to DACUS by Sheik. Two out of the top three characters in Brawl have ENORMOUS trouble dealing with the chain. All 5 of the characters in S tier can be tilt locked to high damages.

I know it's been dismissed time after time......but we honestly need to implement the chain into our game. MK and Wario can be chain camped. Having said that the only thing that MK could reliably do is jump over Sheik and dair. Due to his slow aerial movement speed this gives Sheik plenty of time to retract, reset positioning, and resume chain camping. I feel that no one has just been determined on playing as gay as possible with Sheik. With Wario the situation is nearly the same. When you see him get on his bike....retract.

DACUS gives Sheik one of the more lethal grab release games in Brawl. Her projectile is very good having the damage of a smash attack not to mention it's laser priority. She lacks amazing range but she does possess adequate range in most cases with the ability to space well enough on block as to not get shield grabbed. Her moveset is ridiculously fast with low cooldown on the majority of her attacks. Her aerial speed allows her to put pressure on characters such as Wario who would otherwise feel at ease approaching through the air.

More and more i'm starting to truly get the feeling that Sheik is good in Brawl. Whereas before when the metagame was developing we were focusing on her nerfs from Melee I feel that we're now at the point where we can make the case for Sheik being TOURNAMENT viable in Brawl. For a character nearly in D tier she has arguably the best matchups against S tier in the game for a character outside of that tier<_<. The Ice Climber problem will always be in the equation but honestly how many Ice Climbers mains are out there? Less than 10?

I know i'm being sort of redundant and just repeating theories that we have gone over time after time but I truly feel this way. The problem is that no one wants to go the full length to take Sheik to that next level. We say Neo, Armada, and Light are the best Sheik players, yet none of them truly go solo Sheik and Neo and Light don't even really use Sheik in tournament. A person willing to play Sheik extremely gay and take the time to invest hours after hours into all of her techs........I really feel could go far with Sheik; and when I mean far I mean compete with the best of the best.

Really what weaknesses does she have? I only see two glaring weaknesses. Her recovery and her KO power. Even those two are not persay glaring weaknesses and even with her KO problems we have found ways around that...........k not found ways around but actually ound ways that were better. Even bringing Zelda into the equation I feel makes Sheik that much more of a tournament threat, although that's a whole other area.

Maybe i'm just a mid-level player that doesn't understand what it takes to go to that next level? Maybe i'm just delusional and still maintain a certain fanboyish bias that clouds my thinking? Maybe so. What i'm asking is does anyone else have this same optimism that I have with Sheik or am I the only one?

 

[Spelt]

uhh.
all 3 of the top 3 characters can be grab released to dacus?

 

[gm jack]

uhh.
all 3 of the top 3 characters can be grab released to dacus?

Well, MK can be constantly. It is something all Sheik players need to practice. I can do it occassionall,y so it goes with daily DAUCS practice now.

If Snake air releases, he folows the same path as MK, so gets hit by the tipper.

Wario requires two steps forward then Usmash.

Personally, I do think Sheik has an outside chance of being able to go the whole way. Mostly, because she is very flexible. However, the IC are a serious problem, as they do feature up fairly often from what I have seen/ Not enough to dominate area, and often not good enough to do that. But as IC can break down her game so well, it may be necessary to have a secondary just to deal with them.

 

[psike]

Personally I think Zelda helps a lot with the IC situation. Many or her attacks (dsmash, neutral b, nair) do a great job at separating them, which is the key to beating them.

Sheik's big problem is indeed the KO. I think her edge guarding game needs to really step it up in order to improve in this regard. The tools are there though.

As for the chain, I use it in two main ways. The first is for when I am playing opponents that have a larger attack range on the ground (such as marthas fair) but a lot of ending lag. I will throw out the chain tipper and retract immediately. The other use is to go for the chain lock. The only time I try this is if I have used the chain on the opponent already and I know that they will try to jump over me and approach from behind. If you see it coming, you can get a weak chain hit in the air when they are jumping over you, and then you can sometimes get lucky and land the chain lock.

Eventually there will be some good Sheik pros, I have no doubt.

 

[Tristan_win]

I've been thinking about this for a while roughly since savior combo thread, you know the one were the "Swan Combo" was made public, anyways what the sheik community really need is a hero.

We need one, extremely good player who is talkative or at least get's recorded fairly often to help centralized sheik/zelda play style. As of right now nearly every decent single sheik/zelda main use her in a different way, we are all unique and because of that we are all suffering.

Think about it.
Diddy kong, Ninjalink
Mario, Boss
Zamus, Snakeee
Lucario, Azen
Pikachu, Anther

That's just naming a few characters that I can think of that had one person really streamline their character. You will also notice that not all of them are still the best with that said character anymore for example I think ADHD is better then ninjalink with Diddy, however because of Ninja link ADHD had a much easier time learning how to use Diddy and ultimately this allowed him to surpass him by building from the base Ninjalink built.

The closest the sheik community has ever had to a true hero is RyokoYaksa. When I first fought him I was devastated by the shear level of difference in skill their was between my sheik and his and thus I strive to close the gap. By doing this I naturally started to copy his sheik, mimicking what he would do, stealing his tricks and adapting to my own use, because of this I change focus of my sheik development....Sadly RyokoYaksa doesn't play competitively very often, doesn't get recorded too often either and you really just need to look at his title if you have any questions about how talkative he is.

Neo is a fantastic player, and he uses sheik in ways I never even thought of before but with all respect I don't see him as a sheik hero.

Right now we got a lot of things we don't use because of
A. We don't know how good they are, individually
B. We don't know how to use them, correctly
C. We cannot even use them regularly or dependently.

I'm maining speak about the Chain, dacus, and Zelda.

We can all theory craft until are hands cramp up about how to use these three things but instead we just need a example. A living, breathing example even if it's not perfect in how to use these things and most importantly WIN with them in a tournament setting. By having this we can all copy that example and apply it to are gameplay and thus improve as a whole.

Once we do that then being unique will be helpful again.

 

[stealth3654]

I believe Sheik is definitely tournament viable. She has the tools to win, but it's like Tristan said: we don't have a role model for our style.

Also, this:

Right now we got a lot of things we don't use because of
A. We don't know how good they are, individually
B. We don't know how to use them, correctly
C. We cannot even use them regularly or dependently.

My problem with the chain are letters B and C. It can be devastating once you land it, but my problem is landing it consistently or not getting punished for trying. So when I enter a tournament, I won't use the chain simply because of letters B and C. I'm pretty sure that me and some other people asked before for a video of using the chain correctly in an actual match (preferably with both the chain lock and reverse chain lock), but no one provided us with one.

 

[gm jack]

I believe Sheik is definitely tournament viable. She has the tools to win, but it's like Tristan said: we don't have a role model for our style.

Also, this:


My problem with the chain are letters B and C. It can be devastating once you land it, but my problem is landing it consistently or not getting punished for trying. So when I enter a tournament, I won't use the chain simply because of letters B and C. I'm pretty sure that me and some other people asked before for a video of using the chain correctly in an actual match (preferably with both the chain lock and reverse chain lock), but no one provided us with one.

I've seen a 40% damage chainlock on a youtube video. That is about it. I only really use the chain for edge guarding, and then only rarely.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

So I was looking at the tier list the other day when I came to the realization.

Two out of the top 3 characters in Brawl can be grab released to DACUS by Sheik. Two out of the top three characters in Brawl have ENORMOUS trouble dealing with the chain. All 5 of the characters in S tier can be tilt locked to high damages.

I know it's been dismissed time after time......but we honestly need to implement the chain into our game. MK and Wario can be chain camped. Having said that the only thing that MK could reliably do is jump over Sheik and dair. Due to his slow aerial movement speed this gives Sheik plenty of time to retract, reset positioning, and resume chain camping. I feel that no one has just been determined on playing as gay as possible with Sheik. With Wario the situation is nearly the same. When you see him get on his bike....retract.

DACUS gives Sheik one of the more lethal grab release games in Brawl. Her projectile is very good having the damage of a smash attack not to mention it's laser priority. She lacks amazing range but she does possess adequate range in most cases with the ability to space well enough on block as to not get shield grabbed. Her moveset is ridiculously fast with low cooldown on the majority of her attacks. Her aerial speed allows her to put pressure on characters such as Wario who would otherwise feel at ease approaching through the air.

More and more i'm starting to truly get the feeling that Sheik is good in Brawl. Whereas before when the metagame was developing we were focusing on her nerfs from Melee I feel that we're now at the point where we can make the case for Sheik being TOURNAMENT viable in Brawl. For a character nearly in D tier she has arguably the best matchups against S tier in the game for a character outside of that tier<_<. The Ice Climber problem will always be in the equation but honestly how many Ice Climbers mains are out there? Less than 10?

I know i'm being sort of redundant and just repeating theories that we have gone over time after time but I truly feel this way. The problem is that no one wants to go the full length to take Sheik to that next level. We say Neo, Armada, and Light are the best Sheik players, yet none of them truly go solo Sheik and Neo and Light don't even really use Sheik in tournament. A person willing to play Sheik extremely gay and take the time to invest hours after hours into all of her techs........I really feel could go far with Sheik; and when I mean far I mean compete with the best of the best.

Really what weaknesses does she have? I only see two glaring weaknesses. Her recovery and her KO power. Even those two are not persay glaring weaknesses and even with her KO problems we have found ways around that...........k not found ways around but actually ound ways that were better. Even bringing Zelda into the equation I feel makes Sheik that much more of a tournament threat, although that's a whole other area.

Maybe i'm just a mid-level player that doesn't understand what it takes to go to that next level? Maybe i'm just delusional and still maintain a certain fanboyish bias that clouds my thinking? Maybe so. What i'm asking is does anyone else have this same optimism that I have with Sheik or am I the only one?

I'm getting tired of people talking like they know what I am and am not doing in tournament with Sheik


First of all, Candy was probably the 3rd or 4th best Snake at one point in Brawl. He beat Dojo at Apex. FYI, I beat him 2-1 in tournament with Sheik and 2 stocked him in the 3rd match

Light doesn't beat anyone good with Sheik so he shouldn't be included, that and his Sheik has a grand total of 0 offensive pressure.

Meep is ranked #1 in MD/VA, I beat his ICE CLIMBERS with Sheik alone and should've won the set on Rainbow Cruise vs his MK but I SD'd at 60% and still BARELY lost. I got 4th at that tourney with just Sheik. When Diddy Kong's are too good at running away from my Marth, I go Sheik. Ask AJB, I wreck him with Sheik because he can't ****ing run from me.

ALL Sheik, or some Sheik, if you can't USE Sheik better than I can it doesn't matter if I'm not using her the entire time.


This is all.


Edit: DA Dash Needle is too good ;D

 

[-Mars-]

Lol in that whole text Neo somehow found his name in there.....i'm glad at least that means he read it.

 

[SuSa]

If everyone just started playing like Gimpyfish, we wouldn't have this problem. /kidding

Anyways.. I do think Sheik is high B tier material. Hence why I use her as a secondary.

What people need to learn is to not be overly aggressive. Not all of your attacks can be followed up, this isn't Melee. Hit a few times, back off. Unless you are Armada.

I may start repping Sheik way more in tournaments, besides just friendlies and MM's. We'll see how it goes. (My Sheik has 2-3 stocked many of the people who come close to beating my Snake.... I'm just not confidant in using her in tournament yet)

I'll probably start using her instead of Marth. xD My Marth sucks.

EDIT:
Reading is great because Sheik can almost ALWAYS punish an opponent for making mistakes. Be it dash attack, needles, an aerial, a smash anything. It works great. I don't see enough Sheik's reading their opponents. If you fthrow, pause for a second, maybe SH. If they airdodge, FF and regrab them. If they jump, follow them and depending on the character go for an aerial, or wait for them to land to grab them. blah blah blah

 

[Leafplayer452]

If everyone just started playing like Gimpyfish, we wouldn't have this problem. /kidding

Anyways.. I do think Sheik is high B tier material. Hence why I use her as a secondary.

What people need to learn is to not be overly aggressive. Not all of your attacks can be followed up, this isn't Melee. Hit a few times, back off. Unless you are Armada.

I may start repping Sheik way more in tournaments, besides just friendlies and MM's. We'll see how it goes. (My Sheik has 2-3 stocked many of the people who come close to beating my Snake.... I'm just not confidant in using her in tournament yet)

I'll probably start using her instead of Marth. xD My Marth sucks.

EDIT:
Reading is great because Sheik can almost ALWAYS punish an opponent for making mistakes. Be it dash attack, needles, an aerial, a smash anything. It works great. I don't see enough Sheik's reading their opponents. If you fthrow, pause for a second, maybe SH. If they airdodge, FF and regrab them. If they jump, follow them and depending on the character go for an aerial, or wait for them to land to grab them. blah blah blah

If you ask me Sheik at best is bottom of B tier ( C and B tiers = mid tier)

 

[SuSa]

If you ask me Sheik at best is bottom of B tier ( C and B tiers = mid tier)

She has the capabilities of Zamus IMO. It just requires a slightly smarter player to bring her to that level. (For some strange reason people can't read, or if it's too hard (read: "lawl DACUS is hard") people don't do it)

Grab release > needles (fully charged) is better then throwing sometimes. Especially a grab at the ledge vs Sonic, it puts Sonic in a bad spot. It also can eat their second jump if they mash jump...

 

[Tristan_win]

She has the capabilities of Zamus IMO. It just requires a slightly smarter player to bring her to that level. (For some strange reason people can't read, or if it's too hard (read: "lawl DACUS is hard") people don't do it)

Grab release > needles (fully charged) is better then throwing sometimes. Especially a grab at the ledge vs Sonic, it puts Sonic in a bad spot. It also can eat their second jump if they mash jump...

Meh, I think sheik is better then Zss but that's just me.

 

[SuSa]

Meh, I think sheik is better then Zss but that's just me.

Sheik hit's a wall and has a few limiting thing. Zamus is finally getting a few limits. (Side-B went from godlike to "hope your opponent doesn't know how bad it really is") so only time will tell.

Right now (current tier list) I feel Sheik should be 1-2 spots below Zamus.

 

[Tristan_win]

Right now (current tier list) I feel Sheik should be 1-2 spots below Zamus.

Too true, although I think what will really define sheik growth is the powers of the users to control her decay and use it correctly. I'm not talking just ftilt but her dtilt and fair as well.

Currently we can't even control are ftilt correctly so there's little point attempting to learning the less useful dtilt and fair but in the end we will and then **** will go down.

 

[SuSa]

I have a feel for ftilt and fair. Also Brinstar is one of her most epic stages IMO.

Low stage, can control decay.... and no one bans it because no one knows anything about Sheik.

 

[Tristan_win]

I have a feel for ftilt and fair. Also Brinstar is one of her most epic stages IMO.

Low stage, can control decay.... and no one bans it because no one knows anything about Sheik.

It's actually not that much lower then the normal ceilling of the neutrals.

Brinstar: 81/74/68

FD: 82

^ I didn't collect that data I think a man name brickman got it with mario fully charge up usmash.

but yeah I can see that stage being **** with sheik and if they ban it pick luigi's the pillars can be used for the same thing and on some characters it make it so easy to chain camp them.

edit: oh in a few I'm updating my charts... again ^_^

 

[SuSa]

Thinkaman from the DDD boards. IIRC

Also getting a sweetspot on the platforms isn't horribly hard, so 74/68 is a lot lower then FD.

I still prefer Rainbow Cruise. Although besides SamuraiPanda I think I'm the only Snake to counterpick people there..... I just like the stage.

Luigi's is banned where I am. (Except sometimes doubles for some reason)

 

[Flamingo]

Chain isn't that good vs. MK. East and I played, and I triple powershielded into grab.. it's like automatic, even if you do hit the MK, you lose the return. You are now damaged for more, and also are in the air, where Sheik fails hard against MK.

Oh, but if the MK doesn't know the matchup, sure chain works fine.
Which is probably the case.
But don't count on it.
Disjointed hitboxes without priority that come out the same time will trade.

 

[-Mars-]

Chain isn't that good vs. MK. East and I played, and I triple powershielded into grab.. it's like automatic, even if you do hit the MK, you lose the return. You are now damaged for more, and also are in the air, where Sheik fails hard against MK.

Oh, but if the MK doesn't know the matchup, sure chain works fine.
Which is probably the case.
But don't count on it.
Disjointed hitboxes without priority that come out the same time will trade.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe East hasn't mastered his chain usage as of yet?

 

[Tristan_win]

Chain isn't that good vs. MK. East and I played, and I triple powershielded into grab.. it's like automatic, even if you do hit the MK, you lose the return. You are now damaged for more, and also are in the air, where Sheik fails hard against MK.

Oh, but if the MK doesn't know the matchup, sure chain works fine.
Which is probably the case.
But don't count on it.
Disjointed hitboxes without priority that come out the same time will trade.

HEY welcome back Flamingo!

Hate to see you coming out swinging though, respectfully I don't think it's possible to triple power shield as in it's not humanity possible not to mention you wouldn't be moving forward while you do it to into grab range.

To be honest that sounds like a fluke and nothing more.

 

[Snakeee]

Hey guys, random note, but I'm sticking solely to Sheik (plus very occasionally Zelda) for Metaknight now. I finally realized that this match up at a high level of play when both players know the match up, is infinitely more winnable than ZSS vs Meta at that level. I also have wayy more fun with it. I did good with her for the most part at my last tourney.

 

[-Mars-]

Good s*** Snakee. I would agree that it would probably be so since Sheik has a couple gimmicks that work in the MK matchup. I actually feel that ZSS and Sheik somewhat complement each other lol with ZSS performing better vs. G&W and Snake while Sheik performs better vs. MK and Falco.

 

[SuSa]

You forgot to mention that they are both sexy as hell.

Anyways...... I've been thinking of playing against Olimar's as Sheik. Is this stupider then trying to go Snake?

lol

 

[stealth3654]

Well, I guess you can try camping with needles and hitting Oli before he gets a grab on you. Plus, Olimar off stage vs Sheik = -1 stock for Olimar.

Edit: One thing I accidentally did in the Sheik vs Metaknight match-up was a grab release > later hitbox of the dash attack. I did this really close to the ledge (MK was just about to go level with the ledge off the stage) and it send MK horizontally to the blast zone at around 60 or 70%. Maybe earlier.

 

[Flamingo]

HEY welcome back Flamingo!

Hate to see you coming out swinging though, respectfully I don't think it's possible to triple power shield as in it's not humanity possible not to mention you wouldn't be moving forward while you do it to into grab range.

To be honest that sounds like a fluke and nothing more.

And I honestly didn' mean for it to, it just happened. Like I powershielded, which has the delaying effect on the aggressor, moved forward, shielded.. power shield again... and repeated that. It kind of was a fluke. But that's what i'd try to do anyway, obvously an aerial approach is stupid to try. We actually tried the chain multiple times and every time he lost the exchange.

Thanks for the welcome, I just got a wii, and I am getting back into the tourney scene in 5 days. I placed well at a few tournaments over the break and am back on my state PR's so all's good.

In that time, I plan on working on my Sheik, not now because honestly Sheik is a lost cause on wifi, as she is kinda input intensive, as is MK (the non-scrub kind). I've been playing Kirby and Olimar too on wifi cause they are teh lolz.

As you guys may know, I play MK mostly now, I really like the character, and am more than willing in giving matchup advice, as I have played a few Sheiks, and know her theory decently.

Anyways. I'm scared of OOS Bair. It's Sheik's best move IMO, and also needles are very effective against my personal MK style as I am very DEFENSIVE.

Idk what I'm trying to say..

Oh also.. call me insane, but Sheik's RAR HURTbox is sexy. hard to hit IMO comparatively to the rest of the cast.. so is her 2nd jump.. HURTbox is TOO SMALL.

On a side note, I really wish Sheik could use that dagger on her back >.<

Or pull off her braid and use it as a whip.

also, does anyone think we can do that Dair teleport like ZSS can on that Rob infinite?

meh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S5iAkGE0H8#movie_player
watch the part in the description

wifi anyone?

 

[SuSa]

I'll try to recreate that throw.

I know Sonic has a throw on DDD on BF, right side. spikes him. Same with Zelda.

 

[Dabuz]

You forgot to mention that they are both sexy as hell.

Anyways...... I've been thinking of playing against Olimar's as Sheik. Is this stupider then trying to go Snake?

lol

um, not really, its annoying, but can't be worse than 60-40 oli advantage, also, can someone explain how to do chain lock(i read guide but can't do it)


edit: also, im still waiting for someone to try and recreate that throw

 

[Flamingo]

interesting. Are the ones you are talking about caused by pummeling like MK also has on D3? or like the G&W Dthrow kind over the edge? *searches*

 

[Spelt]

Well, MK can be constantly. It is something all Sheik players need to practice. I can do it occassionall,y so it goes with daily DAUCS practice now.

If Snake air releases, he folows the same path as MK, so gets hit by the tipper.

Wario requires two steps forward then Usmash.

Well, i think snake air releasing is just a matter of luck. xD
So Sheik has a reliable kill move for the three top characters imo, though grabbing wario might be a challenge.

 

[stealth3654]

One thing I accidentally did in the Sheik vs Metaknight match-up was a grab release > later hitbox of the dash attack. I did this really close to the ledge (MK was just about to go level with the ledge off the stage) and it send MK horizontally to the blast zone at around 60 or 70%. Maybe earlier.

I didn't feel like I explained myself well enough, so I made a quick drawing on paint:

 

[Snakeee]

um, not really, its annoying, but can't be worse than 60-40 oli advantage, also, can someone explain how to do chain lock(i read guide but can't do it)


edit: also, im still waiting for someone to try and recreate that throw

I'd much more like to see the Atomsk throw there
at I think 3:54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9qAhllDyAI#movie_player

 

[#HBC | Scary]

It's really cool to hear that Snakeee is going to play more Sheik; that's going to be awesome, same with NEO, just great to hear. I've been strictly Sheik/Zelda since the game came out and I feel like I do extremely well against the top competition of FL. I just struggle with having the money all the time lol.

As far as the chain goes, I have been getting better with it by punishing spotdodges with it but I still can't do the SSE or SSW (south-southwest or east) motions good enough to rack the serious damage. Perhaps we should stop worrying solely on getting the lock and maybe look at it as a way to punish. If you can out think your opponent and know what they are gonna go next, the chain can certainly become viable. I look at the lock as an added bonus. Maybe we just start doing the chain instead of theorizing how to get the lock all the time?

 

[Spelt]

play around with it in friendlies until you can control it well enough?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

It's a start.

We just each have to find our own comfort zone with this weapon. I agree though with Marsulas; we HAVE to finally utilize this thing if we want to keep rising up the ranks.

 

[East]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe East hasn't mastered his chain usage as of yet?

lol, I haven't. Other than rare edgeguarding oppurtunities I see the move as pretty worthless, so I don't use it much. Dangling it off the edge, doesn't take too much skill, most of the time, [I guess I always get lucky] and the magic works itself : /

 

[choknater]

maybe ill start using chain when u guyz prove 2 me that it doesnt suck

been failing ever since brawl came out 8D chain sux!

 

[<π]

I think neo is lying, sheik can't possibly win against a competent IC.

chain has failed me every time I use it. I swear your' opponents are doing it wrong. espcially 3 frame aerial meta. Someone needs to recored correct use of the chain please.

 

[Flamingo]

Someone needs to recored correct use of the chain please.

IN TOURNEY*

otherwise.. vids are vids.

Reference: Saviorlegacy's Saltus 'combo'. Rofl.

 

[-Mars-]

I've used the chain in tourny vs. MK which is why I brought the whole issue with the chain up. I already explained that he can more than likely hit you out of it from above, which is why you retract it.