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A Brawl Gameplay Critique

Protocol9

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
25
A Brawl Gameplay Critique: A competitive standpoint



So, Super Smash Brothers Brawl comes out tomorrow
and before it does and we get millions of people claiming how great it
is, I’d like to put out my own critique in hopes to quell the hype
enough to get people to take a solid look at the game.
We’ve had reviews from nearly all the gaming sites and magazines by
now, each of them giving high scores to the game. Let’s face it
though, these reviews are not coming from the viewpoint of competitive
players and the competitive tournament scene community that has been
formed through smashboards. I’ve had the game since the
Japanese release and don’t get me wrong, it’s a great game
overall. However, I’m not going to be critiquing the whole game,
simply the gameplay in relation to a competitive environment, the
environment that will in the end, determine the games success outside
of a the financial area.

Before starting, I want to first say that I will be
comparing Brawl to Melee, and before anyone says that Brawl is not
Melee 2.0, well you’re wrong. Games, like everything else in
life, are judged by those around it, even more so games of a
series. Melee was Smash Brothers 2.0, Brawl is Smash 3.0.
It is how judging things work, by comparison.



*Note, everything in here is of my opinion and observations. Don't like it, feel free to disagree, just don't flame.



Movement

Tripping

First and foremost, to get it out of the way, is
tripping. There is no possible way to justify this being
implemented into the game. Your character will randomly fall down
at the start of a run. There’s no rhyme or reason to this, so
that someone may possibly find a use for it. It’s completely
random. There have been countless times where I’ve tried to
position myself for a killing blow only to fail at it because my
character decided he wanted to fall on his butt instead. What’s
worse is when this happens next to the opponent, and then they get to
smash you for free. If Brawl were a RTS, it’d be the equivalent
of one of your units randomly exploding for no reason. I could
rant on how detrimental and stupid tripping is to competitive play for
hours. Tripping in and of itself could completely ruin the
competitive nature of any game. While somewhat ignorable, its
just frustrating.

Dash Dancing

Dash Dancing is out. What this means is that
the ground game has lost a significant portion of its options. No
longer can you slowly approach in various intervals of retreat and
charge. No longer can you fake approaches and suddenly accelerate
from a slow press. The ground game has lost mindgames and options
by the loss of dash dancing. Some people may try to claim that it
is still in the game, but its not. Any form of “dash dancing” in
the game is either 1 of two things. The start of a run (meaning
you can only grab, jump, or running A out of it) or so small you are
basically moving in place.

Directional Influence

This is simply my opinion, but Di has become a
little ridiculous. I no longer feel that I know my moves are
going to kill my opponent. In Melee if you if you forward smashed
someone with fox at 100-110%, you knew you were going to kill them if
it was near the ledge, or at least put them into a position to be
edgehogged, regardless of how they DI’ed. In Brawl, hitting
someone with a move that can kill at 80-90% if they don’t DI, can be
survived up until nearly double that at 160-170% if they DI
correctly. It has that big of an affect. It causes
the game to have the feeling that kills are rarely caused, and more
like accidents. If I die under 125% I know it was my fault for
not simply DI’ing correctly. To see a move kill at 80% when
you’ve also seen it survived at 150%, well it makes you feel that kills
just happen, instead of being caused. It’s not so much you know
which moves kills, you know which moves have the potential to kill and
then you find out if they do when they hit. Also, yes I know
about diminishing returns on hits, but this happens even with zeroed
out moves. Some may like it this way. I personally think it
makes survival to easy and killing to hard.

Fast Falling

Not so much of a complaint here, but an
observation. Fast falling isn’t fast, its only less slow and not
easily noticeable until you get used to looking at it. This goes
with the whole game speed slow down.

Speed, Move Recovery, and Gravity

I group these three things together because they are what contribute to
the entire games flow and feeling of play. Gravity has been
normalized, there are no individual gravities. The speed of jumps
(not the distance), the speed of air movement, and the general feeling
of floatiness are all the same or nearly the same for all
characters. This removes a huge point in how characters differed
in Melee. Falling speed of some characters is still different
though, however the differences are minor because of the new speed of
the game. Its not slow (jigglypuff) versus fast (fox/falcon) its
now slow (jigglypuff) versus slightly less slow (fox/faclon).

As most everyone already knows, the overall game
speed has been slowed down. Don’t let people try to convince you
that they can pull off melee speeds or faster during combat. It’s
simply not true. What you may not know though, is that while the
game has slowed down, move recovery, both from attacking and recovery
from getting hit, has sped up, way way up in the case of hit
recovery. A few things happen because of this. One is that
follow up hits are almost if not completely gone. There are no
more double forward air hits with marth, or falling up-airs to up tilts
with fox, or down tilts to forward airs with sheik. Character
recovery is too fast. The only time you get more than a single
hit off, is from spammed moves (ie. lucario’s forward air,
pits/lucarios up-tilt). Combo’s simply don’t exist, or are
spammed moves (more on this later).

Another problem with the speed decline versus move recovery increase is
in taking advantage of an opponent’s mistakes. In Melee you could
run at a marth, jump and get him to forward smash, jump above it, fast
fall behind him and back air or neutral air. This was a
mindgame that takes advantage of causing your opponent to make a
mistake. Try doing the same in brawl, and by the time you fall
fast enough to be in range to hit, your opponent has shielded or moved,
or decided to hit you with another move. Taking advantage of
people’s mistakes is hard or nearly impossible depending on the move.

Positioning is also a lot harder due to the slow
speed versus move recovery time. Because of the game speed, you cannot
surprise your opponent by rushing in or under or past them.
Anything you do is too slow to come as a surprise. They see it
coming a mile away. Take for instance a player in melee, hopping
up and down while his opponent is recovering from a hit that sent him
up more than off the stage. The player is waiting for the
opponent to get in range, but the opponent is unsure exactly when the
player will attack. Out of the hopping, the player double jumps
to back air. In Melee this will work, because the speed at with
the double jump comes out is enough to catch someone off guard, or
before their character can prevent it. In Brawl the speed of the
jumps are not fast enough to catch your opponent off guard.



Attacks

Mismatched Move Sets

For the most part, Brawl move sets feel as thrown
together and mismatched as they come. It feels as the creators
simply made a move for each input, yet made no attempt to actually link
these moves together to form a cohesive character. Nothing links
anymore. In Melee, character’s had a central theme around which
their moves were built. Take Luigi for example. Most of his
moves would send a character upwards. Down smashes lead into
forward airs or back airs, neutral airs into the same. Throws
lead into smashes, or aerials. A correct up-air could lead to a
forward air. Moves were meant to work together. One move
set up another move, some moves where for damage, some for
killing. They had thought and flow. Think Captain
Falcon spike bouncing people off the stage into a knee. There was
fluidity, there was purpose nearly all of a character’s moves. In
Brawl this fluidity doesn’t exist. Moves either send an opponent
too far so that they can’t be hit, or not far enough so that they in
turn hit you back. Moves don’t lead into one another, not even at
different percents. There is no rhyme or reason to why a
character’s moves do what they do. They all simply hit and
nothing more. These mismatched move sets will be a theme in the
next several points.

Diminishing Returns

You may have heard by now that Brawl implements
diminishing returns on attacks. Yes this existed in Melee, but 2
things were different. The move counter was easily reset and even
reset itself upon doing the same move and the diminishing returns only
affected % damage not knockback. Some try to justify this
by saying that someone can no longer spam a single move to both deal
damage and kill. Frankly I think they are wrong. People
will use the moves that have the greatest affect at hitting without
being hit back, just because it does less % or knockback isn’t going to
remove a good move from being spammed, it just means the matches will
take longer. Why use a move that has a 50% chance of hitting and
a 50% chance of getting you hit when you can use one that has a 100%
chance of hitting and 0% chance of getting you hit. This
feature, while neat in theory, is in my opinion, laziness on the parts
of the developers. If they wanted us to use the full range
of moves they should have made every move useful, not try to force
players to use crappy moves.

Throws

Through Smash Brothers and Smash Brothers Melee we
have seen to ways in which throws can be useful. Killing in
Smash Brothers, and pulling off combos in Melee. In Brawl we have
neither of these. Brawl throws rarely lead into any move, and
very few of them can actually kill at desirable %. Throw simply
do what the name implies now, they throw people, almost always a
useless distance, sometimes even resulting in you getting hit because
you threw someone and they went nowhere.

Combos

As stated before, combos are pretty much
non-existent unless they consist of a single move spammed over and over
again. What I consider a combo: A linked set of moves that cannot
be avoided. Examples: Marth- up throw->up
tilt->neutral air, Fox- running A->up tilt->up air,
Jigglypuff- up throw->up air->back air, Donkey Kong forward grab
up throw-> up air-> B. These things are rare to
non-existent dependant on character in Brawl. Almost if not all
“combos” you see in Brawl or people talk about in Brawl are avoidable
if the person getting hit would simply DI correctly and get out of the
way. This is all chalked up to the mismatched move sets. It
leads to a feeling of never having control of a match, more so that you
are simply, trading hits with the opponent.

Crouch Cancelled Down Smashes and Runs

Gone. While Crouch Cancelled Down
Smashes is mainly something to simply get used to than anything else,
its an unnecessary removal from the game. There’s no point to
have removed it. Cancelling runs by Crouch Cancelling
however, is a major reduction of approach options. In Melee you
could run, press down, and forward smash or down smash. It was
another trick to add to the approaching and movement mind games of
Melee. It’s simply been removed and so have the options.

New Air Dodge System

It has its ups and downs, though more so its down’s
to this player. Before the air dodge was controllable, able to
fake out people ledge guarding you or useful in dodging aerials, now in
Brawl, air dodging has become more of a preemptive dodge. You
can’t control it, it simply dodges while you continue on your
path. IE if you are falling and dodge, you still fall while
dodging. Yes, you can act after its over, but the dodge
lasts fairly long and since its not really controllable, rarely leaves
you in a position to attack back (assuming the other player hasn’t
already recovered from his attack which is normally the case).
I’d say a fair or near fair trade, though its yet to be fully seen.

Killing and Ledge Guarding

Like I said before, killing doesn’t feel like
killing. You know which moves have the potential to kill
(ranging from few with sonic to almost all with Ike) and when you land
them, simply hope it kills because your opponent messed up the
DI. You don’t kill people, they just die.

Ledge Guarding, 90% of the time and for 90% of the
characters is out. Moves almost always send your opponent up and
out, so that they are way way above the stage as they make their
return. Because of the floating nature of the game, your
opponent will rarely be under the actual stage, even when this happens,
most characters have multiple jumps as well as ridiculous recovery
moves. On the occasion that a character does need to up-b
to grab the ledge, its automatic sweet spot meaning you cannot guard
from on top of the stage. Even rolling from grabbing the ledge is
out for the most part. Ledge hog frames are so small, that by the
time your roll is finished, they haven’t fallen far enough not to grab
the ledge (if they fell any at all), and simply grab the ledge.
Guarding an opponent who is off the ledge, is near impossible.

B-Move Sets That Make no Sense

This also goes back to mismatched move sets.
One would think though that since there are only 4 B moves that their
would be some thought put into them. Its often not the
case. Take Pit, his forward-b and down-b both reflect
projectiles. Don’t know why this was necessary, doesn’t make
sense. Metaknight is another example. All 4 of his
b-moves are recoveries, yes all of them. Why a character with
multiple jumps, and flying needs 4 types of recoveries just beats me.

Power Sheilding

It's very easy to power sheild in Brawl. In
fact more often than not you can easily power sheild attacks and then
instantly attack back. This tends to lead to the defensive game
outweighing the offensive game if pulled off right. That's my
opinion anyways. Power sheidling also no longer reflects
projectiles. A good thing since it's so easy to power sheild, a
bad thing because those without projectiles have no hope of interupting
them other than by attacking head on.



Wrap Up

Issues

# Approaching

- Tripping

- No Dash Dancing

- No Crouch Cancled down smash

- No Cancelling Runs with Down

# Movement

- Slower

- Faster hit recovery

- Normalized gravities

# Fighting

- Mismatched move sets

- Lack of acceleration for attacks

- Lack of ledge game

- Power sheilding

- Defensive buff

- Lack of combos

The Big Picture

What all of this means once you combine it
all. Is that what we get in Brawl, is a decline in options.
The ability to approach the player has been vastly reduced.
Because of this, the general speed of the game, and the eaiser power
sheilding, playing a defensive game has gotten a huge boost.
Coupled with the fact that you can't punish a player for mistakes or
build damage or even death through combos. The game boils down to
a bout of trading hits. Playing the defensive end means you force
your opponent to attack, which are all readable, putting yourself in
the advatage. Retreating attacks, such as Ike's foward air, seem
to be the best at keeping yourself free from harm while hurting your
opponent. As much as I want to view otherwise, Brawl looks
like it may evolve into a camping game. The potential for
offensive ability is limited while the potential for defense has
risen. Removing options that were in Melee has done nothing but
limit possibilities. The more you limit possibilities, the less
competive things can get.

What This Means for Balancing

I fully expect all of these issues to lead to a very
skewed character lineup. Someone is going to find an exploit in a
character or two and that will become the staple top end
character. Already we have King Dedede who can chain throw nearly
anyone nearly infinitely, supposedly. When no other character can
cause 60% damage all at once, this will prove extremely
powerful. When better exploits come out, well then we'll
see the game's true colors.

Offensive camping will, in my mind, become
imbalanced. Pit is a perfect example of it. His arrows
shoot extremely fast, travel faster, are controlable, and do decent
knockback. The fact that lag time behind them is almost
nihl, you can attack almost directly behind an arrow. You force
your opponent to approach and then stop them before they get to near,
rinse and repeat.

Character's have distinct advantages over other
characters. Brawl is rock-paper-scissors complex style. I'm
not talking about 60-40 stuff in brawl, more like 80-20. Certain
characters beat others, easily. This means maining a single
character will probably be obsolete in time, and the sets may simply
come down to who gets the better match up first round, because after
that its charactr counter picking.

In my opinion, I see the game boiling down
completely to character matchups and camp tatics. The top end
character(s) will be just that, top end. Unlike Melee where top
characters have ranged through, Jigglypuff, Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik,
Peach, Luigi, Samus, Pikachu (don't believe me go watch Chu Dat versus
Cort), Ice Climbers, Brawl top end will be seeing maybe 4 top
characters.

Will Brawl take over for Melee

Most likely, it really depends on how the community
takes to Brawl. Does it deserve it? Honestly no, Melee is
the better game for competition. Brawl is new though and
that is a big thing. Most likely it will win out as the less
serious crowd of Melee who always had the mindset of "I'll get good
when Brawl comes out" takes over simply because Brawl is an easier game.



Items

Items will once again not be used for competitive
play. With the ease of which they are grabbed, the faster
characters have a huge advantage getting them. Not to mention the
fast characters have a hard time killing due to lack of killing moves,
is now remedied with the use of items. Smash Balls are also
imbalanced ranging from the near useless (kirby) to the instant death
nearly unavoidable (marth).



Wrapping Up

Brawl is a fun game and most people will love the
game, but it does not have the competive edge that Melee had. I
just hope that people will not blind themself by hype and the "noob"
crowd and give the game credit where it is not due. Brawl is not
Melee improved, its not even a new game, it is Melee Devolved,
Melee simplified. I do hope to be proven wrong during the course
of the next few months now that the game is being released in
America. However, for now, Brawl is the game the developers
believed Smash was meant to be, too bad they didn't know what it should
have been.



Because master fighters should trip in battle. >.<
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
In b4 this thread is flooded with n00bs saying "Brawl isn't Melee 2.0" and "It's too soon to tell".
I hope someone actually tries to refute the logical arguments presented in this thread instead of discrediting the poster (ie. engaging in an ad hominem attack).

PROTIP: No one wants Brawl not to be as competitive as Melee, but it just doesn't seem like it will be.
 

Monshou_no_Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
421
Location
Oklahoma
I agree with all of your points, but at the same time the reason I will play Brawl competitively over Melee is because Brawl has WiFi. Brawl and Smash 64 with other people online is far more competitive than Melee with only CPUs to play against.

With that said, it is important to concentrate on making Brawl more competitive for people that intend to practice online.

Melee where you are allowed to go to tournaments to get better is more competitive than Brawl, of course, but I still rest my case in why I am choosing Brawl.
 

WastingPenguins

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
827
Location
Ohio
First of all, why is your "critique" spaced in such short lines like it's a god**** sonnet?

Second, do you actually own the game? This reads like a laundry list of every complaint that people have brought up on Smash Boards since the game was released last month. I'm not saying those complaints are invalid (I haven't played the game yet) I'm just curious if you are writing all of this based on videos rather than firsthand experience.
 

Xengri

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
404
Location
Orlando, FL
Jesus, I don’t believe I read all of that.
I recommend reorganizing you’re opening post. It’s well spaced out but, the short lines are overdoing it.
Fix that so it won’t look so dang long and, intimidating. You'll get more people to actually read it.

I agree with most of what you've said as of right now (though I'd like to hear a more in depth explanation of this "Rock-Paper-Scissors complex" from you).
However, I'm not going to put my final judgment on Brawl just yet, so I can't say that I'd call it Melee devolved but, I can see your reasons to think so.
It’ll be interesting to see how this thread turns out.


Btw WastingPenguins read the post.
He said, “I’ve had the game since the Japanese release” in the first paragraph.

Edit: Read the OP twice, so I added more to the comment. I'll get back to this thread in the morning.
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
Great post. I agree with everything you've said (unfortunately) and I too hope to be proven wrong. I've been playing the game for 3 weeks now and I think - from a competitive standpoint - it is significantly flawed.

That being said it is still plenty of fun to play and I hope it proves even more competitive than melee, I just don't see it happening!

Hope you don't get flamed too hard by the people who don't understand :p Good luck!
 

sHy)(gUy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
558
Location
Metairie LA
lol, u just dont get it, comparing this game in any way to meele is where u fail...

smash is a simple game of knocking ur opponent off the screen using the options u have.
smash 64 is one version of smash, meele is another form, and brawl is the latest form.

if uve been been playing meele competively for any extended amount of time its going to distort the way u look at brawl....
pointing out the differences in meele and brawl is one thing (a good reason for this topic), but trying to compare how this game will be played competively is ridiculous, this game is bigger and more popular than meele, there will alot more tournaments for this game, if the game isnt deep enough to be competive then it wont last, but from what ive seen and i predict is there is room for growth in the competive world for brawl ....
 

Misto-Roboto

BRoomer
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You do realize not all the reviews were positive and you do understand that those reviews are not meant for you or I in the competitive community? They are meant for joe-schmoe who is trying to decide what is the best bang for their buck when trying a new game. You shouldn't be surprised by this.

and some elements within Brawl do make sense, just not to you, because you're looking at it from a narrow view, the competitive view. Not saying this view is bad per say, I'm saying the way you're looking at it is only going to set you up for disappointment. It is like you're looking for a justification to why you'll be losing to the new competitive players that will emerge from Brawl.
 

Fustin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
8
Location
Flora, Illinois
I've seen a few combo videos on youtube and from what I've seen they aren't spamming the same move over and over again like you say.
 

OrlanduEX

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,029
You do realize not all the reviews were positive and you do understand that those reviews are not meant for you or I in the competitive community? They are meant for joe-schmoe who is trying to decide what is the best bang for their buck when trying a new game. You shouldn't be surprised by this.

and some elements within Brawl do make sense, just not to you, because you're looking at it from a narrow view, the competitive view. Not saying this view is bad per say, I'm saying the way you're looking at it is only going to set you up for disappointment. It is like you're looking for a justification to why you'll be losing to the new competitive players that will emerge from Brawl.
Elements such as?

And OF COURSE he's looking at it from a competitive point of view. He made that clear from the get go. This is no IGN review.

Also, please stop making this weak argument that all the Melee vets are suddenly lost and helpless in Brawl. We don't need advanced techs and such to still win. We Melee vets will rip every aspect of Brawl apart and then deem how worthy it is of competitive play. We will make the Brawl metagame, not some over zealous n00bs.

We just choose to acknowledge that Brawl may not be as competitive as Melee in the long run, which the fanboys don't.

@ Fustin

Most of those "combo videos" don't contain true combos.
In fighting games, "combo" refers to a string of attacks that is inescapable once the first hit lands.
Thanks to the greatly reduced hit stun in Brawl, it is almost impossible to combo anything.
 

Misto-Roboto

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Elements such as?

And OF COURSE he's looking at it from a competitive point of view. He made that clear from the get go. This is no IGN review.
And I have no qualms with that but he needs to be reminded that he is going to almost always set himself up for disappointment if he thinks in such a narrow fashion..

Also, please stop making this weak argument that all the Melee vets are suddenly lost and helpless in Brawl. We don't need advanced techs and such to still win. We Melee vets will rip every aspect of Brawl apart and then deem how worthy it is of competitive play. We will make the Brawl metagame, not some over zealous n00bs.

We just choose to acknowledge that Brawl may not be as competitive as Melee in the long run, which the fanboys don't.
They are unfortunately, I'm sorry you're too blind not to see this. I'm just saying his approach shows he's looking for a scapegoat because no real decent competitive player would give two ****s because a game differs from its predecessor. This is just documentation with a list of reasons why he will lose. I've never heard a decent player get good by complaining about a game.

EDIT: Whoops forgot to answer a question you posed. Elements such as the randomness of items and crazy settings. Yes, they do suck in a competitive light, but many can see why it was applied in the game.
 

Smooth Criminal

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This reads like a laundry list of every complaint that people have brought up on Smash Boards since the game was released last month.
WastingPenguins sums it up rather nicely. Not saying that your points are invalid, OP, but they are just nothing more than a glorified rehashing of the countless Melee versus Brawl threads that populate this forum. Did we really need another thread to talk about this?

But since I'm here, I might as well say something about it. And before it is even asked...yes, I've played it a few times. I haven't been playing it for a month straight like some of the people here, but I've played enough to garner some measure of an impression. Now, I am not saying that it's going to be the amazing, technical juggernaut that was Melee. With the way things are set up, it's kind of hard to get REALLY technical with Brawl. No amount of optimism or appreciation for the game will alleviate this. Things have been downplayed, simplified to a "t," so that Joe Blow can pick up the game and run with it.

I do have hope for the game, though, even while I stand in agreement with the OP's points. Only time will bring out Brawl's full potential. While it may not be as great as Melee, I think it'll be a great game in its own right.

I like some of the changes that they made with Brawl. I'll spare everybody the fanboyism and keep it down to brevity: I like the physics. I like the roster (except for ROB). I pretty much like everything. Except for tripping; I'm actually looking forward to getting the game tomorrow, cracking open the case, and looking into the instruction manual just to see if that ****ing tripping mechanic is in there---just so I can spit on the **** page.

>.>;

Smooth Criminal
 

BlackWhiteOrange

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 20, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Melbourne, Australia
I agree with everything you've said, and barring some game-breaking new technique(s) or the game is played sped-up (like 150% speed, as was possible in melee's training mode) in tourneys, or they update the game to put in L-canceling or the like, barring some sort of miracle, the game will not be able to hold a candle melee.

The fundamental problem here is that competitive smashers represent a very tiny portion of the population. Nintendo, revelling in their newfound position in the industry as the company that caters to the 'casual gamer,' has decided to make smash noob-friendly. Sakurai himself has said that certain members of his development team had played upwards of 10 000 matches of smash. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that they were unaware of the existence of the professional smash community. It is very likely that they did not want it developing again.

Why would they want to make it impossible to play super smash bros. brawl at a professional level? Why would they want to simplify it and narrow the divide between pros and scrubs?

The simple answer, is online play.

In an interview, Sakurai was asked why a ranking system was not implemented in Brawl:

IGN: Smash Bros. is a very competitive series, but you have avoided detailed online stat tracking and leader board ranking systems for Brawl. Why is that?

Masahiro Sakurai: Well, I'm sure that people hitting ranks one through 10, were there such a ranking system, would be incredibly pleased with it and having a lot of fun. But, you know, it's not fun for everybody involved per se if such a system were to exist. I was asked this time around to try and get Wi-Fi into the game and so certainly we've managed to get wireless battles so you can play with people in other places. But it's really a game in my mind that has been designed to be played with a smaller group of people -- be that a group of friends or within your house a group of family members -- competing in the small circles and not really worrying about winning and losing so much as the process that gets you there. That is where the fun should hopefully be for a lot of people. It can also be kind of trying and painful for some people who want to be at the top and think that they're really good at Smash and they look at their online ranking and they're the one-hundred-thousandth best Smash Bros. player -- those are some of the reasons I've decided not to go with leader boards.
At first, this argument seems logical, but it belies a corrupt underlying mentality. They think that letting people getting too good at the game would ruin the fun of the scrubs, the noobs and the people too lazy to even attempt to improve. Their logic is that it is not fair to these people to let people be ranked based on skill, or, by extension, to allow people to become skilled, as it would detract from the experience of Brawl for the untalented who chose to play online. The creators of Brawl, in attempting to cater to the 'casual gamers,' have forgotten about the loyal fans who saw them through Nintendo's depression, the bleak days near the end of the N64's lifespan and throughout the Gamecube's existence. They have stopped caring about those of us who actually play the game, and don't just buy it because it contains brightly-coloured Nintendo characters and worlds.

Unless this imbecilic mindset is cast off, another competitively viable smash game will never see the light of day.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
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Location
La Jolla, CA
Your points are all valid.

Nevertheless, I'm excited for this game. Even if its not going to be as deep as melee, I need something else to play for a while. And you know what? I didn't like melee either when it came out. Either way, a year from now, I don't think I'll regret buying this game.
 

Fustin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
8
Location
Flora, Illinois
Most of those "combo videos" don't contain true combos.
In fighting games, "combo" refers to a string of attacks that is inescapable once the first hit lands.
Thanks to the greatly reduced hit stun in Brawl, it is almost impossible to combo anything.
Ahhh, I see what you mean now.


And "tripping" sounds annoying and pointless.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
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Your points are all valid.

Nevertheless, I'm excited for this game. Even if its not going to be as deep as melee, I need something else to play for a while. And you know what? I didn't like melee either when it came out. Either way, a year from now, I don't think I'll regret buying this game.
QFT.

Sorry. I just HAD to make a placeholder with Shady's comment, 'cuz I agree.

Smooth Criminal
 

Wuth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
16
Location
Southern Illinois- 1v1, no items, stock
I do have hope for the game, though, even while I stand in agreement with the OP's points. Only time will bring out Brawl's full potential. While it may not be as great as Melee, I think it'll be a great game in its own right.
Smooth Criminal

Thank you for saying this. The game hasn't even had the chance to evolve yet and people are already condemning it. Give it time. Melee wasn't built in a month, and I severely doubt Brawl will be. I have faith that the competitive community will come around and develop this into a whole other monster.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Chapel Hill, NC
I agree with everything you've said, and barring some game-breaking new technique(s) or the game is played sped-up (like 150% speed, as was possible in melee's training mode) in tourneys, or they update the game to put in L-canceling or the like, barring some sort of miracle, the game will not be able to hold a candle melee.

The fundamental problem here is that competitive smashers represent a very tiny portion of the population. Nintendo, revelling in their newfound position in the industry as the company that caters to the 'casual gamer,' has decided to make smash noob-friendly. Sakurai himself has said that certain members of his development team had played upwards of 10 000 matches of smash. It is unlikely, in my opinion, that they were unaware of the existence of the professional smash community. It is very likely that they did not want it developing again.

Why would they want to make it impossible to play super smash bros. brawl at a professional level? Why would they want to simplify it and narrow the divide between pros and scrubs?

The simple answer, is online play.

In an interview, Sakurai was asked why a ranking system was not implemented in Brawl:

<insert text here>

At first, this argument seems logical, but it belies a corrupt underlying mentality. They think that letting people getting too good at the game would ruin the fun of the scrubs, the noobs and the people too lazy to even attempt to improve. Their logic is that it is not fair to these people to let people be ranked based on skill, or, by extension, to allow people to become skilled, as it would detract from the experience of Brawl for the untalented who chose to play online. The creators of Brawl, in attempting to cater to the 'casual gamers,' have forgotten about the loyal fans who saw them through Nintendo's depression, the bleak days near the end of the N64's lifespan and throughout the Gamecube's existence. They have stopped caring about those of us who actually play the game, and don't just buy it because it contains brightly-coloured Nintendo characters and worlds.

Unless this imbecilic mindset is cast off, another competitively viable smash game will never see the light of day.
THANK YOU. You've just destroyed ANY argument AGAINST this guy's post.

Sakurai has essentially catered to a crowd where "pick up and play and have fun all the time" is king; where people will always feel good about losing because they knew that they had some kind of chance even when they hadn't worked hard at being good. If we were to go to an analogy here...

One guy climbs to the top of mount Everest, and he's worked his entire life to get there. So he decides to climb from the OTHER side of the mountain. Even though there is a mountain is made from the same material, and still has a **** load of snow, the man cannot help but feel disappointed. Why? Because they put elevators reaching to the top, where people can marvel at passing through the most difficult parts...in a matter of 20 minutes. Despite having not worked for it, or not done anything to help themselves claim victory over the mountain, the tourists have made it to the top.

(don't say it's flawed; the top =/= the top of the competition...the mountain represents the battle, the summit represents victory, and the elevator represents the ******** system that brawl has implemented to go against the grain of Smash)
 

Flamesamurai

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
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philly
TL'DR but what i did read made me think well who the **** are you? And so what if things are gone now. New things will be discovered and in 2 years i will look back and think well this guy was wrong. Also i think im seeing some whining here because you have grown Dependant on these "advanced" techs i cant do any of them no l canceling no wave dashing none of it. I wanted a new game in the SSB series so i could start at a fairly level playing field and advance with everyone else at the fairly same pace.

But you people whineing about things like "This is gone what are we gonna do!?" it just angers me it makes me disgusted that people went this crazy and became reliant on these "advanced" techs are now cant deal with them being gone. I went too one tournament and i lost every match there but in those 5 or 6 hours i became much better then i had been before i went. Well this is gonna be disregarded as someone who doesent know what they are talking about. but i forgot my point so seeya.

From a 13 year old.
 

skuzzel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
97
They made this game to test out communism at a very small scale...gay
 

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
I understand comparing Brawl to melee because its the sequel, but the problem is this:

an aspect of the game being changed from Melee =/= Bad.

that's the problem with this Debate, we just say "well, its changed from Melee so its bad, combo's in smash don't work the same as they did in melee so its bad"

that's just flagrant narrow minded fabricated opinion, and its not good for the community
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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OH
I agree that Brawl is not as competitive as melee and it's quite possible that it never will be. However, I do think that in the end Brawl will be more balanced, not less, than melee. Although character match ups will matter I don't think it will to the extent that you say. I also disagree with your assesment of combos in brawl. While combos are very different in Brawl than they were in Melee they still seem to exist and I wouldn't call them just spamming one move. Aerials seem to come out faster in brawl which in many cases removes the need for shffling which was more or less taken out. I love playing melee but I think comparing Brawl to melee just won't satisfy anyone. They are very different games just in basic physics if nothing else and trying to do stuff you did in melee in Brawl simply won't work as well. That being said I have to say I'm pretty glad for the removal of so called inescapable combos because frankly there's nothing more disturbing to me than watching marth chaingrab a fox player from 0% to death. I think Brawl has its pros and cons. If anything I think tripping will make its competitive play too limited more than anything else in it. I'd still rather be optimistic about it though. maybe somebody will find a way to make the game more competitive.
 

Circle_Breaker

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
292
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sububububububurbs
Yeah I totally agree with your points, especially the ridiculous DI and uselessness of throws. It's like they looked at everything that gave good players advantages in Melee and neutralized it.


But it wasn't a mistake. I mean, not by Nintendo's standards. We will all still buy the game and noobs will love being able to run with this stuff. We have to pretty much face the fact that competetive Smash won't exist UNLESS they put out so many sequels that eventually the only people left playing are competetive players and then they learn that they have to cater to us. That'll be the day, though.
 

Xengri

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
404
Location
Orlando, FL
TL'DR but what i did read made me think well who the **** are you? And so what if things are gone now. New things will be discovered and in 2 years i will look back and think well this guy was wrong. Also i think im seeing some whining here because you have grown Dependant on these "advanced" techs i cant do any of them no l canceling no wave dashing none of it. I wanted a new game in the SSB series so i could start at a fairly level playing field and advance with everyone else at the fairly same pace.

But you people whineing about things like "This is gone what are we gonna do!?" it just angers me it makes me disgusted that people went this crazy and became reliant on these "advanced" techs are now cant deal with them being gone. I went too one tournament and i lost every match there but in those 5 or 6 hours i became much better then i had been before i went. Well this is gonna be disregarded as someone who doesent know what they are talking about. but i forgot my point so seeya.

From a 13 year old.
First off, you should always read the whole post if you’re going to comment on it.

And another thing, sorry to crush your hopes and dreams but, any good Melee player is still good without Adv.techs. It’s not a “leveled playing field”, your not going to be able to beat a highly skilled melee player just case he lost Wavedash or whatever. There’s more to it then adv.techs, which you would know if you would have been more a part of the competitive scene. Don’t make assumptions about us, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
The removal of some adv.techs (though unnecessary) is not the problem.
It’s the generally dumbed down gameplay that’s irksome.
I couldn’t careless about the Adv.techs taken out (they’ll be replaced in the future, destroying you’re “leveled playing field” anyway).




I understand comparing Brawl to melee because its the sequel, but the problem is this:

an aspect of the game being changed from Melee =/= Bad.

that's the problem with this Debate, we just say "well, its changed from Melee so its bad, combo's in smash don't work the same as they did in melee so its bad"

that's just flagrant narrow minded fabricated opinion, and its not good for the community
I wasn’t aware there was more then one definition for a combo when referring to a fighting game.
Dashing doesn’t work the same way as it did in Melee. It never made you trip.
Can’t we judge that as bad?

Throws in Melee were used to chain together attacks, now they send you’re opponent to far if they’re higher then 15%
Can’t we judge that as bad?

Hitstun has been reduced so that barely any attacks are a safe approach.
Can't we judge that as bad?

No one is saying that Brawl is bad.
I’d put money that everybody is going to buy it and, enjoy it. I know I will.
However, you can’t deny that the TC’s points are valid. It's base design doesn't look like it'll be as competitively viable as Melee.
Hopefully, we'll find things to walk around that.
 

Destiny Smasher

BRoomer
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Searching for my own way of the ninja.
Wrapping Up

Brawl is a fun game and most people will love the
game, but it does not have the competive edge that Melee had. I
just hope that people will not blind themself by hype and the "noob"
crowd and give the game credit where it is not due. Brawl is not
Melee improved, its not even a new game, it is Melee Devolved,
Melee simplified. I do hope to be proven wrong during the course
of the next few months now that the game is being released in
America. However, for now, Brawl is the game the developers
believed Smash was meant to be, too bad they didn't know what it should
have been.
Wow, that is, quite possibly, one of the most arrogant things I have ever seen a Melee fanboy say. I like how you assume that the minority group, the over-enthusastic, obsessed with breaking the game, unhealthily compulsive about teeny tiny bits that only matter TO that small minority group, are bashing the developers for making the game THEY, the DEVELOPERS, wanted to. "Too bad the creators created the game the way they intended to?" Um, what?
The developers know what Brawl "should be" a lot better than you since they devoted two, three years of their lives MAKING the thing, and the notion that some angry fan somehow knows better than the guys who PROGRAMMED the game is quite arrogant.

I'm not saying you're wrong in anything about balance, etc., I'm just saying that you're being pretty full of yourself and arrogant in phrasing your opinion like it's a fact.
And while I'm sure there's evidence backing up your claims, the point is that you're acting like Smash "should" be designed specifically for competitive reasons. Did it occur to you that maybe the Smash developers have been trying to avoid overly obsessed competition? Because it seems fairly obvious to me that they want to avoid all of that.

Why do you think the online system is gimped compared to other stuff?
Because, as they've said, they want to avoid the negativity that is inherent to online competitive fanbases: aka, people like you who are smug and arrogant and only care about winning and manipulating the game in ways it wasn't intended to be, then rubbing it in people's faces who just want to have FUN: fun, ya know, what video games are DESIGNED for?

And yea, I guess this is a "n00b" complaining about the psychotic hardcore fanbase to this game -- I guess it's counterintuitive to me that a "fanbase" complains so ****ed much and states their opinions like facts. If you don't like Brawl, don't play it. Why is that so hard?
If a million other people like Brawl and you don't, that doesn't make them "n00bs" and it sure doesn't mean the game "doesn't deserve" the attention. If it didn't deserve it, then it wouldn't GET it.

But then, I guess that's the reason WHY so many people, such as I myself, tend to avoid this community and pick on it is why the developers made the game less "competitive": because to them, a GAME is probably designed for FUN, not for a bunch of obsessive compulsive ADHD folks to gather around and digitally compare virtual pe*** sizes as they COMPLAIN about a game they're playing for hours on end, but they still keep playing it.

Maybe the issue is that Smash Bros. is designed as a game first and a sport second, and you all wish it was the other way around -- in which case, I dunno, maybe you should stop whining and go find a game that suits your standards of competition, like Virtua Fighter or something. Or maybe you should get over it and realize that it's just a game.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
1,035
Location
La Jolla, CA
@destiny smasher,

The OP's post is thoughtful, articulate, and well-reasoned. Maybe you disagree with him, but there's no reason to start resorting to personal attacks. Theres been a little too much of that lately.

You seem to be angry at him for critiquing the game, claiming that "the notion that some angry fan somehow knows better than the guys who PROGRAMMED the game is quite arrogant". Nowhere in his original post did he claim to know better than the developers, merely to disagree with some of their decisions. As a consumer of the game, he has the right to evaluate the product.

Also notice that the OP concludes that Brawl is a fun game. What more do you want? Is it unacceptable to you that people should conclude that this game isn't perfect? You claim not to care about the competitive aspect of the game, but his post deals ONLY with the competitive aspect of this game, not the casual game which you presumably enjoy. Therefore, none of it applies to you, he doesn't even disagree with you, so why are you so angry?
 

SFJake

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
166
Location
Canada, Quebec
This is the first time in a while I'm feeling like making such a rude post to an inteligent posting, but I'll do it anyway since I'm pissed like there is no tommorow.

Stop trying to find thousands of holes in the game. Technically, what the guy said is right for the most, some is opinion, but mmh... its nothing but negativity. AND NO ONE NEED THAT. This is a god da*mn game, created for what? For FUN. Take it like it is, stop acting so negative, don't try to spread it to everyone, and go back to have fun.

And I'm da*mn tired here. The game won't change, its what it is, so speaking in such way only make some or yourself hate the game more. This is not needed. I'm so tired of this. I'm not saying you can't point out bad things. But this is just ridiculous.

Maybe I'm overreacting, I don't care. But that was not a needed topic at all. I just am tired of this crap. Can anyone play to have fun now?
 

Destiny Smasher

BRoomer
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Messages
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Searching for my own way of the ninja.
Actually, yes, he DID claim to know better when the developers, ya know, at the end of the post. :p

And THAT is what I was angry about. That Sakurai and his team supposedly didn't know how to make the game the way it "should" have been made.
I'm just sick and tired of the competitive crowd whining so much about what has been taken away and changed and somehow missing the fact that Brawl is BRAWL, not Melee 2.0, but a new game.
Just because it doesn't have the things the Melee competitive players aren't used to doesn't mean it's "not worthy" of attention and doesn't "deserve" to be played competitively.

Melee took away things present in 64, but it introduced new tactics -- Brawl is a new game, and instead of complaining about all of the negatives, I wish people would start realizing that there's a LOT of new techniques to replace the older ones that got removed. I imagine the developers did this in the hopes of more advanced techniques that are INTENTIONAL and thus more controlled rather than glitches and physics-manipulation.

And I'm angry not at WHAT he said but HOW it was said.
It's as if the past 2-3 years of 100 people's lives aren't being respected by a lot of the people the game was made FOR because they chose to make it more inviting to a wider group of people and tried to include more balance in ways people obsessed with Melee aren't used to. Did they succeed? I don't know, and I kind of don't care as long as it's still fun and I CAN have competitive matches without feeling inherently worse off than other players. But whether they succeeded or failed in balance and fine-tuned gameplay, Brawl deserves respect as a game in and of itself.

It's made with quality design, much better balance than MOST fighters out there, TONS and TONS of content, and loads of fanservice. The amount of complaining I see aimed at this game seems quite unwarranted when you compare Brawl to video games at large.

SFJake seems to feel me -- why can't you people just play for FUN?
Do you NEED to stab holes in something that is DONE and MADE and could (and likely will) bring you hours and hours of fun? Is there any REASON to be so negative to a game that has so much quality packed into it compared to what most developers push out these days, just because it's not perfect? It never will be.
Melee wasn't, Brawl isn't, and nothing ever WILL meet your perfect dreams, so what's the point in dwelling so much on what you feel is "technically" "incorrect" about it?
Just appreciate that so much work from so many people went into it and have fun.

Again, I'm not arguing the points made here -- I honestly don't care either way -- it's the ATTITUDE that I have problems with.

It's the
However, for now, Brawl is the game the developers
believed Smash was meant to be, too bad they didn't know what it should
have been.
kind of attitude that really disturbs me and is disrespectful to all of the hard work, dedication, and passion that was poured into this game.
 

timbers92

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
98
The first post had some pretty good points. But they all seemed like they were all negative. I know in the end that he said the game, overall, was fun, but there has to be something that will make this game competitive. I don't think wavedashing was discovered within three months of the release of melee.

I play soccer and I play very competitively. A lot of the people I play with are really good. Soccer is basically their life. They are obsessed with it. They sometimes forget that soccer is a game. People invented games for entertainment. Entertainment exists because we like to have fun and feel happy. If we are playing a game and not having fun, what are we doing? The best, most respectable players are those that play for fun and get good that way. They don't look at all of the negative things. Overtime new, more effective techniques are discovered that make playing more fun for them.

My point is games are for fun and Brawl should be too, new techniques will be discovered, and Brawl will be Brawl. Nobody designed it for one person, the developers made it for everyone.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
1,035
Location
La Jolla, CA
Enough of the "why can't people just have fun" arguments. Not everyone finds the same things fun. Its not a crime to be disappointed when you feel a good game could be better.
 

Koga

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
352
Xengri said:
I wasn’t aware there was more then one definition for a combo when referring to a fighting game.
Dashing doesn’t work the same way as it did in Melee. It never made you trip.
Can’t we judge that as bad?
Ok, that's is wierd i admit, but its just something we'll learn how to adjust to

As far as combos go. Why do they have to be like traditional fighters to be any good? Maybe, comboing is a major part of the advanced combat interaction. I've watched loads of videos of brawl by the better players on these boards. And judging from the way the physics and gravity have changed in brawl, the advanced combat interaction is now the action/reaction dance. I encourage you to go watch the video of Gimpy playing as MK against his friend playing as Diddy. Those fights show case how the arial Action/Reaction battle works. There is less hit stun in Brawl, so stop trying to string together long lines of attacks and then whine that Brawl is less deep when it doesn't happen. You have to accept the fact that when ever you hit your opponent, you're probably going get hit back, so plan accordingly. Bait out their attacks so that your reactions > their actions. That can be incredibly deep and open up HUGE mindgames. But no one thinks about it this way 'cause they're to busy trying to play like it has the same physics as Melee when it doesn't. Open your mind to the unconventional aspects and possibilities of the game before you judge it. Comparing it to melee is one thing, trying to play it like its melee and then stamping it with "UNCOMPETATIVE" when it isn't is very bad judgement

Xengri said:
Throws in Melee were used to chain together attacks, now they send you’re opponent to far if they’re higher then 15%
Can’t we judge that as bad?
No, that's not bad, it just changes the use and role of throws in combat, why is that a bad thing? a tool from melee now has a different role, that' doesn't mean its bad. Saying its bad is just you deciding you're unwilling to evolve and adapt to the changes


Xengri said:
No one is saying that Brawl is bad.
I’d put money that everybody is going to buy it and, enjoy it.
However, you can’t deny that the TC’s points are valid. It's base design doesn't look like it'll be as competitively viable as Melee.
Hopefully, that'll change.
They are not valid because they keep pretending that if something is different from melee that its bad, this is simply not the case different from melee =/= bad.
 

Monshou_no_Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
421
Location
Oklahoma
Again, I say: Brawl with WiFi will be much more competitive than Melee with just CPUs for a lot of people. It is hope for people that do not have access to a Melee competitive scene yet.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
What you say sounds entirely pessimestic. I was expecting a section of what are some positive things brawl has over melee, but nay, its all negative.

and becuase of that, brawl sounds like it will be horrible for competitive play. Brawl really seems like the developers just want to keep the game as a casual fest.
 

Xengri

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
404
Location
Orlando, FL
Normally I would argue back with you Koga, however today’s different.

The game will be released in a matter of hours (if you’re in North America).
Honestly, trying to change your mindset would be a waste since, you’ll have the opportunity to experience the game and, develop your own opinions soon.

I’m taking a break with these type of threads.
At lest, until more people (myself included) will be able to better understand what people like the TC are trying to say.
 

bludhoundz

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
525
Location
New York, NY
I think the changes will simply make Brawl a more positional game. Since throws don't lead to combos, throw your opponent in the most advantageous place for you that you can. If opponents keep DI'ing up, juggle them, if they don't, smash them out of the arena (as an oversimplified example).

I believe Brawl is going to be a slower game in terms of competitive play than Melee; matches might last a lot longer due to the positional play rather than combos. Arguably that will be worse for competitive play. There was no way that everyone was going to be happy with Brawl though; complaints were inevitable, because people have different opinions.
 

CrazyShaman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
102
Location
AZ
I got to about
Dash Dancing

Dash Dancing is out. What this means is that
the ground game has lost a significant portion of its options. No
longer can you slowly approach in various intervals of retreat and
charge. No longer can you fake approaches and suddenly accelerate
from a slow press. The ground game has lost mindgames and options
by the loss of dash dancing. Some people may try to claim that it
is still in the game, but its not. Any form of “dash dancing” in
the game is either 1 of two things. The start of a run (meaning
you can only grab, jump, or running A out of it) or so small you are
basically moving in place.
before I realized that you were wrong. DD is harder, but is certainly not out.
Didn't read anything past that since I've gotta go to dinner in a few.
 
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