A Brawl Gameplay Critique

[BigRick]

*coqslaps thread*

 

[OrlanduEX]

They are unfortunately, I'm sorry you're too blind not to see this. I'm just saying his approach shows he's looking for a scapegoat because no real decent competitive player would give two ****s because a game differs from its predecessor. This is just documentation with a list of reasons why he will lose. I've never heard a decent player get good by complaining about a game.

Stop failing. The OP is not posting points as to how he will now lose. He is posting points as to how Brawl has become less competitive than Melee. I don't see ANYONE posting ways in which Brawl is more competitive than Melee, just angry fanboys ranting about the competitive Smash community and hanging on to the dream that now we are all on the same playing field.
This dream is a lie. Get that into your head. We competitive Smashers owned in Melee due to the way we approached the game, and nothing will change in Brawl. We owned because we play to win. We don't restrict ourselves by stupid honor codes that tell us to "play the game as Sakurai intended it" or not to use "glitches."
Yea Brawl isn't Melee 2.0 and all that bs, but we competitive players haven't changed. Our "play to win" mind set hasn't changed. We used advanced techs in Melee because that was what" playing to win" meant in Melee and if there are any advanced techs to discover in Brawl, we will discover them and own with them. It will be business as usual.

And even if there aren't advanced techs, we will still own over-zealous n00bs who think that now we are all the same. We will use even the most basic techs of the game more effectively than any scrubs. It will be business as usual.

TL'DR but what i did read made me think well who the **** are you? And so what if things are gone now. New things will be discovered and in 2 years i will look back and think well this guy was wrong. Also i think im seeing some whining here because you have grown Dependant on these "advanced" techs i cant do any of them no l canceling no wave dashing none of it. I wanted a new game in the SSB series so i could start at a fairly level playing field and advance with everyone else at the fairly same pace.

But you people whineing about things like "This is gone what are we gonna do!?" it just angers me it makes me disgusted that people went this crazy and became reliant on these "advanced" techs are now cant deal with them being gone. I went too one tournament and i lost every match there but in those 5 or 6 hours i became much better then i had been before i went. Well this is gonna be disregarded as someone who doesent know what they are talking about. but i forgot my point so seeya.

From a 13 year old.

First of all, this critique was from a competitive stand point. If you don't like it, you didn't even have to post here. This wasn't for you.
And this guy WASN'T EVEN TALKING ABOUT ADVANCED TECHS! He was talking about the GAME MECHANICS THEMSELVES!

rant

more rant

Guess what? The TC is a competitively minded player. He was hoping that Brawl would prove more competitive than Melee. Why shouldn't he be displeased that Brawl doesn't seem to be turning out the way he hoped?
If Brawl turned out to be a super complex, highly competitive game, all the scrubs would whine that Sakurai ruined Brawl or some other bs.
How is it wrong for the TC to disagree with Sakurai's design decisions for the game?
Is Sakurai some kind of holy god on high who can do no wrong? Please.

And please don't come to the Brawl TACTICAL discussion and tell competitive players to "just have fun." All of us are going to have fun, but what if we think competition is more fun than just playing randomly?

Ok, that's is wierd i admit, but its just something we'll learn how to adjust to

As far as combos go. Why do they have to be like traditional fighters to be any good? Maybe, comboing is a major part of the advanced combat interaction. I've watched loads of videos of brawl by the better players on these boards. And judging from the way the physics and gravity have changed in brawl, the advanced combat interaction is now the action/reaction dance. I encourage you to go watch the video of Gimpy playing as MK against his friend playing as Diddy. Those fights show case how the arial Action/Reaction battle works. There is less hit stun in Brawl, so stop trying to string together long lines of attacks and then whine that Brawl is less deep when it doesn't happen. You have to accept the fact that when ever you hit your opponent, you're probably going get hit back, so plan accordingly. Bait out their attacks so that your reactions > their actions. That can be incredibly deep and open up HUGE mindgames. But no one thinks about it this way 'cause they're to busy trying to play like it has the same physics as Melee when it doesn't. Open your mind to the unconventional aspects and possibilities of the game before you judge it. Comparing it to melee is one thing, trying to play it like its melee and then stamping it with "UNCOMPETATIVE" when it isn't is very bad judgement

First of all, you need to acknowledge the fact that combos are not just different. They are essentially non-existent. This is fact, not opinion.

And you aren't posting NEARLY enough evidence to support this action/reaction idea that you are presenting. As far as I can tell, you are just HOPING that Brawl turns out that way.

All fighting games rely on hit stun to work right. Melee and Brawl are no different.
If your opponent recovers from an attack immediately after being hit because there isn't enough hit stun and actually attacks you during the recovery time of the attack, then attacking actually puts you at a DISADVANTAGE. Moves that reflect this property are referred to as "unsafe" in fighting games. These attacks are used at a minimum because they give an advantage to your opponent rather than yourself.
In Brawl, ALL ATTACKS ARE UNSAFE. This means that sitting around and blocking or running away and camping are better than going in and attacking because attacking puts you into a situation to get hit.

Turtling and camping do not foster a competitive environment and they never have.

No, that's not bad, it just changes the use and role of throws in combat, why is that a bad thing? a tool from melee now has a different role, that' doesn't mean its bad. Saying its bad is just you deciding you're unwilling to evolve and adapt to the changes

Throws are not just different, they are are less effective. Thus they just aren't worth using as much as before. This is a fact.

They are not valid because they keep pretending that if something is different from melee that its bad, this is simply not the case different from melee =/= bad.

The TC logically and intellectually explained how various aspects of Brawl do not foster competitive play. This was not opinion based. This was all factual. He is not just looking at it from a Melee perspective.
He is observing that hit stun is reduced, thus combos, which are integral in all fighting games, are nearly absent in Brawl.
He is observing that throws in Brawl don't work well at all.
He is observing that tripping is f***ing dumb.
He is observing that DI is excessively effective which makes kills really hard to pull off consistently, and they were hard already.
He is observing that the game is slower and thus it is harder to catch people by surprise with attacks. They have more time to see it coming.
He is observing that ledge guarding is not just different, but less effective because recovery in this game is so much easier.

These are facts, not opinions. It doesn't matter what perspective he's looking at the game from.

Now please use facts to refute the argument that Brawl by virtue of of it's very design was made to be less competitive than Melee.

 

[shadydentist]

On the spectrum of negative feedback, OP was very much on the 'critique' side, as opposed to the 'complain' side. Whether or not you agree with him, he gave out very specific examples to support his arguements.

 

[Koga]

First of all, you need to acknowledge the fact that combos are not just different. They are essentially non-existent. This is fact, not opinion.

And you aren't posting NEARLY enough evidence to support this action/reaction idea that you are presenting. As far as I can tell, you are just HOPING that Brawl turns out that way.

All fighting games rely on hit stun to work right. Melee and Brawl are no different.
If your opponent recovers from an attack immediately after being hit because there isn't enough hit stun and actually attacks you during the recovery time of the attack, then attacking actually puts you at a DISADVANTAGE. Moves that reflect this property are referred to as "unsafe" in fighting games. These attacks are used at a minimum because they give an advantage to your opponent rather than yourself.
In Brawl, ALL ATTACKS ARE UNSAFE. This means that sitting around and blocking or running away and camping are better than going in and attacking because attacking puts you into a situation to get hit.

yes, combo's are non exisiten, but they have been replaced by another advanced Combat interaction, and if you fail to see that, then you're just narrow minded, just watch some videos for crying out loud, or play the game openly and stop trying to play it like melee.

and second, when all attacks are unsafe, none are. you just have to approach it differently, and if you plan accordingly, then turtling and camping are never good options.

Throws are not just different, they are are less effective. Thus they just aren't worth using as much as before. This is a fact.

Less effective at what? oh wait, you mean less effective at starting combo's Which don't exist, and countering certain attack strategies. Hmm, sounds like melee uses to me.

what is and isn't effective is relative. You failed at refuting this point. They are a different tool than they were in melee, but they are still a tool nonetheless

The TC logically and intellectually explained how various aspects of Brawl do not foster competitive play. This was not opinion based. This was all factual. He is not just looking at it from a Melee perspective.
He is observing that hit stun is reduced, thus combos, which are integral in all fighting games, are nearly absent in Brawl.
He is observing that throws in Brawl don't work well at all.
He is observing that tripping is f***ing dumb.
He is observing that DI is excessively effective which makes kills really hard to pull off consistently, and they were hard already.
He is observing that the game is slower and thus it is harder to catch people by surprise with attacks. They have more time to see it coming.
He is observing that ledge guarding is not just different, but less effective because recovery in this game is so much easier.

These are facts, not opinions. It doesn't matter what perspective he's looking at the game from.

Now please use facts to refute the argument that Brawl by virtue of of it's very design was made to be less competitive than Melee.

Again, the FACT is that those FACTS are ground in opinion. Whats good for the way competative games HAVE functioned in the past may not be how the physics of Brawl work, that doesn't mean it isn't a competative game, Competativeness and Depth is defined by the tools you have to choose from. There are plenty of tools to chose from in brawl and if you can't see that then you need to open your eyes a little wider and see them.

once again, just because you can't play your characters with the same Psycology that you played them in melee doesn't mean the game is less competative.

 

[OrlanduEX]

yes, combo's are non exisiten, but they have been replaced by another advanced Combat interaction, and if you fail to see that, then you're just narrow minded, just watch some videos for crying out loud, or play the game openly and stop trying to play it like melee.

Please give me some examples of these magical new techs that have replaced them. Also, address some of my other points please. I addressed all of yours.

and second, when all attacks are unsafe, none are. you just have to approach it differently, and if you plan accordingly, then turtling and camping are never good options.

Bulls***. Unsafe is unsafe. You can't redefine it. If a move gives your opponent free frames during which they can attack you, it is unsafe. If this applies to all moves, then all moves are unsafe and attacking your opponent is actually a bad idea. Any competitive player will instead wait to be attacked by the opponent instead of attacking since attacking is not beneficial. This does not foster competition.
Please present some ways to prevent foes from camping against you considering it will actually be a dumb idea to attack you.

Less effective at what? oh wait, you mean less effective at starting combo's Which don't exist, and countering certain attack strategies. Hmm, sounds like melee uses to me.
what is and isn't effective is relative. You failed at refuting this point. They are a different tool than they were in melee, but they are still a tool nonetheless

*sigh* Please tell me some of these new magical uses for throws now. If they are not useful for combos anymore, what are they useful for?

Again, the FACT is that those FACTS are ground in opinion. Whats good for the way competative games HAVE functioned in the past may not be how the physics of Brawl work, that doesn't mean it isn't a competative game, Competativeness and Depth is defined by the tools you have to choose from. There are plenty of tools to chose from in brawl and if you can't see that then you need to open your eyes a little wider and see them.

Stop avoiding the fact that Brawl was programmed to be less competitive than Melee. It may turn out more competitive. We don't know how the metagame will develop, but right now based on the facts that I have presented it is OBVIOUS that Brawl was intended to be less competitive than Melee. Until we find ways to change it with advanced techs or whatever, it is impossible for Brawl to be as competitive as Melee based on its inherent limitations.
I agree with your definition of depth, but the burden of proof is on you to present some of these magical new tools that will suddenly make up for all the ways in which Brawl is limiting.

once again, just because you can't play your characters with the same Psycology that you played them in melee doesn't mean the game is less competative.

*facepalm*
We are talking about the mechanics of Brawl here and observing that they are limiting in comparison to Melee. This is a fact.
We are just observing based on facts that Brawl by virtue of its design is programmed in a way that is limiting in comparison to Melee.

This means that the metagame is less likely to develop into one that is as competitive as the Melee metagame.

Until we can find some new techs to make up for all the ways in which Brawl is limiting (if that's even possible), it is a fact that Brawl can't be as competitive as Melee. The programming of the game itself makes this impossible.

 

[Weed]

spell gameplay correctly and then maybe ill begin to pretend to take you the least bit seriously

 

[OrlanduEX]

spell gameplay correctly and then maybe ill begin to pretend to take you the least bit seriously

WOW! A spelling error! The OP must be f***ing moron! I guess I should completely ignore his post!

 

[Weed]

WOW! A spelling error! The OP must be f***ing moron! I guess I should completely ignore his post!

At least someone gets it.

 

[CivicSmash]

Ive been playing the last hour and the gameplay does seem a lot different, I cant believe that the falling speeds are now basically uniform..........when I roll it seems like I end up in the wrong direction.

 

[DAHKTERem]

guys guys, shut the F*CK up

This game is F*CKING horrible. ZERO mindgames, ZERO techniques, ZERO chance for it being competetive.

 

[Protocol9]

Wow, way too much to bother trying to quote. So sorry in advance if I miss responding to something.

First of all, to restate and clarify. This is a COMPETITIVE CRITIQUE ONLY. I am in no way discussing anything other than the COMPETITIVE aspect of the game.

I'll start responding first by addressing the concept of competitive level. The competitive level of a game has to do with two things: community and competitive threshold. Without a community, the competitive threshold of a game may never be reached quite simply because there was no competition. However, when a game does have a community (as Melee did have and Brawl will have), the competitive level of a game is determined by the competitive threshold of a game. To use an easy to see example, take Rock-Paper-Scissors versus Chess. Now the competitive threshold Rock-Paper-Scissors is below that of Chess. However, both games require a community to reach that competitive threshold. If the Rock-Paper-Scissors community reaches a competitive level above Chess, its not because Rock-Paper-Scissors has a higher threshold, its because the community was better at bring out its potential. If both communities are equal, then the game with the higher threshold will come out with the higher competitive level. The same is true for Brawl and Melee. Both games have/will have a huge community capable of reaching the competitive threshold. Brawl's threshold however is far below that of Melee (as I see it at this time), and for no valid reason. Because of this, no matter how large of a competitive scene Brawl has, it will not reach the competitive level found in Melee. Smash has always been a series where, "easy to learn, hard to master" has been true. Brawl's level of "master" has significantly dropped. In other words, Brawl is not as deep of a game.

To the guy who feels my statement of "Brawl is the game the developers
believed Smash was meant to be, too bad they didn't know what it should
have been." It's not arrogance. It's merely a industry fact. A game's potential is never determined, seen, or even envisioned by the programmers and makers of a game. A game's potential is determined by its players, and more specifically, its hardcore players. No one puts more hours into a game than the hardcore players. Take Melee for instance. Nintendo spent what, 2-4 years making it? Maybe 1/10 of that time was actually spend playing it. The competitive Melee scene has been PLAYING the game for 6 years, day in and day out, tweaking and pushing and discovering the games full potential. If anyone knows how a game should be made, its not the developers, its the players. Ultimately a game lives or dies in the players, not the developers. Did you notice that not one person on the Brawl staff had been in the tournament scene? They had years and years to get in touch with competitive players, the competitive scene, they could have even used smashboards as a research tool but none of this happened. The developers kept their narrow view of what they thought Smash is intended to be, and did not seek to confirm it with those who actually play the game with enthusiasm.

Competitive play should never detract from casual play. If it does then you have failed. Melee's competitive play did not detract from casual play, so why would they fear it happening with Brawl? Nintendo knows how to make a casual game, there is not doubt about it. They know how to make a casual game with a enormous competitive side. Why they didn't do that again is beyond me. As far as online play is concerned, competition only ADDS to online play, it doesn't detract. If it detracts, then you messed up on your ranking system. Consider WC3, the level system works out in such a way that normally, noobs play noobs and pros play pros. It's an effective system that provides play for all levels of players. Why not use it for Brawl?

A few have mentioned reliance on advanced techs. You should notice that I included neither Wave Dashing, nor L-canceling in my critique. One because these were not entirely necessary to competitive play (though they added options), and two because they were not gameplay mechanics. The critique has nothing to do with advanced techniques and everything to do with mechanics because mechanics cannot change, only be dealt with.


an aspect of the game being changed from Melee =/= Bad.

Very true, however my points are not simply about being changed from Melee, but also why the change is bad. Comparing to Melee is simply a way for people to see how it was, how it is, and why the change is bad. The major reason why the changes are bad, is simply the lack of options. Removing options and choices in a fight without a valid reason only detracts from a games depth.


Someone mentioned not pointing out improvements in competitive gameplay in Brawl. Well the reason is, I haven't seen much of anything that I can consider an improvement. The one technique that I have found that to me is an improvement, is the ease in which one can move from a run into a back air. I love being able to do that. Other than that though, its only a minor new gameplay option in the face of a much larger detraction. Any other techniques that have been discovered all border or exist in the defensive realm of play or are simple new ways to do old things, Shield Dashing as an example of both. Defensive options are not a good thing when they begin to overwhelm offensive ones. When defense > offense you get camping. When offense > defense you get a fight.


The Rock-Paper-Scissors theory

Someone asked about this so I'll go a little more into detail. I like to play Lucario, however, there are certain matchups in which trying to win with him is like climbing a cliff. I can play King Dedede and easily 2 stock him most of the times, when I play a Marth however, its an uphill battle. I'm lucky if it goes down to the last hit and I win or even if I get one stocked. It's a hard fight. If i switch to Pit however, fighting Marth is fairly easy and I can 2 stock Marth. King Dedede can also easily fight Marth where as I can beat Dedede easily with Lucario. It's not like melee hard, where its difficult and challenging, these fights are real struggles. Imagine a fox playing a good jigglypuff in Melee, only the fox can't wavedash or l-cancel. The fight is really one sided. This is a good measurement on how the fights are in Brawl. Certain characters plain beat other characters in even skill player matchups. You could say Marth > Lucario > Dedede > Marth by the gap of 1 full stock - 2 stock or more.

Note this is just an example and may be wrong, but the more I play the more I feel this is the case with character match-ups within Brawl. I also believe this was 100% intended by the developers.

Here's to hoping Brawl proves me wrong. Right now I just can't see it.

 

[arrowhead]

very nice posts.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I agree that its probably not gonna be as competitive as Melee, but too bad for Sakurai, it's still going to be where competitive players who go to tournaments can four stock a noob any day of the week, so him changing Meele on puprose just for noobs online was a waste of time.

The main thing that separates these random people with competitive players are mind games. The technical stuff was a huge part of it, and because most of that stuff is gone, the competitive scene won't be as competitive I agree, but at the same time Sakurai won't get his wish of everyone being equal online, so It upsets me that he did that all for nothing.

 

[Koga]

Ok wow, i have my copy now, been playing it all day and.... Wow, i was just hoping i was right, ****. I thought you guys were exagerating a little bit but you weren't, you were just..... BALD FACE LIEING.

Dang try to just accept the changes and figure out ways to adjust accordingly. I mean seriously, try Infinate Short hop airdodging or Dashing shield cancel, or just sheild cancel anything really. Oh, and on certain attacks, if you airdodge right before you hit the ground it interupts the move and cancels lag! then you do an infinate jump airdoged into an arial FTW!!! XD awsome.

wow, Bald face lieing. Open your mind please guys. There are tons of options here.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

To the guy who feels my statement of "Brawl is the game the developers
believed Smash was meant to be, too bad they didn't know what it should
have been." It's not arrogance. It's merely a industry fact. A game's potential is never determined, seen, or even envisioned by the programmers and makers of a game. A game's potential is determined by its players, and more specifically, its hardcore players.

I'm going to go out on a limb and ponder whether Nintendo WAS making Brawl for the players.... The players that were always extremely vocal about everything anti-advanced technique, and thinking they would lose sales if they did not fix what many felt was a problem, even though it wasn't.

 

[arrowhead]

Ok wow, i have my copy now, been playing it all day and.... Wow, i was just hoping i was right, ****. I thought you guys were exagerating a little bit but you weren't, you were just..... BALD FACE LIEING.

Dang try to just accept the changes and figure out ways to adjust accordingly. I mean seriously, try Infinate Short hop airdodging or Dashing shield cancel, or just sheild cancel anything really. Oh, and on certain attacks, if you airdodge right before you hit the ground it interupts the move and cancels lag! then you do an infinate jump airdoged into an arial FTW!!! XD awsome.

wow, Bald face lieing. Open your mind please guys. There are tons of options here.

you apparently missed the point

 

[Koga]

What point? they said the engine was too limiting, i've played the game substantially today, and its not even limiting. Yes its more floaty but you adjust to that in a matter of minuets. Now, that said, some characters are REALLY Floaty but that's not limiting its just a different style of arial play, the floaty characters have way more mobility and options in the air then they do on ground and they all usually have some move to get them to the ground quicker (Zamus is really floaty, but dair to airdodge to short dashed or Shield canceld utilt or usmash or grab, or whatever) some moves are a little different so you can't use them the same way you did in melee. For example, fox seems way faster than he was in melee but is Bair has some startup lag so its best used as a move once you've lost control of the air and when you're coming back down.

Oh, and all the stuff about the game being slower is crap. Its a little wierd cause of the change in physics, but just feel it out, you'll learn the timing of gravity and stuff.

also, since the airial battle is the most important it seems right now, grabs that send them far are a good thing. and the hit box for all grabs seems way smaller.

 

[ChopTheRed]

Good critique. I agree.

 

[schizosid]

Kudos to you, topic creator, you've given voice to all of the little doubts hiding in the various dark corners of my subconscious. Granted these doubts have are mostly based on YouTube videos, rather than on experience playing the actual game (come on, I've only had it for a day). Nevertheless, I find it hard to forgive Brawl for punishing my aggressive playing style and for having very poorly implemented Wi-Fi support (limited options; slight, but persistently annoying lag). Those of you championing the latter would do well to upgrade your internet connections.

I am a busy man so, to save time, I would like to confirm all of the points made by the OP. The fast hit recovery/short stun time has been especially problematic for me.

As a random aside, I would like to point out that all Brawl tournaments (I'm not really sure what that means, at this point; I suppose I'd call that thing in Worcester, a little while back, a tournament) so far have been won by Melee pros. My own, albeit limited, experience with the local GameStop midnight release event only confirms this trend. Thus, I would be careful in making claims such as: " you're looking for a justification to why you'll be losing to the new competitive players that will emerge from Brawl". It seems to me that competitive Melee players will do just fine in SSBB.

Then again, after seeing a few guys spending their time in pointless lamentation of how "Melee will never be as good at the old SBB had been", I think that I'll give Brawl a little bit more time before I condemn it and move on to some other competitive game...like "darts".

 

[Kizzu-kun]

If you can't do things in your way, you need to use your intelligence to make things work out.
This is a secret in everything that you are doing, done or going to do.

But if the changes made you don't thought in new possibilities, I guess you have a problem.

 

[Finn Macool]

Try doing the same in brawl

Stop trying melee techniques and saying that brawl is bad because they dont work, its youre fault for using techniques which dont work in the new game not the games fault, and I understand that you were critiqueing brawl relative to melee but that doesnt mean that you play it the same way and get angry that it doesnt work. Its like watching the sequal to a movie and getting angry that the ending is different. Also the review was woefully onesided, if you want people to beleive what you are saying you have to present both sides of the story and then say why you think youre right

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Man, people are unable to cope with change more than I thought.

 

[Koga]

Stop trying melee techniques and saying that brawl is bad because they dont work, its youre fault for using techniques which dont work in the new game not the games fault, and I understand that you were critiqueing brawl relative to melee but that doesnt mean that you play it the same way and get angry that it doesnt work. Its like watching the sequal to a movie and getting angry that the ending is different. Also the review was woefully onesided, if you want people to beleive what you are saying you have to present both sides of the story and then say why you think youre right

we who are about to brawl salute you.

but in all seriousness, you're right with that movie analogy. I just wish everyone else could see the light and open their minds. It is still smash, but its got a new physics engine for crying out loud, of course the conventional wisdom of how you approach the game has to change.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Stop trying melee techniques and saying that brawl is bad because they dont work, its youre fault for using techniques which dont work in the new game not the games fault, and I understand that you were critiqueing brawl relative to melee but that doesnt mean that you play it the same way and get angry that it doesnt work. Its like watching the sequal to a movie and getting angry that the ending is different. Also the review was woefully onesided, if you want people to beleive what you are saying you have to present both sides of the story and then say why you think youre right

You missed the point. He's not talking about techniques. He's talking about game mechanics.

The truth is that the game mechanics themselves were programmed with the intent of making Brawl much less of a competitive game than Melee. Everything seems to try to limit the options available to us, thus reducing game depth. This post corroborated this idea in full.

However, people like you keep bringing up the empty "Brawl is not Melee 2.0" argument instead of looking at the facts. And of course the critique was one-sided! He made that clear from the beginning! It's a COMPETITIVE critique. If you aren't a competitive player, why did you even respond?

 

[Koga]

You missed the point. He's not talking about techniques. He's talking about game mechanics.

The truth is that the game mechanics themselves were programmed with the intent of making Brawl much less of a competitive game than Melee. Everything seems to try to limit the options available to us, thus reducing game depth. This post corroborated this idea in full.

However, people like you keep bringing up the empty "Brawl is not Melee 2.0" argument instead of looking at the facts. And of course the critique was one-sided! He made that clear from the beginning! It's a COMPETITIVE critique. If you aren't a competitive player, why did you even respond?

Look i have the game now, and most the the arguments against it are crap. The engine doesn't limit it, you're just still trying to play as though it was melee's engine. That was the purpose of his post. You're watching the sequel and complaining cause the ending is different. The engine is largely based off momentum, and there are tons of tricks you can do with the Airdodging and shielding systems. However, you refuse to open your mind, and you will make up some excuse and/ or change the goalposts of this debate everytime a legit point is brought up so there is no need for you to respond to these topics anymore. Thank you.

 

[Randomg]

I agree with most of the original post... I don't see this game lasting very long I guess is the best way to put it.

Playing 1-on-1 in brawl was like when I played after I first started to play melee, no short hopping, no l-canceling, no wavedashing, no di. The difference is, with melee, they were all there to give the game depth. In brawl, those things don't exist as far as everyone can tell, and I am leaning more and more towards beating all the single player stuff in brawl and then trying to convince people to go back to melee whenever people want to play smash (they probably won't because now all my friends that weren't as good as me can compete in the randomness of brawl).

Stop trying melee techniques and saying that brawl is bad because they dont work, its youre fault for using techniques which dont work in the new game not the games fault, and I understand that you were critiqueing brawl relative to melee but that doesnt mean that you play it the same way and get angry that it doesnt work. Its like watching the sequal to a movie and getting angry that the ending is different. Also the review was woefully onesided, if you want people to beleive what you are saying you have to present both sides of the story and then say why you think youre right

If you're going to compare it to movies, melee being the matrix and brawl being reloaded comes to mind....

Even better might be the original star wars trilogy from what I can tell, 1st one was awesome because it was really new and different, the 2nd was actually a good movie, the 3rd was a rehashed 1st. All good movies, the 1st 2 stand the test of time better...

 

[Razorsaw]

Playing 1-on-1 in brawl was like when I played after I first started to play melee, no short hopping, no l-canceling, no wavedashing, no di. The difference is, with melee, they were all there to give the game depth.

Okay, I'm certain people are tired of hearing this, but... how can they be there to give depth if they were accidents?

It sounds to me more like that they were there accidentally and as a CONSEQUENCE added depth.

 

[Koga]

Not to mention those things are still there, they just decide to complain about what they CAN'T do instead of figure out what they CAN

 

[Razorsaw]

I'd rather not attack people like that. I just want them to own up to what's what and explain their logic. It's not about accusing people.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You missed the point. He's not talking about techniques. He's talking about game mechanics.

The truth is that the game mechanics themselves were programmed with the intent of making Brawl much less of a competitive game than Melee. Everything seems to try to limit the options available to us, thus reducing game depth. This post corroborated this idea in full.

However, people like you keep bringing up the empty "Brawl is not Melee 2.0" argument instead of looking at the facts. And of course the critique was one-sided! He made that clear from the beginning! It's a COMPETITIVE critique. If you aren't a competitive player, why did you even respond?

Well put.

That's exactly how I feel, they wanted to slow it down and even the playing field. Instead of building upon the speed and precision of Melee, they tore the ideas down and built it up again. Makes no sense to me.

There's SOOO many less options per second, this game is all about being defensive, spamming, and camping.

I miss the breakneck speed required to overwhelm someone. It's just not there.

 

[Randomg]

Okay, I'm certain people are tired of hearing this, but... how can they be there to give depth if they were accidents?

It sounds to me more like that they were there accidentally and as a CONSEQUENCE added depth.

I'm not understanding... wavedashing was an accident (or rather, they noticed it and didn't see that it would be that useful, they did see its use but thought its intended use outweighed its non-intended one, or they were too lazy to take it out), l-canceling was not (it was in ssb64).

In the two previous games, more advanced techniques thats' advantages weren't discovered until quite a bit later (z-canceling in 64, di in melee), were implemented to give the game a longer life time or depth...

Not to mention those things are still there, they just decide to complain about what they CAN'T do instead of figure out what they CAN

Yes they're there, but they have lost a lot of their use, short hopping advantages were mostly connected with canceling the lag of the move, and di as the op said just makes the game feel like kills just happen.

I'd love if some techniques appeared that would give me more things that I CAN do, but right now I don't see it.

 

[Razorsaw]

I see, on l-cancelling. Okay.

But Wavedashing seems like the cloning glitch in Pokemon Emerald... it's useful, you wonder how they could have missed it, but removing it isn't something you should have the right to object to.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

the loss of wavedashing would be bearable if the game had dash dancing. that's the most frustrating thing for me, other than the random tripping *rolls eyes*

 

[Kirby M.D.]

You make good points man, but you haven't said anything that hasn't been said before. The rest of the thread, not so much. Does either side have anything new to say? Seriously, we've had the same argument at least 100 times already, just leave well enough alone.

 

[Razorsaw]

If I'm not the first person to say it, and it's a good point, then... well, IMHO, it says more about the counter-argument than MY argument.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

If I'm not the first person to say it, and it's a good point, then... well, IMHO, it says more about the counter-argument than MY argument.

That logic is flawed.

Many people independently reach the same conclusions, and not everyone spends all their time reading every thread and every post. Some people, like me, have complaints, come online and see that other people share the same types of thoughts, and want to show their support for the shared sentiments.

Just because someone, somewhere said something similar to what I'm saying doesn't mean my argument is invalid or that it somehow supports the opposing argument.

 

[Razorsaw]

Okay then, that makes sense. But let's go back to the core of the issue. Why should we be entitled to what was originally a mistake?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Why, upon finding the mistake in testing, didn't they take it out of the game? It would have been easy enough to program that in. An air dodge into the ground makes your character stop moving and give a little lag - problem fixed.

But they chose to leave it in. Why?

Well the better question is why not? Most likely they didn't think it'd be as important as it wound up being, but they had to see the potential it added to the game. That simple decision made Melee into a phenomenon. Sure it would have been great and deep without it, but it added a multiplier to the potential. You can never stop learning new things and coming up with new ideas.

A lot of mistakes turned out to be brilliant and important. The discovery of X-rays and penicillin are two noteworthy examples.

 

[Razorsaw]

That precludes that they caught it. What's the precedent for that? The fact that they removed it sounds to me like its not something they cared for, but if there's a justifiable case that they knowingly left it in, feel free to enlighten me. I'm trying to learn here.

But what turned Melee into a phenomenon wasn't a simple game mechanic. I don't think I can ever believe that, considering how the economics of things like this work. What turned Melee into a phenomenon was its appeal on the market. The metagame only fits into a small niche that does not sell games to a general audience.

 

[chompskyhonk]

the kid who wrote this is dumb, he just sucks at brawl and doesnt know how to make the characters flow. he probly thinks that he can use captain falcon's Fair and combo out of it like in melee.
what a douche bag.