51 characters total, reasoning inside.

[Neo Zero]

That's different. The examples you listed were only on one console. As such it was possible that they would not even be at the tournament you go to. If you want even more examples, Guilty Gear had some bans for characters not in the Arcade version, because again, they were not universal.

DLC is different, every Wii U or 3DS player has access to those characters, every set up has access to those characters, it is up to the player going to an event to understand any MU like that. Look at any universal DLC character, they're allowed in tournaments as soon as they're released, minus rare exceptions (General Zod was banned at EVO for example because he had just came out)

 

[NintenRob]

You have to keep in mind that the Gematsu leaker wasn't impressed with the DLC so I wouldn't get your hopes up

Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this topic as I have my roster and I have me beliefs in what is most likely so saying otherwise won't effect me either way, As I've said, I fully expect every RPG character to be on that row and I also have alot of doubt that Wolf would be cut, but it would also mean there in another newcomer, in which case why didn't Gematsu know about this single character?

Best Answer, Wolf isn't cut and we have 51-2 characters.
Thats how I view this roster and nothing other people say will convince me otherwise.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Other games with online and actual DLC (as in not on disc) have already thought of this. An example is CoD which only matches you up in random online with people with the same DLC installed, if you have none installed you will only be put in games with people with no DLC. If you only have Map pack 2, you will only face people with just Map Pack 2.

I don't see why they can't do that here.

The other solution is to install the characters in patches and purchase unlocks them, since you have to have the most up-to-date patch to play online it won't create issues.

Let's recall that Nintendo isn't exactly forthcoming with online functionality. They expect that you'd be playing this with friends(thus why Miis are unavailable for With Anyone) locally. It would be confusing to people unfamiliar with DLC(remember, this is a game aimed at children and casual players) to deal with characters they've never had a chance to see(as well as possibly putting performance behind a paywall or worse, making things 'pay-to-win').

I'm about to say something that shocks you because it's forgotten around here quite often...

The Smash competitive community isn't the only one that matters when it comes to Smash.

I... Have no idea what you're trying to say here. Try again?

They'd have to have a second page because DLC would otherwise unbalance the look of the CSS. And we can't have that.

Also, why would anyone buy the DLC if you can't play it in half the game?

To experience being able to play as a character you want? They still work for offline mode, just not for online.

That's different. The examples you listed were only on one console. As such it was possible that they would not even be at the tournament you go to. If you want even more examples, Guilty Gear had some bans for characters not in the Arcade version, because again, they were not universal.

DLC is different, every Wii U or 3DS player has access to those characters, every set up has access to those characters, it is up to the player going to an event to understand any MU like that. Look at any universal DLC character, they're allowed in tournaments as soon as they're released, minus rare exceptions (General Zod was banned at EVO for example because he had just came out)

Does every Wii U/3DS player have access? You need to purchase the game, and then purchase individual characters. People who want to organize tournaments need to make sure they've paid for EVERY CHARACTER available for DLC. Depending on what's charged for them, this cost can be, frankly, stupid. How many tournaments are going to want to go through that? Maybe the really big ones, but small scale stuff is just going to say, "Sorry, no Ridley/K.Rool/Krystal/etc."

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Just issue a game wide patch when the DLC comes out and allow other consoles to recognize the data. You have to connect to the internet to go online anyways.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You have to keep in mind that the Gematsu leaker wasn't impressed with the DLC so I wouldn't get your hopes up

Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this topic as I have my roster and I have me beliefs in what is most likely so saying otherwise won't effect me either way, As I've said, I fully expect every RPG character to be on that row and I also have alot of doubt that Wolf would be cut, but it would also mean there in another newcomer, in which case why didn't Gematsu know about this single character?

Best Answer, Wolf isn't cut and we have 51-2 characters.
Thats how I view this roster and nothing other people say will convince me otherwise.

Well that's that then, I suppose. >.>; I still say 47. I dunno where you're getting the others.

Just issue a game wide patch when the DLC comes out and allow other consoles to recognize the data. You have to connect to the internet to go online anyways.

Right, but not everyone who has access to the internet will have access to a means to buy characters(typing that sentence honestly made me slightly sick, ugh I hate DLC). And, again, people unfamiliar with what characters are DLC and which aren't will be confused and frustrated that "The super-cool guy/gal/thing I want to be costs $5/10/15 by itself after the game?!" Better to just disallow online play so people don't realize what they're missing out on and can discover for themselves characters they might like to purchase.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

What better way of advertising the character though than seeing them in action? You can't play them unless you buy them so it'd not a question of fairness. This wouldn't have the same issue dlc stages would. And I would hope Nintendo would do a decent job of advertising their DLC. They did with Awakening.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

They could have videos of said characters on the website. At the bare minimum, the same stipulations to Miis apply to DLC. You can use them in any mode with Friends, but can't take them into For Fun or For Glory lobbies.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

They could have videos of said characters on the website. At the bare minimum, the same stipulations to Miis apply to DLC. You can use them in any mode with Friends, but can't take them into For Fun or For Glory lobbies.

If you honestly think this is going to happen. I just don't even know what to say to you. DLC characters will not be banned in any mode. ANY MODE.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

The only thing keeping the miis out is potential for misuse. They and Palutena share the same concept for moves and Palutena isn't blocked. I still fail to see why playing as DLC characters in randoms is a bad thing.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The only thing keeping the miis out is potential for misuse. They and Palutena share the same concept for moves and Palutena isn't blocked. I still fail to see why playing as DLC characters in randoms is a bad thing.

It's not. And honestly 99.9 percent of the hardcore competitors are going to pick up every DLC character anyways. And like has been said patches exist for a reason.

And once again if you're a competitive player it's kind of your task to look up the knowledge of how to combat against a character you may not have skill with. A character being DLC and potentially not something you own does not change this and should not be something that EVERYONE is punished for because you're too lazy to adapt.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I literally did not understand your logic in that last paragraph. Could you please rephrase your statement? How is everyone being punished by you being lazy?

Edit: damn it. I got the two of you mixed up. This is why 65 hour work weeks are bad.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If Nintendo bans DLC in any mode because it brings an unfair advantage to those that may not have said DLC character. It is punishing everyone because you'res a lazy person who just couldn't be bothered to research said character. And that's the way around that issue. Not cutting off everyone's use of said characters.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

If you honestly think this is going to happen. I just don't even know what to say to you. DLC characters will not be banned in any mode. ANY MODE.

No, it makes sense that DLC only works for those that have it, which would be you and your friends. Fighting random joe with DLC character #4 would be ridiculous. Especially if that character turns out to be 'pay-to-win'.

The only thing keeping the miis out is potential for misuse. They and Palutena share the same concept for moves and Palutena isn't blocked. I still fail to see why playing as DLC characters in randoms is a bad thing.

You won't see 3/4s of Palutena's moveset because customizations are banned in With Anyone play.

It's not. And honestly 99.9 percent of the hardcore competitors are going to pick up every DLC character anyways. And like has been said patches exist for a reason.

And once again if you're a competitive player it's kind of your task to look up the knowledge of how to combat against a character you may not have skill with. A character being DLC and potentially not something you own does not change this and should not be something that EVERYONE is punished for because you're too lazy to adapt.

Reading up on and practicing against are not the same thing. I can theorycraft with Nightmare all I want in regards to beating Cervantes, but until my friend comes over and we actually fight, I've got absolutely nothing. Why am I suddenly at an unfair disadvantage because I didn't want to pay $10 to learn how to fight K.Rool? Who's getting punished? You STILL GET YOUR CHARACTER. You just can't take them online, which is perfectly fair.

EDIT: Nevermind the fact that this would KILL local tourneys dead. You'd need to have several machines with EVERY DLC CHARACTER and that could cost hundreds, if not thousands depending on price and amount of characters. Or, you know, take the more sensible route and ban DLC characters.

 

[Neo Zero]

I literally did not understand your logic in that last paragraph. Could you please rephrase your statement? How is everyone being punished by you being lazy?

Rosalina means that the players who play the character or the players who studied the MU or even just people who own it in general get the short end of the stick because someone won't check forums, DL it, practice elsewhere of they can't get it, or just adapt in general.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It literally makes no sense that DLC only works with you and your friends online and offline. That is simply not how ANY DLC works in this day and age. And would not be how it would work for Smash at all.

There will be patches to allow matches against DLC characters for those who did not want to purchase them. This is how EVERY game with DLC characters works online.

You live in the stone age if you think it works any other way.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Yeah, I got it. I got you guys all mixed up and things stopped making sense.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

It literally makes no sense that DLC only works with you and your friends online and offline. That is simply not how ANY DLC works in this day and age. And would not be how it would work for Smash at all.

There will be patches to allow matches against DLC characters for those who did not want to purchase them. This is how EVERY game with DLC characters works online.

You live in the stone age if you think it works any other way.

Why doesn't it? It's one less uncertain factor that makes it to With Anyone. I would at the very least hope For Glory bans DLC because it's unfair to tack a price tag onto competition. If I have a game, and you have a game, why do I get punished if I don't have the money to transform it into Game+?

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Um, there is no punishment. The other character isn't going to be better just because they are DLC.

 

[Neo Zero]

If you feel so strongly Ebony I suggest you make a thread about it in Wii U/3DS General if there already isn't one. We're getting fairly off topic.

I stand by my scrolling/multi page CSS theory at any rate, after all, if only one person can use the CSS, then it doesn't matter if it has multiple parts, even for CPUs

Edit: To be fair, DLC can mean insufficient bug and balance testing. Look no further than Kat in PlayStation All Stars or Kokonoe in Blazblue.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

At least on the 3DS.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Um, there is no punishment. The other character isn't going to be better just because they are DLC.

Are you so sure? League tends to do this all of the time. VUs and new characters are typically very busted at launch and get scaled back over time. Plus, this is someone who looked at Brawl's Meta Knight and said, "Yeah this is fine."

If you feel so strongly Ebony I suggest you make a thread about it in Wii U/3DS General if there already isn't one. We're getting fairly off topic at any rate.

I stand by my scrolling/multi page CSS theory at any rate, after all, if only one person can use the CSS, then it doesn't matter if it has multiple parts, even for CPUs

It's not a matter of any conviction or nonsense like that, it's simple objective fairness. For Fun and For Glory shouldn't allow DLC the same as they don't allow Miis or eight of Palutena's moves.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

EVERYONE looked at Meta Knight and thought he was okay. We had no way of knowing. You're honestly sounding a little paranoid right now.

Besides, 3x the balancers should aliviate some of these issues.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

EVERYONE looked at Meta Knight and thought he was okay. We had no way of knowing. You're honestly sounding a little paranoid right now.

Besides, 3x the balancers should aliviate some of these issues.

There's no guarantee. Besides that, it still makes no sense for DLC to be playable online with people who don't have the DLC. It would be confusing and disappointing to people that may think the character can be unlocked a different way.

This is even if the DLC is character-based.

 

[Deleted member]

There's no guarantee. Besides that, it still makes no sense for DLC to be playable online with people who don't have the DLC. It would be confusing and disappointing to people that may think the character can be unlocked a different way.

This is even if the DLC is character-based.

Have you ever played PlayStation All-Star Battle Royale? The DLC characters appear locked after you update the game AND can be used online, there is no problem with allowing it on with anyone, it would be unfair to pay for DLC and not being able to use online

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

You'd have to be pretty oblivious to see a DLC character and not realize what they were. We don't live in the days of Smash 64 or melee anymore. No one is falling for your playground rumors about how to unlock sonic. If you honestly don't realize Nintendo has character dlc out for a game you own, that's on you.

Look, I'm tired and I'm going to bed. You win. Have a nice day.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Have you ever played PlayStation All-Star Battle Royale? The DLC characters appear locked after you update the game AND can be used online, there is no problem with allowing it on with anyone, it would be unfair to pay for DLC and not being able to use online

No it wouldn't. It's not like Nintendo would bait-and-switch(I hope). There would be a disclaimer before the purchase is made that "hey, just FYI this content isn't allowed to go in certain modes such as With Anyone. If you're cool with that, hit that yes button!"

 

[Deleted member]

No it wouldn't. It's not like Nintendo would bait-and-switch(I hope). There would be a disclaimer before the purchase is made that "hey, just FYI this content isn't allowed to go in certain modes such as With Anyone. If you're cool with that, hit that yes button!"

You know there are some people who just play Online, no one would buy DLC if you aren't allowed to use it online, and worser would be just playing against CPUs with "the awesome DLC char" you paid for(or in my case, my family that plays terribly and sometimes my friends)

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Well, we're not exactly privy to how stable and solid the online connection will be. Nintendo is still probably looking toward folk playing locally with one another. Besides, what about people who really like the Mii stuff and want to main Mii Fighters? They just out of luck? The report system should be more than sufficient to deal with offensive Mii users because your online account is tied to your NNID. Just standardize their looks(at least as far as they appear to the other players), use the default moveset of the Mii type you're using, and call it a day.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Miis aren't allowed for a good reason, people have proven time and time again that they will always break the rules with too much freedom. Without the customization aspect the Miis lose their charm too, that's their whole gimmick, their moveset is mostly copy-paste from other characters' moves from what we have gathered, so standardizing their looks isn't ideal.

Locking DLC characters out of online is without any sound logic. DLC gets released -> a free data patch is required to play as new character(s) and play online -> Everyone lives happily ever after. There's absolutely no good reason for them to be locked, and comparing it with things like League isn't fair either as it's a free to play game made by a totally different company, and on a completely different platform no-less. There's so many more benefits for allowing them online, keeping them away from online would cause mass controversy, especially if it includes a popular character like Mewtwo.

Either way, this discussion has shifted waaaaaaay off-topic.

My biggest problem with 47 is Ridley, he has a ton going for him when you look at the following points

-His shadow proves he is about the size of bowser, Ridley would not be that small when Sakurai said himself that the only reason it might not work is his size
-He is shown to have playable character like animations that Bosses have NEVER been known to have in Smash Bros, And while others might not see it, That looks very much what second jump would look with Ridley, Look at that and then compare it to Meta Knights
-We have already seen items that grant the ability to float and Ridley could have a move that lets him float in a single place for a small bit of time
-Why would Sakurai tease an extremely popular character with no positive outcome, he never teases like this, when something bad happens, he doesn't like to draw attention to it as shown when he revealed Charizard, he didn't mention him at all during the direct when talking about removing transformations, but instead just revealed him with Greninja to avoid having to talk about removing Pkmn Trainer, Squirtle and Ivysaur.
-He has been shown to "deconfirm" a playable character before launch as shown with R.O.B.

Ridley has far too much going for him at this point, Sakurai is a smart bloke, doing a stunt like this would be a horrible idea no matter which way you look at it.

They could always have cut another character besides Snake, Lucas, Squirtle or Ivysaur, which would make Ridley fit in the 47 character roster.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Miis aren't allowed for a good reason, people have proven time and time again that they will always break the rules with too much freedom. Without the customization aspect the Miis lose their charm too, that's their whole gimmick, their moveset is mostly copy-paste from other characters' moves from what we have gathered, so standardizing their looks isn't ideal.

What? So, which character did they get rapid-fire upward blasts from then, that the Gunner does. Or a series of slow methodical shots. Or a side flip-into-dive kick? Or Swordsman's fsmash? Those all looked unique.

Locking DLC characters out of online is without any sound logic. DLC gets released -> a free data patch is required to play as new character(s) and play online -> Everyone lives happily ever after. There's absolutely no good reason for them to be locked, and comparing it with things like League isn't fair either as it's a free to play game made by a totally different company, and on a completely different platform no-less. There's so many more benefits for allowing them online, keeping them away from online would cause mass controversy, especially if it includes a popular character like Mewtwo.

Not everyone lives happily ever after. Local tournaments die because they have to purchase multiple consoles' worth of DLC, and that's going to be hundreds of dollars just to keep up with the Jones. DLC characters may be banned from competitive play due to the uneven playing field they create.

Nothing is stopping people from playing Mewtwo/Ridley/K.Rool/Insert-character-here. They'd just be relegated to either local play or With Friends online.

Either way, this discussion has shifted waaaaaaay off-topic.

Agreed, though in my defense it was because there arose controversy with the 47-character roster.

They could always have cut another character besides Snake, Lucas, Squirtle or Ivysaur, which would make Ridley fit in the 47 character roster.

Gematsu disagrees. The math works if Lucas, Snake, Squirtle, and Ivysaur are all gone. The newcomers from Gematsu, the remaining veterans, and everyone we know now add up to that magic number. Add the Random button, and there you have it. Everything on a single screen. What the Wii U does with its CSS is irrelevant at this juncture, because 3DS and Wii U will have the same roster. So we need to measure against the 3DS, not against Wii U.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Gematsu disagrees. The math works if Lucas, Snake, Squirtle, and Ivysaur are all gone. The newcomers from Gematsu, the remaining veterans, and everyone we know now add up to that magic number. Add the Random button, and there you have it. Everything on a single screen. What the Wii U does with its CSS is irrelevant at this juncture, because 3DS and Wii U will have the same roster. So we need to measure against the 3DS, not against Wii U.

It's still more likely that Ridley pulls a Rosalina and an additional character is cut than the roster is upped to 51 imo. Mind you neither is very likely at all.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

It's still more likely that Ridley pulls a Rosalina and an additional character is cut than the roster is upped to 51 imo. Mind you neither is very likely at all.

Well, I suppose Lucas doesn't have to be the one cut, but I don't see any additional slots being revealed.. 52 divides into four nicely, but the 3DS doesn't have the resolution to handle that. 50 means 5 rows and 10 columns, meaning each cell would be 40x48. That's a very awkward measurement, don't you think?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Well, I suppose Lucas doesn't have to be the one cut, but I don't see any additional slots being revealed.. 52 divides into four nicely, but the 3DS doesn't have the resolution to handle that. 50 means 5 rows and 10 columns, meaning each cell would be 40x48. That's a very awkward measurement, don't you think?

That's why I don't think 50+ is very likely, it can't fit without alternative solutions like scrolling, and I'm sure they'd have organized the CSS for the 3DS differently then.

And if we're following the Gematsu leak religiously, then yeah, Lucas probably has to be the one cut as he was said to be in danger.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

That's why I don't think 50+ is very likely, it can't fit without alternative solutions like scrolling, and I'm sure they'd have organized the CSS for the 3DS differently then.

And if we're following the Gematsu leak religiously, then yeah, Lucas probably has to be the one cut as he was said to be in danger.

Even if Lucas weren't the one to go(if, say Wolf or Ganondorf or someone else went poof), 48 remains the magic number of cells. It just fits really well.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Even if Lucas weren't the one to go(if, say Wolf or Ganondorf or someone else went poof), 48 remains the magic number of cells. It just fits really well.

Yeah, but Lucas is definitely the most likely to go. I just said that if Ridley has to be playable, we'll probably have to ditch another veteran on top of the ones who are already presumed to be cut (Lucas, Snake, Ivysaur and Squirtle), likely being R.O.B or Wolf. Like I said, that's not a likely scenario though, I don't see anyone else getting cut really, and thus Ridley and any other non-Gematsu newcomer is likely going to be left out.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Yeah, but Lucas is definitely the most likely to go. I just said that if Ridley has to be playable, we'll probably have to ditch another veteran on top of the ones who are already presumed to be cut (Lucas, Snake, Ivysaur and Squirtle), likely being R.O.B or Wolf. Like I said, that's not a likely scenario though, I don't see anyone else getting cut really, and thus Ridley and any other non-Gematsu newcomer is likely going to be left out.

It's a shame but them's the breaks. Believe me, I know how rabid the Ridley thread can be, and I wanted Krystal. Oh well, I've got plenty of other mains to pick from.

 

[Ryan.]

51 is a great number, I'll be happy with that amount of characters, or even less. I just hope to God Lucas isn't cut like everyone is expecting at this point. :/

Question though, I have seen on this thread and many others about the Mii Fighter taking up three slots. Did Sakurai directly say this? I figured they would take up one slot and you would choose which Mii Fighter style you wanted out of the three much like being able to choose between Zelda and Sheik in Brawl.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

51 is a great number, I'll be happy with that amount of characters, or even less. I just hope to God Lucas isn't cut like everyone is expecting at this point. :/

Question though, I have seen on this thread and many others about the Mii Fighter taking up three slots. Did Sakurai directly say this? I figured they would take up one slot and you would choose which Mii Fighter style you wanted out of the three much like being able to choose between Zelda and Sheik in Brawl.

Sakurai said in the E3 Direct that all three movesets for the Mii Fighter is treated as independant characters. However, I think some people dug up some footage of a Nintendo Treehouse member saying it only took up one roster slot or something to that effect. I'm fairly certain it's going to be like with Pokémon Trainer and Zelda/Sheik in Brawl, wouldn't make sense to do it otherwise, and Sakurai has always treated transformations as independant characters anyways.

 

[Ryan.]

Sakurai said in the E3 Direct that all three movesets for the Mii Fighter is treated as independant characters. However, I think some people dug up some footage of a Nintendo Treehouse member saying it only took up one roster slot or something to that effect. I'm fairly certain it's going to be like with Pokémon Trainer and Zelda/Sheik in Brawl, wouldn't make sense to do it otherwise, and Sakurai has always treated transformations as independant characters anyways.

Good, I hope that is the case as well. Thank you!

 

[Starbound]

Going back to DLC for a sec, banning DLC characters online is, unfortunately, precedented with Nintendo games. Mario Golf 3DS has DLC characters but you can't use them against random people online (a lot like the Miis in this game). I know that Mario Golf isn't Smash Bros. but I wouldn't put it past those guys at Nintendo to pull another stunt like this. DLC in that game, from what I can tell, has a button on the character select screen that switches to another CSS screen and I think that button isn't active when playing online.

Anyways, I have a request. Can someone edit the 3DS' CSS to see if it can also fit 51 characters. The big thing about 47 is that it fits perfectly on both consoles. 51 can fit on the Wii U with a little bit of resizing (within the realm of possibility) and I'm not sure what exactly the 3DS CSS looks like with 51 slots.

Here's an image of it for anyone wanting to give it a try.