51 characters total, reasoning inside.

[Xenorange]

No, it makes sense that DLC only works for those that have it, which would be you and your friends. Fighting random joe with DLC character #4 would be ridiculous. Especially if that character turns out to be 'pay-to-win'.



You won't see 3/4s of Palutena's moveset because customizations are banned in With Anyone play.



Reading up on and practicing against are not the same thing. I can theorycraft with Nightmare all I want in regards to beating Cervantes, but until my friend comes over and we actually fight, I've got absolutely nothing. Why am I suddenly at an unfair disadvantage because I didn't want to pay $10 to learn how to fight K.Rool? Who's getting punished? You STILL GET YOUR CHARACTER. You just can't take them online, which is perfectly fair.

EDIT: Nevermind the fact that this would KILL local tourneys dead. You'd need to have several machines with EVERY DLC CHARACTER and that could cost hundreds, if not thousands depending on price and amount of characters. Or, you know, take the more sensible route and ban DLC characters.

Stop with this argument, it's ludicrous that you think that DLC won't be usable online. That would be like buying half of a character.

Edit: sorry for all the posts, I'll shut up now.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Is there a reason that 51 character is so hard to believe?

I mean yea 47 is possible but 51 is a much better guess.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Is there a reason that 51 character is so hard to believe?

I mean yea 47 is possible but 51 is a much better guess.

Because the CSS only fits so many characters, and Sakurai decided how many characters there would be, based on the size of the CSS in a demo, which is BTW set in stone forever.

 

[Deleted member]

"Sakurai won't include more characters because he doesn't fit in the Demo screen"

47 may fit just fine, but 50-51 fits well and no one would complain about aditional characters

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Hoooooboy. Here we go, this'll be a fun infraction!

And a DLC extra screen makes it less simple, less familiar and more cluttered.

In what world? The DLC CSS only comes up when you call it. Were it scrolling, the "there's more stuff over here" arrow would get in the way of the entire left/right/top/bottom/ of the character display until you centered the screen. And that's if you know the layout! Why complicate the selection process when you just want an on-disc character, especially if one happens to be in the middle position of the roster. Cool, an easter egg hunt if I want to play Dedede or R.O.B.! Boy, good thing it scrolls, I might actually be able to locate my desired character in less than a second, and that's just too fast! Only hedgehogs can handle that!

I think that if DLC is in, we may simply see the layout change when DLC characters are added. Really we don't know, as it depends on both the size of the final roster and the number of DLC characters planned.

That would be awful and confusing. "Hey, it said I just unlocked Ridley!.... Where is he?" versus the separate DLC CSS "Oh, I downloaded Ridley, lemme click this and.. There he is! Let's rumble!" It's faster to navigate and easier to organize. You can't use the touch-screen to navigate the CSS on the 3DS, so you'll have to scroll through 20+ characters via the D-pad, versus being able to either decide "I want to use DLC" or "I want to use an on-board character". You're right, though, instant information is terribad. :\

This is just a non sequitur.

It's a design philosophy that proves itself time and time again. Simpler and more direct is better.

Ok, there are 400:240 pixels. And the number of rows and columns is not 5:3. There are borders too which only appear between columns, and not at the left or right. The name bar at the bottom effectively acts as a border between rows.

You're right, the slots are evenly distributed on the screen. However, it also shows that it makes sense and can all coexist on the same screen with minimal losses of quality. A loss of a pixel on either edge is by no means a dealbreaker(and the black edge of the screen on the 3DS serves as a border in itself. Also, there is a border on both left and right already. It's 1px, which is quite noticeable when using black.

If the column separators are 2 pixels, then the ratio should be 65:60 in terms of pixels (6 icons x 65 pixels + 5 column separators x 2 pixels = 400 width). The height would be 240/4 = 60.

Why are you looking at the columns as independent units? They're designed as part of each fighters' cell. Each CELL is uniform in design and size. There is such a thing as negative space, you know!

That's a ratio of 65:60, or 13:12. I don't know why you keep saying 5:3 and 16:9 over and over.

I got 5:4 on the measurements of my cells. The overall isn't terribly important so long as it's reasonably approximate. 5:4 on a 5:3 is fine. 16:9 on a 5:3 is not.

What this has to do with anything, I don't know. My point was just that they're not using the same icon shapes.

Stating simply that one does not simply design for 5:3 the same as one would for 16:9.

What the hell are you talking about? The Wii U version isn't taking up the entire screen for the roster, so the resolution is irrelevant. I simply measured the box on CSS and it's nowhere near 16:9. It's approximately 4:3, like I said.
Again, what the hell are you talking about?

My point is that because of the extra space available they can do a bit more with the CSS, and thus looking at the CSS on the Wii U is actually detrimental when trying to determine roster size because there are more variables that come into play.

Nothing I said implied that they should use 16:9 proportions on the 3DS, or use the same pictures pixel for pixel or something like that.

That 8x6 layout is readable for me but 1. fitting player tokens on cells becomes a lot harder 2. some character names are longer in different languages and 3. not everyone has as good eyesight and 4. Sakurai likes menu design and the 3DS poses a challenge - either make the boxes too small to look great, or make it scroll. I think he would prefer scrolling. Horizontal scrolling would be easy and intuitive to do using the L & R buttons, it would keep the character boxes looking nice, and it would allow the exact same layout as the Wii U.

Allowing the same layout as the Wii U is something that would appeal to Sakurai as well, since if he puts as much thought into the position of characters as the people in here are doing, it's a lot easier to not have to do it twice or come up with a unified character order that works on both.

Your words. "We'll use the Wii U CSS layout for the 3DS! It'll just scroll! It'll be neato, I promise!" Each CSS, and indeed each element in a design needs to be unique and work differently for the medium upon which it's presented. That's why Windows 8 is utter and total garbage that is just now starting to try and pull itself from the landfill by acknowledging that, holy crap, maybe ditching the desktop experience on desktops wasn't a great idea. They forced a unified design across platforms that had no business using that design. Gee, desktop power users don't care about Metro? Why I'm shocked! Tableteers love it, so why don't desktoppers? /tangent

My point is that the 3DS leaves no extra space - the layout was clearly chosen simply to use the entire space while keeping the icons at a reasonable size. The Wii U CSS, however, has plenty of extra space. They could've changed the proportions if they wanted to, or made the roster grid taller (making room for 5 rows) or whatever if they wanted to. Thus the Wii U CSS is a much stronger indicator of the roster size.

No. It. Isn't. The 3DS having less space to display the full roster makes MORE sense to look at BECAUSE it has less space to deceive with! Remember how Brawl final speculation was complete nonsense? It was because the UI could shift and change as new characters were unlocked, and the roster was simply not big enough to take up the entire screen. Yet it was all presented on a single screen. The 3DS, keeping everything on a single screen, allows for an approximate guess at roster size because they have to use every last pixel. Which means the 3DS is better to speculate on because we have less variables to deal with. Unless Sakurai is a madman and a total hypocrite in his claim to being a designer, he will not leave uneven slots or gaps in the design. Therefore, we can assume that the 3DS will use its space to display as much information as simply and directly as possible. Which is what you want to do when you're displaying information! Which is what the 3DS top screen will do!

Who are you talking to? Where is this "excess information" thing coming from? Because I didn't say that. You're making these weird points in response to things that nobody said.

If I want to select a character, ANY character, I have to find them on the CSS, yes? If I can see the entire roster on the screen, I can at-a-glance tell where everyone is, so I can go "oh, there's Marth, I'll pick him." If I have to scroll, I may be saying, "hey, I want to try Marth today" but I'd have to scroll around to find him. "By the Zelda series? Nope. How about Starfox? Uh, don't see him. Well, maybe I'll play Fox instead." And that's just on-board content. Gods help you if you're trying to find a DLC character. "Gee, I downloaded Ridley but I dunno where to scroll to find him..." Whereas, if you have a separate DLC roster that you can access with a click of a touchpad button, it's "I downloaded Ridley, I wanna try him.. Ah, there's the DLC menu- oh! There he is. Let's play!"

People say a separate DLC CSS will complicate the matter. I do not see how "downloaded a character? Tap this button and check them out in their own CSS" is more complicated than "downloaded a character? Scroll around and see if you can find them on an ever-growing and shifting landscape!" It would be infuriating to navigate such a screen, especially if, and I'm gonna go ahead and hit this nail in a twofer...

People also like things to not be tiny. Having the character icons be big enough is also important, and it's something you're dismissing on the basis of nothing but your own design preferences. Fitting them all on one screen has a benefit, but it also has a cost.

.. People also hate things that are too big(like Ridley LOL THAT WAS A JOKE THX 4 COMING). How many characters would be on display at a given time? How many rows? Can it be zoomed in or out? Can I adjust scroll speed? Man, sure am glad I went with all of these variables instead of JUST HAVING EVERYTHING ON THE SAME SCREEN. Where's my paycheck Nintendo, I'm the best!

Wait, what's that? Even with a full-roster screen, I may have zoom options if my vision's a bit bad? EGAD.

Do you really have a hard time telling who's Mario and who's Luigi in the mockup above(I can understand it for the FE crew. Blue hair + sword + generic anime scowl = MILLIONS SOLD BESTSELLER WOOP WOOP!)?

And while you keep insisting that DLC will be a separate page, it violates everything you're talking about, except to a greater extent.

Boy, my CTRL, C, and V buttons are getting worn out. Don't worry though, I've still got you covered.

If I want to select a character, ANY character, I have to find them on the CSS, yes? If I can see the entire roster on the screen, I can at-a-glance tell where everyone is, so I can go "oh, there's Marth, I'll pick him." If I have to scroll, I may be saying, "hey, I want to try Marth today" but I'd have to scroll around to find him. "By the Zelda series? Nope. How about Starfox? Uh, don't see him. Well, maybe I'll play Fox instead." And that's just on-board content. Gods help you if you're trying to find a DLC character. "Gee, I downloaded Ridley but I dunno where to scroll to find him..." Whereas, if you have a separate DLC roster that you can access with a click of a touchpad button, it's "I downloaded Ridley, I wanna try him.. Ah, there's the DLC menu- oh! There he is. Let's play!"

There's tension between the two, like I said. The choice is not as obvious as you're making it out to be.

Let's see. I have a need for an informational display. This one over here displays all of the info I need displayed with no additional setup. That one over there requires that I scroll around and highlight things piece-by-piece. WELL GOLLY I GUESS THE OTHER ONE'S THE BETTER ONE. Hooray for more work for zero payoff!

All of which is obvious and irrelevant.

So why am I having to explain why scrolling is bad if we can agree UI design needs to be concise?! Why? Why? WHY? WHY?!

That's exactly my point. It means that they had freedom to design the CSS boxes to require minimal modification between the final roster display and the demo/starter roster display.

ON THE WII U. You infuriate me further with every letter I read. You CANNOT use the same metric on 3DS as you do on the Wii U. That is stupid. The 3DS's top screen is a unique medium and needs to be treated and addressed as such!

Which means that the Wii U roster screen gives us more information, because they had more freedom to adjust the shape and size of the boxes.

Please, don't ever do science. You do not have the discipline to conduct experiments if you're willing to accept variables so blatantly. Right, professionalism. Hokay, I'm going to ask you a question. Why do you think you'll get a better answer to a question out of observing a scenario with more variables(Wii U extra space, resizing, etc) than a scenario with less variables(3DS screen size)?

Again, with the weird aspect ratio obsession. The boxes on the 3DS are not 4:3, 5:3 or 16:9.

You're right. They're within an acceptable margin for the medium upon which they are presented. That also helps to determine the size of one's UI elements. Aspect ratio is important.

The shape of the boxes on the Wii U does not need to be 4:3 or 16:9. Why would you assume that they would be?

Exactly what other size would they be?! Good gods, don't tell me you're someone vouching for portrait-style CSS screens with text on the boxes themselves.

That was actually not the most important point...

The point was that the icons being that small is not necessarily desired for other reasons.
Viewing a separate DLC screen is more work than just looking. You're presenting that as a positive while complaining that scrolling is a fatal flaw in a menu.

Okay. I just punched my monitor. Right. Yes. Scrolling around and trying to find an DLC character set into a changing roster order is LESS WORK than hitting a button.

I.. I don't even.. I.. Hooboy.

You don't seem to notice when you put contradictory statements right next to each other.

Just gonna Ctrl+V this a FEW MORE TIMES.

Nothing I said implied that they should use 16:9 proportions on the 3DS, or use the same pictures pixel for pixel or something like that.

That 8x6 layout is readable for me but 1. fitting player tokens on cells becomes a lot harder 2. some character names are longer in different languages and 3. not everyone has as good eyesight and 4. Sakurai likes menu design and the 3DS poses a challenge - either make the boxes too small to look great, or make it scroll. I think he would prefer scrolling. Horizontal scrolling would be easy and intuitive to do using the L & R buttons, it would keep the character boxes looking nice, and it would allow the exact same layout as the Wii U.

Allowing the same layout as the Wii U is something that would appeal to Sakurai as well, since if he puts as much thought into the position of characters as the people in here are doing, it's a lot easier to not have to do it twice or come up with a unified character order that works on both.

Nothing I said implied that they should use 16:9 proportions on the 3DS, or use the same pictures pixel for pixel or something like that.

That 8x6 layout is readable for me but 1. fitting player tokens on cells becomes a lot harder 2. some character names are longer in different languages and 3. not everyone has as good eyesight and 4. Sakurai likes menu design and the 3DS poses a challenge - either make the boxes too small to look great, or make it scroll. I think he would prefer scrolling. Horizontal scrolling would be easy and intuitive to do using the L & R buttons, it would keep the character boxes looking nice, and it would allow the exact same layout as the Wii U.

Allowing the same layout as the Wii U is something that would appeal to Sakurai as well, since if he puts as much thought into the position of characters as the people in here are doing, it's a lot easier to not have to do it twice or come up with a unified character order that works on both.

Nothing I said implied that they should use 16:9 proportions on the 3DS, or use the same pictures pixel for pixel or something like that.

That 8x6 layout is readable for me but 1. fitting player tokens on cells becomes a lot harder 2. some character names are longer in different languages and 3. not everyone has as good eyesight and 4. Sakurai likes menu design and the 3DS poses a challenge - either make the boxes too small to look great, or make it scroll. I think he would prefer scrolling. Horizontal scrolling would be easy and intuitive to do using the L & R buttons, it would keep the character boxes looking nice, and it would allow the exact same layout as the Wii U.

Allowing the same layout as the Wii U is something that would appeal to Sakurai as well, since if he puts as much thought into the position of characters as the people in here are doing, it's a lot easier to not have to do it twice or come up with a unified character order that works on both.

That's not what decipher means.

As per Google: "(to) succeed in understanding, interpreting, or identifying (something)"

As per Merriam-Webster: "a: to make out the meaning of despite indistinctness or obscurity"
"b: to interpret the meaning of"

You decipher information all of the time. Just because there's no Jeopardy! music in the background or it's not a codeword doesn't mean you're not working to understand it(given your post quality though, maybe you're not working to understand things).

Taking a little bit more time to view the whole thing does not mean it requires effort to decipher.

YES IT DOES. YES IT DOES. YES IT DOES.

Let's put this to a test! Read both sentences, and tell me which you were able to decipher first: .hsiloof era uoY VS You are foolish.

Electricity takes the path of least resistance. I suspect game development energy operates on the same principle. Why create busy work for yourself, unless you are genuinely insane and hate life?

 

[egaddmario]

^tl;dr

Wouldn't it be easier if the character that are DLC be put with their series...? If you know where Samus and ZSS are, Ridley wouldn't be far behind...

 

[Xenorange]

^tl;dr

Wouldn't it be easier if the character that are DLC be put with their series...? If you know where Samus and ZSS are, Ridley wouldn't be far behind...

Personally, I think Ridley will make the initial roster. Get what you're saying though.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

^tl;dr

Wouldn't it be easier if the character that are DLC be put with their series...? If you know where Samus and ZSS are, Ridley wouldn't be far behind...

If there weren't a rule on double-posting I'd break that down, but alas.

Also, what about characters with no series(Takamaru?)

EDIT: WE'VE GOT BACK TO DLC DISCUSSION I AM SHUTTING UP NOW.

 

[Deleted member]

If there weren't a rule on double-posting I'd break that down, but alas.

Also, what about characters with no series(Takamaru?)

EDIT: WE'VE GOT BACK TO DLC DISCUSSION I AM SHUTTING UP NOW.

Put him alongside the Retro characters

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Put him alongside the Retro characters

And where are they? How long would it take me to scroll to them? Would there be guides on the CSS to let me easily find them?

 

[egaddmario]

And where are they? How long would it take me to scroll to them? Would there be guides on the CSS to let me easily find them?

Brawl had the "New" on newly unlocked, unplayed characters. They could easily do the same.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

So now I'll have arrows cluttering up my scrolling CSS I'm trying to navigate?

 

[Xenorange]

And where are they? How long would it take me to scroll to them? Would there be guides on the CSS to let me easily find them?

You're making yourself out to be quite incompetent here. Is it truly to difficult for you to horizontally scroll a screen?

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

You'rs making yourself out to be quite incompetent here. Is it truly to difficult for you to horizontally scroll a screen?

WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?! Why not have the entire screen on the screen? Why are we adding useless steps to the process?

 

[Xenorange]

WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?! Why not have the entire screen on the screen? Why are we adding useless steps to the process?

So we can have more characters and actually have them be visible?

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

DLC can go in its own CSS(which would also be, gasp, full screen)! It'd be very simple to navigate and use! Are you all really so scared of 47 + Random that you're willing to throw all good design out of the window?!

 

[Xenorange]

DLC can go in its own CSS(which would also be, gasp, full screen)! It'd be very simple to navigate and use! Are you all really so scared of 47 + Random that you're willing to throw all good design out of the window?!

Scrolling the screen wouldn't hurt the aesthetic, in fact it would make the roster appear to be bigger and as a result, more impressive.

 

[Deleted member]

"That's it guys, cut all of those characters, we can't make them fit in the CSS without making it scroll, I guess everyone will understand this"

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Scrolling the screen wouldn't hurt the aesthetic, in fact it would make the roster appear to be bigger and more impressive.

No it wouldn't! It would be tiresome and frustrating to navigate. Besides, what's more impressive? 51 characters 20 at a time or 47 characters ALL AT ONCE? I cold repeat my post above

"That's it guys, cut all of those characters, we can't make them fit in the CSS without making it scroll, I guess everyone will understand this"

"Hey, 51 characters confirmed, here's why!" "Uh, no, design aesthetics and logic suggest 47." "NUH UH GET OUT RIDLEY FOR SMASH"

 

[Xenorange]

No it wouldn't! It would be tiresome and frustrating to navigate. Besides, what's more impressive? 51 characters 20 at a time or 47 characters ALL AT ONCE? I cold repeat my post above



"Hey, 51 characters confirmed, here's why!" "Uh, no, design aesthetics and logic suggest 47." "NUH UH GET OUT RIDLEY FOR SMASH"

I'm just stating what I see to be feasible, I don't see why the 3ds roster can't scroll. It wouldn't be tiresome, assuming they implement it reasonably. I can imagine them making the screen scroll with the L and R buttons.

It would be a good way to have a high character count and retain the pretty look of the roster.

Edit: Oh and having more characters than one screen can handle would come across as impressive.

 

[Deleted member]

No it wouldn't! It would be tiresome and frustrating to navigate. Besides, what's more impressive? 51 characters 20 at a time or 47 characters ALL AT ONCE? I cold repeat my post above



"Hey, 51 characters confirmed, here's why!" "Uh, no, design aesthetics and logic suggest 47." "NUH UH GET OUT RIDLEY FOR SMASH"

You're implying anyone cares more for the aesthetic of the CSS than the playable characters. "Ugh! I can only see half the roster at the time, 0/10"
Literally no one cares for the CSS, they care for the characters, the CSS is the result of it, not the opposite. And I think most people will agree with me when I say that having more characters with a scrollable CSS is much more impressive than 47 "all at once"

 

[hotcrumpets]

I don't know if this has been stated but the 3ds screen has to scroll to even fit just the characters we have confirmed now, The tokens on the 3ds demo roster each fit 1/4 of a character icon, making them any smaller and you won't be able to fit all 4 on the icon, so ya the 3ds screen is scrolling.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

I'm just stating what I see to be feasible, I don't see why the 3ds roster can't scroll. It wouldn't be tiresome, assuming they implement it reasonably. I can imagine them making the screen scroll with the L and R buttons.

It would be a good way to have a high character count and retain the pretty look of the roster.

Edit: Oh and having more characters than one screen can handle would come across as impressive.

Scrolling is very weak in terms of design, especially when it has just been proven that every character can fit on a single screen. Scrolling grows ever-weaker as a design as the roster grows. Meaning it will take more and more time to get to the character you want the larger the roster is because the scroll has to happen!

Your edit could be applied to the DLC CSS which, contrary to having to wait for the cursor and screen to scroll, would be as simple to use as tapping the 'DLC' button on the bottom screen.

You're implying anyone cares more for the aesthetic of the CSS than the playable characters. "Ugh! I can only see half the roster at the time, 0/10"
Literally no one cares for the CSS, they care for the characters, the CSS is the result of it, not the opposite. And I think most people will agree with me when I say that having more characters with a scrollable CSS is much more impressive than 47 "all at once"

Well gee why don't we just MUGEN it up and have 200+ characters because CHARACTERS GUYS! Design process, proper UI, good aesthetics, those are all bunk and garbage. WOOOOOOOO!

I don't know if this has been stated but the 3ds screen has to scroll to even fit just the characters we have confirmed now, The tokens on the 3ds demo roster each fit 1/4 of a character icon, making them any smaller and you won't be able to fit all 4 on the icon, so ya the 3ds screen is scrolling.

Video proof, now. I saw the CSS and there was no scrolling. The token can be easily downsized to match the roster screens.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Double post.

 

[hotcrumpets]

Well gee why don't we just MUGEN it up and have 200+ characters because CHARACTERS GUYS! Design process, proper UI, good aesthetics, those are all bunk and garbage. WOOOOOOOO!



Video proof, now. I saw the CSS and there was no scrolling. The token can be easily downsized to match the roster screens.

Clam down its going to be ok, its highly unlikely that the token will be downsized seeing as how that has never happened in any smash bros game, even when the icons in brawl got smaller. So its going to have to scroll, unless they make the tokens smaller which would make no sense.

 

[Deleted member]

"Having a separate page for the DLC is fine, but having it without DLC is a sin"

 

[Xenorange]

Scrolling is fine, as long as the scroll speed is reasonably fast.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Clam down its going to be ok, its highly unlikely that the token will be downsized seeing as how that has never happened in any smash bros game, even when the icons in brawl got smaller. So its going to have to scroll, unless they make the tokens smaller which would make no sense.

The token downsizing makes perfect sense because it can still be tied to the player that owns it via color. It doesn't need to have the '1', 'CP', etc. There's no need for scrolling. At all. No one is listening to logic, reason, and aesthetic, and it is infuriating to deal with.

"Having a separate page for the DLC is fine, but having it without DLC is a sin"

... What?

Scrolling is fine, as long as the scroll speed is reasonably fast.

It will never be as fast as just working at-a-glance. I'm not even arguing the merits of scrolling versus at-a-glance(because it's clear who's the winner), I'm arguing why the roster is 47 + random USING aesthetics and logic as a springboard.

 

[hotcrumpets]

The token downsizing makes perfect sense because it can still be tied to the player that owns it via color. It doesn't need to have the '1', 'CP', etc. There's no need for scrolling. At all. No one is listening to logic, reason, and aesthetic, and it is infuriating to deal with.



... What?

Your infuriating to deal with, posters have explained to you why you are wrong in thinking 47 is the be all end all roster size when 1. its a demo css
2 the tokens barely fit on the icons as is and it would be more likely that they just make the 3ds scroll instead
3. you contradicted yourself saying its ok for a separate page for dlc but we can't have a separate page to fit all the characters,and the icons need to be downsized a lot, even though it would make it hard to place all 4 tokens on 1 icon and it would just look bad that way
4. the roster is not being decided by how much characters sakurai could fit on the css demo screen.

 

[Xenorange]

The token downsizing makes perfect sense because it can still be tied to the player that owns it via color. It doesn't need to have the '1', 'CP', etc. There's no need for scrolling. At all. No one is listening to logic, reason, and aesthetic, and it is infuriating to deal with.



... What?



It will never be as fast as just working at-a-glance. I'm not even arguing the merits of scrolling versus at-a-glance(because it's clear who's the winner), I'm arguing why the roster is 47 + random USING aesthetics and logic as a springboard.

I guess I'll be needing a microscope to play the new smash then.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Your infuriating to deal with, posters have explained to you why you are wrong in thinking 47 is the be all end all roster size when 1. its a demo css
2 the tokens barely fit on the icons as is and it would be more likely that they just make the 3ds scroll instead
3. you contradicted yourself saying its ok for a separate page for dlc but we can't have a separate page to fit all the characters,and the icons need to be downsized a lot, even though it would make it hard to place all 4 tokens on 1 icon and it would just look bad that way
4. the roster is not being decided by how much characters sakurai could fit on the css demo screen.

I guess I'll be needing a microscope to play the new smash then.

WOW. IT'S SO TINY AND I CANT TELL WHO IS WHO AT ALL.

What about being a demo CSS makes it so that spatial requirements no longer matter? What IS this sorcery?

Make the tokens the size of this O and it's clear that everything would work just fine. The UI as a whole on the top screen simply scales as more slots are unlocked. And look, no need for scrolling at all. Plus, it's not like tokens can't OVERLAP.

What are you talking about? When did I contradict myself? My argument has been consistent. Simple design. DLC characters on their own CSS. The on-board CSS doesn't get cluttered.

I'm not arguing that was his reason for choosing 47 + Random. I doubt he even consciously decided on a specific number. I'm arguing that 47 + Random is the reality we're looking at based on the design presented thus far.

EDIT: Hey, here's some fun. Make up YOUR mockup. Show me what YOU think the roster is. Don't use Roster Maker, make a 1:1 mockup and present your case. I've made the case for 47 + Random. Let's see the case for 51 + Random.

 

[Xenorange]

View attachment 16652

WOW. IT'S SO TINY AND I CANT TELL WHO IS WHO AT ALL.

What about being a demo CSS makes it so that spatial requirements no longer matter? What IS this sorcery?

Make the tokens the size of this O and it's clear that everything would work just fine. The UI as a whole on the top screen simply scales as more slots are unlocked. And look, no need for scrolling at all. Plus, it's not like tokens can't OVERLAP.

What are you talking about? When did I contradict myself? My argument has been consistent. Simple design. DLC characters on their own CSS. The on-board CSS doesn't get cluttered.

I'm not arguing that was his reason for choosing 47 + Random. I doubt he even consciously decided on a specific number. I'm arguing that 47 + Random is the reality we're looking at based on the design presented thus far.

EDIT: Hey, here's some fun. Make up YOUR mockup. Show me what YOU think the roster is. Don't use Roster Maker, make a 1:1 mockup and present your case. I've made the case for 47 + Random. Let's see the case for 51 + Random.

Token size has never decreased before, though I suppose you could say the same thing about a scrolling screen.

Edit: and yeah, that's pretty small.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Token size has never decreased before, though I suppose you could say the same thing about a scrolling screen.

The token has never had to shrink because of the larger display on the consoles. With the 3DS though, you have a different medium to operate in. Therefore, the token has to shrink(unless they simply overlap, which HAS happened in Smash before).

 

[Xenorange]

The token has never had to shrink because of the larger display on the consoles. With the 3DS though, you have a different medium to operate in. Therefore, the token has to shrink(unless they simply overlap, which HAS happened in Smash before).

Wow that would be one small token bro, you just want everything about this game to be small don't yah?

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 16652

WOW. IT'S SO TINY AND I CANT TELL WHO IS WHO AT ALL.

What about being a demo CSS makes it so that spatial requirements no longer matter? What IS this sorcery?

Make the tokens the size of this O and it's clear that everything would work just fine. The UI as a whole on the top screen simply scales as more slots are unlocked. And look, no need for scrolling at all. Plus, it's not like tokens can't OVERLAP.

What are you talking about? When did I contradict myself? My argument has been consistent. Simple design. DLC characters on their own CSS. The on-board CSS doesn't get cluttered.

I'm not arguing that was his reason for choosing 47 + Random. I doubt he even consciously decided on a specific number. I'm arguing that 47 + Random is the reality we're looking at based on the design presented thus far.

EDIT: Hey, here's some fun. Make up YOUR mockup. Show me what YOU think the roster is. Don't use Roster Maker, make a 1:1 mockup and present your case. I've made the case for 47 + Random. Let's see the case for 51 + Random.

Have you even tried to see this at the tiny 3DS screen? I can barely read some of the names, the icons CANNOT get smaller in the standard 3DS without making it almost impossible to look at it.
http://i.imgur.com/0vGQS63.png
Zoom with 125% to make it the same size as the 3DS screen and then tell me how it's possible to shrunk the icons without making it impossible to see

 

[Erimir]

In what world? The DLC CSS only comes up when you call it. Were it scrolling, the "there's more stuff over here" arrow would get in the way of the entire left/right/top/bottom/ of the character display until you centered the screen. And that's if you know the layout! Why complicate the selection process when you just want an on-disc character, especially if one happens to be in the middle position of the roster. Cool, an easter egg hunt if I want to play Dedede or R.O.B.! Boy, good thing it scrolls, I might actually be able to locate my desired character in less than a second, and that's just too fast! Only hedgehogs can handle that!

Because apparently if a character is DLC, I will only occasionally want to play as them?

If you assume that people actually want to play as DLC characters, don't all those same complaints apply to your DLC tab?

You can't use the touch-screen to navigate the CSS on the 3DS, so you'll have to scroll through 20+ characters via the D-pad,

It could also be done via the L and R buttons, and it could move over multiple columns at a time. That would not require many button presses. I specifically mentioned that earlier, but you ignored it apparently.

You're right, though, instant information is terribad. :\

Yeah, and a button press is terribad too

I never said that. Learn to argue without straw men.

It's a design philosophy that proves itself time and time again. Simpler and more direct is better.

Apparently you don't know what a non sequitur is.

Since you're pretending I said things I didn't, I won't bother explaining it to you. Using Google is your friend.

Why are you looking at the columns as independent units? They're designed as part of each fighters' cell. Each CELL is uniform in design and size. There is such a thing as negative space, you know!

Because the columns maintain the same width from top to bottom?

You're saying I can't look at the width of the column separately from the height of the rows?

Each column is made up of 4 fighters' cells. Not sure how you think columns are part of a cell within that column.

And I don't know how your comment about negative space is relevant in any way to what I said.

I got 5:4 on the measurements of my cells. The overall isn't terribly important so long as it's reasonably approximate. 5:4 on a 5:3 is fine. 16:9 on a 5:3 is not.

That would be a sensible thing to say, if anyone had suggested making the cells be a 16:9 width-to-height ratio. Which they didn't...

Stating simply that one does not simply design for 5:3 the same as one would for 16:9.

Oh so you mean the screens are different? I hadn't noticed til now

My point is that because of the extra space available they can do a bit more with the CSS, and thus looking at the CSS on the Wii U is actually detrimental when trying to determine roster size because there are more variables that come into play.

If you think that the 3DS screen pre-determined the roster size, then yes.

If you think that Sakurai put in the number of characters he wanted and then designed the CSS, then no.

Your whole thing basically rests on Sakurai being constrained to 47 characters by the 3DS. If he chose to put in 50 characters, or 55, he would just find a way to make it work on the 3DS.

You're saying if he was at 49 characters, he would cut two of them? In order to maintain what is, in your view, the perfect 3DS menu? Because the menus are more important than the content, apparently?

Your words.

"Your words," he says like he has some bulletproof "gotcha". Try rereading "my words" before you respond to triumphantly in the future.

"We'll use the Wii U CSS layout for the 3DS! It'll just scroll! It'll be neato, I promise!" Each CSS, and indeed each element in a design needs to be unique and work differently for the medium upon which it's presented.

Do you like, read people's posts and just assume they're saying the most idiotic thing, or do you consider that maybe people who aren't you aren't all idiots... and therefore they may have meant something different from that? Because what I said did not mean what you interpreted it to mean.

Read what I said again:

Allowing the same layout as the Wii U is something that would appeal to Sakurai as well, since if he puts as much thought into the position of characters as the people in here are doing, it's a lot easier to not have to do it twice or come up with a unified character order that works on both.

Now, read it again, while assuming that I'm not an idiot.

It should be quite obvious by context that when I said "layout", I meant positions of the characters relative to each other.

See where I said "position of characters" and "character order" in the same sentence where I use the word "layout" again, making it clear that they are referring to the same thing?

Got it now? Good.

Sakurai [...] will not leave uneven slots or gaps in the design.

Except when he did in Melee.

Boy, my CTRL, C, and V buttons are getting worn out.

Probably because you can't come up with something different to say. I hope you won't mind me skipping over your tiresome repetition.

So why am I having to explain why scrolling is bad if we can agree UI design needs to be concise?! Why? Why? WHY? WHY?!

Maybe because your opinions are not the obvious truth you clearly think them to be. Most people with theory of mind understand how others can have differing opinions.

For example, I would prefer a larger roster to a perfectly rectangular CSS that fits everyone on the same 3DS screen. I am perfectly willing to scroll in exchange for more content. I also happen to think that Sakurai might agree, and pick the roster based on what content he would like to include, not based on what allows the ideal CSS on the 3DS.

Apparently, to you, this is a bizarre and very wrong wrong WRONG thought.

ON THE WII U. You infuriate me further with every letter I read. You CANNOT use the same metric on 3DS as you do on the Wii U. That is stupid. The 3DS's top screen is a unique medium and needs to be treated and addressed as such!

This doesn't seem relevant to what I said.

Please, don't ever do science. You do not have the discipline to conduct experiments if you're willing to accept variables so blatantly. Right, professionalism.

You realize I can still read the struck through text, right?

I went to a magnet school for science. I have two master degrees, one in linguistics and one in computer science. I have multiple published papers in academic journals.

My advice for you regarding science is that you won't be able to write a publishable journal article or convince anyone to collaborate with you if this is how you argue your case.

And another science tip: sample size is important. How many do we have here? Three previous games. You think there's something scientific about your argument?

Hokay, I'm going to ask you a question. Why do you think you'll get a better answer to a question out of observing a scenario with more variables(Wii U extra space, resizing, etc) than a scenario with less variables(3DS screen size)?

That depends entirely on the question.

Do you think "fewer variables is better" is some scientific principle? Because it's not. There are many models that I'm aware of (in my field anyway) which get cutting edge performance using positively enormous feature sets.

One must, of course, accurately estimate statistical significance and performance when doing so. If you look at, say, predicting presidential elections and pick out 40 variables, and 3 of them are significant at the 5% level... well, you checked 40 things, at a 5% p-value, you'd already expect two of them to appear to be significant by chance. Without a theoretical grounding behind your choices, just throwing all the variables you can think of, you must adjust your significance calculations to take that into account.

And when you use large feature sets, you must take care to ensure that you are not simply overfitting your training set. The use of dev and test sets, and procedures like multi-fold cross-validation are useful checks against overfitting.

Is that what you meant? Because that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. We have a sample size of 3 Smash games and a demo. None of these things are applicable. Nothing we do will reach statistical significance.

Exactly what other size would they be?! Good gods, don't tell me you're someone vouching for portrait-style CSS screens with text on the boxes themselves.

Ummm, well... I would say that rectangles can have infinitely many ratios between their widths and heights, but there are pixels in this case, so it's not quite infinite. But suffice it to say, there are more options than 16:9 and 4:3, including many options between those two values.

I imagine that they would pick the proportions so as to attractively display the roster they created, whatever size that might be.

But also I measured the box, and it was 4:3. Now, in Brawl the proportions changed, so it's possible it might, you know, be slightly different from 4:3 on the full roster screen.

Right. Yes. Scrolling around and trying to find an DLC character set into a changing roster order is LESS WORK than hitting a button.

I wasn't comparing scrolling and hitting a button. I was just pointing out, given how much importance you put on everything be displayed on one screen, that it was incongruous that you were portraying the ease of adding a second screen for DLC as a positive. In that case, why not display all the characters, including DLC, on one screen?

Just gonna Ctrl+V this a FEW MORE TIMES.

Copypasta does not make you more persuasive, you know.

You decipher information all of the time. Just because there's no Jeopardy! music in the background or it's not a codeword doesn't mean you're not working to understand it

Requiring effort to physically see things is not the same as requiring effort to understand.

It's like saying printing the same story on two pages is harder to decipher than a printing the whole thing on one sheet. They have nothing to do with each other. They are just as easy to understand. Or do you understand books differently depending on whether they're printed in paperback or hardback (which usually comes with a different page count)?

(given your post quality though, maybe you're not working to understand things).

I've seen multiple, blatant misreadings of my posts in your replies. I hope you can infer what I'm getting at.

YES IT DOES. YES IT DOES. YES IT DOES.

Let's put this to a test! Read both sentences, and tell me which you were able to decipher first: .hsiloof era uoY VS You are foolish.

Printing information on two pages is not analogous to reversing the letters in a sentence.

Would you like to attempt to explain why they are?

Electricity takes the path of least resistance. I suspect game development energy operates on the same principle. Why create busy work for yourself, unless you are genuinely insane and hate life?

The menu is a rather minor part of development compared to the content.

You're saying the path of least resistance is to limit their content in order to fit with the menu screen, rather than to create the content the way they want it and then adapt the menu screen to fit it.

So now I'll have arrows cluttering up my scrolling CSS I'm trying to navigate?

You realize that the 3DS and Wii U home menus work kinda like this, right?

Tell me, what happens when you download something new on your 3DS? Are you incapable of finding it later?

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Wow that would be one small token bro, you just want everything about this game to be small don't yah?

Wowzers! I wonder what players picked which characters? Golly, I sure wish I could see it, but if only it scrolled! THEN I'd be able to see who picked who!

Have you even tried to see this at the tiny 3DS screen? I can barely read some of the names, the icons CANNOT get smaller in the standard 3DS without making it almost impossible to look at it.
http://i.imgur.com/0vGQS63.png
Zoom with 125% to make it the same size as the 3DS screen and then tell me how it's possible to shrunk the icons without making it impossible to see

The mockup I made took about an hour, tops. A narrower font choice could work wonders while allowing everything to remain on a single screen.

 

[Erimir]

View attachment 16654

Wowzers! I wonder what players picked which characters? Golly, I sure wish I could see it, but if only it scrolled! THEN I'd be able to see who picked who!

The CSS does not display tokens for people you are playing online.

It displays them for computers, if you have the option to choose the computer players. As you will be selecting the computer player yourself, and it will be visible on the lower screen, it's hard to see how the screen scrolling would make it hard to see who picked who. Is it in case you forgot in the ten seconds since you picked the computer's character and are incapable of looking at the lower screen?

 

[Xenorange]

View attachment 16654

Wowzers! I wonder what players picked which characters? Golly, I sure wish I could see it, but if only it scrolled! THEN I'd be able to see who picked who!



The mockup I made took about an hour, tops. A narrower font choice could work wonders while allowing everything to remain on a single screen.

Good god man, that token is microscopic!!! You can't be serious anymore right? The joke ends here right?

 

[hotcrumpets]

View attachment 16654

Wowzers! I wonder what players picked which characters? Golly, I sure wish I could see it, but if only it scrolled! THEN I'd be able to see who picked who!



The mockup I made took about an hour, tops. A narrower font choice could work wonders while allowing everything to remain on a single screen.

Your just helping me prove my point that you can't shrink the tokens, it looks way too small.