5 years of Brawl: Are people good or bad now?

[Grim Tuesday]

I miss the old days of commentating where I could rely on trash-talking black guys for hype, and Husband/Wife for the play-by-play.

 

[Luco]

I'm going to disagree with the general statement on this topic.

I'd call myself somewhere in the mid range of players (I hope i'm not overrating myself here D=) - I went to my country's national a couple of weeks back and had the unfortunate luck of getting into pro bracket only to encounter 2nd in the state and possibly the country on my third match (who in retrospect I may not have even made it to if it wasn't for ^ this guy). We played and I got three stocked the first match. I wanna clarify here. I've always been anti-ban and I still am anti-ban on MK. That said, although my decision making obviously needs work (as with any game, obviously decision making is a big deal in anything!) as a mid-level player, I feel like a lot of what contributed to my downfall was pure spacing and reaction on this player's part. I would Fair and as soon as I was done he'd respond with grounded shuttle loop. I'd go to approach, shield his Fair and wouldn't be in any sort of range to do anything from it, etc etc etc. The match pretty much played out this way and I can even link you to the set if you really want (*embarrassed*). I'd count reaction in some cases as skill in this regard - I don't think if something unsafe on block hits your shield, you punishing that is only 'good decision making'. Some of these things get ingrained, etc.

Just the other day I teched off of Smashville's side from a Ness' PKT2 at around 65% for the first time and i've been playing this game for around 2 years competitively and about 3 total. The other thing I discovered only the day before yesterday was grabbing people when they're on the ledge.

What i'm saying is, i'm a committed player (perhaps ridiculously so) and yet i'm nowhere near being so top level. Some do have more talent for it than others but I wouldn't say that just because i'm not top doesn't mean i don't have any 'talent'. I think that Brawl is a much deeper game than people give it credit for and that both decision-making and tech skill/reaction play gigantic roles in its competitive shaping. I feel like CT zero is absolutely right in a lot of his argument. I feel like it will take me time to reach a better level not because i'm not talented or don't main a HT/TT character but rather because there's so much to Brawl I need to perfect. The biggest ones being MU exp, timing (punishments) and spacing, the latter of which Shaya would be happy to write you a novel on (). But on a serious note, those latter 2 especially are particularly 'technical-based' and thus I feel as though Brawl is a game which heavily involves a lot of both the player reads, the character's capabilities and strategy and the technical skill. Ask top players about this - I'm reasonably sure you'll get answers along those lines.

So, that's why I disagree. Sorry for the poor structure or rather, the messy thoughts scattered everywhere haha. :o

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Somewhat unrelated, but I'd say Lucas doesn't have many safe options on the approach against threatening characters like MK; you're going to need to work on patience and ensuring that all of your actions are deliberate (no auto-pilot responses to things, or throwing out moves 'just in case') more than spacing and timing to win an uphill match-up like that.

Just my 2 cents though. Your playstyle reminds me of Nikes a lot, and I tell him similar things, though I didn't really get to see you play much.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like Brawl when playing the higher tier/all areas proficient characters (MK, Falco, Marth, ZSS, Diddy) is really about timing, and that timing the right things properly to the right degrees (yes, literally) is quite hard. It is actually really really really really really hard. To the point that there are a whole range of players who are actively choosing the right options in the right situations but are succeeding or failing based on whether they were holding a direction for X frames, or placed their attack or defensive input at Y. A player who would have used fair just a few frames later (or sometimes earlier) in so many occasions would have One Hundred Percent been a positive result, the same LOGICAL DECISION otherwise was a failure/getting punished. The player who fast falled earlier or later would've done this and that, etc etc etc etc
The lower you go down the list the more tight/more proficient with timing and execution you need to be competitive, and being that capable with your character allows you to beat nearly everyone in the meta. At a point some of the best characters are so safe/fast in general that there really are no leeways, if two players are getting the same amount of properly executed movements including power shields, the MK, ZSS, Marth, Olimar, etc are going to win.

I consider this technical. It's something you're not only having to place into muscle memory but also have it strongly based on reaction. People are so far away from that though. And I can see it so plainly at a majority of levels of play... Then you have this amazing threshold that players are actually breaching and furthermore implementing dynamic reads into it and you see how easy it is for them to blitzkrieg through everyone and force this game to be played faster just to compete.

And people think their pissy notion of buffering in this game is what others (ZeRo) are talking about here. Buffering things in tight situations from shields is usually less than 10 frames. There are too many OP movements in this game that are less than 10 frames to think that you've got THE BIGGEST TECHNICAL BARRIER IN THE GAME down within 6 months of playing. If you play your game in a way that you always get 10 frame buffer windows, you're actually playing too slowly and/or likely leaving quite significant punishment holes open for better players to decimate you with.

oh yeah everything top-tiery applies to ICs too, who over exemplify it so much to actually be relatively capable with them that you automatically whitewash a majority of the playing field because you naturally understand the game better than they do. Isn't it great that people are BAD?

 

[Vinylic.]

I basically still suck, and kirby's the only character play. Getting stuck between me and a good player that can destroy me in 3 minutes, in 2 rounds, in one set, is definitely not something I'll learn just as quick, and it's sad because I'm still gonna be at put from low to dead last after paying money for a tournament I wasn't exactly prepared for. I'm getting better, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna get better every time an event is happening.

Every round is the same thing for me:
I almost had it.
I messed up.
My hands are shaking wildly.
I end up upset because I lost too early.

Now a tournament I attended was recently over and I'm awaiting for the results. I may have gotten better, but I'm still not there. I've been one-stocked since 2012, and I'm basically tired of losing.

Meh, anyways.

Most people aren't getting worse. They're just progressing at a slow rate due to lack of learning and practice, not enough friendlies and smashfests, especially people hang around with and ask for assistance on what problem they're having. They need to control themselves more then controlling the character they play with.

two cents.

 

[Demna]

I basically still suck, and kirby's the only character play. Getting stuck between me and a good player that can destroy me in 3 minutes, in 2 rounds, in one set, is definitely not something I'll learn just as quick, and it's sad because I'm still gonna be at put from low to dead last after paying money for a tournament I wasn't exactly prepared for. I'm getting better, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna get better every time an event is happening.

Every round is the same thing for me:
I almost had it.
I messed up.
My hands are shaking wildly.
I end up upset because I lost too early.

Now a tournament I attended was recently over and I'm awaiting for the results. I may have gotten better, but I'm still not there. I've been one-stocked since 2012, and I'm basically tired of losing.

Meh, anyways.

Most people aren't getting worse. They're just progressing at a slow rate due to lack of learning and practice, not enough friendlies and smashfests, especially people hang around with and ask for assistance on what problem they're having. They need to control themselves more then controlling the character they play with.

two cents.

When a person is losing, that person should pinpoint the problem/weaknesses. It might be that you lack technical skill due to the lack of practice, or that you don't about a couple of advanced techniques that will ultimately help you win the game. Another possibility is that you didn't master your character enough, or have a complex idea about the opponent's character. Those factors, if mastered or solved, will make you much stronger in the game (Reads and reactions are also essential).

 

[Double Helix]

Melee player here. I openly will say that I think that Melee has a higher technical ceiling than Brawl, simply because there are more advanced techs. For the most part, they test the same abilities in different ways. Spacing, zoning, reads, and the other fighting game basics are really tested in both games in very different ways. I don't feel I could ever be very good at Brawl due to the simple fact that I won't put as much time into it as I do Melee and I am fine with that. Sorry to bring back a kinda done thread, but I think the real problem is nobody has posted a Melee vs Brawl thread that was meant to simply compare the games rather than say one is better than the other. It should be a thread that is stickied on the Melee and Brawl forums honestly.

Now for my thoughts on the topic at hand. I feel as though Melee simply rewards punishes better than Brawl does due to the physics engine and some of the mechanical differences in tech skill and overall options. Brawl rewards consistent play by playing more like Street Fighter than King of Fighters. Can't say Marvel, that's Smash64. Honestly, it is just a difference in style. I prefer Melee; people in this neck of the boards generally prefer Brawl.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because most people can't think of "compare" without "decide which one is better" and those kinda topics always go off hand.

Spoiler

There is a thread somewhere here on SWF where AmazingAmpharos tried to say that Melee community was (for the most part, or at least the most vocal one) way too abrasive when Brawl came up causing a) discourage on many players to keep playing, b) communities division and c) third parties bad impression about the games. He finished his note trying to recommend people not to bash SSB4 in case it didn't fit their taste.
Then, those very vocal people from the melee community got very harsh about it and started attacking HIM for defending Brawl.

Collapse TL;DR - Starting that one topic is playing on thin ice, just waiting for an incoming disaster.

 

[Ghostbone]

Kyokoro, that's a lie, melee players weren't bashing him or brawl, they were defending their right to play a game they like, rofl. His post implied that Melee players should have given up Melee to help the Brawl community succeed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

inb4 here we go again

 

[Dark 3nergy]

One is always learning, what makes or breaks some folk is whether or not they have the capacity to see outside of what they're doing and make adjustments where they need it. It's hard to do, even harder if your own area lacks the capacity to get better. If there is no willingness to get better in a region everyone suffers. Which is why I highly disapprove of elitism in any form. Be original, be yourself, play who you wanna play, the rest will follow.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I don't see why people said Zero was being an elitist. He literally was pointing out the fact that OP said something along the lines of "it takes 6 months to master everything" meanwhile he isn't even at that level so how does he even know?

 

[tarextherex]

One thing's for sure, everyone who is an active poster on this site is really bad

 

[Deleted member 189823]

There are also chances of top players being wrong and lower-skilled players to be well-versed and know a lot of things and still playing bad for whatever reason.

Just chances anyway.

I actually go through a similiar case. In my community, I know the most reguarding the game. Frame-data, metagame and general game stuff. However, that is all useless for me because I completely fail at putting it to work, even losing to players who don't even know what a B-Reversal is.

Also, CT Zero. What is the reason for such high standards regarding play level? How come a mere "good" is only a player who can compete and even win in a tournament of predominating Top level players (you know, such as yourself) when top level is, well...top. The highest humanly possible at the moment. What is "great", then? Someone legendary? Godly, even?

 

[Double Helix]

I think I would play Brawl if I didn't enjoy trying to get good at pressing a lot of buttons then using that to, in the end, test very similar skills that you guys do. Plus Melee looks flashy and cool. Combos are awesome. XD

In any case, I hope Smash4 is a success. I won't give up Melee, but if I could get good at both then maybe I won't start like...11 years behind and have to catch up. Defining a metagame would be really cool.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kyokoro, that's a lie, melee players weren't bashing him or brawl, they were defending their right to play a game they like, rofl. His post implied that Melee players should have given up Melee to help the Brawl community succeed.

You could try to re-read it.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm good dood.

 

[Shaya]

I don't know why this has turned into a melee discussion.
So stop.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm good dood.

win apex and come back to me brah

 

[Seagull Joe]

win apex and come back to me brah

I use dood. That's hard.

 

[popdrops]

Eryx Vexia you are one of the worst posters/biggest trolls I've ever seen on smashboards, please just stop posting. Please, honestly just stop. It's not even funny