Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Jr in Smash ultimate has a few changes, his rapid jab finisher is now an uppercut, cannonball has less startup and endlag and you can now have two cannonballs at a time, pummel is much slower, and Kart Dash has less pushback. These are some pretty small changes but they might be improvements from Jr in Smash 4.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Don't forget that this isn't the final version of the game though. They still have more balancing to do, so all of this may change.

 

[Nah]

oh wow, they made trailers for literally everyone

Don't think that outside of really obvious things there's not much to get from 20-25 sec trailers (especially when we can't play them ourselves yet), and release day is still 6 months away, so things could certainly change in that time.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Reposting this here because this is actually pretty important. I've heard conflicting reports that it's actually a universal frame 3 jump squat and not no jump squat but either way this buffs a lot of characters. I remember people egging on Robin because her strong aerials uses to be stuck on a frame 7 jump squat but not no more.
https://twitter.com/McDareth/status/1006713135649001472

 

[J0eyboi]

limit disappears after fifteen seconds, nair is smaller, dair has a lil more lag, can't fastfall upair grounded ppl and up air is more easily contestable, and lcs is weaker
not really that bad, considering he'll probably thrive off of movement options and bair might have even less landing, you can probably still nairplane people, plsu airdidge reads......eh, he's got most of his tools, he'll likely be fine.

He really doesn't though. He lost landing uair and rising Nair (if I understand what you're saying, haven't seen his trailer myself); those two moves alone are a massive part of his neutral. Limit being limited, the smaller ledgesnap radius, and the smaller Nair will utterly gut his recovery, and Uair being contestable will make his advantage state weaker too. Oh, and he can't kill nearly as well, due to the limit changes. Basically, he's worse at everything now. He could be buffed before release, but as it is now, he doesn't seem all too good.

Roy looks basically the same from what they showed, with one major change: Blazer is more angleable and faster. Oh, and the turnaround special thing could actually be really useful for ledgetrapping.

 

[Ordeaux26]

two jumps

do you mean 2 midair jumps or 1 on the ground and 1 in midair

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ness in Smash Ultimate seemed to have some changes.

For example, his infamous headbutt is replaced with peach's up air. Not that strong and great as the previous iteration but it is still pretty good. He has a new animation on PK Fire and PSI Magnet got a buffed as it now has a larger hitbox.

PK Thunder is pretty much the same but I think it was nerfed slightly, less tighter arc and its slightly slower to wind up to PK2. Still barely noticable. Oh yeah PKT can bounce.

His down throw combo is still there but it is harder to do because of its different angle.

B-Throw is still stupid strong as always.

He also seemed to have a new idle animation as well.

Overall, Ness is pretty good and may be viable but who knows...

Also, Fox is heavily nerfed in that game, FeelsBadMan..

He seems to have a quite a bit of range buffs, such as his new up air and n-air having disjointed hitboxes and improved reach. Also his PK Fire's new animation is marginally slower than the previous one, although it is definitely a much needed change if you go on For Glory. Also, his magnet has a hitbox now? The PK Thunder changes seem to be a mixed bag, although I consider an overall buff, but time will tell. Overall, he seems to be viable once again, but we will have to wait.

Some character's down throws in general, such as the Mario Bros, are nerfed in terms of combo-ing, though this seems to be compensated by the majority of moves having less lag and connecting more reliably into other moves (as seen with ZeRo's Mario).

Btw, the physics in the game is going to help Lucas immensely from the looks of things. Judging from his short video (each fighter has a short video on them on the Smash Bros website), he seems to have some direct buffs as well (his PSI Magnet looks stupidly buffed lol). Overall, I have some good expectations for him this time around.

Is is true about Fox? Bummer. Falco's lasers seems to shoot faster and has less lag, so he is a better character already. XD

Despite Bayonetta getting nerfed. She still got some bs stuff, such as this 4 stock massacre.

"Bayo sucks now" pic.twitter.com/R9c5xnqggV

— Tylor (@theSirToasty) June 12, 2018

The fact that Green Greens has a Flat Zone-esque vertical blastzone, and Plup was playing the largest character in the game didn't help. lol

Welp they buffed the Sh** out of Pacman. Faster grab with no "Roy zones", Fruit cycles faster, F-air more Hitstun, More range on Side-B/less end lag, MUCH stronger B-air, Hydrant lasts longer (Though I heard people say that might be nerf)

I even saw him being able to use his jab to cancel the water. If other fighters can do the same, it is overall a nerf, but it makes setups easier... yeah, he is stupidly buffed, and it is cool to see his grab actually function like in Galaga instead of it being a sad excuse for a grab.

On a side note on talking about SSB4's low tiered characters, while I like Ganondorf's and Zelda's redesign and buffs, they kinda seemed underpowered in comparison to everyone else, especially considering the seemingly good buffs given to Jigglypuff (according to it's short video).

 

[Lord Dio]

do you mean 2 midair jumps or 1 on the ground and 1 in midair

double jump

He really doesn't though. He lost landing uair and rising Nair (if I understand what you're saying, haven't seen his trailer myself); those two moves alone are a massive part of his neutral. Limit being limited, the smaller ledgesnap radius, and the smaller Nair will utterly gut his recovery, and Uair being contestable will make his advantage state weaker too. Oh, and he can't kill nearly as well, due to the limit changes. Basically, he's worse at everything now. He could be buffed before release, but as it is now, he doesn't seem all too good.

Roy looks basically the same from what they showed, with one major change: Blazer is more angleable and faster. Oh, and the turnaround special thing could actually be really useful for ledgetrapping.

he lost a couple things, he still hasinsane bair pressue, up air juggling, can make directional airdodging reads, and can still likely nairplane you.
He'll be fine.

 

[The-Technique]

Judging from what I've seen, Ultimate pretty much plays like an upgraded smash 4, especially from watching Zero v Leo grand finals. I'm a bit disappointed at that but at the same time we have a gigantic roster and tons of balance changes, so overall I'm pretty excited. Doubt melee players are gonna hop over to Ultimate though.

plus the new Ike looks way broken, can't wait to cheese people

 

[Ordeaux26]

Judging from what I've seen, Ultimate pretty much plays like an upgraded smash 4, especially from watching Zero v Leo grand finals. I'm a bit disappointed at that but at the same time we have a gigantic roster and tons of balance changes, so overall I'm pretty excited. Doubt melee players are gonna hop over to Ultimate though.

makes sense but why fix whats broke and melee players probably won't jump over

I wonder will this game end up being 2 stocks or 3 stocks I could honestly go either way

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Is it true about Fox? Bummer. Falco's lasers seems to shoot faster and has less lag, so he is a better character already. XD

Fox is overall weaker in damage output, he cannot shine stall, his illusion will immediately stop when it hits a shielding opponent, his fair is terrible, he can Fair footstool but footstool can be teched in this game anyways, different bair, etc. He has potential to be better but he is definetly nerfed.

Hopefully he will be buffed in release.

Ness up air tho hmm...

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

The game is still in beta phase so things could be changed before the games launch.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

In its current state four stocks will probably be the ideal count when damage outputs are as ridiculous as they are and recoveries are nerfed across the board. Obviously nothing we saw yesterday was even a percentage optimized but you can tell the game is being designed for offense and two stocks definitely won't cut it anymore.

Now obviously this game is in beta mode probably an early version honestly and damage outputs, knockback and hitboxes are all likely to change for many characters so at this point we can only speculate off what we see as far as character strength goes (though we can do decent speculation based off things unlikely to change like Cloud's Limit nerf or reduced jump squat times)

 

[MarioManTAW]

Some things I noticed after watching the invitational (again, this is not the final game so changes might be made pre-release):

Mechanics:
Rage seems to have been rebalanced. Not sure of all the details, but it seems to take effect much later (smoke first appears at 120%).
Gameplay seems to be somewhat between Melee and Smash 4 as some had predicted. The combination, as well as the visual style somewhat reminds me of what I've seen of Icons: Combat Arena.

Stages:
Clearly a lot of returning stages, with fewer newer ones, in a similar vein to the characters.
Battlefield forms of every stage in addition to the flat Omegas is good, but still probably won't be used much.
Battlefield looks great, and FD appears very similar visually (FD seems like basically Omega Battlefield). A light-colored FD also is a nice change of pace.
Something that not many seem to have noticed is that there is now a hazard toggle! This was something briefly mentioned by the commentators going into Grand Finals, but we haven't seen much of it. The only stage that we've seen affected by this is Town and City, which was changed, but perhaps not in the way you'd expect. The moving platforms don't move, but the stage still transforms. It should be interesting to see how this changes other stages as well.

Characters:
Some complain about Bayo not being nerfed, but it seems as though several others have been buffed. Villager is much faster and seems to have better frame data. Not sure what changed about Pac-Man, but he won every game I saw him in. Overall, lots of changes but hard to say until the game comes out.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I hear rage doesn't take true effect until 150+%.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Some complain about Bayo not being nerfed,

but Bayonetta was nerfed its just not completely noticeable

 

[J0eyboi]

Does anyone know where the powershield window is in relation to the shield drop animation, or, for that matter, how long the shield drop animation is? Because if powershielding works the way I hope it doesn't, tomahawking may become much less useful.

but Bayonetta was nerfed its just not completely noticeable

At no point did he say she wasn't.

Honestly, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Shulk yet. If MALLC and all the other Art-based tech is still in the game, then the change to Art selection is a huge buff by itself, and the amount of stupid bull**** you can do with him has increased significantly.

 

[Ordeaux26]

At no point did he say she wasn't.

I know that I'm not talking about MarioManTAW specifically I'm talking about the community that believes that she hasn't been nerfed at all there are clear nefs that she has

New update to Most Hype Smash 4 Sets 2018
Saints Gaming Live 2018 Samsora Vs TweekWinners Semifinals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZYs_xV26pw&t=3s&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US&index=26

 

[The_Bookworm]

Reposting this here because this is actually pretty important. I've heard conflicting reports that it's actually a universal frame 3 jump squat and not no jump squat but either way this buffs a lot of characters. I remember people egging on Robin because her strong aerials uses to be stuck on a frame 7 jump squat but not no more.
https://twitter.com/McDareth/status/1006713135649001472

I consider this an improvement, giving the fighters more ground to air options (alongside the overall decrease to landing lag), speeding up the game. This is going to be a big buff to Robin, who is currently considered below average in the current SSB4 metagame.

Fox is overall weaker in damage output, he cannot shine stall, his illusion will immediately stop when it hits a shielding opponent, his fair is terrible, he can Fair footstool but footstool can be teched in this game anyways, different bair, etc. He has potential to be better but he is definetly nerfed.

Hopefully he will be buffed in release.

Wait, what do you mean you can "tech" footstooling? You can tech the moment the character hops on you?

Something that not many seem to have noticed is that there is now a hazard toggle! This was something briefly mentioned by the commentators going into Grand Finals, but we haven't seen much of it. The only stage that we've seen affected by this is Town and City, which was changed, but perhaps not in the way you'd expect. The moving platforms don't move, but the stage still transforms. It should be interesting to see how this changes other stages as well.

YYYEEEESSSS!!! This is something I wanted in the game ever since playing SSF2.


UPDATE: The school year is over for me. Going to be establishing a thread about the new additions to SSBU and what we have so far! It will take a long time to finish, but I have plenty.

10 more days until Hyrule Saga!

 

[Ordeaux26]

UPDATE: The school year is over for me. Going to be establishing a thread about the new additions to SSBU and what we have so far! It will take a long time to finish, but I have plenty.

10 more days until Hyrule Saga!

lucky for you i still have 2 weeks before school is over for me

 

[ARISTOS]

Judging from what I've seen, Ultimate pretty much plays like an upgraded smash 4, especially from watching Zero v Leo grand finals. I'm a bit disappointed at that but at the same time we have a gigantic roster and tons of balance changes, so overall I'm pretty excited. Doubt melee players are gonna hop over to Ultimate though.

plus the new Ike looks way broken, can't wait to cheese people

Give it time, people aren't implementing new stuff yet

Fox is overall weaker in damage output, he cannot shine stall, his illusion will immediately stop when it hits a shielding opponent, his fair is terrible, he can Fair footstool but footstool can be teched in this game anyways, different bair, etc. He has potential to be better but he is definetly nerfed.

Hopefully he will be buffed in release.
View attachment 148155
Ness up air tho hmm...

Fox change involves universal shield change, moves like Illusion and Bayo Slide-kicks won't pass through a shield. IMO this is fine but not being able to run through a shield is not.

Does anyone know where the powershield window is in relation to the shield drop animation, or, for that matter, how long the shield drop animation is? Because if powershielding works the way I hope it doesn't, tomahawking may become much less useful.



At no point did he say she wasn't.

Honestly, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Shulk yet. If MALLC and all the other Art-based tech is still in the game, then the change to Art selection is a huge buff by itself, and the amount of stupid bull**** you can do with him has increased significantly.

New parry mechanic has a window of at least 4 frames and it actually freezes the opponent in place in their hitlag to give you time to punish. I don't know if the freeze time is universal but Fox's jab 1 had 5 frames of freeze time.

— GimR (@VGBC_GimR) June 13, 2018

 

[MERPIS]

Yo what changed for villager

 

[J0eyboi]

New parry mechanic has a window of at least 4 frames and it actually freezes the opponent in place in their hitlag to give you time to punish. I don't know if the freeze time is universal but Fox's jab 1 had 5 frames of freeze time.

— GimR (@VGBC_GimR) June 13, 2018

Thanks but I was more worried about where it is in relation to the shield drop animation and how long the shield drop animation is.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yo what changed for villager

His frame data appears to have overall improved (aside from his grab), which includes a frame 4 back air. It also helps that arguably his worst matchup (Cloud) was nerfed.

 

[MERPIS]

His frame data appears to have overall improved (aside from his grab), which includes a frame 4 back air. It also helps that arguably his worst matchup (Cloud) was nerfed.

Yeeees.....Goooooood...
Now we just hope for his kill power to be better.
Also bayonetta kills just as much, but depending on if the pellets have transcendent priority like they should, then that matchup may not be that hard.
How's meta knight and mewtwo doing?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Yeeees.....Goooooood...
Now we just hope for his kill power to be better.
Also bayonetta kills just as much, but depending on if the pellets have transcendent priority like they should, then that matchup may not be that hard.
How's meta knight and mewtwo doing?

For Mewtwo, Mewtwo side b in the air halts his movement completely, which is a BIG NERF. Down B animation has more cooldown. His up B, teleport, will have less end lag.

 

[MERPIS]

which is a BIG NERF

It's not THAT bad, just hinders his already amazing recovery a bit
MK is a big one though, nintendo has a history of making him either stupid good or stupid bad, dedede is another one I'm worried over.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For Mewtwo, Mewtwo side b in the air halts his movement completely, which is a BIG NERF. Down B animation has more cooldown.

When Aba played Mewtwo, the character didn't really feel as strong as in SSB4.

Yeeees.....Goooooood...
Now we just hope for his kill power to be better.
Also bayonetta kills just as much, but depending on if the pellets have transcendent priority like they should, then that matchup may not be that hard.
How's meta knight and mewtwo doing?

Meta Knight looks like he has some of his Brawl range back. Other than that, I cannot tell.

It's not THAT bad, just hinders his already amazing recovery a bit
MK is a big one though, nintendo has a history of making him either stupid good or stupid bad, dedede is another one I'm worried over.

Since when has MK ever have been stupid bad?

 

[J0eyboi]

MK is a big one though, nintendo has a history of making him either stupid good or stupid bad, dedede is another one I'm worried over.

But they don't. Brawl MK was broken, 4 MK was broken on release but is fine now.

His frame data appears to have overall improved (aside from his grab), which includes a frame 4 back air. It also helps that arguably his worst matchup (Cloud) was nerfed.

Villy does not have a frame 4 bair. He turns around extremely fast at the beginning of the animation, but there's a fair amount of delay between that and him actually firing the projectile. It's basically the same in terms of startup, maybe a few frames faster (my bet's on frame 10).

 

[The_Bookworm]

But they don't. Brawl MK was broken, 4 MK was broken on release but is fine now.

Actually, MK was buffed in numerous game updates to be as strong as he was prior to 1.1.5. After 1.1.5 hit, he dropped to the upper high tier, but he is stronger than when he was at release.

 

[J0eyboi]

How's meta knight and mewtwo doing?

Mewtwo's worse. Dtilt is noticeably slower, probably as slow as it was in Melee (FAF 30), and Shadow Ball seems like it takes longer to charge but don't quote me on that. Nair's hitbox somehow seems worse, which I wasn't even aware was possible, and his airdodge is probably worse. Fair seems like it has more range, but overall he's been nerfed. You can still DJC neutral-B and down-B at least.

 

[MERPIS]

When Aba played Mewtwo, the character didn't really feel as strong as in SSB4.


Meta Knight looks like he has some of his Brawl range back. Other than that, I cannot tell.


Since when has MK ever have been stupid bad?

Alright got quite a bit here...

1: that’s abadango we’re talking about here

2: I saw that too

3: the release of smash 4 up until 1.0.4

But they don't. Brawl MK was broken, 4 MK was broken on release but is fine now.


Villy does not have a frame 4 bair. He turns around extremely fast at the beginning of the animation, but there's a fair amount of delay between that and him actually firing the projectile. It's basically the same in terms of startup, maybe a few frames faster (my bet's on frame 10).

Its definitely frame 4, it comes out almost instantly

I might as well ask THIS too...
How is kirb and wario doing

 

[J0eyboi]

Its definitely frame 4, it comes out almost instantly

If I knew how to gif, I would show you how completely wrong you are. For now, I'll just tell you to reread what I said after "Villy doesn't have a frame 4 bair".

Anyway, upon closer inspection, it appears that the powershield window overlaps the shield drop animation, which means that that thing I said earlier may be actually relevant.

 

[MERPIS]

If I knew how to gif, I would show you how completely wrong you are. For now, I'll just tell you to reread what I said after "Villy doesn't have a frame 4 bair".

Anyway, upon closer inspection, it appears that the powershield window overlaps the shield drop animation, which means that that thing I said earlier may be actually relevant.

Nope, it's frame 4, there's no time between the pellet coming out and him turning around, accept it.

 

[ARGHETH]

Something that not many seem to have noticed is that there is now a hazard toggle! This was something briefly mentioned by the commentators going into Grand Finals, but we haven't seen much of it. The only stage that we've seen affected by this is Town and City, which was changed, but perhaps not in the way you'd expect. The moving platforms don't move, but the stage still transforms. It should be interesting to see how this changes other stages as well.

Actually, it was also seen on Saffron (no Pokemon) and Frigate Orpheon (stage didn't flip).

 

[J0eyboi]

Nope, it's frame 4, there's no time between the pellet coming out and him turning around, accept it.

I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic anymore. On the off chance you aren't, go to 33:02 and set playback speed to 25%.

 

[MERPIS]

I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic anymore. On the off chance you aren't, go to 33:02 and set playback speed to 25%.

33:15, 25% playback, you'll see

 

[J0eyboi]

33:15, 25% playback, you'll see

I see a frame 10 move, yep. Maybe frame 8.

A frame 4 move at 25% speed should look about as fast as a frame 16 move at 100% speed. Comparing 25% speed ultimate!Villy bair to 100% speed 4!Shulk bair (which is frame 18, not 16, but w/e), Shulk's is clearly much faster. It does look slightly faster than it is in 4, but it's nowhere near frame 4.

 

[MERPIS]

I see a frame 10 move, yep. Maybe frame 8.

A frame 4 move at 25% speed should look about as fast as a frame 16 move at 100% speed. Comparing 25% speed ultimate!Villy bair to 100% speed 4!Shulk bair (which is frame 18, not 16, but w/e), Shulk's is clearly much faster. It does look slightly faster than it is in 4, but it's nowhere near frame 4.

Fix your eyesight

 

[J0eyboi]

Fix your eyesight

Why am I still trying to convince you of something completely obvious

Here's the move viewer page for Bayo's up-B, which is frame 4, for comparison. Should be pretty obvious that Villy's bair is slower.