Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Iridium]

Scizor finally registered for Hyrule Saga (not a joke this time)!

 

[Yonder]

Honestly Nairo, MkLeo, Dabuz, and Tweek all have a chance of winning, it's pretty hard to say seeing as they are all very talented players.

Most to least likely to win: MKleo, Nairo, Dabuz, Tweek.

Just in my opinion. Interesting enough, the players with more pockets (on a high level) seem to have the higher chance of winning, probably due to having answers for more MUs.

MKleo has Marth,Cloud, MK, Lucina, Bayo.

Nairo has ZSS, Bowser

Dabuz has Rosalina, Olimar (haven't seen lately)

Tweek has Bayo, Cloud, and the rotting corpse of Bowser Jr.

 

[Laken64]

Rishi (Don't know who he mains in SSB4)

Last i saw he played corrin and kirby at shots fired.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Most to least likely to win: MKleo, Nairo, Dabuz, Tweek.

Just in my opinion. Interesting enough, the players with more pockets (on a high level) seem to have the higher chance of winning, probably due to having answers for more MUs.

MKleo has Marth,Cloud, MK, Lucina, Bayo.

Nairo has ZSS, Bowser

Dabuz has Rosalina, Olimar (haven't seen lately)

Tweek has Bayo, Cloud, and the rotting corpse of Bowser Jr.

Tweek's DK doesn't see as much use as his Cloud or Bayo, but it's very potent whenever he counterpicks with it. I don't think he'll ever use Jr again, it wouldn't make sense for one of the best Smash 4 players to handicap himself by playing a low tier.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Tweek's DK doesn't see as much use as his Cloud or Bayo, but it's very potent whenever he counterpicks with it. I don't think he'll ever use Jr again, it wouldn't make sense for one of the best Smash 4 players to handicap himself by playing a low tier.

that is what he did at first but yeah he will probably never use bowser jr again

 

[Iridium]

クソ正直にネガダイヤ作らせていただきました。マイナーキャラはさすがに微有利以上のやつ多いと思うんだけどあんま大口叩きたくないんで？？ってことにさせてください。
？？＝maybe slight advantage....???? pic.twitter.com/GrzLT5Pyf8

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

So, this is T's new MU Chart. What do you guys think (I can just sense the denial)? For me, I see T is more optimistic about the Mario MU (given his better performances against them recently).

 

[The_Bookworm]

クソ正直にネガダイヤ作らせていただきました。マイナーキャラはさすがに微有利以上のやつ多いと思うんだけどあんま大口叩きたくないんで？？ってことにさせてください。
？？＝maybe slight advantage....???? pic.twitter.com/GrzLT5Pyf8

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

So, this is T's new MU Chart. What do you guys think (I can just sense the denial)? For me, I see T is more optimistic about the Mario MU (given his better performances against them recently).

Interesting to say the least. He thinks that Link's losing matchups are all just slight advantages (outside of Bowser, which I kinda question about). He seems optimistic on Link.
Also, it seems like most, if not all, of these matchups are kinda based on only his own experience fighting them, emphasis on the large "slight advantage" section and the ?? section.


I have an interesting subject to bring up: How to buff Little Mac's KO Punch.

Here are some ideas, and I want you guys to say which idea suits yourself.
Disclaimer: these are merely ideas and I don't entirely agree on many of them myself. There are options for you guys to choose from.

1. Make KO Punch unable to be lost when Mac is hit, similar to Limit.
2. Make KO Punch KO at 0% like in the trailers.
3. Increase the range of the move.
4. Remove / change it's windbox.
5. Adjust how easily to obtain the punch.
6. None of the above / have different idea.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Interesting to say the least. He thinks that Link's losing matchups are all just slight advantages (outside of Bowser, which I kinda question about). He seems optimistic on Link.
Also, it seems like most of these matchups are kinda based on his own experience fighting them, emphasis on the large "slight advantage" section and the ?? section.

I'm not sure about this matchup chart either but it is his opinion I still wish there was an official matchup chart but it is probably impossible to create one but I do have my own smash 4 matchup chart

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JKXX_-y_y2gg5YUCfcaNj9RgKBuWkoJj1HBSQNdKYe4/edit?usp=sharing

it not saying this matchup chart is accurate I'm also still working on it and not everyone will agree with me but I thought I would remind everybody that it exists

 

[Iridium]

Interesting to say the least. He thinks that Link's losing matchups are all just slight advantages (outside of Bowser, which I kinda question about). He seems optimistic on Link.
Also, it seems like most, if not all, of these matchups are kinda based on only his own experience fighting them, emphasis on the large "slight advantage" section and the ?? section.


I have an interesting subject to bring up: How to buff Little Mac's KO Punch.

Here are some ideas, and I want you guys to say which idea suits yourself.
Disclaimer: these are merely ideas and I don't entirely agree on many of them myself. There are options for you guys to choose from.

1. Make KO Punch unable to be lost when Mac is hit, similar to Limit.
2. Make KO Punch KO at 0% like in the trailers.
3. Increase the range of the move.
4. Remove / change it's windbox.
5. Adjust how easily to obtain the punch.
6. None of the above / have different idea.

I would honestly go for removing the windbox the most. If KO Punch was made to have instant KO abilities however, well, I would not want it to be crazy, so perhaps make it like Shulk's Back Slash, but inverse. Basically, if the opponent faces Little Mac when they get hit, then they will be KO'd easily, but would live to much higher percents if they face away from him, for good balance.

 

[MarioManTAW]

1. Make KO Punch unable to be lost when Mac is hit, similar to Limit.
2. Make KO Punch KO at 0% like in the trailers.
3. Increase the range of the move.
4. Remove / change it's windbox.
5. Adjust how easily to obtain the punch.
6. None of the above / have different idea.

All good ideas, but you're forgetting one: make it actually do something in the air. Yes, I know Mac's not an air fighter but if KO Punch could actually KO when used in the air, I think he'd be a much better character.

 

[Nah]

I'd rather we not buff **** like KO Punch

also I can't tell which end is which on T's MU chart, like is Bowser an advantageous or a disadvantageous MU on his chart?

 

[The_Bookworm]

also I can't tell which end is which on T's MU chart, like is Bowser an advantageous or a disadvantageous MU on his chart?

It goes from disadvantageous at the top, into advantages at the bottom. Below the Link icon is matchups he is unsure about, because this matchup chart is basically based on his own experiences with these characters.

 

[MarioManTAW]

also I can't tell which end is which on T's MU chart, like is Bowser an advantageous or a disadvantageous MU on his chart?

It goes from disadvantageous at the top, into advantages at the bottom. Below the Link icon is matchups he is unsure about, because this matchup chart is basically based on his own experiences with these characters.

❌→disadvantage
△→slight disadvantage
ー→even
○→slight advantage
💮→advantage
☺

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

 

[Rizen]

クソ正直にネガダイヤ作らせていただきました。マイナーキャラはさすがに微有利以上のやつ多いと思うんだけどあんま大口叩きたくないんで？？ってことにさせてください。
？？＝maybe slight advantage....???? pic.twitter.com/GrzLT5Pyf8

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

So, this is T's new MU Chart. What do you guys think (I can just sense the denial)? For me, I see T is more optimistic about the Mario MU (given his better performances against them recently).

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdVWnZQUwAAqQ7l.jpg

Is the image not showing? T plays Link in a very odd grappler style. I've actually tried to copy this style and it didn't work very well for me and I imagine most people. The reason he gets away with it is partially he takes opponents by surprise but mainly he's so good at spacing footsies. Seriously, T could be a top 10 player if he picked up someone like Marth. The simple explanation is he outplays his opponents. Watch games like T vs Samsora (last few games when samsora figures him out and reverse 3-0s him) or Tsu and you can see how exploitable Link is when he's not out-playing.

I'll talk about the MUs when I have time but now I got to go...

 

[MERPIS]

Oh boy opinion time
Kinda late to the party by like, 2 weeks but I'll still ask.
Meta Knight's up air is one of the best in the game, yay or nay? It just sets up into so bloody much

 

[ARGHETH]

1. Make KO Punch unable to be lost when Mac is hit, similar to Limit.

Jfc no. Have yo ever played against a LM who knows how to use KO punch? With a bit of rage (~80-90%?), it can kill at 10 off of Dtilt against heavier characters. Playing against KO punch is stressful enough without knowing he can't be hit out of his 35% damage move with SA.

KO punch isn't even close to the problem with LM. If you have to buff it, make it an actual threat in the air, because right now it's weaker than Mewtwo's Fair.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Jfc no. Have yo ever played against a LM who knows how to use KO punch? With a bit of rage (~80-90%?), it can kill at 10 off of Dtilt against heavier characters. Playing against KO punch is stressful enough without knowing he can't be hit out of his 35% damage move with SA.

KO punch isn't even close to the problem with LM. If you have to buff it, make it an actual threat in the air, because right now it's weaker than Mewtwo's Fair.

I know it is not a good idea. The point of those suggestions is sort of like other thread's poll system, emphasis on the final choice being "none of the above".

Oh boy opinion time
Kinda late to the party by like, 2 weeks but I'll still ask.
Meta Knight's up air is one of the best in the game, yay or nay? It just sets up into so bloody much

Not as Brawl powerful, but it seems so. There are other up airs now to match his up air's utility though (like Cloud's, who pretty much has the title of best up air in the game).

 

[J0eyboi]

Oh boy opinion time
Kinda late to the party by like, 2 weeks but I'll still ask.
Meta Knight's up air is one of the best in the game, yay or nay? It just sets up into so bloody much

As a combo tool? Sure. For juggling? Its hitbox is bad and only lasts a frame. In neutral? It has a horrible hitbox and 18 frames landing lag. It's not that good.

 

[MERPIS]

because right now it's weaker than Mewtwo's Fair.

It should be, Mewtwo's fair is friggin strong

 

[J0eyboi]

It should be, Mewtwo's fair is friggin strong

Mewtwo's fair doesn't kill Mario from center stage with no DI till 135% without rage. It's strong for a fair, and it's strong offstage, but KO Punch isn't even usable half the time, and guess where Mac should literally never go?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

クソ正直にネガダイヤ作らせていただきました。マイナーキャラはさすがに微有利以上のやつ多いと思うんだけどあんま大口叩きたくないんで？？ってことにさせてください。
？？＝maybe slight advantage....???? pic.twitter.com/GrzLT5Pyf8

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

So, this is T's new MU Chart. What do you guys think (I can just sense the denial)? For me, I see T is more optimistic about the Mario MU (given his better performances against them recently).

T seems really confident in Link's matchups, it's pretty biased in certain areas. Then again matchup charts are subjective/opinion based in general.

 

[J0eyboi]

クソ正直にネガダイヤ作らせていただきました。マイナーキャラはさすがに微有利以上のやつ多いと思うんだけどあんま大口叩きたくないんで？？ってことにさせてください。
？？＝maybe slight advantage....???? pic.twitter.com/GrzLT5Pyf8

— Ｔ (@T_SSBU) May 16, 2018

So, this is T's new MU Chart. What do you guys think (I can just sense the denial)? For me, I see T is more optimistic about the Mario MU (given his better performances against them recently).

Why would Link beat Tink that badly? Or at all? Also that's really optimistic about Link's bad MUs, particularly Rosa, who I'd kinda expect to be much worse than slight disadvantage.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Why would Link beat Tink that badly? Or at all?

It is probably coming from his record against TLink mains.
It is true that Link does a very good job outranging TLink, but TLink easily outspeeds Link and combos him harder pretty hard.
I personally see the matchup being, at best, even for Link.

 

[MERPIS]

T seems really confident in Link's matchups, it's pretty biased in certain areas. Then again matchup charts are subjective/opinion based in general.

Dude says he wins against villager and mewtwo, absolute bull crap

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Not counting the "??" placings since he gave those a maybe T's MU chart does not look optimistic at all he loses 21 MUs according to that thing and only wins 11. Granted it would look better if he filled the rest of the cast in but that's not an optimistic view on the character at all. I would imagine Link being better than that but I do not use Link nor know his matchups well so take it for a grain of salt.

Also K.O Punch in no need should be buffed, as it is now once its active the match comes to a screeching halt unless the Mac's already in a disadvantaged position because it's so strong as it is. Honestly I am not a fan of the mechanic and Mac should just get buffed all around rather than have it.

 

[MERPIS]

Sorry to drag the conversation like this but I just seen some switchfest vidya with AC's meta knight , its looking incredibly strong, actually meta knight in general is looking really strong as of recent. So I ask this, if he keeps this up, could meta knight rise higher in the near future? I mean he's already in a good spot now, but I'm talking like top 13 or 12 here.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sorry to drag the conversation like this but I just seen some switchfest vidya with AC's meta knight , its looking incredibly strong, actually meta knight in general is looking really strong as of recent. So I ask this, if he keeps this up, could meta knight rise higher in the near future? I mean he's already in a good spot now, but I'm talking like top 13 or 12 here.

MK is strong, but there are obstacles like Corrin, Lucina (who I think MK has the best chance of outranking), and Pikachu to get past with. His placement is, for now, accurate, although if this trend continues throughout the season, then we could see some change in position. What we need now is patience.

 

[J0eyboi]

Sorry to drag the conversation like this but I just seen some switchfest vidya with AC's meta knight , its looking incredibly strong, actually meta knight in general is looking really strong as of recent. So I ask this, if he keeps this up, could meta knight rise higher in the near future? I mean he's already in a good spot now, but I'm talking like top 13 or 12 here.

He'd have to outplace 3 of Ryu, Lucina, Pikachu, and Corrin to make top 13, and the only one of those who hasn't been on the rise lately is Lucina, who is kinda carried by Marth and whose placement hardly even matters.

 

[MarioManTAW]

He'd have to outplace 3 of Ryu, Lucina, Pikachu, and Corrin to make top 13, and the only one of those who hasn't been on the rise lately is Lucina, who is kinda carried by Marth and whose placement hardly even matters.

In what way has Ryu been on the rise?

 

[The_Bookworm]

In what way has Ryu been on the rise?

It is mostly on consistency. He commands a rather large high-level playerbase that brings consistent good results to Ryu, although his peaks are not as high as Corrin's or Pikachu's. I won't say that he "rising" per-se, but he is pretty much stable at his tier position.

The fact that punish game is more important in the current metagame than in the past also helps.

 

[Iridium]

Dude says he wins against villager and mewtwo, absolute bull crap

Probably based on how well he does against players: kept, the best Villager in Japan at the moment, has a horrible record vs. T, and for Mewtwo, Abadango is the only Mewtwo I know has beaten him. He has dealt with Matcha and Compact far more easily.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Probably based on how well he does against players: kept, the best Villager in Japan at the moment, has a horrible record vs. T, and for Mewtwo, Abadango is the only Mewtwo I know has beaten him. He has dealt with Matcha and Compact far more easily.

T has beatened Aba a few instances as well, with the earliest instance I remember being Civil War.

 

[Rizen]

Finishing this ('s MUs imo):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdVWnZQUwAAqQ7l.jpg

Is the image not showing? T plays Link in a very odd grappler style. I've actually tried to copy this style and it didn't work very well for me and I imagine most people. The reason he gets away with it is partially he takes opponents by surprise but mainly he's so good at spacing footsies. Seriously, T could be a top 10 player if he picked up someone like Marth. The simple explanation is he outplays his opponents. Watch games like T vs Samsora (last few games when samsora figures him out and reverse 3-0s him) or Tsu and you can see how exploitable Link is when he's not out-playing.

I'll talk about the MUs when I have time but now I got to go...

Dude says he wins against villager and mewtwo, absolute bull crap

I can see Link slightly beating. Vil has a great defensive playstyle but Link can safely get around it with 3 projectiles. If Link spams hard it destroys Lyoid rockets, bombs and boomerang can be lobbed over the tree and Vil's catch special doesn't stop the spam.
This means Vil has to approach Link. He's a lot weaker in this area. F/Bair are still very annoying but Hylian shield can block as Link walks forward or stands for a tilt. Link's grab is better than villager's in starting speed, distance and followups. Vil's grab really hurts him. Link can also kill Vil earlier.
Vil's turnips have great range and he can gimp really well but Link has some defense offstage with boomerang and upB. Bowling ball kills stupidly early but is short range and if Link is spacing properly with his sword and watching for traps off platforms/ledges it's not going to connect without a hard read.
MU rundowns:

No one's going to mention the Mac attack?


I agree Mewtwo and ZSS are about even. has good tool interactions in those MUs.
Vs , Link out-disjoints him and grab and Zair beat his reach. Mewtwo is a monster at zoning with things like Dtilt that can be hard for characters with poor reach to deal with but Link doesn't have to worry about that nearly as much. Mewtwo is extremely vulnerable to Link's Dthrow combos until high %s; he gets Usmashed at 0% and Uaired at 80%.

I went over but a lot of it relies on Link's grab being better than her's. Link may have good shield safety but still gets OoS grabbed and punished for bad spacing in MUs by normal grabs. But her grab is f16. He doesn't have to worry about being rush grabbed like vs Sheik/fox/etc. His projectiles out-zone ZSS' mid-range game and paralyzer, which is one of her strong points.

In both the above cases, Link is generally undertuned and the opponents have top tier options like Mewtwo's kill/throw game and ZSS' combos/ladders so he doesn't win.

Vs , IMO it's -1. Link has a good answer to Diddy's ground banana game, since bombs cancel them, but Diddy is quicker with much less commitment. Diddy can burst in and punish hard enough to more than make up for Link's weight and power advantages. Diddy's neutral is so good he goes even with Bayo :/

_______

The more I play the MU the more I think it being decent for Link is a myth, based on T being great at making good calls. Fox has always been terrible for Link in every game and nothing has changed that. The gap is smaller in SSB4 but it's still one of his worst. I know I said it's -1 earlier but played it Thursday and am revising it to -1.5.

Fox's reflector means Link can't simply play keep away with projectiles, even though reflected projectiles aren't a big concern. So Link is forced to play footsies with Fox and Fox has the strongest burst game of the cast imo. Link has always been weak to small characters because they're harder to wall and Fox is one. It ends up being a guessing game where Fox has much less commitment, an amazing punish game with vortexes, setups like Dair, and he's more than twice as fast as Link. Link's moves all have heavy commitment both in windup and end lag. Fox can patiently play outside Link's melee range and burst in for huge rewards. Killing is not a problem for Fox but Link has to venture within Fox's CQC range to kill and Fox wins that game.

At least now Link has a better recovery and Dthrow combos. Link can win but must make the right calls and outplay Fox hard to do so.

Link vs...

Mario:
Mario destroys Link close range, Utilt gets an early 30% and Link has no way to escape his juggles. Mario has a great burst game and his Usmash discourages FF Nair. Cape is one of the better reflectors vs Link because it is fast and also flips Link around.
Link outcamps Mario and always forces the approach. This is the usual reason Link doesn't get destroyed in neutral by 90% of the cast. Mario's small so Zair isn't great against him but it and grab can't be flipped by cape (tethers) so it has uses. Link wins in disjoint and power.
It's fairly even but Mario has less commitment and a good enough approach game he probably wins +1.

Rosa:
It's another slight loss for Link. While Link has a good answer to Luma walling and gravity pull with Zair and bombs, Rosa has a good answer to his zoning with a low DA, crouch and good burst options. Link traditionally walls tall characters more easily than small ones but Rosa gets past that. When Rosa has the advantage she can abuse Link in ways few characters can with disjointed rings that safely eat bombs and Dair. Rings also gimp Link past his disjointed upB. Link can kill Rosa very early with a read and his Dthrow combos work well vs her if Luma's not in the picture.
It ends up being a very momentum based game where Rosa controls mid range spacing yet has to approach. Link's generally at a disadvantage but very tanky and hits hard. If Rosa does her usual Uair at the ledge trick Link can Ftilt it which covers 2 frames too so both characters do not want to lose stage control. In the end Link needs to outplay a little with reads but Rosa can bread and butter Link to death so she has a slight advantage.

wins slightly. The problem is he out-spams Link. TL can hop over a lot of Link's projectiles and rain down his own. Because this he gets the most out of large stages. Link wins footsies but gets Utilt juggled at low %s to 30-40%ish. TL doesn't have to play footsies and Link has a hard time forcing him into a bad position. Link and TL have basically the same walling with Uair and bombs in advantage when below but TL is more mobile and therefor escapes and juggles better. TL's recovery is about as good as Link's offstage but Link has a bigger sword and sex kick Nair to intercept with. TL's kill power finishes off Link without trouble but Link probably is better at surviving.
It really boils down to TL can play in his comfort zone and Link is forced to be aggressive. IDK how T thinks the MU is the same as Link vs Ganon.

idk. We have a really good ROB who got top 16 at Dreamhack Denver iirc but I never got to play him in SSB4

I wouldn't say Link beats the characters T has as advantages (flower and circle symbols) as hard as he does but generally agree he wins or goes even with them unless otherwise mentioned.

My big disagreement in the even row (-) is , who I talked about earlier. It's a terrible MU. I'd also bump up to slight disadvantage because Ness has less commitment forcing his game and extremely good punishes with Bthrow and Uair.

There are a few MUs I'm more optimistic about than T. I think 's about even or slight disadvantage and 's even. T's grappler style really shows here.
out boxes Link in CQC and has great mobility. doesn't outbox Link and has a harder time approaching and dealing with platform camping. But Bowser survives better than DK, lands easier and has some mean tricks in side and down B that KO early with a read. Link obviously forces both to approach, exploits them in disadvantage and tries to keep a lot of bombs in play to break Ding Dongs. I used to think Link did slightly better but Ding Dongs are stupidly strong and they're good at grappling.
I'd say is even or slight advantage, strike FD and play lame. 's probably even but idk.


Other than those I agree Link loses to the disadvantage row (triangle) but would push a few MUs to solid disadvantage, like .


So, with a handful of exceptions, I generally agree with T's chart but with a bit more pessimism.

 

[J0eyboi]

The fact that punish game is more important in the current metagame than in the past also helps.

Punish game has never been more or less important than it is now. It's been less optimized in the past for some characters, but Ryu is not one of them. Advantage state is more important now than previously, according to some (I don't get why people think this, can anyone explain?), and Ryu does have a fairly good advantage state due to his hitboxes being the size of my house, as well as having focus to cover landings.

 

[Iridium]

T has beatened Aba a few instances as well, with the earliest instance I remember being Civil War.

To be honest, T has dealt with Abadango so much, that I cannot remember their lifetime record. But since Aba goes Bayo against T, I don't know what he thinks of Mewtwo still at this point.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Punish game has never been more or less important than it is now. It's been less optimized in the past for some characters, but Ryu is not one of them. Advantage state is more important now than previously, according to some (I don't get why people think this, can anyone explain?), and Ryu does have a fairly good advantage state due to his hitboxes being the size of my house, as well as having focus to cover landings.

I think people thinks advantage state is more important due to how the public perceives Bayo and easily exaggerates the impact of landing one Bayo combo (like the ZeRo's "but she can just follow your DI and kill you" statement lol). Players like ZeRo optimize advantage state and thinks little about disadvantage state, which is the reason some characters like, for example, Bowser and DK, are so high in ZeRo's tier list.

Edit: It should also be noted that some of the characters with "potential" normally have an alright to good advantage state, so here is where some optimization comes from as well.

 

[EMT~]

Punish game has never been more or less important than it is now. It's been less optimized in the past for some characters, but Ryu is not one of them. Advantage state is more important now than previously, according to some (I don't get why people think this, can anyone explain?), and Ryu does have a fairly good advantage state due to his hitboxes being the size of my house, as well as having focus to cover landings.

I would rationalize it as a consequence of advantage state in general being optimized, which means that a round of being in advantage is far more rewarding than it used to be and that the amount of neutral encounters required to take a stock is proportionately decreased.

Rewind back a few years ago. Back then, characters' advantage states were less optimized - significantly so. For example, at Roy's release, DThrow to UpB was seen as his standard bread-and-butter damage dealing method. A lot of development in the advantage state meta focused on simple bread-and-butter combos, and these combos would lead to 20, maybe 30% damage, each. With less damage done per round in advantage state, that necessitated more rounds in advantage state to take a stock, which meant more won neutral encounters were required and that more time spent in the neutral game as a result. Thus, neutral game was more important than advantage.

Now, characters have had their advantage states optimized significantly. Bread-and-butter combos have become deadlier (e.g., one of Duck Hunt's combos deals ~50% guaranteed and can potentially lead to a ladder kill at 0% on TnC); and bread-and-butter combos in the advantage state have been supplemented by further development in other areas of advantage state, like tools and methods to keep the opponent stuck perpetually in disadvantage and extend your own time in advantage. With these developments, a single round in advantage is far more rewarding than it used to be. And this means that fewer wins in neutral encounters are needed to take a stock. So as a result, advantage becomes more important, and neutral game becomes less important as a result.

That's how I would explain it, anyway.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I would rationalize it as a consequence of advantage state in general being optimized, which means that a round of being in advantage is far more rewarding than it used to be and that the amount of neutral encounters required to take a stock is proportionately decreased.

Rewind back a few years ago. Back then, characters' advantage states were less optimized - significantly so. For example, at Roy's release, DThrow to UpB was seen as his standard bread-and-butter damage dealing method. A lot of development in the advantage state meta focused on simple bread-and-butter combos, and these combos would lead to 20, maybe 30% damage, each. With less damage done per round in advantage state, that necessitated more rounds in advantage state to take a stock, which meant more won neutral encounters were required and that more time spent in the neutral game as a result. Thus, neutral game was more important than advantage.

Now, characters have had their advantage states optimized significantly. Bread-and-butter combos have become deadlier (e.g., one of Duck Hunt's combos deals ~50% guaranteed and can potentially lead to a ladder kill at 0% on TnC); and bread-and-butter combos in the advantage state have been supplemented by further development in other areas of advantage state, like tools and methods to keep the opponent stuck perpetually in disadvantage and extend your own time in advantage. With these developments, a single round in advantage is far more rewarding than it used to be. And this means that fewer wins in neutral encounters are needed to take a stock. So as a result, advantage becomes more important, and neutral game becomes less important as a result.

That's how I would explain it, anyway.

Does this mean we should go back to 3-stock?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Does this mean we should go back to 3-stock?

Some argue that they would want to do that.

But then characters like Sonic exists.....

 

[EMT~]

Does this mean we should go back to 3-stock?

Ehhhhhhhhhh, even though there are fewer rounds of advantage state needed to take a stock, these rounds of advantage are longer simply due to the advantage state optimizations. So, the few neutral wins needed are more spread apart in the game's time frame. Basically, just because advantage state has been optimized, doesn't necessarily mean that games go by more quickly.

Of course, this is speculation on my part. One could rigorously quantify if and/or how these advantage state optimizations have significantly affected game lengths simply by doing an analysis on how long modern games last on average compared to games from the past.