Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Prince Koopa Jr]

That one still sucks. True air combos mean you're not jumping away until Corrin is done with you.

You can't crouch grab, or really anything important. Pin forces you to shield all the time (or predict it and bair), and it's generally not safe to be too close to Corrin or too far. You're only safe with them in disadvantage...

Would you say copying Corrin's dragon fang shot is good in this matchup, or is meh.

 

[Rizen]

^Kirby with DFS? That sounds terrifying.

 

[ARGHETH]

That one still sucks. True air combos mean you're not jumping away until Corrin is done with you.

You can't crouch grab, or really anything important. Pin forces you to shield all the time (or predict it and bair), and it's generally not safe to be too close to Corrin or too far. You're only safe with them in disadvantage...

Wait, Marth's grab can be crouched, but Corrin's can't?

Would you say copying Corrin's dragon fang shot is good in this matchup, or is meh.

Copying DFS sounds really good because it gives Kirby both a projectile and a kill option.

 

[|RK|]

Would you say copying Corrin's dragon fang shot is good in this matchup, or is meh.

I like it a lot. Means Corrin is going to shield more instead of tapdancing all over Kirby.

Plus fthrow > DFS is a kill confirm starting at like 55% near ledge with no DI.

Utilt > DFS is another early kill confirm.

Wait, Marth's grab can be crouched, but Corrin's can't?

Sadly, yep.

 

[TDK]

MVL (7th in Spain, best Sheik and Wario in Spain) and MGK (Australia, not sure how good he is in relation to other AUS Ganons) are both confirmed for Hyrule Saga.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Is Hyrule Saga like some kind of real serious event or just a fun little tourney?

 

[MarioManTAW]

Is Hyrule Saga like some kind of real serious event or just a fun little tourney?

Are you, like, completely unaware of what the 2GG Sagas are all about?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Are you, like, completely unaware of what the 2GG Sagas are all about?

I'm just not fully aware of the tone or atmosphere. For example, I thought Greninja Saga was just a fun little side event.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I'm just not fully aware of the tone or atmosphere. For example, I thought Greninja Saga was just a fun little side event.

Ah, I see. Yes, they are high-level competitive tournaments. Sometimes they include side events, but the focus is always competitive Smash. The theme typically just has to do with certain players being invited, although in some cases, side events also match the theme.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Ah, I see. Yes, they are high-level competitive tournaments. Sometimes they include side events, but the focus is always competitive Smash. The theme typically just has to do with certain players being invited, although in some cases, side events also match the theme.

MKLeo saga was great in my opinion, there were some upsets to be had.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Ah, I see. Yes, they are high-level competitive tournaments. Sometimes they include side events, but the focus is always competitive Smash. The theme typically just has to do with certain players being invited, although in some cases, side events also match the theme.

So fun or serious?

 

[MarioManTAW]

So fun or serious?

Mostly serious, but often with casual side events.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Mostly serious, but often with casual side events.

I'm honestly really hype for Hyrule saga, the player lineup so far looks promising.

 

[Iridium]

I'm honestly really hype for Hyrule saga, the player lineup so far looks promising.

I wonder if we will see another Japanese invasion like at Civil War. T, Sigma, Ri-ma, Rizeasu and Komorikiri are names to mind. I want to see one of them break the curse! (Maybe Komorikiri can't).

 

[The_Bookworm]

I wonder if we will see another Japanese invasion like at Civil War. T, Sigma, Ri-ma, Rizeasu and Komorikiri are names to mind. I want to see one of them break the curse! (Maybe Komorikiri can't).

All of those players (except Rizeasu) are already signed up to go to the event. Considering Toon Link's and Link's position on the tier list, I think a Sheik main is most likely going to break the curse if it indeed happens.

 

[Rizen]

I'm honestly really hype for Hyrule saga, the player lineup so far looks promising.

InB4 Bayo wins it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

InB4 Bayo wins it.

Only one PGR'ed Bayonetta player has entered so far. Granted that it is Salem, but still....

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Only one PGR'ed Bayonetta player has entered so far. Granted that it is Salem, but still....

I honestly think a sheik player has a good chance of taking Hyrule saga.

 

[Iridium]

Karisuma 18 is tonight!
Featuring:
HIKARU
Sigma
T (Also, happy birthday by the way.)
Taranito
DIO
Yuzu
Compact
Agehasama
Fuwa
Yakara
kept
Nojinko
Gobu
OCEAN
Tsu~
Ankoro
Kuma
Hatsuyukiand many more!

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XvqL5hG2oBbXH4WHL_7bUY_EdOOcihiivozwgnW9X-o/htmlview
Bracket: https://challonge.com/karisuma18_A
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Skeeter Mania]

T (Also happy birthday by the way.)

お誕生日おめでとうございます、Tさん！

 

[Lord Dio]

(Maybe Komorikiri can't)

he doesn't play a zelda character
but considering salem's the only pgr'ed bayo, he has high chances of scoring well, and he's the most likely of those coming from japan to win......

 

[Iridium]

he doesn't play a zelda character
but considering salem's the only pgr'ed bayo, he has high chances of scoring well, and he's the most likely of those coming from japan to win......

Oh, I know that, I just wanted to mention him as a Japanese player.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Continuing my 2017 tournament results, just got through the A tiers, so all results for S and A tiers:

Spoiler

 

[The_Bookworm]

Continuing my 2017 tournament results, just got through the A tiers, so all results for S and A tiers:

OMG that is an absurdly long post.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Continuing my 2017 tournament results, just got through the A tiers, so all results for S and A tiers:

Spoiler

So when based on peaks, what would be the tier list?

 

[The_Bookworm]

So when based on peaks, what would be the tier list?

Marth and Luigi being much higher. Many other things will happen, but that is something that comes to mind lol.

 

[MarioManTAW]

OMG that is an absurdly long post.

Hence the spoiler. Should I format differently?

 

[TDK]

So when based on peaks, what would be the tier list?

I'm not MarioMan, but he gave me the go-ahead to post these:

Spoiler: S tiers

Spoiler: S and A tiers

And before anyone asks, the ordering in tiers is alphabetical.

Could be talk about Mr. Game and Watch? He's done fairly well, but I feel like we never mention him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'm not MarioMan, but he gave me the go-ahead to post these:

Spoiler: S tiers

Spoiler: S and A tiers

And before anyone asks, the ordering in tiers is alphabetical.

Could be talk about Mr. Game and Watch? He's done fairly well, but I feel like we never mention him.

Game & Watch normally gets one or two high placements for the year, then disappears to get only commendable results in only a local (or in the case for Mexico: regional) level. Can you make a version of the list on S Tier results factoring consistency as well (like appearing at that position numerious times)? It is not the same as Das Koopa's charts because it will only be S Tiers.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I'm not MarioMan, but he gave me the go-ahead to post these:

Spoiler: S tiers

Spoiler: S and A tiers

And before anyone asks, the ordering in tiers is alphabetical.

Could be talk about Mr. Game and Watch? He's done fairly well, but I feel like we never mention him.

Regi, a Mexican Mr. Game & Watch player, placed 13th at Nairo Saga (S Tier). After that, no Game & Watch placed anything 13th or higher on a major until Maister's 13th place at GENESIS 5.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Regi, a Mexican Mr. Game & Watch player, placed 13th at Nairo Saga (S Tier). After that, no Game & Watch placed anything 13th or higher on a major until Maister's 13th place at GENESIS 5.

Maister is a marvel among game and watch players, he's one of those underrated players though.

 

[Illusion.]

I’m of the belief that is one of the most slept on characters in the game.

Among relevant characters, he has some troublesome MUs with at least, but does well against . While his best players don’t travel often, they typically perform decently. He has a kill confirm off of a grab, high damage output, a safe and powerful smash attack, and a great recovery that is difficult for most of the cast to edgeguard. On the flipside, he is very light making him susceptible to being “janked,” and has difficulty dealing with camping.

I’m super confused as to why people think he’s low tier/sucks, I just don’t see it when I look at what he’s got. I think he’s capable of being high-mid.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I’m of the belief that is one of the most slept on characters in the game.

Among relevant characters, he has some troublesome MUs with at least, but does well against . While his best players don’t travel often, they typically perform decently. He has a kill confirm off of a grab, high damage output, a safe and powerful smash attack, and a great recovery that is difficult for most of the cast to edgeguard. On the flipside, he is very light making him susceptible to being “janked,” and has difficulty dealing with camping.

I’m super confused as to why people think he’s low tier/sucks, I just don’t see it when I look at what he’s got. I think he’s capable of being high-mid.

His kill confirm is inconsistent and hard to land. His KO power itself is inconsistant, which his light weight makes him easy to KO (further exacerbated by rage). His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield.

His players on a national scale only have one to two good placings in the entire year, while the only region (that I know) with good regional results with him is Mexico. He is not low tier (hasn't been since the third official tier list), but he a mediocre character.

Edit: Also, something I have been wondering. You said that Greninja had a good splash of results when the new official tier list's voting ended. I couldn't find what you were talking about. Can you give some examples?

 

[WiFi]

It's hard to take you seriously along with others that complain about Bayonetta to the same capacity, and the main reason is that I don't get the sense that you dug neck deep into frame data and hitbox data, jumped in the lab and exhausted every possible strategy and tactic that your character can use against Bayonetta, but that you ran into a handful of middling no-name flowchart Bayonettas and called it quits. Especially when you make statements like "SDI is too hard" and "Bayonetta is impossible to frame trap". (by the way, you should be using SDI *all* of the time, not just vs Bayo. Lucario aura sphere, meta knight u airs, Marth dancing blade, all rapid jabs, Ryu utilts, Lucas nair, etc.)

That's really the problem this community at large has in general. Whenever a wide variety of players like Elegant, Nairo, Cosmos, Fatality etc defeat Bayos back to back, along with Leo who has yet to drop a set to top Bayos ever since he started using Marth against them, the response is never:

"Wow they really took it to those Bayonettas, and with a variety of different characters and playstyles no less! Let's analyze their gameplay and delve into the tactics they employ against her, so that we ourselves can emulate them and enjoy similar success in the future!"

but always, invariably, its this:

"bayonetta is an unbeatable character, no counterplay exists, it is impossible to beat her, shes boring, these are objective facts"

Not the best look for a community that desires to be competitive, much less a discussion board named "Competitive Discussion". But whatever, I'm dropping this for now (at least until the next major comes around the corner and the complaining and "i told you so's" can begin anew)


Yeah I can see where you're coming from. Falcon is an interesting character overall in that he can beat anyone but also lose to anyone in the same capacity. He also posted a new Falcon matchup chart just days ago, with Pikachu and Game&Watch down as his worst matchups. Fatality even has Jigglypuff as a 50:50 matchup, on par with the likes of Rosalina and Diddy in terms of difficulty. And meanwhile Kirby exerts the same threat level as characters like Cloud and Bayonetta, in the 45:55 category. It's pretty inspiring to see the level of dedication a player can have toward a perceived lesser character and bring them into the spotlight singlehandedly, like what Elegant did with Luigi.

SDI is actually nearly impossible for me, as I've got nerve damage in my hand. That's why I play Fox and Cloud over the top tiers, as they don't cause me too much pain in the long run. Well, to be on task, I think that Game and Watch is really slept on. Also, how does GnW beat C. Falcon?

Edit: As for Hyrule Saga, The curse may continue. As for Toon Link doubters, Toon Link is still a superior character than Link. Toon Link is a zoner with speed, which makes him a very scary character. The only reason why Toon Link isn't high tier is because of two things: 1. Hyuga is banned from PGR tournaments. And for good reason too. 2. Many Japanese events have lesser weight on the PGR. In my mind, Toon Link is still a top 20 character and the best zoner in the game, even above Olimar (Albeit slightly).

 

[JustCallMeJon]

His kill confirm is inconsistent and hard to land. His KO power itself is inconsistant, which his light weight makes him easy to KO (further exacerbated by rage). His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield.

His players on a national scale only have one to two good placings in the entire year, while the only region (that I know) with good regional results with him is Mexico. He is not low tier (hasn't been since the third official tier list), but he a mediocre character.

Edit: Also, something I have been wondering. You said that Greninja had a good splash of results when the new official tier list's voting ended. I couldn't find what you were talking about. Can you give some examples?

I am going to say it again...
Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30.

I probably predict that the latest tier list was intended to be released pre-EVO like they did previously but it probably had been delay due to the oversaturation of tournaments in 2017.

Most of these results are post EVO btw.

 

[WiFi]

All of those players (except Rizeasu) are already signed up to go to the event. Considering Toon Link's and Link's position on the tier list, I think a Sheik main is most likely going to break the curse if it indeed happens.

0



I am going to say it again...
Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30.

I probably think that the latest tier list was intended to be pre-EVO like they did previously but it had been delay due to so many tournaments.

Elexiao won because Mr. R wasn't home to body everybody.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Elexiao won because Mr. R wasn't home to body everybody.

Literally my favorite comment all day LOL.

I am going to say it again...
Stroder's 13th place at 2GGC West Side Saga
Salem won Tipped Off 12 with only Greninja
iStudying placing 5th at Syndicate 2017
Elexiao winning Elysium, a stacked European tournament
Lea's 9th and 5th placing at Umebura 28 and 30.

I probably predict that the latest tier list was intended to be released pre-EVO like they did previously but it probably had been delay due to the oversaturation of tournaments in 2017.

Most of these results are post EVO btw.

It isn't confirmed that voting ended at EVO. There is some oddities with this conclusion, as Ranai participated in that tournament (and placed high) but Villager still dropped to 25th.

 

[Rizen]

is sort of like a counterpart to Link. I picked him up in brawl to cover Link and Wolf's terrible MUs (DDD). I miss Wolf . G&W shouldn't be a tier below Link. He fits well into D tier; not as good as Bowser and Ness but better than Palutena. G&W got hurt by the DLC power creep when swordies like Cloud and Corrin were released but still has decent options vs several high and top tiers due to his invulnerable upB+great recovery/intercepting and bait and punish style. IMO his usmash is the best in the game, frame 4 upper body invulnerability lets him tank an Fsmash unscathed and "counter" with a very safe smash. Great DA for sheer annoyingness too. But he's definitely undertuned, extremely light and can struggle to kill. He needs more canon and less glass.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

SDI is actually nearly impossible for me, as I've got nerve damage in my hand. That's why I play Fox and Cloud over the top tiers, as they don't cause me too much pain in the long run. Well, to be on task, I think that Game and Watch is really slept on. Also, how does GnW beat C. Falcon?

Edit: As for Hyrule Saga, The curse may continue. As for Toon Link doubters, Toon Link is still a superior character than Link. Toon Link is a zoner with speed, which makes him a very scary character. The only reason why Toon Link isn't high tier is because of two things: 1. Hyuga is banned from PGR tournaments. And for good reason too. 2. Many Japanese events have lesser weight on the PGR. In my mind, Toon Link is still a top 20 character and the best zoner in the game, even above Olimar (Albeit slightly).

I agree, toon link is a very capable character, possessing better mobility than Link and having superb setups off of bombs and his zoning ability is great. It'll be interesting to see how well the Tink mains perform at Hyrule saga.

 

[Iridium]

I agree, toon link is a very capable character, possessing better mobility than Link and having superb setups off of bombs and his zoning ability is great. It'll be interesting to see how well the Tink mains perform at Hyrule saga.

I still think Link has certain areas he is better in, mostly range and general kill power. I look forward to seeing both succeed at Hyrule Saga, as I want to see a top 8 appearance from at least one main of each.