Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

This looked pretty damning when I first saw the chart. This kinda makes Falcon look something like high-mid at best.

BTW, Minordeth , what about Pit? Where would he be in terms of your solo viability list?

Being only slightly disadvantaged to even vs the best characters in the game is a bad thing?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Being only slightly disadvantaged to even vs the best characters in the game is a bad thing?

It's just the wide amount of volatility in these MUs.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Can I ask who (s)he is?

Zeke is a Dedede main from Japan. He has taken sets off of notable players in his country.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Zeke is a Dedede main from Japan. He has taken sets off of notable players in his country.

Is it pronounced like ZEEK or Zeh-keh (likely written as ゼケ)?

Being only slightly disadvantaged to even vs the best characters in the game is a bad thing?

Not sure if this was posted before, but here's something else to offer!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Iridium]

Is it pronounced like ZEEK or Zeh-keh (likely written as ゼケ)?



Not sure if this was posted before, but here's something else to offer!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

As for the King Dedede main, it is seen as ざき, or Zaki according to Japanese translations. Check it at the official site for the JPR. He's ranked #53.

As for Sinji, I wonder what makes Link a good matchup, but not Toon Link. Even through experience, I see the matchup as at least even or slightly in Link's favor, but I might be thinking of T's record on Pac-Man too much.

 

[Frihetsanka]

This looked pretty damning when I first saw the chart. This kinda makes Falcon look something like high-mid at best.

I think Falcon's probably high-mid tier, yes. Pikachu and Mr. Game & Watch are probably not that bad though.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Re: Cloud & Japan

I've never been a Cloud optimist, or believed that he was in any way, shape, or form, the uncontested 2nd best character in the game. However, the movement that has been going on that supposes the volatile & overrated nature of Cloud as a solo main is most prominent from people who have shown to not know sh*t or even try to care about Japan's large pool of highly skilled Cloud mains: Komorikiri, Masashi, Mao, Mangalitza, Mattun, Selcia, Rain & maybe even more i haven't mentioned have all been able to win some of the stacked Sumabato & Umebura monthly events, have all gotten a fair amount of victories and have shown their ability to defend themselves against even the best players ( See: MKLeo vs Masashi at Umebura Japan Major, with the 2 games being very close ). They've all shown a good understanding of Cloud's neutral game, and have shown to act a bit less reckless than most, with more emphasis on just how good Cloud is at keeping away foes with his huge & surprisingly fast aerials, while nailing every basics of Cloud's advantage & little tricks to punish overextensions, which Cloud is really good at. Their fits should most definitely not be underrated given that this is the same country that has shown us that most of their players could upset Clouds in matchups we would have never expected them to lose: How KEN kind of ran through every US Cloud, How Earth had upsetted Tweek, How You3 had been able to hold his own so well against MKLeo, and so on. Their success in such a rough country for Cloud given all the experience they've been giving out is a testament to their skills, and they are some of the most underrated players out there.

Also, what the f*ck, how do you not know Zaki? He's the best Dedede main in the world as we speak and just got 9th/256 at the latest Sumabato which is one of the highest peaks the character has seen in a while, along with some honestly solid wins.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Also, what the ****, how do you not know Zaki? He's the best Dedede main in the world as we speak and just got 9th/256 at the latest Sumabato which is one of the highest peaks the character has seen in a while, along with some honestly solid wins.

Whoa, a bit harsh, man.

Also, I do know who Zaki is, but it never occurred to me that who Prince Koopa Jr was referring to as "Zeke" and Zaki were the same player.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Is it pronounced like ZEEK or Zeh-keh (likely written as ゼケ)?



Not sure if this was posted before, but here's something else to offer!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That is a lot of advantageous matchups for a low tier character. I think he may have ESAM-itus with this matchup chart.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That is a lot of advantageous matchups for a low tier character. I think he may have ESAM-itus with this matchup chart.

This raises a probably unanswerable question. How exactly do you determine the validity of MU charts?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

This raises a probably unanswerable question. How exactly do you determine the validity of MU charts?

Most players compile their matchup charts based off of how they feel a matchup plays. Invariably, there may be a bit subjectivity in matchup charts due to how they are generally made off a person's opinion.

 

[Minordeth]

Okaaaay, so now that I have a second:

There is a broad section of characters that can win a major.
This is due to the fact that there are almost 60 characters in the game, most background mechanics are esoteric (like rage), and pools - and occasionally brackets - are best of 3 and two stocks, all of which keeps volatility high.

Now, the more your character can mitigate that volatility, the better their chances of getting the W.

Better characters have better tools which allow for better decision making and a more consistent mentality.

You have to make it all the way through the tournament, right? If you are playing a low tier character, you are working harder to win. You work harder to win, you spend more energy, and it will impact your mentality and decision making the deeper you go.

This is to say nothing of the fact that it may be necessary for you to dodge certain match-ups that necessitate your opponent to repeatedly make bad decisions. Or you need to rely on the possibility that you are better than your opponent to the point that it makes the MU doable.

But, that's essentially relying on luck.

This whole thing has to do with the possibility of a character winning at least 1 major.
This has nothing to do with consistency. If I was wagering on characters who could win multiple majors, across years, this would be a short list.

So, with that said, what characters allow you to reduce game-to-game volatility and get the W more easily?

Note: having half a dozen or more losing MUs is fine, it just depends on how much your busted tools can swing the match with a few good plays.

These characters may only need to rely on bracket luck once to get a W.


These characters may need to rely on bracket luck two or three times in order to clutch a W.


These characters have high volatility, with either some mix of busted tools and bad MUs, or they are rage monsters. They could conceivably clutch a major, but would need the bracket, and several games to go their way several times.


Everyone else probably ain't winning a major.

Some questions I can see coming:

1. Link, still?
Yeah. Extremely favorable rage scaling, coupled with fear, means that a given player could swing his main disadvantaged MUs. None of the top tiers, outside of Cloud, and occasionally Sonic, can deal with getting hit by a randy rage Fair/Ftilt. He's gotta dodge Sheik, though. Fortunately, there aren't too many top level Sheiks.

2. Isn't this basically a tier list?
No. You don't have to be a top tier to win a major or, more importantly, get sponsored and make money. Ain't that many characters actually won a major, anyway.

3. Why is Marth so high?
Because Marth is controlled volatility, and he doesn't suffer from Marthritis as badly as he did in Melee.

5. What about Lucina?
Stop it.

6. Why is Corrin so high?
Because Corrin is dumb. More specifically, she has a collection of dumb tools that let her swing any game. As soon as Cosmos figures out how to deal with Fatality, he can stop these premature ends to his top 8 runs.

7. Greninja?
Not my fault his mains don't travel.

8. What about Pit?
Pit doesn't have enough broken stuff to let his players coast into Top 32/top 16. Pit sucks, basically.

9. DK, tho?
As long as HIKARU exists, there is always that threat, yes.

10. Why not just pick Bayo?
I'm working on that post, I swear to god.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I am going to list the notable players so far attending Sheik Invasi- I mean Hyrule Saga. I am not going to note all the notable TLOZ players. I don't want to steal TDK's thunder.

PGR'ed Players
Salem
MKLeo
Dabuz
Larry Lurr
VoiD
komorikiri
Cosmos
Darkshad
Charliedaking
falln
K9sbruce
AC


Notable, Not PGR'ed Players
Eon
Stroder
Sigma
T
Karna
Ri-ma
Zan
Slither2Hunter
Razo
Aarvark
Meteor
Captain L
Zephyr
Legit
DKHo
Biddy
Dynamo
ven
Taternator
SDX
Mekos
Soulimar
adom
Izaw
pu55yking
TLTC
Pon
Purple Guy


That many notable players with 516 attendees. This is going to be THE event of the season.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

9. DK, tho?
As long as HIKARU exists, there is always that threat, yes.

So that basically makes this list hard to take seriously and very conditional?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Okaaaay, so now that I have a second:

There is a broad section of characters that can win a major.
This is due to the fact that there are almost 60 characters in the game, most background mechanics are esoteric (like rage), and pools - and occasionally brackets - are best of 3 and two stocks, all of which keeps volatility high.

Now, the more your character can mitigate that volatility, the better their chances of getting the W.

Better characters have better tools which allow for better decision making and a more consistent mentality.

You have to make it all the way through the tournament, right? If you are playing a low tier character, you are working harder to win. You work harder to win, you spend more energy, and it will impact your mentality and decision making the deeper you go.

This is to say nothing of the fact that it may be necessary for you to dodge certain match-ups that necessitate your opponent to repeatedly make bad decisions. Or you need to rely on the possibility that you are better than your opponent to the point that it makes the MU doable.

But, that's essentially relying on luck.

This whole thing has to do with the possibility of a character winning at least 1 major.
This has nothing to do with consistency. If I was wagering on characters who could win multiple majors, across years, this would be a short list.

So, with that said, what characters allow you to reduce game-to-game volatility and get the W more easily?

Note: having half a dozen or more losing MUs is fine, it just depends on how much your busted tools can swing the match with a few good plays.

These characters may only need to rely on bracket luck once to get a W.


These characters may need to rely on bracket luck two or three times in order to clutch a W.


These characters have high volatility, with either some mix of busted tools and bad MUs, or they are rage monsters. They could conceivably clutch a major, but would need the bracket, and several games to go their way several times.


Everyone else probably ain't winning a major.

Some questions I can see coming:

1. Link, still?
Yeah. Extremely favorable rage scaling, coupled with fear, means that a given player could swing his main disadvantaged MUs. None of the top tiers, outside of Cloud, and occasionally Sonic, can deal with getting hit by a randy rage Fair/Ftilt. He's gotta dodge Sheik, though. Fortunately, there aren't too many top level Sheiks.

2. Isn't this basically a tier list?
No. You don't have to be a top tier to win a major or, more importantly, get sponsored and make money. Ain't that many characters actually won a major, anyway.

3. Why is Marth so high?
Because Marth is controlled volatility, and he doesn't suffer from Marthritis as badly as he did in Melee.

5. What about Lucina?
Stop it.

6. Why is Corrin so high?
Because Corrin is dumb. More specifically, she has a collection of dumb tools that let her swing any game. As soon as Cosmos figures out how to deal with Fatality, he can stop these premature ends to his top 8 runs.

7. Greninja?
Not my fault his mains don't travel.

8. What about Pit?
Pit doesn't have enough broken stuff to let his players coast into Top 32/top 16. Pit sucks, basically.

9. DK, tho?
As long as HIKARU exists, there is always that threat, yes.

10. Why not just pick Bayo?
I'm working on that post, I swear to god.

Well said, you give solid reasoning behind why you think these characters could win a major, and you are correct.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Kameme got 2nd place in EVO 2016 with mostly Mega Man. Villager has been close in the past too (although that was before relevant DLC). Are you talking about character potential or realistic potential, anyway? I doubt we'll see many Diddy's winning majors in the near future (due to ZeRo's retirement), although it is very clear that Diddy Kong, the character, is very capable of winning majors. If you're talking character potential, then I'd say Bowser would be roughly as likely to win a major as Donkey Kong. Realistically, the current Donkey Kong mains are doing better than the current Bowser mains, KONGA or Hikaru would likely win a major before any Bowser main (although I'd be thrilled to see some Bowser main prove me wrong and win a major).

I'm glad to see that the whole "Corrin is mid tier" thing has died down. I still think she could move up a bit on the tier list (probably above Ryu and Marth, potentially Mario as well, Mario is kind of tricky to rank though). She's quite good, but she does lose 4-5 MUs (Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, Cloud, and potentially Captain Falcon, given Fatality's track record vs Corrins), and she doesn't clearly win against anyone in top 15 (potentially Mario, Rosalina, and Pikachu, but none of them are a clear advantage, they could just be even MUs). I think Cosmos has a lot of potential as a player and once he works on his consistency, he's going to be a beast. He has the potential to be a top 10 player by the end of the season.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yeah. Extremely favorable rage scaling, coupled with fear, means that a given player could swing his main disadvantaged MUs. None of the top tiers, outside of Cloud, and occasionally Sonic, can deal with getting hit by a randy rage Fair/Ftilt. He's gotta dodge Sheik, though. Fortunately, there aren't too many top level Sheiks.

Weren't you also the same person who argued DK isn't Top 20 because his play style mostly only works against those who let him get things started? Why doesn't the same apply to Link?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Kameme got 2nd place in EVO 2016 with mostly Mega Man. Villager has been close in the past too (although that was before relevant DLC). Are you talking about character potential or realistic potential, anyway? I doubt we'll see many Diddy's winning majors in the near future (due to ZeRo's retirement), although it is very clear that Diddy Kong, the character, is very capable of winning majors. If you're talking character potential, then I'd say Bowser would be roughly as likely to win a major as Donkey Kong. Realistically, the current Donkey Kong mains are doing better than the current Bowser mains, KONGA or Hikaru would likely win a major before any Bowser main (although I'd be thrilled to see some Bowser main prove me wrong and win a major).

I'm glad to see that the whole "Corrin is mid tier" thing has died down. I still think she could move up a bit on the tier list (probably above Ryu and Marth, potentially Mario as well, Mario is kind of tricky to rank though). She's quite good, but she does lose 4-5 MUs (Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, Cloud, and potentially Captain Falcon, given Fatality's track record vs Corrins), and she doesn't clearly win against anyone in top 15 (potentially Mario, Rosalina, and Pikachu, but none of them are a clear advantage, they could just be even MUs). I think Cosmos has a lot of potential as a player and once he works on his consistency, he's going to be a beast. He has the potential to be a top 10 player by the end of the season.

Mega Man's weaknesses are more figured out now, but he still gets some good results (such as Kameme at EVO Japan). I think MM could be ranked a little higher. Bowser generally has weaker results than DK, especially his solo results. The only player actually bringing up results worthy of Bowser's tier placement is Nairo, who hasn't used Bowser in tournaments in a long time now. It would be interesting to see a random Bowser player getting equally commending solo results as DK players.

Corrin being "mid tier" has kinda died down a long time ago.

Weren't you also the same person who argued DK isn't Top 20 because his play style mostly only works against those who let him get things started? Why doesn't the same apply to Link?

Literally the first time outside of ZeRo I heard "DK" and "top 20" in the same sentence.

 

[Rizen]

@vs MU: IMO, and most Link players agree, it's the other way where Link has a slight advantage vs Pac Man.

Pac Man can control the stage in neutral with fire hydrant but it doesn't matter much because Link out-spams him. If Pac throws hydrant down Link's Uair sends it back, from the side Fair and Ftilt work. Link does have a little trouble launching hydrants due to poor mobility, no super strong projectiles and Fsmash being 2 hits with the 1st only dealing 7% iirc. Pac can charge up a key or paralyzing bell(?) without much trouble due to superior mobility but Link gets even better spam advantage if Pac's being stingy with fruit. If Pac catches a bomb he's the one who's in trouble but if Link catches fruit he can hold it and spam arrows, boomerang and Zair while playing keep away.

Link's grab and grab game beat Pac's hard and Link generally has better reach but has to watchout for ghosts and Bair. Link's heavier and stronger. Offstage Link's UpB walls Pac pretty well but gimps are always possible by smart Pac players. As mentioned earlier Link out-camps but loses stage control. Shield and OoS are strong is this MU due to Pac not really having anything to threaten it and poor range on several moves. Link's sword zones Pac well.

Pac's advantages are mobility, stage control and the ability to KO suddenly and from a distance with bell or key. One of Link's problems with any MU is he sucks at chasing the opponent down to seal stocks; all the great setups are defensive and Link ends up fishing with Utilts, grab and Fair. So Pac can push an advantage. Pac wins CQC but doesn't get too much out of it. SideB has armor so Pac can recover fine but also has to be careful how he does it. Trampoline is a good reset but since Link can spam doesn't put Pac in an advantage.

Stages:
As Link I'd ban FD (fire hydrants are OP there) and CP BF or Lylat, cuts down the mobility factor.

_____________________________________________

@ Link winning majors: there's a difference between T winning and Link winning, just like with Gluttony's Wario. T is incredible at choosing the right options and footsies. He makes Link look better than he is. Look at overall results; Link's are bottom mid tier level, usually under Samus, Shulk and even Ike. Link has major flaws and really struggles in CQC. He only beats Ganon +1 because Ganon actually wins CQC with his fast grab, same speed jab and underrated burst options. Ganon out-angles Link and Uair is freaking amazing. Link of course walls him hard.

 

[ARGHETH]

Weren't you also the same person who argued DK isn't Top 20 because his play style mostly only works against those who let him get things started? Why doesn't the same apply to Link?

The whole point of the post was that it isn't a tier list...

 

[Nu~]

Okaaaay, so now that I have a second:

There is a broad section of characters that can win a major.
This is due to the fact that there are almost 60 characters in the game, most background mechanics are esoteric (like rage), and pools - and occasionally brackets - are best of 3 and two stocks, all of which keeps volatility high.

Now, the more your character can mitigate that volatility, the better their chances of getting the W.

Better characters have better tools which allow for better decision making and a more consistent mentality.

You have to make it all the way through the tournament, right? If you are playing a low tier character, you are working harder to win. You work harder to win, you spend more energy, and it will impact your mentality and decision making the deeper you go.

This is to say nothing of the fact that it may be necessary for you to dodge certain match-ups that necessitate your opponent to repeatedly make bad decisions. Or you need to rely on the possibility that you are better than your opponent to the point that it makes the MU doable.

But, that's essentially relying on luck.

This whole thing has to do with the possibility of a character winning at least 1 major.
This has nothing to do with consistency. If I was wagering on characters who could win multiple majors, across years, this would be a short list.

So, with that said, what characters allow you to reduce game-to-game volatility and get the W more easily?

Note: having half a dozen or more losing MUs is fine, it just depends on how much your busted tools can swing the match with a few good plays.

These characters may only need to rely on bracket luck once to get a W.


These characters may need to rely on bracket luck two or three times in order to clutch a W.


These characters have high volatility, with either some mix of busted tools and bad MUs, or they are rage monsters. They could conceivably clutch a major, but would need the bracket, and several games to go their way several times.


Everyone else probably ain't winning a major.

Some questions I can see coming:

1. Link, still?
Yeah. Extremely favorable rage scaling, coupled with fear, means that a given player could swing his main disadvantaged MUs. None of the top tiers, outside of Cloud, and occasionally Sonic, can deal with getting hit by a randy rage Fair/Ftilt. He's gotta dodge Sheik, though. Fortunately, there aren't too many top level Sheiks.

2. Isn't this basically a tier list?
No. You don't have to be a top tier to win a major or, more importantly, get sponsored and make money. Ain't that many characters actually won a major, anyway.

3. Why is Marth so high?
Because Marth is controlled volatility, and he doesn't suffer from Marthritis as badly as he did in Melee.

5. What about Lucina?
Stop it.

6. Why is Corrin so high?
Because Corrin is dumb. More specifically, she has a collection of dumb tools that let her swing any game. As soon as Cosmos figures out how to deal with Fatality, he can stop these premature ends to his top 8 runs.

7. Greninja?
Not my fault his mains don't travel.

8. What about Pit?
Pit doesn't have enough broken stuff to let his players coast into Top 32/top 16. Pit sucks, basically.

9. DK, tho?
As long as HIKARU exists, there is always that threat, yes.

10. Why not just pick Bayo?
I'm working on that post, I swear to god.

I’m surprised that meta knight didn’t make it

Why not?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I’m surprised that meta knight didn’t make it

Why not?

Some players think MK is merely a "secondary" character, when it is proven time and time again that it isn't true.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I’m surprised that meta knight didn’t make it

Why not?

That's a good question. MkLeo's meta knight is considered the best, and with his caliber of skill, I believe MkLeo could win a major with meta knight if he put his mind to it. He did take 2gg championship using predominantly meta knight.

 

[Minordeth]

So that basically makes this list hard to take seriously and very conditional?

You can't take a whole list seriously because I described a very conditional section as... very conditional? Okay, fam.

Kameme got 2nd place in EVO 2016 with mostly Mega Man. Villager has been close in the past too (although that was before relevant DLC). Are you talking about character potential or realistic potential, anyway? I doubt we'll see many Diddy's winning majors in the near future (due to ZeRo's retirement), although it is very clear that Diddy Kong, the character, is very capable of winning majors. If you're talking character potential, then I'd say Bowser would be roughly as likely to win a major as Donkey Kong. Realistically, the current Donkey Kong mains are doing better than the current Bowser mains, KONGA or Hikaru would likely win a major before any Bowser main (although I'd be thrilled to see some Bowser main prove me wrong and win a major).

I'm glad to see that the whole "Corrin is mid tier" thing has died down. I still think she could move up a bit on the tier list (probably above Ryu and Marth, potentially Mario as well, Mario is kind of tricky to rank though). She's quite good, but she does lose 4-5 MUs (Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, Cloud, and potentially Captain Falcon, given Fatality's track record vs Corrins), and she doesn't clearly win against anyone in top 15 (potentially Mario, Rosalina, and Pikachu, but none of them are a clear advantage, they could just be even MUs). I think Cosmos has a lot of potential as a player and once he works on his consistency, he's going to be a beast. He has the potential to be a top 10 player by the end of the season.

I'm taking about "potential to win once." Villy and Mega gotta rely harder on bracket luck than the already heavily reliant characters. DLC drags Villy, and Mega has a range of MUs that aren't super fun, which are also relatively common, and he still gets slammed by some DLC, too. He can get you a sponsor, maybe, but I'd have to see a bracket where he could get that major W.

You could throw Bowser in there with DK. Both have enough rage feeding, centralizing jank that lets them bully their way through matches. Just takes some pretty hefty conditions to get a major win.

Corrin can win a major and get you sponsored. Don't know where she is on a tier list.

Weren't you also the same person who argued DK isn't Top 20 because his play style mostly only works against those who let him get things started?

Idk. Quote me? Also, and more importantly, as I said before, this isn't a tier list.

Why doesn't the same apply to Link?

It does, but to a lesser degree. Link can force approaches, which makes his life quite a bit more simple than DK's.

@link winning majors: there's a difference between T winning and Link winning, just like with Gluttony's Wario. T is incredible at choosing the right options and footsies. He makes Link look better than he is. Look at overall results; Link's are bottom mid tier level, usually under Samus, Shulk and even Ike. Link has major flaws and really struggles in CQC. He only beats Ganon +1 because Ganon actually wins CQC with his fast grab, same speed jab and underrated burst options. Ganon out-angles Link and Uair is freaking amazing. Link of course walls him hard.

I'm aware. For my criteria for winning a major, results and tiers don't matter as much. I care about whether or not your character has powerful enough tools that allow for you to clutch your way to a win, with bracket luck, and superior play. For feasibility sake, I'm assuming you are a top player, so getting through pools is a given. Getting through bracket is where it gets interesting. Look how many opponents you actually have to beat. We are looking at a volatile game with varying odds through bracket.

It's why we all know that placings don't necessarily always correlate with skill.

Basically, given that you are a top player, and make it through pools and early bracket, is your character scary enough to beat four to six scary or scarier characters in a row?

In Link's case, I can feasibly imagine a bracket run where T makes it to grands and clutches that W.

 

[Iridium]

I am going to list the notable players so far attending Sheik Invasi- I mean Hyrule Saga. I am not going to note all the notable TLOZ players. I don't want to steal TDK's thunder.

PGR'ed Players
Salem
MKLeo
Dabuz
Larry Lurr
VoiD
komorikiri
Cosmos
Darkshad
Charliedaking
falln
K9sbruce
AC


Notable, Not PGR'ed Players
Eon
Stroder
Sigma
T
Karna
Ri-ma
Zan
Slither2Hunter
Razo
Aarvark
Meteor
Captain L
Zephyr
Legit
DKHo
Biddy
Dynamo
ven
Taternator
SDX
Mekos
Soulimar
adom
Izaw
pu55yking
TLTC
Pon
Purple Guy


That many notable players with 516 attendees. This is going to be THE event of the season.

Definitely excited for this tourney. I am actually excited for Doubles, as this is the first time I have seen T and Sigma team. While I know this is an unlikely possibility, I would hope for T and Sigma to face off in Grand Finals for Singles, but who knows?

It would also be unlikely for an all Japanese Top 8, but I can see T, Sigma, Ri-ma, Komorikiri and Rizeasu all doing it, if not at once.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He can get you a sponsor

The ability to get sponsorships is dependent on recognition and social media presence more than character choice.

 

[Minordeth]

I’m surprised that meta knight didn’t make it

Why not?

Some players think MK is merely a "secondary" character, when it is proven time and time again that it isn't true.

That's a good question. MkLeo's meta knight is considered the best, and with his caliber of skill, I believe MkLeo could win a major with meta knight if he put his mind to it. He did take 2gg championship using predominantly meta knight.

I uh, missed clicking the character icon. He's somewhere up there with Greninja. He's tremendously underused. Ito probably coulda been PGR'd if he was still active.

The ability to get sponsorships is dependent on recognition and social media presence more than character choice.

No kidding? It's almost like that statement, in context, was used as a shorthand for "you can be successful with this character."

 

[Routa]

All this Link talk made me think... Where is Samus atm? What are holding her back? As far as I know only truly terrible MU for her is Fox. She can deal with many of the relevant top tiers: Mario, Rosa, Cloud and Marth.

 

[Finh009]

As far as I know only truly terrible MU for her is Fox.

Pikachu and Meta Knight are about as terrible as Fox.
Bayonetta and Duck Hunt are also pretty awful, albiet not as bad.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Duck Hunt

What makes that MU bad for Samus? Is it partially because Can eats up Charge Shots?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Oh boy, where do I begin.

Everyone likes to meme about "just SDI" when its just one (important) aspect to fighting Bayo. SDI in general is helpful against most of the cast, just much more helpful in Bayo's case. Not only does it make her ladder combos more inconsistent, the other reason is that when you fall out of Bayo's combos it creates situations where Bayo is above you and is either forced to land with lag or give up stage control to catch the ledge. Or even better, catching her high in the air with an u-air, killing her depending on percents. In a nutshell it shortens Bayo's advantage state while also creating potential dangerous situations for her as well.

For whatever reason people only want a short, easy answer to beat this character, which I assume is why they feel so betrayed when SDI wasn't that one answer. Given how accessible Smash 4 is compared to previous games, its only natural for the majority of players to feel contempt when they're faced with a character who's actually unforgiving, in a game that's honestly way too forgiving. Infinite airdodges, better recoveries, no ledge hogs, low endlag on rolls, short easy to execute auto combos, etc. Probably the main reason we still play with 2 stocks in a game that's supposed to be faster than Brawl.

Like you're talking about getting killed by n-airs or getting killed off the top still, but are you actually thinking about how or why you were put in that situation? Did Bayo read your tech option and threw you offstage with a grab or b-air? Was that roll optimal or did you just panic in an attempt to regain stage immediately? Or are you just getting hit by n-air onstage, if so why? Did you know Bayo's n-air hitbox is mostly horizontal, easy to intercept with vertical hitboxes? And you got killed off the top despite your SDI, but were you actually SDIing in the right direction? Also why were you in the air, is it because you got hit by a full heelside or a d-tilt? Why did you get by these unsafe, punishable on block moves in the first place? Did you shield these moves but went for a greedier punish, allowing her to witch twist your commitment? I could go on longer but that won't be necessary.

I think the main issue, particularly with lower level players, is that people tunnel vision into their win condition without thinking about what their opponent is capable of and how they access their own win condition. Like for whatever reason the common mindset is "ok imma go in and hit them. wait i didnt hit them, now im down by 50%, waaaaaaaah" rather than "ok this character can do X but is vulnerable in this spot, i will plan and position my character accordingly and use my tools to exploit those moments". For example, MK Leo might not outright state these things, but you can very visibly see it in how he plays when it comes to beating top Bayonetta players back to back. When Leo wins neutral, he takes the simple guaranteed punish and backs off, holding center stage and waiting for the Bayo's answer, and acts accordingly. And when there IS a right moment to pressure Bayonetta, he does exactly that. Like for **** sake Leo wins using a relatively simple character who's widely considered not even top tier, why *no one* even attempts to emulate or learn from Leo's gameplay I have yet to figure out.

Of course people will talk about how Bayo is unfun and hurts viewership, but regarding viewership Barnard already debunked that notion with his article from not too long ago. As for how fun it is to fight Bayonetta, that's purely subjective and there's as many top players that don't have a problem with fighting her as there are top players that openly dislike her. Not "liking" a matchup isn't good enough to ban that character outright.

I really like this post. You we t straight to the point and asked questions that usually get avoided.

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Is it really worth it to put in so much stock just for a video game?

Since we are here on Smashboards, Twitter, Youtube, Discord, Smash Amino, GameFAQS, IRL at tournaments, and probably many other websites that I do not know of besides Facebook, you can say that putting in a lot of effort is worth it. Really, I think that is dependent on a player and how much time and effort they can afford to spend playing a videogame to improve along with how much effort they conaider is enough to satisfy them..

Then what does that say for Mario? Do we just not put any more stock into the character and just not care?

If so, what's the point in taking tier lists seriously if they're that volatile?

Some players think like that when a player claims to drop a character or stop playing for any reason, just look at how this thread responded when Taiheita announced that he was retiring. Similar situations have happened when reports of Pit and Palutena mains have called it quits. The immediate response is "rip said character's metagame and proceed to the next topic".

If that bothers you, you can still play the character and work with other character mains to support them and hopefully change others opinions of them. Results will vary on if your attempts to persuade somebody will work or not; if it fails, just stick with your group of supporters and do your best. You can even ignore the "negative" comments or try to build a case for why an individual is wrong for their opinions.

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For the SDI talk from a few pages back, by far, I think the easiest move to SDI in the game is the Lethinium's laser (the flower enemy from Classic Mode and Smash Run). You move about as far if not farther than Bowser's pivot grab range from the Diddy screenshot that became a meme. Give it a shot, I find it fun and interesting.
Competitive-wise, I think another reason that Lucas's n-air is easy to SDI (beside it's 2.0 SDI multiplier) has to due with how the game handles electric attacks and hitstun. I forgot how that works.

 

[|RK|]

Sidenote, since I haven't talked about Kirby in ages...

Despite the catch-all saying "Kirby loses to range," it's increasingly clear that Marcina is no more than +1 vs Kirby. Pretty much every top Marcina's MU charts reflect this (Leo, Mr E, Pugwest), as do results (Both Poyo and Mike Kirby have taken sets from Mr E recently).

Second, Ryu. I think every top active Ryu has lost to a Kirby at some point, showing that it is yet another one of his better MUs. Locus has lost to BrotherQuang, THUNDER lost to Poyo twice, and Darkshad lost to Komota (but also beat him in the loser's bracket runback). Oh, and of course Venom has lost to SGK's Kirby.

It's either a VERY close -1 for Kirby, or solidly even. I tend towards the latter, but the difference barely matters.

That's about all.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Despite the catch-all saying "Kirby loses to range," it's increasingly clear that Marcina is no more than +1 vs Kirby. Pretty much every top Marcina's MU charts reflect this (Leo, Mr E, Pugwest), as do results (Both Poyo and Mike Kirby have taken sets from Mr E recently).

Why do you think that is? In just about every state I can think of, Marcina have the advantage.

• Footsies: Marcina
• Range: Marcina
• Aerials: Marcina
• Killing: Marcina

The only state where Kirby might be better is disadvantage. Of course, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[|RK|]

Why do you think that is? In just about every state I can think of, Marcina have the advantage.

• Footsies: Marcina
• Range: Marcina
• Aerials: Marcina
• Killing: Marcina

The only state where Kirby might be better is disadvantage. Of course, correct me if I'm wrong.

Disadvantage is the most obvious, since it means Kirby isn't as helpless in the air as Mario often is.

But Kirby is also deceptively good in neutral vs Marcina. Their moves are either extremely punishable on shield, or they can be crouched (including grab). The exception to this is dtilt, and you can't play neutral based on that one move. When it becomes predictable, it becomes punishable.

In addition, Kirby's ftilt has really solid range, nearly the same length as Marcina's sword.

Then there's Marcina's landing... A lack of options means it's not that hard to extend advance by catching landings. Marcina coming down on Kirby is extremely punishable, and everything else can mean forcing them back to ledge.

Marcina still wins due to how difficult they can be to get in on with good spacing and pp tilts. More than that, dancing blade remains an incredibly powerful tool in neutral. Tomahawks mixed in with landing aerials can also put a lot of pressure on Kirby to guess.

But Kirby's advantages in the MU are enough that none of that is *overwhelming*.

 

[ARGHETH]

Disadvantage is the most obvious, since it means Kirby isn't as helpless in the air as Mario often is.

But Kirby is also deceptively good in neutral vs Marcina. Their moves are either extremely punishable on shield, or they can be crouched (including grab). The exception to this is dtilt, and you can't play neutral based on that one move. When it becomes predictable, it becomes punishable.

In addition, Kirby's ftilt has really solid range, nearly the same length as Marcina's sword.

Then there's Marcina's landing... A lack of options means it's not that hard to extend advance by catching landings. Marcina coming down on Kirby is extremely punishable, and everything else can mean forcing them back to ledge.

Marcina still wins due to how difficult they can be to get in on with good spacing and pp tilts. More than that, dancing blade remains an incredibly powerful tool in neutral. Tomahawks mixed in with landing aerials can also put a lot of pressure on Kirby to guess.

But Kirby's advantages in the MU are enough that none of that is *overwhelming*.

What about Corrin?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Collision XV is the only PGR'ed event this weekend, which is B Tier.

PGR'ed Players
Salem
Nairo
Dabuz
Marss
ANTi
Mr. E
Shoyo James
6WX


Not PGR'ed, but notable
Dark Wizzy
Ralphie
Frozen
Glare
Zoan
Raptor
TGG
Sinji
MattyG
SDX
Koolaid
JaKaL
Angel Cortes
Biddy
Sandstorm

Bonus
Nintoonist

 

[Iridium]

Collision XV is the only PGR'ed event this weekend, which is B Tier.

PGR'ed Players
Salem
Nairo
Dabuz
Marss
ANTi
Mr. E
Shoyo James
6WX


Not PGR'ed, but notable
Dark Wizzy
Ralphie
Frozen
Glare
Zoan
Raptor
TGG
Sinji
MattyG
SDX
Koolaid
JaKaL
Angel Cortes
Biddy
Sandstorm

Bonus
Nintoonist

There has been a serious lack of S-Tier events recently, but maybe Hyrule Saga will be different, as well as EVO 2018.

Also, |RK| , how exactly does the Link-Kirby MU play? I have been struggling against Kirby recently, and I want to know what should Link and even Toon Link should do.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There has been a serious lack of S-Tier events recently, but maybe Hyrule Saga will be different, as well as EVO 2018.

That is because the requirement to get a rank higher than C Tier has increased. S+ Tier is removed and A+ tier is added. If the TTS used the same formula as last season, then we would have three S Tiers: Genesis, Frostbite, and Battle for Vegas.

Also, there has been a lack of events where most of the top players attended the same tournament, which hit the three A Tier events hard (notably Frostbite).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nintoonist

Great, that guy.

 

[|RK|]

What about Corrin?

That one still sucks. True air combos mean you're not jumping away until Corrin is done with you.

You can't crouch grab, or really anything important. Pin forces you to shield all the time (or predict it and bair), and it's generally not safe to be too close to Corrin or too far. You're only safe with them in disadvantage...