Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nathan Richardson]

Sorry fam, low IQ is not good enough grounds to ban someone.

But I will remind everyone that we are all better off getting our money's worth out of that IGNORE button instead of constantly lecturing these people. Don't be ashamed, just click it.

There's an ignore button? I don't see one anywhere. Where is it?

 

[Rizen]

There's an ignore button? I don't see one anywhere. Where is it?

Click the user's name and a little window will pop up. The ignore button is on the middle right.

 

[TDK]

There's an ignore button? I don't see one anywhere. Where is it?

Step 1: Click on someone's name
Step 2: Click on the "ignore" button next to the follow button

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Tried clicking on their names, just gave me stats with no buttons. No ignore button, no nothing. I do this on my Wii U so some options might not be around.

edit: nvm found it but it WASN'T in the corner, it was in the center of the window, right underneath the name, location, and when the user joined the boards.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Do you guys think Limit Cloud's buffs are useful barring special moves? What new tactics become available?

Well, like I implied in my post: At least against Marcina, Neutral against Cloud is manageable while Neutral against Limit Cloud is a whole lot less manageable. I'd argue his mobility buffs are even better than the Limit Specials, because they're so strong and completely turn his game around.

 

[KakuCP9]

If you want to see the Mayhem that Limit Cloud can cause, look up Tweek cause out the top Clouds, he's the one who uses it to the fullest running with godly airspeed and nonsensical aerials.

 

[Deleted member]

I highly disagree with banning Bayonetta by the way, she is no where near Brawl Meta Knight.
Who dares to make fun of my best friend, @Das Koopa? No one makes fun of @Das Koopa at all.
No one makes fun of anyone. If someone is being annoying, apply it to this post.

Sorry fam, low IQ is not good enough grounds to ban someone.

But I will remind everyone that we are all better off getting our money's worth out of that IGNORE button instead of constantly lecturing these people. Don't be ashamed, just click it.

@Chainz. is right, just press the report or ignore button. It fills the thread with waste and so on. The moderators got this under control. As said earlier; press the ignore or report button.

NOVEMBER DATA WRITE-UP

December data write-up coming in the next day. Just getting this out of the way since I missed it!

Monthly character movements:

Other +0.9%
Marth +0.5%
Cloud +0.4%
Donkey Kong +0.4%
Peach +0.3%
Sheik +0.2%
Lucina +0.2%
Pikachu +0.2%
Yoshi +0.2%
Diddy Kong +0.1%
R.O.B. +0.1%
Mega Man +0.1%
Corrin +0.1%
Shulk +0.1%
Sonic = 5.8%
Zero Suit Samus = 3.6%
Meta Knight = 2.2%
Villager = 0.8%
Olimar = 0.7%
Mewtwo -0.1%
Samus -0.1%
Captain Falcon -0.1%
Toon Link -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Ryu -0.3%
Rosalina & Luma -0.3%
Ness -0.4%
Luigi -0.4%
Bayonetta -0.5%
Mario -0.6%
Fox -0.8%

Spoiler: Full Results, November 2017

Bayonetta: 505.5
Cloud: 494.25
Diddy Kong: 399.75
Sheik: 342
Fox: 288
Sonic: 284
Mario: 213.25
Zero Suit Samus: 174.5
Rosalina & Luma: 166
Mewtwo: 161.75
Ryu: 135.25
Captain Falcon: 126.75
Meta Knight: 108.75
Greninja: 93.25
Corrin: 87
Pikachu: 86.5
Peach: 85.25
Marth: 79.75
Luigi: 79.25
Donkey Kong: 76.5
Ness: 76
Toon Link: 65.75
R.O.B.: 59.25
Lucina: 59
Mega Man: 49.5
Shulk: 41.5
Samus: 39
Villager: 39
Yoshi: 38
Lucario: 33.25
Lucas: 33
Bowser: 32.5
Olimar: 32
Mr. Game & Watch: 32
Ike: 31
Roy: 30.75
Wario: 24
Link: 20.5
Little Mac: 19.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 18.5
Charizard: 17
Duck Hunt: 16
Pit: 15.5
Robin: 14.5
Falco: 13.5
King Dedede: 9.5
Ganondorf: 6
Palutena: 5.5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Dark Pit: 4
Zelda: 3.5
Kirby: 2.5
Dr. Mario: 1.5
Pac-Man: 1
Mii Gunner: 1
Jigglypuff: 0.25

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jks0EtmeNemKsm2rXzYf8RB3D43-Ru23ypx_DOnQPDY/edit#

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-215#post-21870780

Phase 6 retrospective coming soon & whatnot, this month will be busy data-wise!

Thank you for making this! It is nice to see Captain Falcon and Greninja getting a lot of usage. Greninja's high placement in the points describes my reason why Greninja deserves a raise. Greninja's great mobility and not as bad flaws as well as his combo ability is what makes him worthy of rising. Of course Cloud gets a rise in the point score. I think Bayonetta will always be the best and Cloud being second.

 

[Kofu]

Well, like I implied in my post: At least against Marcina, Neutral against Cloud is manageable while Neutral against Limit Cloud is a whole lot less manageable. I'd argue his mobility buffs are even better than the Limit Specials, because they're so strong and completely turn his game around.

I agree with you wholeheartedly; Limit Cloud's mobility is absurd.

It's worth noting that the tweaks to his fall speed/gravity can make him more susceptible to certain combos, though. Limit Cloud is much easier to kill with Game & Watch's DThrow to UAir, for example

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The mobility buffs Cloud gets from Limit are pretty absurd with his already good mobility without. It's the reason I've never been against his Limit specials getting tuned down some. It does pose a question how well would a camp Cloud do with his limit active? He posses the air and ground speed to do it along with the fact he has the gigantic sword for spacing. Just darting around the stage from plat to plat and using his giant disjoints to keep space.

 

[Minordeth]

Limit Cloud is hilariously fast. Like, suddenly he has the best airspeed in the game and is faster on the ground than Mewtwo, with a Sheik-esque short hop time, and so on.

Campy (I’ll say Hit and Run) Limit Cloud is why, say, Luigi doesn’t beat Cloud.

Hot take: Hit and Run Limit Cloud is probably why Cloud will end up being a losing MU for Bayo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Limit Cloud has real hit confirms into kills from 80% and up.

Let it sink in.

 

[Deleted member]

As a main, I understand this. Limit Cloud is a huge threat to be around with everything buffed ( mobility, defense, strength, etc ) and allows for easy comebacks. I understand why Sheik wins the match up for regular Cloud but Limit Cloud becomes a harder match up for her ( albeit she still slightly wins that matchup with Limit Cloud ). If Cloud keeps his limit and has max rage ( 150% or higher ), Sheik is in huge trouble. Limit Cloud also wins the Fox and Marth match up slightly, but not regular Cloud. Fox and Marth are even to Cloud. Also I am a firm believer that Limit Cloud wins 3.0 with Little Mac. Having the best air speed in the game against a character that has the worst air game in the game is not good. Though Cloud does fall faster and increase gravity, it means he can fall into such things. I understand why Sheik wins against Cloud, but why does Pikachu win against Cloud? I personally think it goes very slightly in Pikachu's favor ( between -0.2 to -0.5 ).

 

[MH-Jin]

One thing about Cloud in limit is that Sheik's confirms work for a longer period on him due to faster fall speed and having a large hurt box in general... Such as ftilt/dtilt to up air or needles/rising fair to bouncing fish. However it will be harder to kill Cloud off the top.

Also while Sheik can find it harder to gimp limit Cloud... She can still edgeguard him easily when he recovers low with her usage of aerial b reverse needles and great aerials. The issue is more when he recovers high and the Sheik player has to track his landing.

 

[KakuCP9]

It's kinda funny how we're all here talking about Cloud when it's his turn in the character discussion thread and it's been pretty quiet there for the past two days.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Balance wise giving Cloud more mobile may not be a good idea even if it makes sense from his games.

What makes him so strong is that outside of his recovery he really doesn’t have much that stands out as a weakness outside of maybe landing issues and no simple way to reset back to neutral.

 

[Heracr055]

It's kinda funny how we're all here talking about Cloud when it's his turn in the character discussion thread and it's been pretty quiet there for the past two days.

Cloud discussion is always relevant to the meta, which can't be said for most characters covered there so far.
Plus, this thread is always busy and the majority of posters will look here for their updates/"fix."

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even though it's a convo from last page, one thing I do wanna point out is that Brawl MK has of course been broken since day 1 and had a large player base right off the bat.

Bayonetta on the other hand was not in the game since day 1 but she was broken enough to have a big player base and winning some well known locals/regionals along with finding 0-deaths within minutes of her release, although we didn't get to see many at big nationals yet due to her being nerfed a week or two later.

Imagine a world where smash 4 had no patches but had DLC still. Diddy/Bayo might've been banned long ago while a combination of Sheik Cloud Sonic and Fox would be running rampant in the top 8 of nationals. (with cloud banned in doubles most likely)

 

[The-Technique]

This is a mixed bag. Most think it's a slight loss because, at the end of the day, Cloud is basically like better Marcina. Personally, I think this is an even Matchup in Smashville, Town and City and Battlefield while this is slight disadvantage in Lylat, Final Destination and Dreamland. Cloud's movements are too good in Lylat for us to keep up, especially with Limit, FD for Marcina is iffy in general, especially against character with Advantage States as potentially oppressive as Cloud, and Dreamland is, as always for Marcina, Battlefield without any of the things that makes BF good for us. In a way... Everything Cloud does is a potentially better version of everything we can do. Non-Limit Cross Slash is literally Dancing Blade Down if Dancing Blade Down wasn't crazy unreliable, Falling Up Air starts juggles that can cause mad damage, Limit Cloud has such amazing movement far outclassing us and everything he does requires much less of a commit than anything we do. He's better Marcina in every sense of the word. I was talking about this in the Marcina Discord yesterday and it's the sad reality: There's no MU in this game (aside from maybe Pikachu) where going Marcina is a better choice than going Cloud. Despite all of this, I'd still argue this MU is probably Even despite probably not being far from a loss. Neutral, although Cloud is probably better in this regard than us and definitely way better with Limit, is still entirely manageable from our side, and we blow up each other really hard when either of us is in Disadvantage. Cloud is great at juggles and tacking on damage, while Marcina is great at swatting people around in the air, punishing bad whiffs or lack of safety around their shield, doing short combos that deal great damage (of which Cloud is perfect for falling into because he's big, somewhat heavy, potentially fastfaller with Limit and has basically no escape options out of disadvantage aside from Airdodging) and executing kill confirms (of which he's prone to falling into because of the aforementioned reasons. He can even fall into Lucina's SHDB1>Nair 1>FSmash and sometimes even Jab>SHDB1>Nair 1>FSmash, things that hardly work on anyone else, which is a thing that gives certain edge in the MU, although nothing super game changing)

Although Cloud is generally the better choice for most top tier matchups, I think saying he's a better Marcina in every way is selling him/her a bit short. Dancing Blade is faster on startup (making it broken OOS) and overall more versatile, plus for Marth its a dependable kill option at reasonable percents, or at very high percents upward Dancing Blade 3 can be mixed up into U-smash. Both characters have great movement combined with perfect pivots, but Marth's #1 walk speed combined with his superior grab game and broken neutral buttons (jab 1 = nuff said) makes his ground game much better compared to Cloud's.

Both characters are great offstage but Marcina can go for riskier edgeguards plus having an additional option of using Counter against certain recoveries. Cloud's u-air juggles are more explosive particularly with platform assistance, but Marth converts a lot from his own u-air juggles as well, on top of which his tipper u-air kills much earlier and can be combo'd into. And of course Marth's f-air is better in most situations compared to Cloud's. I would even argue that Marcina's b-air is overall better than Cloud's given its lower FAF and faster startup, Cloud's b-air is really only great when its being SHFF in a corner pressure situation, but its not a good rising option given its longer startup and autocancel window.

 

[Minordeth]

Cloud doesn’t need to go offstage. If he has Limit, unless you’re Sheik, you aren’t getting off the ledge very easily. Even if you do, Cloud can build a house in center stage and live there while swatting you away until he kills you.

 

[WiFi]

Cloud doesn't even really need to edgeguard to actually take a stock. Most of Cloud's kill moves will kill early anyways. I play a defensive/campy Cloud, and I can say from personal experience that once I get Limit, only Sonic, Fox, and Sheik can touch me. I do feel that Pikachu is Cloud's worst MU though. Pikachu can catch Cloud and gimp him at zero if the Cloud plays too offensively. Thankfully Pikachu is not too common of a character.

 

[The-Technique]

Cloud doesn’t need to go offstage. If he has Limit, unless you’re Sheik, you aren’t getting off the ledge very easily. Even if you do, Cloud can build a house in center stage and live there while swatting you away until he kills you.

I mean if you just let Cloud do whatever he wants, then yes this scenario where he can just swat you away until you die will definitely play out. But in this game every character interacts differently, true there are a few matchups where a character can do almost nothing vs Cloud but even characters that SHOULD be completely helpless vs Cloud like Jigglypuff have ways to approach and deal with him.

Also I feel like this thread kind of veers back in forth between two moods: one that's mildly optimistic towards Cloud and the other that's *oppressively* pessimistic. Even Tweek has recently stated his annoyance toward people that think Cloud wins anything for free.

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud at Limit + Max Range is insanely dangerous. ( Finishing Touch ) can be killing at much earlier percents and his knock back being increased from Limit increases even more. Cloud is probably one of the characters that benefits from rage a lot more than almost everyone else ( Bowser and DK are some good examples ). What happened to Bidou by the way? Was everyone just used to the GC Controller too much? Do most people use the controlling system the default way in Melee? Bidou is actually huge for characters like Sheik who can edge guard much easier. I feel like Sheik benefits from Bidou a lot more than some others.

 

[MH-Jin]

Cloud at Limit + Max Range is insanely dangerous. ( Finishing Touch ) can be killing at much earlier percents and his knock back being increased from Limit increases even more. Cloud is probably one of the characters that benefits from rage a lot more than almost everyone else ( Bowser and DK are some good examples ). What happened to Bidou by the way? Was everyone just used to the GC Controller too much? Do most people use the controlling system the default way in Melee? Bidou is actually huge for characters like Sheik who can edge guard much easier. I feel like Sheik benefits from Bidou a lot more than some others.

Sheik actually benefits more from tilt/attack stick. One it allows her to space aerials better and not lose momentum while in the air and aids with shff fair timing. Another benefit is that when she does perfect pivot combos.. It's easier with the usage of attack stick (Especially with pp utilt)

 

[Rizen]

Balance wise giving Cloud more mobile may not be a good idea even if it makes sense from his games.

It doesn't; in FFVII limit only turned the attack command into limit break with no bonuses. You couldn't manually charge it either.
Poor has to fight for his "limit" and gets hit out of it. He should have had a charging move.

 

[Lord Dio]

It doesn't; in FFVII limit only turned the attack command into limit break with no bonuses. You couldn't manually charge it either.
Poor has to fight for his "limit" and gets hit out of it. He should have had a charging move.

He does. It's his neutral b

 

[Rizen]

He does. It's his neutral b

I meant a way to charge his KO gauge.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Fox, is Fox going to make it into top five next tier list? He got top five in @Das Koopa 's results. Top five does look like a stretch at first but Fox is very gradually becoming better. Sonic and Rosalina are questionable though, maybe Sonic will rise or stay in his same spot the next tier list.

It doesn't; in FFVII limit only turned the attack command into limit break with no bonuses. You couldn't manually charge it either.
Poor has to fight for his "limit" and gets hit out of it. He should have had a charging move.

Eh I think a charging move would be weird for Little Mac. What would he do, lift weights?
Anyway, a charging move would make him vulnerable to grabs and getting booted offstage to loose a stock. It just works better for Cloud because his situation and he can punish harder than Little Mac when not charged. I mean Little Mac can go for smash attacks I guess. Plus KO punch is much more powerful than Finishing Touch and down tilt is a great set up for it.

Sheik actually benefits more from tilt/attack stick. One it allows her to space aerials better and not lose momentum while in the air and aids with shff fair timing. Another benefit is that when she does perfect pivot combos.. It's easier with the usage of attack stick (Especially with pp utilt)

I was thinking that. Quicker Smash attacks are worth removing for air combos. Sheik can not kill as well as she once did, and she still can be deadly in the air with her forward air ( despite it being largely nerfed ). Good stuff!

 

[Lord Dio]

Speaking of Fox, is Fox going to make it into top five next tier list?

Fox needs a win on ZeRo that isn't through secondaries at a weekly (CDK) or at the end of the year on an event that isn't counted by PGR (larry 2-0 over ZeRo at boot camp)
Speaking PGR, fox didn't get any wins over ZeRo this year. Last year Larry got three sets on ZeRo (Mexico and Abadango Sagas).
Larry said constantly ZeRo's been his demon this year, and imo Leo is a close second for that title.
Larry also only won one event, Dreamhack Montreal, which iirc wasn't even A tier.......

Basically fox gets results and rep is coming in hot (light, xzax, cdk, and more), so I think he'll be seen as a little better this year.
Keep in mind his competition for top 5 were two characters who won multiple major events, including smash con, TBH7, Civil War, and others.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It doesn't; in FFVII limit only turned the attack command into limit break with no bonuses. You couldn't manually charge it either.
Poor has to fight for his "limit" and gets hit out of it. He should have had a charging move.

His atb speed to make a move filled up super fast in limit, same with every character in ff7.

 

[Minordeth]

I mean if you just let Cloud do whatever he wants, then yes this scenario where he can just swat you away until you die will definitely play out. But in this game every character interacts differently, true there are a few matchups where a character can do almost nothing vs Cloud but even characters that SHOULD be completely helpless vs Cloud like Jigglypuff have ways to approach and deal with him.

Also I feel like this thread kind of veers back in forth between two moods: one that's mildly optimistic towards Cloud and the other that's *oppressively* pessimistic. Even Tweek has recently stated his annoyance toward people that think Cloud wins anything for free.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Cloud makes everyone free, but he almost gets overshadowed by Bayo talk. And people forget he’s pretty good. He absolutely can get counterplayed, though. And I’m pretty sure he does have one or two losing match ups because of some intrinsic weaknesses that he has to play around.

He’s almost like a Melee Fox, where he has all this flashy mobility and oppressive optioning, so everyone goes full aggro all the time, because it’s fun. And works. A lot.

But really, he would be more consistent being a bit more campy and a little less Mango.

And also like Melee Fox, he has some drawbacks that take mastery to compensate for, and we aren’t all the way there yet. And people don’t seem willing to play him that way all the time.

But! He’s really good anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

I think MkLeo still thinks Marth is top five and is the best sword fighter in the game. How interesting...
I actually also think Marth is slightly getting used more again ( he rose slightly by .5% in @Das Koopa 's score sheet ). But the thing is he is defiently the top tier who is ranked the lowest out of any of the top tiers. Even other high tier characters like Peach have better scores than Marth. So I doubt Marth will get a rise in the tier list. I personally liked @Shaya 's character point score a lot, because the division was so much better than what the V4 tier list did. I am glad that Mario, Mewtwo, Marth and Ryu were seperated from Sonic, Fox, ZSS, Rosalina and Sheik. The first group is more related to the highest of the high tiers rather than the top tiers. I personally think the V4 Backroom tier list should make 1 - 8 top tier. Having twelve top tiers is a bit too much for me.

 

[Minordeth]

Uh, don’t forget people that Marcina approach pretty much every MU the same way. I mean, for God’s sake, we call the two of them “Marcina.”

My point is that if you really wanna see Marcina’s results, combine their points.

Coincidentally, per the last Das Koopa update, Marcina has 135.75, which is above Ryu and Captain. And Peach. And Corrin. And Pikachu.

You get the idea.

 

[Onua]

Honestly really saddening seeing how little Palutena is used. Shes criminally underrated.
> Good mobility
> Despite some weak buttons (ftilt, etc) she has some incredibly strong buttons and a solid neutral
> Overall solid MU spread outside of Sheik every MU isnt that bad and is totally doable and even Sheik isnt truly awful
> Great grab game

I still get incredibly confused as to why she is placed in low tier outside of the fact no one plays her. Her playerbase is incredibly small which is also confusing to me.

 

[The-Technique]

Honestly really saddening seeing how little Palutena is used. Shes criminally underrated.
> Good mobility
> Despite some weak buttons (ftilt, etc) she has some incredibly strong buttons and a solid neutral
> Overall solid MU spread outside of Sheik every MU isnt that bad and is totally doable and even Sheik isnt truly awful
> Great grab game

I still get incredibly confused as to why she is placed in low tier outside of the fact no one plays her. Her playerbase is incredibly small which is also confusing to me.

palutena mainly suffers the curse of being good but not great so she doesn't stand out much compared to the characters ranked above her. she has great buttons combined with a small number of mediocre to useless buttons so the most her meta will grow to is "okay i guess".

basically small playerbase + decent-ish character + not many results = low tier placing

 

[HoSmash4]

X-post from @Gheb～ regarding Palutena.
All of her tilts are bad. They lose to shield and roll - the two best defensive options - big time and due to their high startup also tend to lose to most stuff that comes from close range. The only thing they beat consistently are dodges but spotdodge is subpar compared to shield. And her utilt lasts too long to cover airdodges reliably.

In order to not get destroyed in close range you'll need at least one quick option that doesn't
necessarily need a lot of range. Palutena lacks that option as her jab has a long startup period. What is she to do if somebody pokes her shield with a safe aerial that can't be shieldgrabbed? She doesn't have much of an answer to that. That's a fundamental flaw that can be abused by just about every character in the game and Palutena can't really do anything about it.
She heavily relies on the invincibility on bair and dash attack to cover numerous gaps that are left open by her jab, her tilts, her smashes and her specials ... by pretty much her whole moveset. That really should tell you all you need to know about her. If your character's moveset has that many holes that need to be covered by two moves [more or less, her grab is quite good as well] then it's just a matter of time until the character falls apart

 

[The-Technique]

X-post from @Gheb～ regarding Palutena.
All of her tilts are bad. They lose to shield and roll - the two best defensive options - big time and due to their high startup also tend to lose to most stuff that comes from close range. The only thing they beat consistently are dodges but spotdodge is subpar compared to shield. And her utilt lasts too long to cover airdodges reliably.

In order to not get destroyed in close range you'll need at least one quick option that doesn't
necessarily need a lot of range. Palutena lacks that option as her jab has a long startup period. What is she to do if somebody pokes her shield with a safe aerial that can't be shieldgrabbed? She doesn't have much of an answer to that. That's a fundamental flaw that can be abused by just about every character in the game and Palutena can't really do anything about it.
She heavily relies on the invincibility on bair and dash attack to cover numerous gaps that are left open by her jab, her tilts, her smashes and her specials ... by pretty much her whole moveset. That really should tell you all you need to know about her. If your character's moveset has that many holes that need to be covered by two moves [more or less, her grab is quite good as well] then it's just a matter of time until the character falls apart

her tilts aren't as bad as they are situational (except f-tilt that pretty much sucks). d-tilt has long startup but a long lingering hitbox and low endlag so it covers roll-in and dash in approaches when used properly. (and considering most people view mario's up smash as a safe move when it has the same endlag and *less* shield safety than palu's d-tilt...) u-tilt is an anti-air and punishes normal/jump getup and can kill at late percents...thats about it i guess

close range isn't too problematic when you're spending half your time in the air, and f-air is positive on shield and low commitment. as for when someone's hitting your shield with an aerial it depends on how they're doing it. if its someone like cloud where they're spacing b-air you either call out their spacing with an immediate rising f-air or perform dash in rising n-air. of course if they aren't bad they'll mix up their options but that goes for any matchup

jab is slow on startup (1 frame slower than Link's) but its also low commitment (same endlag as marcina, -7 on shield which is better than most jabs) and rewarding to land. generally palutena follows up a f-air on shield with jab to condition the opponent into responding a certain way, then read the option once they're in that same situation again. palutena's walk and dash speeds are really good (13th-14th best) so she can space herself well most of the time

up smash is pretty good and can hit below the ledge and blow up normal/jump getup options...but dsmash and fsmash are pretty ass. d-air is fast but small and finicky in its hitbox so it doesn't get much use outside of edgeguards. auto reticle is meh but somewhat okay for getting an opponent out of their tent or clanking with other projectiles. counter sucks....

overall that's around 5 bad moves in her kit. i agree her moveset is limiting but it isnt the travesty its made out to be, it just means her gameplay is kind of braindead outside of her ledge cancel warp shenanigans, and playing optimally means playing really lame and boring. this character isn't that good but can be really obnoxious to fight against, make no mistake.

 

[Rizen]

Well Palutena's in E tier so you might consider that mid-tier. The trick to ranking characters is to look at the tiers around their own and ask "is _________ as good as _____?" For E tier characters it would be "is Palutena as good as D tier's Link/Shulk?">No>E tier. It all boils down to somebody has to be low/bottom tier. You have to respect characters and learn MUs, Prince Raymin did beat ZeRo with her. This would happen very sporadically at best if they played a lot of course. The point is you can't sleep on characters in SSB4.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Fox needs a win on ZeRo that isn't through secondaries at a weekly (CDK) or at the end of the year on an event that isn't counted by PGR (larry 2-0 over ZeRo at boot camp)
Speaking PGR, fox didn't get any wins over ZeRo this year. Last year Larry got three sets on ZeRo (Mexico and Abadango Sagas).
Larry said constantly ZeRo's been his demon this year, and imo Leo is a close second for that title.
Larry also only won one event, Dreamhack Montreal, which iirc wasn't even A tier.......

Basically fox gets results and rep is coming in hot (light, xzax, cdk, and more), so I think he'll be seen as a little better this year.
Keep in mind his competition for top 5 were two characters who won multiple major events, including smash con, TBH7, Civil War, and others.

First of all, CDK was actually playing Sheik that set, and secondly, unless you meant to say this season and not this year, what about Xzax at Civil War?

 

[Frihetsanka]

My point is that if you really wanna see Marcina’s results, combine their points.

Coincidentally, per the last Das Koopa update, Marcina has 135.75, which is above Ryu and Captain. And Peach. And Corrin. And Pikachu.

Isn't there an issue of double-dipping though? If a Marth or Lucina player plays the other character as well the character would get some points for both characters, right? Mr. E is the prime example of a top level player who does this. So you can't strictly do that.

Well Palutena's in E tier so you might consider that mid-tier. The trick to ranking characters is to look at the tiers around their own and ask "is _________ as good as _____?" For E tier characters it would be "is Palutena as good as D tier's Link/Shulk?">No>E tier. It all boils down to somebody has to be low/bottom tier. You have to respect characters and learn MUs, Prince Raymin did beat ZeRo with her. This would happen very sporadically at best if they played a lot of course. The point is you can't sleep on characters in SSB4.

Palutena is the 11th worst character when not counting Miis, according to the 4BR. Her voting score wasn't that much better than Pac-Man's or Falco's, so you could consider her low tier (or them low-mid tier). Either way she's bottom 11. It should be noted that even low tiers in Smash 4 can do stuff. I imagine if a character had a MU spread of 30 slightly losing MUs and 20 even MUs that character would likely be considered low tier (or low-mid tier at best), yet that character could win every MU (worst MU being slightly losing). Smash 4 has very few MUs worse than 40:60, which is a bit different from Melee and Brawl where you saw top tiers going 65:35 or even 70:30* versus some low tiers. In Smash 4, a lot of the time when people say a MU is terrible, it's actually more like 40:60. 40:60 is pretty bad (a counter), and having such bad MUs can seriously hurt a character's viability (such as with Peach vs Meta Knight or Villager vs Cloud).

Why is Palutena so unpopular? I think there are several reasons. Firstly, a lot of her moves are pretty bad, which limits her options, especially for players who enjoy using tilts (her tilts are pretty situational) and specials (her default specials seem bad to me). Her MU spread is also not that good: She loses slightly to a lot of characters, and have a good amount of 40:60 MUs as well. You can't sleep on her, a 40:60 MU that you don't know might turn out to be a 50:50 or even 55:45 MU in practice (until you learn it).

I think MkLeo still thinks Marth is top five and is the best sword fighter in the game.

Have you seen the MU chart MkLeo posted? Marth might not be top 15 if that MU chart is correct! Which, granted, I don't think it's impossible that Marth might not be top 15. There are a lot of character fighting to be top 15 right now, such as Corrin, Mario, Marth, Olimar, Pikachu, Luigi, Lucina. At least two of these are not top 15 (assuming that Mewtwo or Ryu don't drop from top 15, although I find that highly unlikely). I would probably put Corrin, Mario, Marth/Lucina, and Pikachu in top 15, leaving Olimar and Luigi just barely outside. I'm far from 100% certain and I could see Luigi and/or Olimar moving up, thus pushing one or two of these characters out of top.

Something these characters all have in common: Really good MU spread against low tiers and mid tiers, but only decent against top tiers (most of them don't win against a single top tier, and all of them lose to a few top tiers). This means that they will likely remain kind of niche picks at top level, since if you really want to win you'd probably be better off picking a better character.

What do I mean with "niche picks"? Well... Generally, either because the player really enjoys the character in this game (such as Corrin players) or because the player played the character in a previous game. Ally played some Mario in Brawl, for instance. Mr. E played Smash 4 Marth even when Marth was considered kind of bad, and he also played Brawl Marth. Ryu players tend to be rare and they likely enjoy his specific playstyle. Let's not forget about the top Mewtwo players: Abadango used to play Pac-Man and Wario a lot, WaDi used to play R.O.B. a lot, that definitely falls under "niche". It wouldn't surprise me if they would have played Mewtwo even if Mewtwo were "only" top 20.

This is not too surprising. High tier characters in Smash tend to be somewhat uncommon in general at top level, because, well, most players who play at a top level want to increase their chances of winning, and picking a top tier does that. Those that don't might have some other reason, such as believing that their character is secretly top tier (such as ESAM with Pikachu), or because they enjoy playing the character, or because they want to stand out as a character specialist.

*In Brawl, and only Zelda, Ganondorf, and Bowser seemed to have -4 MUs.

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't there an issue of double-dipping though? If a Marth or Lucina player plays the other character as well the character would get some points for both characters, right? Mr. E is the prime example of a top level player who does this. So you can't strictly do that.

Palutena is the 11th worst character when not counting Miis, according to the 4BR. Her voting score wasn't that much better than Pac-Man's or Falco's, so you could consider her low tier (or them low-mid tier). Either way she's bottom 11. It should be noted that even low tiers in Smash 4 can do stuff. I imagine if a character had a MU spread of 30 slightly losing MUs and 20 even MUs that character would likely be considered low tier (or low-mid tier at best), yet that character could win every MU (worst MU being slightly losing). Smash 4 has very few MUs worse than 40:60, which is a bit different from Melee and Brawl where you saw top tiers going 65:35 or even 70:30* versus some low tiers. In Smash 4, a lot of the time when people say a MU is terrible, it's actually more like 40:60. 40:60 is pretty bad (a counter), and having such bad MUs can seriously hurt a character's viability (such as with Peach vs Meta Knight or Villager vs Cloud).

Why is Palutena so unpopular? I think there are several reasons. Firstly, a lot of her moves are pretty bad, which limits her options, especially for players who enjoy using tilts (her tilts are pretty situational) and specials (her default specials seem bad to me). Her MU spread is also not that good: She loses slightly to a lot of characters, and have a good amount of 40:60 MUs as well. You can't sleep on her, a 40:60 MU that you don't know might turn out to be a 50:50 or even 55:45 MU in practice (until you learn it).

Have you seen the MU chart MkLeo posted? Marth might not be top 15 if that MU chart is correct! Which, granted, I don't think it's impossible that Marth might not be top 15. There are a lot of character fighting to be top 15 right now, such as Corrin, Mario, Marth, Olimar, Pikachu, Luigi, Lucina. At least two of these are not top 15 (assuming that Mewtwo or Ryu don't drop from top 15, although I find that highly unlikely). I would probably put Corrin, Mario, Marth/Lucina, and Pikachu in top 15, leaving Olimar and Luigi just barely outside. I'm far from 100% certain and I could see Luigi and/or Olimar moving up, thus pushing one or two of these characters out of top.

Something these characters all have in common: Really good MU spread against low tiers and mid tiers, but only decent against top tiers (most of them don't win against a single top tier, and all of them lose to a few top tiers). This means that they will likely remain kind of niche picks at top level, since if you really want to win you'd probably be better off picking a better character.

What do I mean with "niche picks"? Well... Generally, either because the player really enjoys the character in this game (such as Corrin players) or because the player played the character in a previous game. Ally played some Mario in Brawl, for instance. Mr. E played Smash 4 Marth even when Marth was considered kind of bad, and he also played Brawl Marth. Ryu players tend to be rare and they likely enjoy his specific playstyle. Let's not forget about the top Mewtwo players: Abadango used to play Pac-Man and Wario a lot, WaDi used to play R.O.B. a lot, that definitely falls under "niche". It wouldn't surprise me if they would have played Mewtwo even if Mewtwo were "only" top 20.

This is not too surprising. High tier characters in Smash tend to be somewhat uncommon in general at top level, because, well, most players who play at a top level want to increase their chances of winning, and picking a top tier does that. Those that don't might have some other reason, such as believing that their character is secretly top tier (such as ESAM with Pikachu), or because they enjoy playing the character, or because they want to stand out as a character specialist.

*In Brawl, and only Zelda, Ganondorf, and Bowser seemed to have -4 MUs.

Actually, Bowser has a -4 match up for Dedede and Ice Climbers ( Chain Grabbing ). This can be the case for Meta Knight, but probably not. So Zelda, Ganondorf and Bowser are the only ones to have -4 match ups. I mean Ganondorf's match up spread is a total of... -3!

I heard Mew2King say that MKleo thinks Marth is top five in a recent stream ( a few days ago ) and the best sword fighter in the game. I think this is because he just thinks Marth is like Melee Marth in Smash 4. Interesting opinion.

The most important match up spread to win are the top tier match ups. Have really good match ups for the top tiers, you will be considered busted. I could also see Pac-Man winning the Diddy Kong match up, but his results need to show more of that. Trust me, Pac-Man has potential, but if all of his potential was shown he would be in the lower mid tier. ( top of E or bottom of D ). Right now he is a bottom ten character, and I guess I am okay with that. We need Sinji back.

I agree with Palutena's low placing. With a decreasing player base and overall mediocre game and some laggy moves, it makes sense why she is bottom eleven. I do not care if she rose, but right now she kind of belongs there. The only thing that saves Palutena are her really good match ups for a low mid tier. But then again, the reddit community largely messed up on Bowser's match up spread so I will check a legit match up made by a top player.