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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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G. Stache

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Very impressed with Elegant this tournament. He had a very good placing, especially considering he went solo Luigi. He was able to send the likes of Mr. E and Salem to losers (he 2-0d the latter), knocked out Fatality, took it to a last stock last hit game 5 situation with MKLeo (who went full cloud that set), and took Dabuz to game 5. Both of his losses were close sets against top players. Although he missed a top 8 placing, he definitely played very well and really made me optimistic about Luigi this tournament. Really excited to see him at other majors.
 
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L9999

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Zack still took Mr. R to game 5 and beat Aba & ANTi. Definitely a good look for his future.

Hopefully Komo recovers. I don't see him attending G5 though, he deleted all his tweets from the last month and didn't attend the awards ceremony. He's gone full M2K about it
Well, M2K is like that, but Komo is another story. Lets remember most* Japanese players play for glory. Not only Komo was cheated out of victory, but he got humilliated in public. I hope he doesn't cut his veins or goes in the wrong direction.

Speaking of good performances and "overrated DLC" there is a lot of Cloud in top 16, but all have secondaries. Leo used way more Cloud and won the thing though, so is it correct to call Cloud "overrated DLC?"
 
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Das Koopa

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Dark Komo will main Bayonetta and win Evo via timeout Kappa
 
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Hippieslayer

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Well, M2K is like that, but Komo is another story. Lets remember most* Japanese players play for glory. Not only Komo was cheated out of victory, but he got humilliated in public. I hope he doesn't cut his veins or goes in the wrong direction.

Speaking of good performances and "overrated DLC" there is a lot of Cloud in top 16, but all have secondaries. Leo used way more Cloud, so it is correct to call Cloud "overrated DLC?"
No, Cloud's been underrated for quite a while. Recent tournaments demonstrate his capabilities exceeding their perceived limits. Not that long ago people were going about him not winning tournaments. He didn't have the representation he does now in the eyes of the public. M2K was dissing him. The lesson: The smash 4 scene is international. People were basing their notions on US players when they should've looked abroad.

Also: Komo saved the tournament. He got a nice **** you for it from the TO's. If he isn't monetarily compensated they really should go **** themselves.
 
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Nah

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So....what exactly happened to Komorikiri?

I didn't watch the tournament....or follow the thread for it....or have a Twitter account

But it sounds like something big happened
 

DanGR

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Looking at Ally vs MKLeo I'm thinking the MU sucks for Mario. But what could Ally have done differently? If Ally actually bothered to learn some movement techniques like perfect pivoting, foxtrotting, dash pivot cancelling and doing that thing where you dash forward then return the stick to neutral and tap forward again followed by tapping backward in order to instantly dash in the other direction?

I'm thinking it could've helped him bait stuff out and would've made him less vulnerable on the ground.

On the other hand I think the matchup just seems hopeless. Mario has to make himself vulnerable to Marths offense in order to get in at all. Last game made this pretty obvious when Leo switched it up a bit. Mario also struggles to land. Ally got out of a lot bad situations by being the more clever player, I think he made the MU look more even than it is. It is also known that MKLeo does not like fighting Ally, finding his playstyle weird.
  • better movement.
  • better Marth specific combos (he baited out or waited for dolphin slash [unsuccessfully, overall] instead of going for bnb combos, which often times weren't optimized when he did go for them).
  • better movement.
  • SHAD and spotdodge use instead of shield (some situations where there's a 90% chance he'll space an aerial- not talking about in neutral).
  • did I mention better movement (0 perfect pivot use is suspect).
  • fludd use in disadvantage.
  • baiting trumps (saw very little even though Marth drops back a lot).
  • better knowledge of marth throw combo percents (so he doesnt airdodge into upsmash).
Just a few things I noticed/think.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Ally's combo optimization, movement, and ledgetraps all sucked.
Leo got away with 4 million jump aerials off the ledge. Most of the time Ally grabbed Leo at, say, 20 he'd only end up with 2 utilts instead of doing something like buffering SH Uair for longer conversions.
 

Trunks159

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For those who didn't watch, Leo used Cloud vs everyone but Mario and Shiek. (Ally and Mr. R). He may have used him in pools once or something.

He will probably only use Marth vs :4sheik::4diddy::4fox::4mario:
 

FeelMeUp

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For those who didn't watch, Leo used Cloud vs everyone but Mario and Shiek. (Ally and Mr. R). He may have used him in pools once or something.

He will probably only use Marth vs :4sheik::4diddy::4fox::4mario:
3 of which are matchups everyone traditionally thought Marth loses to.
Hm.
 

TDK

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Ally kept Jumping off the ledge vs Leo, and that's what cost him the set overall.

So....what exactly happened to Komorikiri?

I didn't watch the tournament....or follow the thread for it....or have a Twitter account

But it sounds like something big happened
For the first two sets of top 8 (ZeRo vs Dabuz and Zack vs Komo) damage ratio was set to 0.9 . It was noticed after Zack beat Komo, and the TOs blamed Komo initially and only re-did the last game instead of the entire set. Afterwards, it was revealed by multiple people that it had been that way for the entire Top 8, but they didn't re-do the entire top 8 and counted it with the 0.9 damage modifier.
 
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Hippieslayer

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  • better movement.
  • better Marth specific combos (he baited out or waited for dolphin slash [unsuccessfully, overall] instead of going for bnb combos, which often times weren't optimized when he did go for them).
  • better movement.
  • SHAD and spotdodge use instead of shield (some situations where there's a 90% chance he'll space an aerial- not talking about in neutral).
  • did I mention better movement (0 perfect pivot use is suspect).
  • fludd use in disadvantage.
  • baiting trumps (saw very little even though Marth drops back a lot).
  • better knowledge of marth throw combo percents (so he doesnt airdodge into upsmash).
Just a few things I noticed/think.
Ally can't perfect pivot. At least he said so on his stream while fighting some random doing perfect pivots "Dude that perfect pivot just got you punished, I don't know how you can bother doing that online, I can't even do that **** offline" is what I recall him saying :p

Followup question: Ally could probably have won had he optimized his Mario via practice. But Ally seems kinda lazy. Irregardless, how does optimized Mario do vs optimized Marth? IMO fundamental properties still favor Marth. It's just too hard to approach, working around Marths range has too many counters. Or?

TDK TDK : How did jumping off the ledge cost Ally the set when he got away with it most of the time? It seems to me not jumping off the ledge is a fair bit more dangerous. Seeing as tippered whatever kills and can be done on reaction. How do you know he wouldn't have died more had he been using other options?
 
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Das Koopa

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1st: MKLeo :4marth:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Ally :4mario:
3rd: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
4th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:,:4peach::4wiifit:
5th: Mr. R :4sheik:
5th: Abadango :4mewtwo:
7th: Komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
7th: Dabuz :rosalina:, :4bayonetta:
9th: Ranai :4villager:
9th: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk:
9th: ANTi :4mario:, :4cloud2:
9th: VoiD :4sheik:
13th: Larry Lurr :4fox:
13th: 9B :4bayonetta:
13th: Elegant :4luigi:
13th: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
17th: Marss :4zss:
17th: Fatality :4falcon:
17th: Nairo :4zss:, :4bowser:
17th: Chag :4bayonetta:
17th: Child :4bayonetta:
17th: MVD :4diddy:
17th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4lucina:
17th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
25th: Kameme :4megaman:, :4cloud2:
25th: Locus :4ryu:
25th: Salem :4bayonetta:
25th: Earth :4pit:
25th: Brood :4duckhunt:
25th: K9sbruce :4diddy:, :4sheik:
25th: Javi :4cloud2:, :4sheik:
25th: AeroLink :4bayonetta:
33rd: You3 :4duckhunt:
33rd: Nietono :4diddy:
33rd: JK :4bayonetta:
33rd: Dath :4robinf:
33rd: Ito :4metaknight:
33rd: DSS :4metaknight:
33rd: Tyrant :4metaknight:
33rd: Sinji :4pacman:
33rd: Shaky :4ness:, :4gaw:
33rd: SS :4villager:, :4ness:
33rd: 6WX :4sonic:
33rd: Manny :4sonic:
33rd: Zinoto :4diddy:
33rd: Raffi-X :4rob:
33rd: James :4diddy:, :4luigi:
33rd: Xzax :4fox:
49th: FOW :4ness:
49th: Raito :4duckhunt:
49th: LingLIng :4peach:
49th: Samsora :4peach:
49th: Legit :4diddy:
49th: Snoop :4yoshi:
49th: Viviff the Great :4bowser:
49th: Remzi :4zss:
49th: Jan :rosalina:, :4ryu:
49th: Nyanko :4sheik:
49th: Dyr :4diddy:
49th: Charliedaking :4fox:
49th: Mr. E :4marth:
49th: Cacogen :4sheik:
49th: DarkShad :4ryu:
49th: Ryo :4myfriends:, :4corrinf::4feroy:
 

Wintermelon43

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Zack still took Mr. R to game 5 and beat Aba & ANTi. Definitely a good look for his future.

Hopefully Komo recovers. I don't see him attending G5 though, he deleted all his tweets from the last month and didn't attend the awards ceremony. He's gone full M2K about it
I don't blame him. at all. That's probably what I would've done, really.

Imagine spending tons of money to go to a tournament, only to lose to a Bayo player that wasn't very well known, and for that to be probably frustrating matches to play, espicially with stuff that you think should be killing not killing.......... And then finding out the whole thing was on 0.9. And to make matters worse, they only let you replay the last match. And, even worse, you get destroyed. And then, you get scapegoated (Which I think means wrongly blamed?) for it. You litertatly spent a ton of money to be ripped off and scapegoated. I think he's earned the right to be upset.

And it's not just him. Think about everyone else. Captain Zack finally had his breakout tournament...... and now people are going to question it. All the time, people will just be memeing with him about 0.9. And everybody will give him hate. And Bayonetta mains already get a lot of hate.

Dabuz may have, for all we know, possibly been able to beat ZeRo, but lost because of 0.9. And he will have to live with it. ZeRo will have the vice versa.

Many other players got depressed from the tournament too. And everyone that didn't make winners top 32 were given the incorrect matches for their losers run.

Everyone that flew to the tournament had paid to waste their time.

And just to make it worse, the medals didn't even list the actual game title right. They litertatly told everyone they didn't care.

As for the viewers, they just wasted their time tortuing themselves with the streams problem, missing all those great matches to watch crappy bayo dittos, etc, all to watch a complete failure. All they gained was a new meme. And they all got hyped - for nothing. This tournament was litertatly EVO 2016; the Sequal.


I'll say right now, I can't stand going to school anymore for muitiple reasons. It's almost unbearable. The main reason why I could get through the week was thinking about that when the week was over, I could watch this amazing tournament. And what I got was this. I now feel like I wasted my entire weekend (And when I feel like this, everything gets even WORSE), and am even more depressed.

*sigh* Why does everything always seem to go wrong for me, even if it shouldn't????



Also, on a sorta unrelated note, Here's some more weird and creepy dream stuff: I remember I had a dream a while back (Probably shortly after Genesis 3, but I don't remember), where I won Genesis 4. With Kirby or Jigglypuff (I forget who). But when I went on smashboards and discord and stuff, nobody acknowledged it. Everyone gave the second place (Void) and everyone else credit, but not me. They mentioned me if people asked who won or when showing the player list for top 8 and stuff, but nobody really said anything about it. At the time, I thought it was just a random dream I had. But I now realized that it symbolized the actual tournament. Despite getting really excited and hyped for it, Genesis 4 would be a big disappointment and terrible tournament - and a complete waste of time. My brain pretty much predicted the entire tournament probably about a year before it happened.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Followup question: Ally could probably have won had he optimized his Mario via practice. But Ally seems kinda lazy. Irregardless, how does optimized Mario do vs optimized Marth? IMO fundamental properties still favor Marth. It's just too hard to approach, working around Marths range has too many counters. Or?
Hypotheticals aren't really productive (especially when it has to do with completely optimized characters fighting in neutral, whatever that looks like), but Mario has tools and ways to combat against range (walking forward, rolls, spotdodge, SHAD, whiff-punishing, sticking his normals in the space the opponent wants to be in, etc..) and marth has ways to retaliate against them. It's a huge system of RPS and seeing all the different situations and outcomes is tooooooo much to count. It's not "hopeless" for Mario.
 
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FeelMeUp

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You must be fairly new to the scene if you really do think G4 was that bad.
Nowhere near being one of the worst events out there.
 
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NotLiquid

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I don't think losing to CaptainZack is that much of a crushing defeat. The kid has consistently been making waves and is ranked 20 on the PGR already. I think losing to him specifically is the least that's on Komo's mind right now, and to think otherwise would do a huge disservice to him and the mutual respect they share as players.

That aside it's a huge bummer that G4 turned out poor but we take those Ls. Tournament growth doesn't end because of a bad egg and we've had to deal with plenty of bad eggs.
 
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Dre89

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Don't get why people are bashing on DLC when Bayo is still the best character in the game.

I wouldn't have an issue with all her moves comboing into each other if they didn't also make her the safest character in the game.
 

ARISTOS

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I don't blame him. at all. That's probably what I would've done, really.

Imagine spending tons of money to go to a tournament, only to lose to a Bayo player that wasn't very well known, and for that to be probably frustrating matches to play, espicially with stuff that you think should be killing not killing.......... And then finding out the whole thing was on 0.9. And to make matters worse, they only let you replay the last match. And, even worse, you get destroyed. And then, you get scapegoated (Which I think means wrongly blamed?) for it. You litertatly spent a ton of money to be ripped off and scapegoated. I think he's earned the right to be upset.

And it's not just him. Think about everyone else. Captain Zack finally had his breakout tournament...... and now people are going to question it. All the time, people will just be memeing with him about 0.9. And everybody will give him hate. And Bayonetta mains already get a lot of hate.

Dabuz may have, for all we know, possibly been able to beat ZeRo, but lost because of 0.9. And he will have to live with it. ZeRo will have the vice versa.

Many other players got depressed from the tournament too. And everyone that didn't make winners top 32 were given the incorrect matches for their losers run.

Everyone that flew to the tournament had paid to waste their time.

And just to make it worse, the medals didn't even list the actual game title right. They litertatly told everyone they didn't care.

As for the viewers, they just wasted their time tortuing themselves with the streams problem, missing all those great matches to watch crappy bayo dittos, etc, all to watch a complete failure. All they gained was a new meme. And they all got hyped - for nothing. This tournament was litertatly EVO 2016; the Sequal.


I'll say right now, I can't stand going to school anymore for muitiple reasons. It's almost unbearable. The main reason why I could get through the week was thinking about that when the week was over, I could watch this amazing tournament. And what I got was this. I now feel like I wasted my entire weekend (And when I feel like this, everything gets even WORSE), and am even more depressed.

*sigh* Why does everything always seem to go wrong for me, even if it shouldn't????



Also, on a sorta unrelated note, Here's some more weird and creepy dream stuff: I remember I had a dream a while back (Probably shortly after Genesis 3, but I don't remember), where I won Genesis 4. With Kirby or Jigglypuff (I forget who). But when I went on smashboards and discord and stuff, nobody acknowledged it. Everyone gave the second place (Void) and everyone else credit, but not me. They mentioned me if people asked who won or when showing the player list for top 8 and stuff, but nobody really said anything about it. At the time, I thought it was just a random dream I had. But I now realized that it symbolized the actual tournament. Despite getting really excited and hyped for it, Genesis 4 would be a big disappointment and terrible tournament - and a complete waste of time. My brain pretty much predicted the entire tournament probably about a year before it happened.
Chill.

Some of the stuff was out of their control (internet/spotty stream). Some of it, like the knockback .9, was in their control. It sucks that this happened but Bear and co. have generally been very good as so it's important to learn from the mistakes made today and keep at it.

This is a reminder that a lot of these people do this for not much money/free so it might not always go off without a hitch.

Don't get why people are bashing on DLC when Bayo is still the best character in the game.

I wouldn't have an issue with all her moves comboing into each other if they didn't also make her the safest character in the game.
There are many people in this thread that would disagree with you
 
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YerTheBestAROUND

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So....what exactly happened to Komorikiri?

I didn't watch the tournament....or follow the thread for it....or have a Twitter account

But it sounds like something big happened
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr32FdDZq_M

Watch the last 10-15 minutes or so.

He will probably only use Marth vs :4sheik::4diddy::4fox::4mario:
Marth is his main and his favorite character so I kinda doubt that however, when we look at the rest of the top 32, I see no reason for him to have not gone Cloud against anyone that didn't play Bayonetta or Luigi (but he went Cloud against Elegant anyway soooo). I have no idea what Leo's bracket through out top 32 was like, but Cloud is definitely better than Marth vs Villager, Duck Hunt, Mewtwo, and Ryu. Even if the match up isn't bad for Marth, he has an incredible Cloud, there isn't much of a reason for him to not use Cloud.
 

NairWizard

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Bit off-topic but seems important:

I'll say right now, I can't stand going to school anymore for muitiple reasons. It's almost unbearable. The main reason why I could get through the week was thinking about that when the week was over, I could watch this amazing tournament. And what I got was this. I now feel like I wasted my entire weekend (And when I feel like this, everything gets even WORSE), and am even more depressed.

*sigh* Why does everything always seem to go wrong for me, even if it shouldn't????
Take a step back here and get some perspective. I don't know what you're going through and you seem pretty young, but I wanted to take the time out to say to you that life is a hell of a lot deeper than a video game tournament, no matter how much that video game tournament means to you in the moment. Every few years you'll look back on your life and think "Wow, I've gone through some tough ****" and then a few years later the tough **** of the previous few years will seem irrelevant compared to the even-tougher **** that you just freshly went through.

You'll be alright, don't worry. Things won't get any easier, but people do get stronger. Chin up.
 

Hippieslayer

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Hypotheticals aren't really productive (especially when it has to do with completely optimized characters fighting in neutral, whatever that looks like), but Mario has tools and ways to combat against range (walking forward, rolls, spotdodge, SHAD, whiff-punishing, sticking his normals in the space the opponent wants to be in, etc..) and marth has ways to retaliate against them. It's a huge system of RPS and seeing all the different situations and outcomes is tooooooo much to count. It's not "hopeless" for Mario.
Maybe hypotheticals aren't productive on their own, but this isn't pure hypothesis, it's just taking a leap from what actually went down at g4 and reimagining it under different circumstances. I think that in the end all of Mario's ways to combat range rely on stage control, because they can all be beaten via some form of retreating. They can be beaten less reliably in other ways. The problem being that Marth can cover several of Mario's ways of approaching with few countermeasures. How is the Mario player supposed to not get predictable when it doesn't really matter if he uses his entire arsenal of approaches to mix things up since Marth doesn't need to counter each and every one of them? SHAD, spotdodge and roll'ins can all be beaten via doing nothing and then reacting. All of Marios normals can be beaten by beating them with a longer ranged attack. Any form of walking or running forwards can be beaten by timing a dash to some attack at the right moment. And whiff punishing a Marth who is retreating as he throws out his attacks is hard as hell. It seems to me Mario needs stage control to get things done and that without it he loses hard since he has to get predictable. His options are poor unless Marth is running out of space behind him.
 

DanGR

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Ally can't perfect pivot. At least he said so on his stream while fighting some random doing perfect pivots "Dude that perfect pivot just got you punished, I don't know how you can bother doing that online, I can't even do that **** offline" is what I recall him saying :p

Followup question: Ally could probably have won had he optimized his Mario via practice. But Ally seems kinda lazy. Irregardless, how does optimized Mario do vs optimized Marth? IMO fundamental properties still favor Marth. It's just too hard to approach, working around Marths range has too many counters. Or?

TDK TDK : How did jumping off the ledge cost Ally the set when he got away with it most of the time? It seems to me not jumping off the ledge is a fair bit more dangerous. Seeing as tippered whatever kills and can be done on reaction. How do you know he wouldn't have died more had he been using other options?
I'd venture to say it favors Marth regardless, too, but who really knows man.

I think perfect pivot forward->shield provides Mario with a fantastic, defensive OoS tool in OoS bair. I saw at least a few situations where PP forward->shield->jump cancel upsmash OoS would have been able to net kills on block on some Marth bair spacings- aerials specifically used in situations where dash->shield wasn't quick enough. Pivot->sliding shield/spotdodge is something I don't see players use much, but would probably have some practical use in this matchup. I use it fairly liberally in Rosa vs Bayo/Cloud to fish for shieldgrabs on some aerials I wouldn't otherwise be able to punish. I also suspect there's some room for growth against Marth using shield->drop shield->shield again to fish for powershields. Maybe in between jab1->2, or for individual sideb hits. You know MKLeo is waiting between jab1 and 2 to look for hit confirm opportunities. Shielddrop->turn around->powershield->jump cancel upsmash OoS? idk

Not to mention there's room for growth in general with all kinds of option selects people are too lazy to utilize. I find a lot of the ones I've explored myself are defensive in nature.
 
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Yonder

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Of note, Luigi at 13th solo is the highest placing "not top tier" charater at Genesis. And he barely lost his games that he did. Fantastic work by Elegant. This was actually a really balanced showing for all the relevant characters in the game. Pretty much everyone had one character placing high. Bayo and Cloud are the biggest winners in usage in the upper echelon though.

Especially Cloud, 5 top 9 players using him? That's insane. Even if results varied with him. This guy is THE pocket character in the game no question. I guess all the hoopla about his bad recovery hasn't been exploitable enough yet.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Maybe hypotheticals aren't productive on their own, but this isn't pure hypothesis, it's just taking a leap from what actually went down at g4 and reimagining it under different circumstances. I think that in the end all of Mario's ways to combat range rely on stage control, because they can all be beaten via some form of retreating. They can be beaten less reliably in other ways. The problem being that Marth can cover several of Mario's ways of approaching with few countermeasures. How is the Mario player supposed to not get predictable when it doesn't really matter if he uses his entire arsenal of approaches to mix things up since Marth doesn't need to counter each and every one of them? SHAD, spotdodge and roll'ins can all be beaten via doing nothing and then reacting. All of Marios normals can be beaten by beating them with a longer ranged attack. Any form of walking or running forwards can be beaten by timing a dash to some attack at the right moment. And whiff punishing a Marth who is retreating as he throws out his attacks is hard as hell. It seems to me Mario needs stage control to get things done and that without it he loses hard since he has to get predictable. His options are poor unless Marth is running out of space behind him.
Rolls beats marths attack, walking beats doing nothing or retreating, and timing an attack to it loses to shield (and marth can't continue to pressure either if he's safe. So Mario can just sit and wait for the moment to move away). If Mario throws out an attack early to stuff marth's, that works too. A retreating marth most definitely loses to walking.

Marth can't counter all of those at once. And then you take into account situational SHADs and stuff and little nuances like PP shield or w/e, and it's easy to see that Mario isn't lolhardcountered here. And we haven't even discussed FLUDD or fireball.
 

Aaron1997

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https://twitter.com/komorikiri_SSCF/status/823366507648299008

Komo is taking a Break. Google Translate:

"I do not dislike smash bros but I want to play. However, now I do not feel fun even if I play it, I feel very afraid to play. So, I do not know how long it will be, but I decided to take a break for a while.
After that I decide what to do." "However, I think that it is necessary to relate to Smash to dispel this feeling, so I think that I will be involved in some form.
I am sorry I made you worry"

G4 TO's should be ashamed of them selfs. The Top level:4cloud::4sonic: Rep (especially :4sonic:) is going to take a Hit
 
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blackghost

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zach, you3 (and all the dhd), and elegant are all winners at this event. even if you want to question zach win (which really shouldnt happen he was in control most of that set) that still leaves the absolute bodybag that chang is still in. if you want to learn how to fight bayo well go watch that set zach destroyed it. zach showed an avility to convert of almost anything, a smart use of witch time, and a complete utilization of bayonetta and her kit. he used every move in her kit on stream at least once and used ut all effectively. best bayo?
you3 had a lot of doubters including me. i was very impressed while duck hunt isnt a high tier hes viable and a mid tier for sure. he just showed outside japan most ppayers didnt understand what they shoulf be doing. dhd is closer to pacman than any one else and should be played like it.
elegant i think he just demonstrated a new losing mu for bayo. and his overall performance was crisp.
and of course shoutouts to mkleo on another great performance
 

Hippieslayer

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Rolls beats marths attack, walking beats doing nothing or retreating, and timing an attack to it loses to shield (and marth can't continue to pressure either if he's safe. So Mario can just sit and wait for the moment to move away). If Mario throws out an attack early to stuff marth's, that works too. A retreating marth most definitely loses to walking.

Marth can't counter all of those at once. And then you take into account situational SHADs and stuff and little nuances like PP shield or w/e, and it's easy to see that Mario isn't lolhardcountered here. And we haven't even discussed FLUDD or fireball.
Rolls are a limited resource due to how punishable they are tho. And they don't necessarily beat Marths attack. Not if Marth is moving forwards or backwards while attacking. I'd say Marth can pressure while being safe by simply staying at the right distance, a distance from which he has time to react to what Mario is doing and vice versa. In that situation he's applying pressure because the available options favor him. He's not safe, but he is safer. And walking only beats retreating Marth once he runs out of space to retreat I think. And what if Marth starts dash grabbing Mario as Mario is trying to bait Marth into doing something punishable? Mario has to get close enough to be susceptible to counterattacks in order to punish Marths crap.

I don't think fireball really matters much. FLUDD does tho, because it gives Mario stage control.

It isn't a lolhardcounter, but it seems like a pretty bad matchup to me. But I dunno. That's why I'm airing my thoughts here :p
 

TDK

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https://twitter.com/komorikiri_SSCF/status/823366507648299008

Komo is taking a Break. Google Translate:

"I do not dislike smash bros but I want to play. However, now I do not feel fun even if I play it, I feel very afraid to play. So, I do not know how long it will be, but I decided to take a break for a while.
After that I decide what to do." "However, I think that it is necessary to relate to Smash to dispel this feeling, so I think that I will be involved in some form.
I am sorry I made you worry"

G4 TO's should be ashamed of them selfs. The Top level:4cloud::4sonic: Rep (especially :4sonic:) is going to take a Hit
Komo did mention something about Frostbite though, I think he wants to be back for that?
 

Aaron1997

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Also to salvage some good things about this god forsaken event, here are the winners and losers of G4

Big winners
:4duckhunt: Takes A set from the best player in the world and took The winner of the event to game 3 last stock. No way a low tier can do that, match-up inexperience or not.
:4bayonetta: So many of these in top 32 also 4th Is great to.
:4luigi:Top 16 and Takes a set off the best Bayo (I guess?)

Small winners
:4pacman:Getting 33rd solo is impressive for a Character who some people think is Bottom 3
:4rob:Did better then expected, 33rd, Game 3 last stock, last hit vs the winner of the event.
:4dedede:Beat the #1/#2 :4metaknight: which is supposed to be one of his worst match-ups

Losers
:4corrinf:Where was this character at?
:4fox: Only 1 in top 32 and he lost in Round 1 pools. I feel he's a tick overrated. If he's top 5, why is there only 1 Fox doing well in Majors?
:4zss: Pretty disappointing Event for Her. Highest placing Zss was 17th. The best player went mostly Bowser in his match's on stream
 
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Baby_Sneak

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Rolls are a limited resource due to how punishable they are tho. And they don't necessarily beat Marths attack. Not if Marth is moving forwards or backwards while attacking. I'd say Marth can pressure while being safe by simply staying at the right distance, a distance from which he has time to react to what Mario is doing and vice versa. In that situation he's applying pressure because the available options favor him. He's not safe, but he is safer. And walking only beats retreating Marth once he runs out of space to retreat I think. And what if Marth starts dash grabbing Mario as Mario is trying to bait Marth into doing something punishable? Mario has to get close enough to be susceptible to counterattacks in order to punish Marths crap.

I don't think fireball really matters much. FLUDD does tho, because it gives Mario stage control.

It isn't a lolhardcounter, but it seems like a pretty bad matchup to me. But I dunno. That's why I'm airing my thoughts here :p
If marth is approaching, he's putting himself in danger of getting shieldgrabbed. If he goes backwards, walking wins (marth can't do anything about it and he throws himself closer to the ledge/corner).

Marth being at a distance to react to Mario while hitting his shield safely is not only finicky, but highly unlikely. He's still - on block, which allows Mario to retreat if he needs to.

And marth dash grabbing Mario depends on the situation heavily. And Mario doesn't necessarily need to get close to marth to punish, he could just bring marth to him.

And fireballs can be an annoyance that adds up to 20% in damage when not diligent.
 

L9999

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You must be fairly new to the scene if you really do think G4 was that bad.
Nowhere near being one of the worst events out there.
Yes, but in this day and age it is unacceptable and quite insulting.

Also to salvage some good things about this god forsaken event, here are the winners and losers of G4

Big winners
:4marth:won the tourney
Marth can't be atributted that, MK Leo played 96% Cloud.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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Also to salvage some good things about this god forsaken event, here are the winners and losers of G4

Big winners
:4duckhunt: Takes A set from the best player in the world and took The winner of the event to game 3 last stock. No way a low tier can do that, match-up inexperience or not.
:4marth:won the tourney
:4bayonetta: So many of these in top 32 also 4th Is great to.
:4luigi:Top 16 and Takes a set off the best Bayo (I guess?)

Small winners
:4pacman:Getting 33rd solo is impressive for a Character who some people think is Bottom 3
:4rob:Did better then expected, 33rd, Game 3 last stock, last hit vs the winner of the event.
:4dedede:Beat the #1/#2 :4metaknight: which is supposed to be one of his worst match-ups

Losers
:4corrinf:Where was this character at?
:4fox: Only 1 in top 32 and he lost in Round 1 pools. I feel he's a tick overrated. If he's top 5, why is there only 1 Fox doing well in Majors?
:4zss: Pretty disappointing Event for Her. Highest placing Zss was 17th. The best player went mostly Bowser in his match's on stream
Leo played mostly Cloud.
 

TDK

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:4megaman: and :4pit: could be counted as smaller losers too. Only barely got 25th and only one of them, similar to your reasoning from Larry but even worse for MM/Pit.
 
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ARGHETH

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Mar 9, 2015
Messages
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Also to salvage some good things about this god forsaken event, here are the winners and losers of G4

Big winners
:4duckhunt: Takes A set from the best player in the world and took The winner of the event to game 3 last stock. No way a low tier can do that, match-up inexperience or not.
Prince Ramen beat Zero at ceo though...
Losers
:4corrinf:Where was this character at?
Not in attendence, mostly, Ryuga and Cosmos were absent. Ryo got 49th and Frozen got 65th.
 
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DanGR

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:4dedede:Beat the #1/#2 :4metaknight: which is supposed to be one of his worst match-ups
It's worth mentioning Big D beat his MK with D3 in just 1 game of the set.

As I heard, it was..
Game 1: D3 (w) vs MK (l)
Game 2: D3 (l) vs Diddy (w)
Game 3: Mario (w) vs Diddy (l)

I can't definitively confirm these results, btw.
 
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Rizen

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Real talk (whatever that means), how much did the .9 modifier affect the top 8? I know some combos are very % specific but would the results have been different? I didn't see the event :/
 

ZeldaMaster

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Marth is top 3.

This tournament proves that ZeRo Saga was not a fluke.

Those who doubt me can catch me next time when Marth wins ANOTHER major.
 

ARGHETH

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Messages
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Marth is top 3.

This tournament proves that ZeRo Saga was not a fluke.

Those who doubt me can catch me next time when Marth wins ANOTHER major.
Dude, Leo used Cloud for most of his matches. Did he use Marth at all prior to top 8?
 
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