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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Luigi player

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The first big 2 Stock tournament has happened in germany and there have been huge upsets.
How can you endure this ****ty format? :/
I'm wondering this too. It's just screaming inconsistency and is super stressful the whole match (especially with smash4 shenanigans like super early kills and rage-stuff; you can't even create a big enough lead to make these factors less influencing), and you're not even playing against your opponent long enough to have fun. You start the match, have a stressful time and then it's suddenly over. I really don't see how anyone has fun with this, but I guess you can if it's the only thing you're used to.
 

|RK|

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I'm wondering this too. It's just screaming inconsistency and is super stressful the whole match (especially with smash4 shenanigans like super early kills and rage-stuff; you can't even create a big enough lead to make these factors less influencing), and you're not even playing against your opponent long enough to have fun. You start the match, have a stressful time and then it's suddenly over. I really don't see how anyone has fun with this, but I guess you can if it's the only thing you're used to.
Didn't someone establish the amount of upsets in a two-stock format were negligible, and that there are still upsets in three-stock?

I think it could be the opposite, too - with two-stock, you'll always feel like you could have done more if you just had one more stock (regardless of if that's true or not). Unless we find a way to do a real, scientific test, I don't think two-stock is going anywhere - especially since it's the preferred format of many viewers.
 

wedl!!

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I'm sure most of you guys just watched this but Zinoto just beat Salem in 14 games from WF to GF Set 2. Zinoto may have won but holy **** between this and 6-1ing Ally, Salem really showcases just how broken (not overtuned—like second coming of Brawl MK broken) Bayonetta is.

Of course, we saw the regular Bayo nonsense: recovering from the bottom corner of BF, killing at obscenely early percents off the top and the side, 70% witch time kills, etc. But towards the end of the set, Salem was down by a good margin and so he proceeded to platform camp on battlefield, using Bayo's special moves to simultaneously airstall and safely poke at Zinoto's shield with an unpunishable, potential 30%-death combo starter. He almost pulled it off and won the set and I believe that he employed this same strategy against Ally a few days ago to take those two dominant sets. I can't imagine there being much that any character in this game—aside from those with large, disjointed aerials like Rosa, Cloud, and Marth—can do against this strategy. And even then, they're still susceptible to getting witch timed and dying to a fully charged up smash at 70.

This character is so blatantly broken and far and away the best character that it hurts to see so many people try to come up with reasons to excuse these embarrassingly irresponsible design choices. I'm fairly convinced that she loses no matchups (Rosalina being the only asterisk but that's probably just Dabuz being good) and that her evens don't stetch far beyond the likes of Diddy, Rosa, and maybe Sheik. She really doesn't have any holes in her game plan and her supposed "weaknesses" that we hear time and time again usually come down to X top tier doing it better.
Thank you for the hyperbole, Sir Jjab430. You've really shown me how broken vacuums are.

(Serious: Bayonetta is stupid and pretty poorly designed within the context of Smash but saying she's far and away the best character is really, really, really silly.)
 

DunnoBro

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Honestly with platform camping, WT looks almost as degenerate as the old dABK neutral. However, she really doesn't fit the same criteria for broken that brawl mk or prepatch diddy met. Nothing she's doing is inherently an issue, it's all just a little too rewarding while way too safe.

But, as stated it does seem her only real vulnerability is disjoints, which are in short supply across the cast.
 

Illusion.

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Illusion.

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Trela DQ'd himself after losing to Espy, guess he just wasn't feeling like himself.
 

jet56

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Final destination 11 (82 entrants):https://smash.gg/tournament/final-destination-11-1/events/wii-u-singles/standings

1st: Ito :4metaknight:
2nd: Elegant :4luigi:
3rd: Tyrant :4metaknight::4sheik::rosalina:
4th: K9 :4diddy::4sheik:
5th: Saiki :4sheik:
5th: BestNess :4ness:
7th: SS :4ness::4villager:
7th: Stroder :4greninja::4cloud2::4zss:
9th: Luhtie :4zss:
9th: Calculus :4bayonetta2:
9th: Apachai :4ryu:
9th: Skylar :4gaw:
13th: Senpai :4littlemac:
13th: Kami :4mewtwo:
13th: Funkermonster :4megaman:
13th: Googs :4olimar:

Little mini regional with players from AZ, Utah, and Socal in attendence. might be worth a look or data entry.
 

ARGHETH

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Would Trela's results improve or get worse if he switched back to :4shulk: :4charizard: :4miisword: ?
Much worse. Even discounting the tier difference, Trela's probably very out of practice with them, meaning he'll have a big dip in results until he maybe gets the same results.
Also, Trela's results got significantly better after he picked up Ryu.
 
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Das Koopa

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Stuff I'm using for this weekend:

-Sumabato 14 (Japan)
-Eclipse 2 (Norway)
-Come to Papa 2 (Florida)
-Double Barreled (Kentucky)
-Down to Smash (Alabama)
-Impact 2 (Texas)
-Final Destination 11 (Arizona)
-Rebirth IX (Michigan)

Final destination 11 (82 entrants):https://smash.gg/tournament/final-destination-11-1/events/wii-u-singles/standings

1st: Ito :4metaknight:
2nd: Elegant :4luigi:
3rd: Tyrant :4metaknight::4sheik::rosalina:
4th: K9 :4diddy::4sheik:
5th: Saiki :4sheik:
5th: BestNess :4ness:
7th: SS :4ness::4villager:
7th: Stroder :4greninja::4cloud2::4zss:
9th: Luhtie :4zss:
9th: Calculus :4bayonetta2:
9th: Apachai :4ryu:
9th: Skylar :4gaw:
13th: Senpai :4littlemac:
13th: Kami :4mewtwo:
13th: Funkermonster :4megaman:
13th: Googs :4olimar:

Little mini regional with players from AZ, Utah, and Socal in attendence. might be worth a look or data entry.
Thanks, I was about to look into the characters used for this.
 
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Routa

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Would Trela's results improve or get worse if he switched back to :4shulk: :4charizard: :4miisword: ?
Picking up a Swordspider in competitive play is like shooting your left feet right before competing in a 100m dash (or what it is called) against Usain Bolt. You should avoid touching Swordspider if you want to place well.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Trela's biggest problem is that he has a bit of a confidence issue.

He lets losses affect his play and let's them affect his play A LOT.

Once he's able to harden up a bit I think his play will improve.

Would Trela's results improve or get worse if he switched back to :4shulk: :4charizard: :4miisword: ?
He should stick to :4ryu: as a main.

That said, :4charizard::4shulk: aren't bad picks for secondaries or pockets. If :4ryu: just isn't cutting it, those two might as their matchup spreads are fairly different.

I have no idea about :4miisword: though. There's the "WTF do I do" factor, but I don't know the matchups for :4miisword:.

We really need a :4miisword: revolution. Miis are criminally underutilized and unknown.
 
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jet56

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Stuff I'm using for this weekend:

-Sumabato 14 (Japan)
-Eclipse 2 (Norway)
-Come to Papa 2 (Florida)
-Double Barreled (Kentucky)
-Down to Smash (Alabama)
-Impact 2 (Texas)
-Final Destination 11 (Arizona)
-Rebirth IX (Michigan)



Thanks, I was about to look into the characters used for this.
Do what i can. You do a lot in terms of data collecting, so i'll help where needed :D
Trela's biggest problem is that he has a bit of a confidence issue.

He lets losses affect his play and let's them affect his play A LOT.

Once he's able to harden up a bit I think his play will improve.


He should stick to :4ryu: as a main.

That said, :4charizard::4shulk: aren't bad picks for secondaries or pockets. If :4ryu: just isn't cutting it, those two might as their matchup spreads are fairly different.

I have no idea about :4miisword: though. There's the "WTF do I do" factor, but I don't know the matchups for :4miisword:.

We really need a :4miisword: revolution. Miis are criminally underutilized and unknown.
Ryu suffers inherently the inability to approach defensive characters in neutral. He's very Bait and punish heavy, and struggles against characters that efficiently wall him out and/or can outmaneuver him a great deal. Honestly, i don't think :4charizard::4shulk: really covers his bad MU's all that well.
 

Tizio Random

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I'm late to the party but I want to share my opinion on the 2-stock vs 3-stock debate as yesterday here in Italy we played our first 3-stock tourney in a long time (early 2015 I suppose). I will talk about it from a player perspective, not a viewer one, not only because I think they always should have priority but also because I don't think this is the best place to discuss about it.

I was skeptical at first but imho this format allows for different approaches with your opponent. I felt I could experiment various ways and tricks to find the right decisions against my foe for the first time without being punished just for studying him. I was down 0-1 in two sets in a row but I won 2-1 at last because I adapt to my opponent strategy and I'm convinced it would have been almost impossible in a 2-stock format. Also, it was nice to not lose my first game in bracket just because I missinput my recovery at 20% although I dominated throughout the whole time.
One last thing I noticed was that the pace of matches were different. People were less conservative during the whole thing simply because silly mistake that are bound to happen sometimes are not the deciding factors for a match, making some parts really exciting. They tried to slow things down when last stock obviously but, purely by mathematical reasons, that is 1/3 of the match compared to 1/2 for 2-stock. This is quite obvious but if you have more possibilities to try out something you will probably just do it for the sake of it. If you can try a really hard test 2 times you will be hesitant to do it everytime it is occurring. But with 3 chances? Will you maaaaybe try just one time to see how it goes? :)
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Ryu suffers inherently the inability to approach defensive characters in neutral. He's very Bait and punish heavy, and struggles against characters that efficiently wall him out and/or can outmaneuver him a great deal.
Like :4cloud: :rosalina:right?

:4charizard: has a bit a niche in dealing with :4cloud: well.

Moreover doesn't :4shulk: has a nice matchup against :rosalina:? I remember hearing that somewhere.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Charizards has a few niche matchups

Plumbers in general aren't a problem, swordsman are generally pretty even, other super heavies are pretty good for him, and characters who can't force an approach are always a good thing. Oh and by some coincidence he does good against or he Pokemon
 

Locke 06

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Ryu suffers inherently the inability to approach defensive characters in neutral. He's very Bait and punish heavy, and struggles against characters that efficiently wall him out and/or can outmaneuver him a great deal. Honestly, i don't think :4charizard::4shulk: really covers his bad MU's all that well.
Except Ryu has some of the best jump ins in all of Smash along with lingering hitboxes to deal with projectiles. Also, his crossups are sooo good if Ryu's start mastering turnaround jab/dtilt/uptilts after a crossup. Crossup BAir on big bodies>dtilt is so free in terms of shield pressure if you don't get anti-air'd.

Approaching zoners can be tough, but it's not like Ryu doesn't get rewarded for his commital jumps. And if the Ryu has a good ground game, it makes his jumps scarier. He can approach better than most give him credit for.
 

Konneh

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The first big 2 Stock tournament has happened in germany and there have been huge upsets.
How can you endure this ****ty format? :/
What upsets?

I wasn't there, so I'm going to look over the challonge bracket.

Jaller > Eddy + Narayan > Eddy:
Eddy looked weak this entire bracket. It's an upset if he loses once, if he already gives a game away to Ganis that gives me the impression that Eddy in general is shaky, and pretty much every German player knows about Eddys inconsistencies. It's time to accept that the new school of Smash4 players in Germany is catching up to the oldschool brawlers.
I'd totally accept what you said if Eddy never placed 13th at tournaments before, but he did place 13th at AGON: Triggered, losing to Euk and Tay, or 7th at Battalion (super unstacked), losing to Schligger and Yoh. Eddy has proven far beyond any reasonable doubt that he is not untouchable regardless of stock count and especially Narayan is a player who trains really hard and fails to receive any kind of recognition from the higher ranks, but he's taken down a lot of names before.

Similar thing applies to Kunai > Longo.
Just looking at the bracket indicates to me that Kunai played incredibly well. Not only did he take games off of Light and Prodigy who went on to place 1st and 3rd, he was actually the one who knocked Prodigy (3rd place in the tournament) into losers early in the bracket.
Losing 2-0 to wusi - I would really like to see what characters Longo played here, but he used to have huge issues against Fox players and I wouldn't call the loss to another PR'd player with a terrible matchup an upset.
I'll admit that Longos loss to Kunai is the closest to what we could consider an upset, but Longo has also proven to not be untouchable in a three stock format. The loss against Wusi is not an upset if we look at their match history, and Kunai just seemed on fire that day.

And last but not least, you, Yikarur:
Losing against Sima, then giving Jaytec a game, then giving Hardys a game, finally losing out to Prodigy who then placed third in the tournament. Hardly feel like this is an upset, I'd rather have to point at you not doing well in the tournament in general. It's probably the dickest of **** moves, but you even lost to me at Smashhausen, and I'm the worst player I know. Literally. Picked a never-even-once practiced pocket Cloud and beat your Yoshi, then your Cloud in a three stock format. You went on to complain about pocket Cloud in this thread for three or four weeks after that...

I literally fail to see how these upsets can be traced back to two stock and I can't find any more upsets in the SPEEX bracket that played out yesterday.
Of course the meta will shift if you change the stock count and some playstyles will be favorised over other playstyles. Or maybe hardened veterans who have a lot of mental duress and endurance will not be able to make use of that mental duress since the tournemant requires less of it. Those things can and will happen, if you don't like it, you don't have to accept it; continue running 3 stock tournaments like the German ruleset allows (at the point of this post, actually, the German ruleset ENFORCES 3 stocks) and write up posts about how you don't like the meta shifts and argue by picking out and analysing matches and telling us which sets would have played out differently in 3 stock, and why exactly that would be the case.

Personally as a player, I'm more relaxed and "having fun" in three stock formats; that is because in brackets I become nervous and am more likely to try to force a situation onto my opponent instead of playing it out slowly. However, that is a hurdle that I have originally started playing competitive games to overcome. Coming out on top of the opponent in a high pressure environment that doesn't allow you to make mistakes and forces you to focus, concentrate and never let go of that mental state? That sounds like a competitive environment, and that's the game I actually want to play. Is that more achievable in two stock or in three stock? I don't know. The argument presented by Luigi_player points to two.

I also want to make a point towards you just posting that here without any analysis. The German Smash4 scene is difficult to know and review from an outsider's standpoint right now. For the longest time there have been no Power Rankings for Germany (we only got one for the top10 this month) and for a very long time, there were no streams either. Liva only started streaming Smash4 more intensively around April-May 2016 - when AGON had its first GGs stream, that's when most big tournaments also started being streamed in high quality. Before that, there was maybe one or two tournaments streamed every 3 months. For an outsider to recognize these names - Narayan, Schligger, Yoh - it would take a lot of effort or coincidence (i.e. being a Robin+Ike player and recognizing those players who rep their mains).
That's why I feel it's very important for you as a "representant" of the German scene here to more objectively analyse tournament results if you're trying to use them to make a statement about rulesets, because in some way I feel like you are our ambassador in this forum.

While I always enjoy being around you and like you as a person, I will try to counterbalance these statements about the German scene in the future and post more analysis if German results are being used as an argument, and I hope you will not take it personally.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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Honestly with platform camping, WT looks almost as degenerate as the old dABK neutral. However, she really doesn't fit the same criteria for broken that brawl mk or prepatch diddy met. Nothing she's doing is inherently an issue, it's all just a little too rewarding while way too safe.

But, as stated it does seem her only real vulnerability is disjoints, which are in short supply across the cast.
In regards to Bayonetta and her potential weaknesses, I feel as though G&W is probably one of the best characters that can exploit most of them.

1) Disjoints.

His disjointed aerials are pretty obvoius, namely Bair, which helps him contest Bayonetta's own long-ranged aerials. They also have a very slight additional safety net against WT in that Nair, Bair, Uair, and to a degree Dair deal multiple hits...though admittedly this doesn't matter all that much anyways, since WT has excessive invincibility frames after a successful WT. However, the REAL winner here is Dtilt. Dtilt can punish Bayonetta's Side B pretty easily, and because of G&W's small size and great ducking ability, it also doesn't care for Bullet Climax at all either. It can also beat Bayonetta's Dtilt, Jab, Ftilt, and other options as well. Though he has to be very careful, since a successful shield or WT can be very bad news for G&W in general, due to the high endlag he has on most of his attacks. But if he plays cautiously, only attacking when he really needs to (bait & punish), he can actually contest Bayonetta in most situations, despite his flaws in frame data. He can probably do a decent job at reverse camping her if he has the percent/stock lead, since his mobility is also pretty good, especially when he is under platforms like on Battlefield.

2) Grabs.

The other huge weakness Bayonetta has is against grabs, since they bypass WT shenanigans. And thankfully, G&W has the advantage of a good grab combo thanks to Dthrow, too. This allows him a safe and effective way to rack up damage against Bayonetta, and since Bayonetta has one of the faster falling speeds in the game, without it being TOO fast, this means that his grab combos are more effective against her. He can even use Uthrow + Up B sometimes to catch her at earlier percents, though at mid-high percents his Dthrow can lead to combo and KO opportunities against her. Especially when he has rage. And thanks to his low shorthop and good mobility, he has an effective tomohawk grabbing strategy as well.

3) Dash Attack.

G&W also has an excellent Dash attack to use against Bayonetta, since it comes out fairly quickly and allows him to stay low to the ground. Like Dtilt, it can beat Bayonetta's Side B (and Neutral B), though it also has the chance of trading as well. It can also either beat or at least trade with Bayonetta's other ground options as well. However, like Dtilt and most of G&W's kit, it is still very susceptable to shielding and WT, and he will get punished extremely hard for it. So again, G&W should play this matchup with great patience. On the plus side, it does have a lingering hitbox and deals a solid 10% damage. A solid burst mobility option.

4) Neutral B...?

I don't really know how useful this move will truly be against Bayonetta, but it seems to help a little bit. He has to be careful of WT shenanigans, grounded Side B, and grab approaches, though this move can potentially serve as a way to help him contest Bayonetta's aerials and aerial side B in certain situations. It could lead to some traps and followups, though I wouldn't rely on it too much due to it being slow and random, and especially because Bayonetta is such a dangerous and tricky opponent to deal with. Oh, and he gets decent distance off of it when wavebouncing, which could sometimes be useful.

5) Low weight?

G&W's low weight could help him against Bayonetta's combos a little bit in contrast to other characters. Maybe not by much, but every little bit counts. It does make him weaker to hard punishes when Bayonetta uses WT, however. idk if G&W's weight would be a good thing against Bayonetta or not, though it could be?

6) Multi-hitting attacks.

Mostly useful for dealing with Bat Within. Doesn't always catch it, though they can, which certainly helps. Also helps vs airdodging.

7) Mobility.

Not the best mobility in the game, but still pretty good, which allows him to approach or run away with greater ease.

8) Up B.

Sometimes useful for combos or for catching Bayonetta in the air. However, one important aspect of this move in this particular MU is its ability to potentially kill Bayonetta during her aerial combos, as demonstrated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG4iyH1Y4hY


Those are the strengths he has against her. As for weaknesses:

- Very slow FAF on most attacks. Slow landing lag, as well.
- Slower startup lag on attacks also put a damper on things, too.
- Trouble killing besides rage Dtilt/Ftilt/Bair or a lucky Fair/Uair/etc.
- Affected by stale moves due to relying on Dtilt/Bair in this matchup.
- Has to use fullhops and FHADs to make use of his aerials sometimes.
- Bucket doesn't work on projectiles and has more limited use here.
- Light weight + WT can spell immenate doom for G&W.
- Can't autosnap the ledge with Up B if too close to it.


Overall, G&W might not exactly beat Bayonetta, but at least I think that he could go even with her so long as he doesn't get overzealous and respects Bayonetta's options. With a bait & punish/hit & run style of play, he could be pretty effective against her. The MU is harder without platforms, though there is a much higher chance of cheese on platform stages due to platform camping with WT...though this could be mitigated somewhat thanks to G&W's solid aerials/mobility, and playing keep-away when you have the percent lead. Which could force the Bayonetta player to adopt a different strategy to use against him. Maybe.
 
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Routa

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I have no idea about :4miisword: though. There's the "WTF do I do" factor, but I don't know the matchups for :4miisword:.

We really need a :4miisword: revolution. Miis are criminally underutilized and unknown.
I used to praise Swordspider, but after some time I started to look more into this character and I realized how blinded I was.

I think I will list the good things about this character and then follow up with the things that are keeping him out of relevancy.

Pros:
- Above average groundgame. Many say that there isn't anything to brag about Swordspider, but I would say that Swordspider's groundgame is something to brag about. He has good walk speed (1.188) and traction (0.064). His D-tilt is really good poke (frame 5, 8% damage, faf 20) and has some follow ups like Fair. His Jab is really good even tho it is slowish (Jab comes out on frame 6, faf on jab1 is 19, on jab2 faf is 23 and on jab3 it is 39). With jab you want to follow up jab1/jab2 with d-tilt or with grab. Also like other Miis the Swordspider's grab is one of the better ones. His reward from grab is also good (can follow up D-throw with Fair/Uair). His groundgame is based around d-tilt spacing and jab mixing. Walking>Running is the way to go. Good Swordspider will stay grounded in neutral majority of the time. Also his DA is one of the better ones in this game. Even Trela praises Sw

- Strong killtools. Swordspider has a strong kit of killmoves. Many may not know, but Swordspider has the strongest Uair in terms of killpower. His f-Smash isn't a bad option either. It is pretty much Lucina version of Roy's Forward Smash. His U-Smash is really good too (comes out on frame 11, also it is also known to stagespike people who are hanging on the ledge for reasons unknown). I'm pretty sure that people here already know the Dair so I feel no reason to explain it (Dair -> Footstool uuuuuuhhhhhh....). He also has PT and Hero's Spin if chosen. PT is very similiar to that of a Ganondorf's Down-B. What makes it so good is that it sends people in an angle of 37 add to that it can kill people at the ledge at around 100%. Hero's Spin is pretty much copy of Link's. Only difference is that it has higher kgb, but shorter reach. You can follow up from Jab just like with Link, but it is a bit easier to follow up with (due to faf differences). Then there is Chakram. It isn't a killmove itself, but he is able to followup slow Chakram with a killmove like Hero's Spin, F-smash and PT.

- Good recovery (if chosen SSD)

Cons:
- Poor aerial mobility. Swordspider's air mobility is horrible. Even tho he has good set of aerials, like Ganondorf, he lacks the mobility to abuse them.

- Lack of range. Even tho he has really good moves etc they do lack in range. Just boosting his mobility or giving him more range would help a lot.

- Combo food. Just like with Gunner he does suffer from being combo food. He lacks quick escape moves. Add to that his poor aerial mobility and you can see why Swordspider struggles against combo animals.

- Poor recovery (if Up-B1)

As for MUs... No one knows really. In general Swordspider struggles anyone with better frame data, good combo game or/and great neutral. Swordspider does do well against characters with lacking neutral, average or worse recovery and/or poor landing options. Some say that he beats Rosa and Bayonetta, but then again thous are not that common MUs so it is mainly based around theorycrafting.

In general Swordspider has no place in competitive play due to lack of aerial mobility and/or reach on his attacks.

Also I think that Gunner might end up being a bigger threat in competitive play than Brawler in the future. I will talk about it later when I got the time and willpower.

Sorry for my poor english again.
 
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4) Neutral B...?

I don't really know how useful this move will truly be against Bayonetta, but it seems to help a little bit. He has to be careful of WT shenanigans, grounded Side B, and grab approaches, though this move can potentially serve as a way to help him contest Bayonetta's aerials and aerial side B in certain situations. It could lead to some traps and followups, though I wouldn't rely on it too much due to it being slow and random, and especially because Bayonetta is such a dangerous and tricky opponent to deal with. Oh, and he gets decent distance off of it when wavebouncing, which could sometimes be useful.

...

8) Up B.

Sometimes useful for combos or for catching Bayonetta in the air. However, one important aspect of this move in this particular MU is its ability to potentially kill Bayonetta during her aerial combos, as demonstrated here:
I think I can help expand on Chef (Neutral B). Chef would primarily be used for limiting Bayonetta's approach options with the pseudo-random angles and distances the food flies out of the pan (I say pseudo-random because it's not like Judge; the foods launch at certain angles and distances). It also has a niche for edgeguarding (the pan is disjointed, semi-spikes, does a good amount of knockback, and the food doesn't deal too much knockback, which serves as a good way to stop someone's jump or something; the food can also be bounced back from the edge/side of the stage as well, setting up for a punish). Other than that, Chef doesn't have too much of a role. It could prevent Bayonetta from having a safe landing, but I haven't done much testing with it (because if she gets hit, no more landing lag). The only other characters I can think of that Chef has good use are against Dedede (Gordos) and Peach (limiting approach options).

As for Fire, it also can be used for edgeguarding. With some intangible frames, it can contest with her recovery, but I'm nto too keen on it's reliability given Bayonetta has mutliple ways of recovering high and low.

Another thing to consider is G&W's Up-Air Windboxes. Since Bayonetta gains landing lag after using her Side-B and Up-B, G&W can keep pushing her up until she lands (ideally not letting her snapping to the ledge) giving him enough time to punish the landing lag. The same can't be said for D-Tilt's Wind Box, though. She can Witch Time that since it does damage.
 

valakmtnsmash4

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Hey check this out please it could step up your smash game! Glaicier Gaming is a relatively new gaming community specifically made to be a hub for people that are interested in the popular Nintendo franchise entitled "Super Smash Bros". Our main objective is to create a place that can not only help smashers become better at their respective games,but also give people a place to hangout and just chill. So what are you waiting for? Join Glacier Gaming! We are waiting for you! https://discord.gg/xWC6HqY
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Y2Kay

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I think Greninja loses to Sheik and Sonic badly, and to Diddy slightly.
Are you sure we lose to Sonic badly?

So far . . .

1.) Some beat KEN twice in bracket (4 times if you include WiFi league)

2.) DarkAura beat SuperGirlKels twice

3.) iStudying beat IxisNaugus just now

I'd usually agree with you but Greninja's have been doing so much better at the MU recently. You'd be hard pressed to find a top Sonic win this time last year.

Also want to mention that iStudying has been doing much better against Mr. R and took him to game 5 today too. Mr. R is the most experienced Sheik in the match up and he only considers it a slight advantage for Sheik.

:150:
 

FeelMeUp

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Greninja is one of the only characters with a Sheik matchup that's been improving over time, yeah. I think the reasons are primarily rage Usmash and the needle nerf+the shuriken buff. Prepatch Sheik needle charge and needle throw both beat shurikens, but now only the charge beats Shurikens while a Shuriken to needle trade is a loss for Sheik.
It also helps that Greninja is amazing at punishing jumpins at high % and his specific fallspeed+weight+airspeed make him surprisingly hard to combo around the 20-70% range for Sheik. Even fthrow fair strings aren't the easiest thing after the nerf on both.
 
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Laken64

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Trela's biggest problem is that he has a bit of a confidence issue.

He lets losses affect his play and let's them affect his play A LOT.

Once he's able to harden up a bit I think his play will improve.


He should stick to :4ryu: as a main.

That said, :4charizard::4shulk: aren't bad picks for secondaries or pockets. If :4ryu: just isn't cutting it, those two might as their matchup spreads are fairly different.

I have no idea about :4miisword: though. There's the "WTF do I do" factor, but I don't know the matchups for :4miisword:.

We really need a :4miisword: revolution. Miis are criminally underutilized and unknown.
I remember a couple of months back in a really long Twitter post he said he would start using :4mewtwo:more as a secondary and cover for:4ryu:'s bad MUs since he didn't believe in 20SF or whatever it was called anymore (but that could just him feeling down at the moment of that post so I guess he dropped the idea of using :4mewtwo: after that post since he hasn't used him in tournament from what I've seen)
 

Illusion.

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Are you sure we lose to Sonic badly?

So far . . .

1.) Some beat KEN twice in bracket (4 times if you include WiFi league)

2.) DarkAura beat SuperGirlKels twice

3.) iStudying beat IxisNaugus just now

I'd usually agree with you but Greninja's have been doing so much better at the MU recently. You'd be hard pressed to find a top Sonic win this time last year.

Also want to mention that iStudying has been doing much better against Mr. R and took him to game 5 today too. Mr. R is the most experienced Sheik in the match up and he only considers it a slight advantage for Sheik.

:150:
A 40:60/-2 MU doesn't mean players won't ever win against that character in tournament, results aren't everything. You have to look at the theory behind it.

Aggressive Sonic, which is how all of the ones you mentioned play like, is easier for us to deal with than a Wrath-style.
 

Y2Kay

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But Gren usually lost to ANY kind of sonic play style though. I don't think we beat Sonic or anything, but it's undeniable that Greninja has been doing MUCH better than he usually does.

:150:
 

~ Gheb ~

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Greninja's results have become a lot more consistent and solid recently, especially since tasty tofu started to place in top 8 a lot. I'm not sure how much that did regarding the general reception of the character but I think it'd be a mistake if he were placed any lower than where he is on the current tier list in the future.

I see more consistency in this character's results than, say, Corrin who consistently gets hyped for somewhat random upsets and otherwise unremarkable, mostly local results. What Greninja lacks to reach up to the likes of Villager, Toon Link or Falcon though are big hits at CEO-level tournaments. For now he's in a good spot around the ~20th area.

:059:
 

Y2Kay

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The gap between iStudying and the rest of the Greninja player base has closed significantly since the beginning of this summer. Dark Aura, Elexiao, Stroder, Tasty Tofu, Shinjoebi, and Illusion have all made really good progress and contribute collectively to Greninja's results. Venia and Some's resurgence has also helped out too.

:150:
 

Illusion.

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Oh yeah I'm not denying that, my point is just we can't have an overreliance on results to determine a MU.

To put it into perspective, iStudying managed to take Mr. R :4sheik: to game 5 today. However, Sodrek 3-0'd iStudying and we happened to have a discussion recently in the thread where a few mentioned that :4fox: is likely even. Going by results, should this mean :4sheik: is an easier MU than :4fox:? Results do hold a bit of weight, let's just not rely on them too much.
 
D

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Major just happened in Norway today. Here is the top 16. 175 entrants total.

ALSO M MAKING 9TH SOLO SHULK, KREYGASM
 
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Routa

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Izaw getting 9th with Link is also a large achievement. :D
He marked a 3-2 match against Jebu as 2-0 victory for him. What a nice guy, eh?
Also there were a huge amount of Mario players competing.

Edit: The results was later changed to 3-2 like it was.
Here is a picture before the change
 
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soniczx123

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Major just happened in Norway today. Here is the top 16. 175 entrants total.

ALSO M MAKING 9TH SOLO SHULK, KREYGASM
Yeah, M is probably the best Shulk main in Europe, (Scarhi even admitted M was better than him after they played a MM at BEAST), he's just unknown to the entire world besides Scandinavia. Keep a watchout for him if you want solid Shulk gameplay.
 

ShadowGuy1

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Greninja's results have become a lot more consistent and solid recently, especially since tasty tofu started to place in top 8 a lot. I'm not sure how much that did regarding the general reception of the character but I think it'd be a mistake if he were placed any lower than where he is on the current tier list in the future.

I see more consistency in this character's results than, say, Corrin who consistently gets hyped for somewhat random upsets and otherwise unremarkable, mostly local results. What Greninja lacks to reach up to the likes of Villager, Toon Link or Falcon though are big hits at CEO-level tournaments. For now he's in a good spot around the ~20th area.

:059:
While I must admit greninjas results are indeed better, I never knew 3 reps in top 24 at SSC(One getting 9th), 17th I believe at TBH6, and various top 8 japense results were unremarkable. Also on the subject of corrin, at a Florida national Mugi beat Day and Prince Ramen and faces WormyNugget for winners top 8.
 
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