Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jamurai]

I never said that [Link beats MK].

Dude, not trying to be a **** but you really did say that, I quoted it word for word in my previous post. Don't deny when the evidence is right there, it's ok to admit you made a mistake.

Personally I don't have an issue with the matchup, but at the very least they do better in it than Rosa does. Stay near the ledge and play the keep-away game and force MK to approach, then counter his approach. Because of MK's linear neutral and approach options, it shouldn't be too difficult.

I agree that they fare better than Rosa, although only slightly, more because Rosa/MK isn't as terrible as some say (-2 imo) rather than Tink/Link getting dunked on.

It's not that simple. MK doesn't have a big problem dealing with projectile zoning. He has more than enough ground mobility to walk and block the projectiles and burst in with dash attack/grab when an opportunity arises. Your approach counter of choice can be baited with said walking, PP etc. and it's all very well standing near the ledge, but thanks for the free stage control, and (l)edgeguard and/or juggle opportunity. MK's reward isn't as neutered as people think if they camp ledge if you factor the latter in.

Since Link is relatively combo-food-y and his projectile zoning isn't exactly as air-tight as others which MK finds more annoying (Mega Man, Tink, Olimar), as well as being rather slow (horizontally), MK beats him +1 imo. Tink is fairly even, but if anything it leans towards MK.

Then again, if you never thought either of the Links beat MK in the first place, there's not much to discuss. Tink/Rosa seems cool though. How does Tink do against Cloud and Falcon?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Fox's recent success is interesting, I was going to mentally attribute it to their mains making their neutral and advantage states ever tighter with time and lessening the opportunities for the opponent to punish a screw-up, but equally Fox counterplay is developing and becoming more consistent over time also. It seems like every character has a devastating Fox-specific combo (reminds me of Brawl Sheik's stuff on him), and he can be one of the easiest to edgeguard. It'll be fun to see whether he rises or falls (or neither) as the years tick by.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japan is loaded with 3 fantastic players and 2 decent players probably stuck in the same boat as the midwest.

Kie is an incredible player, not just "decent". The Diddy players Zinoto and Zero are the only people that I can't imagine him standing much of a chance against. Everybody else is manageable for him.

And let's not forget that the japanese are traditionally very strong when it comes to crewbattles even though by names EC and WC have the stronger teams this time around.

NAKAT is the * only * Fox player to ever play the Mario matchup correctly against either Anti or Ally.

The only one.

That should say a lot.

He's generally one of the few people who play the Mario matchup well, not just specifically for a Fox player.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm really hesitant to ask this since it tends to lead to a **** show but it is in the green topics and it has been on my mind. With Sheik and Bayo doing well in theory and in practice (though Das Koopa's post at the top of this page shows Sheik has been dropping a bit, if only due to lack of attendance) with at least a few posters calling one or the other the best character in the game, I ask, does anyone think or feel either character needs another nerf? Not really caring for specific details if yes but I'm wondering what the general opinion is. Or heck, maybe for a lot of people it's not a 'yes, I want a nerf' but a 'I don't WANT one persay but I'd appreciate or wouldn't mind if one came'

Even if either character ends up having no bad mus, that's not doom and gloom for anything as Melee has shown with Fox and Falco. And them completely invalidating characters like isn't too bad since characters like him would need massive rehauls or buffs to be viable anyways.

I'm personally on the fence. I don't know enough about Bayo to give an opinion and with Sheik...I just honestly hate needles...like, a lot. **** needles.

I think the fact that you only mentioned nerfs And no buffs is a missed opportunity

If there was anytime where we needed to nerf characters, there was a time we needed to buff characters.

Yes we eliminate the problematic characters and put them more in line with the cast members, and that's more important and all, but that doesn't keep some cast members (bowser Jr., Doc Mario, DHD, jiggly, D3, etc...) from being too weak, or outright disfunctional by design.

To answer the question doe, I could see bayo's Up-b hit-box shrinking more and less active frames on witch time. She's good after that I think (she's good rn, but I'm just saying).

Sheik has nothing left to nerf besides changing her frame data, and it's not really needed.

 

[FeelMeUp]

A lot of characters could use hitbox reductions or increases(....). Hitbox changes in general are a really underrated way to balance characters. Sorry for large images, but things like this really are not okay at all.
Flip Kick, Falcon Fsmash, and Fox Uair are shown.

Spoiler: Dumb Hitboxes

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think the hitbox of Falcon's jab finisher really takes the cake though.

 

[adom4]

I think the hitbox of Falcon's jab finisher really takes the cake though.

Spoiler: lol

 

[Baby_Sneak]

None of those are broken and unnecessarily overpowered though. Only one that's debatable is fox Uair. Maybe lowering the Knockback growth so it kills later.

 

[FeelMeUp]

None of those are broken and unnecessarily overpowered though. Only one that's debatable is fox Uair. Maybe lowering the Knockback growth so it kills later.

Step about 15 feet away from your monitor while it's pointed at Flip Kick's hitbox.
You will no longer be able to see ZSS anymore. The middle of the screen should be all red.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think the fact that you only mentioned nerfs And no buffs is a missed opportunity

If there was anytime where we needed to nerf characters, there was a time we needed to buff characters.

Yes we eliminate the problematic characters and put them more in line with the cast members, and that's more important and all, but that doesn't keep some cast members (bowser Jr., Doc Mario, DHD, jiggly, D3, etc...) from being too weak, or outright disfunctional by design.

To answer the question doe, I could see bayo's Up-b hit-box shrinking more and less active frames on witch time. She's good after that I think (she's good rn, but I'm just saying).

Sheik has nothing left to nerf besides changing her frame data, and it's not really needed.

IMO I think the way to properly nerf the majority of top tiers is to hit their burst mobility/escape options and consequently their recovery.

Notice how the majority of characters with GOOD burst mobility moves are top tier. The lowest is pikachu who actually had QA nerfed. They both lower their potential risk while increasing reward. I don't think nintendo properly balanced the majority of these. (Flip kick, AFB, Dragon Lunge, Spindash, etc)

Like, I can't think of a single decent burst mobility option that is just "balanced"

...Except Quick Attack, because they looked at it again and nerfed it.

Edit: Actually, jr's cart, ike's quickdraw, and fox/falco side special are definitely balanced. Though my point still stands. The better their mobility, the better the character. And it's smarter to nerf burst mobility than overall for the sake of continuity.

Spoiler: lol

It also lingers TEN FRAMES.

What is this character lol

 

[Nah]

I sometimes wonder what possessed the dev team to give these moves hitboxes like that

none of those have any business being nearly as disjointed as they are, let alone disjointed at all

they give me nightmares

I still need to see those mid tiers and their matchups. Let me post one that I got off of Discord. Samsora and Slayerz made it.View attachment 118535

I have to ask why Mac is +3 for Peach. What could make it that bad for him, at least so bad that he gets to be outside of the other +2s. and I disagree with the Robin MU being in Peach's favor but whatever

 

[DunnoBro]

I have to ask why Mac is +3 for Peach. What could make it that bad for him, at least so bad that he gets to be outside of the other +2s. and I disagree with the Robin MU being in Peach's favor but whatever

IIRC It's because she bypasses large chunks of his kit with float, able to bait and punish with fair/dair. (Which fair also has a naaasty angle, just disallowing mac to recover well before it actually kills him)

Turnips are also by far the best in this mu. Mac actually can't do anything at higher percents.

Overall, her neutral is definitely the best in the game vs little mac(outside of maybe pacman?), while also retaining more than passable edgeguarding.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The top tier hit boxes aren't too oppressive in this game few of their attacks are just ridiculous, especially compared to previous titles (Hi, ) A minor shift or shrinking on a few of them would be nice but not too necessary (Flip Kick and Diddy Fair are silly for how everything else about the moves are great) the best way to buff characters in smash generally are hitboxes and movement speed. I think the meta is trending in a great direction but I know a lot of characters could use some hitbox tinkering () that would help them out a lot. Until then I'll dream of the day I can give sword characters a taste of their own medicine with Fair

 

[Radical Larry]

The top tier hit boxes aren't too oppressive in this game.

You've never fought a Rosalina and got sent off stage before, have you?

 

[Krysco]

I think the fact that you only mentioned nerfs And no buffs is a missed opportunity

If there was anytime where we needed to nerf characters, there was a time we needed to buff characters.

Yes we eliminate the problematic characters and put them more in line with the cast members, and that's more important and all, but that doesn't keep some cast members (bowser Jr., Doc Mario, DHD, jiggly, D3, etc...) from being too weak, or outright disfunctional by design.

To answer the question doe, I could see bayo's Up-b hit-box shrinking more and less active frames on witch time. She's good after that I think (she's good rn, but I'm just saying).

Sheik has nothing left to nerf besides changing her frame data, and it's not really needed.

I specifically asked about nerfs since the answer isn't as clear. I can imagine most people here would answer 'yes' if I asked if Ganon/Puff/Zelda/D3/any other low tier should be buffed. Nerfs on the other hand, may get a yes or a no. I specifically asked about Sheik and Bayo nerfs since many deem them the best although asking about nerfs in general may have been a better idea. Like, if Sheik and Bayo did get nerfed then either nothing would change or the likes of Rosa, Cloud, Sonic, Mario and Fox would just take their place and they've all got silly stuff too.

I do agree that buffs would be more ideal but I'm sure the majority of people think that.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

You've never fought a Rosalina and got sent off stage before, have you?

I said they aren't all too oppressive doesn't mean some don't exist. I know first hand how silly Rosa's GP range is for example or her Up/Down airs though I will admit it did forget about her when I wrote my post. Still they aren't that bad compared to say everything Brawl Meta Knight could drown you in.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

IIRC It's because she bypasses large chunks of his kit with float, able to bait and punish with fair/dair. (Which fair also has a naaasty angle, just disallowing mac to recover well before it actually kills him)

Turnips are also by far the best in this mu. Mac actually can't do anything at higher percents.

Overall, her neutral is definitely the best in the game vs little mac(outside of maybe pacman?), while also retaining more than passable edgeguarding.

Nah, Pac Man is so much worse for Mac than Peach. With Peach you can at least punish certain options and shark beneath her, plus she can't float forever. Pac Man just prevents Mac's neutral and advantage from existing. All Pac Man has to do is throw down a hydrant with a trampoline in front of it and just throw fruit. Then he just replaces them when they disappear. If Mac's gonna get through after trampoline goes away, Pac Man just uses trampoline where he's at and bounces to the opposite side. Simply putting a trampoline without the hydrant is bad enough and shuts down all approaches while allowing Pac Man to trap Mac on his side of the stage. Then Hydrant just had to have the water come out and push Mac back further away.

 

[TriTails]

None of those are broken and unnecessarily overpowered though. Only one that's debatable is fox Uair. Maybe lowering the Knockback growth so it kills later.

I'd say lower the damage. It deals 16%. That's more than some smash attacks.

Not to mention, when Fox recieves the aid of platform and proceeds to land 3 to 4 U-airs in a row...

 

[Rizen]

On the topic of incredible hitbubbles don't forget 's rings. 's Uair is crazy but she so rare and flawed in other ways that nobody notices.

I specifically asked about nerfs since the answer isn't as clear. I can imagine most people here would answer 'yes' if I asked if Ganon/Puff/Zelda/D3/any other low tier should be buffed.

I'll try to phrase this as a gameplay statement rather than a hypothetical buff statement. has surprisingly good footsies because his range is huge and powerful attacks do better in SSB4 due to the shield mechanics. A big downside he has that other super heavies don't is his terrible recovery. I'll die at 130% with him because the distance is so short. He can get dragged down easily by simple Nairs or projectiles if they know how to avoid his upB/sideB hitbubbles and dies very early. A better recovery wouldn't make him great but would help him keep up with the other heavies. Ganon would also do better on a stage list of only small stages; chasing down an agile opponent on DH or T&C is hell.

has some surprisingly good and (dare I say) underrated options at close range. Her big problem is she doesn't have a way to force opponents to respect her and relies on them messing up. Her air game is worse than her ground game in this sense. If she had a good spacing Fair that was weaker but safe it would really help. Her projectiles were designed around walling with phantom and sending din's or her upB through but both are slow and easy to shield/avoid. Phantom can't be held indefinitely (like Link's arrows) or shield canceled so you can simply wait it out then return to the stage or whatever. It's a good defensive move but that describes her entire kit. Din's is pretty worthless and seems to be made for multiplayer party matches. A quick offensive projectile instead would have done her wonders. Even a weak thing like Mario's fireballs to force action.

They're currently not as bad as past low tiers but bottom tiers none the less. It's a shame a few fundamental changes like the ones outlined would have done them wonders.

 

[Floor]

On the topic of incredible hitbubbles don't forget 's rings. 's Uair is crazy but she so rare and flawed in other ways that nobody notices.

I'll try to phrase this as a gameplay statement rather than a hypothetical buff statement. has surprisingly good footsies because his range is huge and powerful attacks do better in SSB4 due to the shield mechanics. A big downside he has that other super heavies don't is his terrible recovery. I'll die at 130% with him because the distance is so short. He can get dragged down easily by simple Nairs or projectiles if they know how to avoid his upB/sideB hitbubbles and dies very early. A better recovery wouldn't make him great but would help him keep up with the other heavies. Ganon would also do better on a stage list of only small stages; chasing down an agile opponent on DH or T&C is hell.

has some surprisingly good and (dare I say) underrated options at close range. Her big problem is she doesn't have a way to force opponents to respect her and relies on them messing up. Her air game is worse than her ground game in this sense. If she had a good spacing Fair that was weaker but safe it would really help. Her projectiles were designed around walling with phantom and sending din's or her upB through but both are slow and easy to shield/avoid. Phantom can't be held indefinitely (like Link's arrows) or shield canceled so you can simply wait it out then return to the stage or whatever. It's a good defensive move but that describes her entire kit. Din's is pretty worthless and seems to be made for multiplayer party matches. A quick offensive projectile instead would have done her wonders. Even a weak thing like Mario's fireballs to force action.

They're currently not as bad as past low tiers but bottom tiers none the less. It's a shame a few fundamental changes like the ones outlined would have done them wonders.

I personally put Zelda pretty well into low tier. Her moves can deal up to 20% damage and all her common moves (basically) are kill moves, even ftilt! The only reason she is low tier or bottom tier is her landing lag. With just half the landing lag, I think Zelda could be high tier and a threat to nationals.

 

[Ethan7]

Spoiler: lol

Where did you find this visualization? It looks like you are using this: eTIM8bBMn7w, but that video doesn't have visualizations for multiple moves including fair.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On the topic of incredible hitbubbles don't forget 's rings. 's Uair is crazy but she so rare and flawed in other ways that nobody notices.

Unrelated to everything else, thank you for calling them rings instead of halos. It's what they are. (Quick, someone make sure Saturn's are still there. Anyone have a telescope?)

Regarding top tier nerfs...I actually have to say I'm pretty satisfied on the whole with how they're shaking out so far. There's no clear #1 character (yet), which speaks well to the balance IMO. DunnoBro has a point with burst mobility usually being a key factor in a top tier's kit -- we see Sheik with Bouncing Fish, ZSS with Flip Kick, Diddy with Monkey Flip (and a bajillion B-reverses), and Bayonetta with...everything as the most obvious examples. One factor in this is that they get the burst back when they're hit. Well, I know Bayonetta does at least. I admit I'm not completely certain about the rest. The wiki doesn't help either. (Although, fun fact: Apparently you can't use Bouncing Fish from the ground if you're currently made of metal.)

 

[DungeonMaster]

I like the discussion of hitbox sizes. What people need to understand is this guy, Sakurai, balances specifically based on weight, hitbox sizes, hurtbox sizes and frame data BUT he strongly favors weight.
If you're heavy, basically you suck, he's going to hit you where it really hurts. He's going to vary the hurtbox, hitbox sizes and the frame data but always with a preference towards the lightweights. He factors weight above and beyond everything else.

Take fox, fox is a dumb character. I hate the design of this character, intensely. The size of this character's hurtbox to his hitboxes is downright stupid.
His D-air has a hitbox the size of DDD's hammer. His tiny little foot is in fact as big as D3's hammer.
His smash attacks are faster than many character's JAB.
For the frame data this character has, he should have all his hitboxes reduced 10, maybe 20%. They are stupidly large for the animation. There's really no reason for this, it's just a very crude, extreme attempt at balance. It does not make the game better. It makes it frustrating.
Done my rant.

 

[BSP]

IIRC It's because she bypasses large chunks of his kit with float, able to bait and punish with fair/dair. (Which fair also has a naaasty angle, just disallowing mac to recover well before it actually kills him)

Turnips are also by far the best in this mu. Mac actually can't do anything at higher percents.

Overall, her neutral is definitely the best in the game vs little mac(outside of maybe pacman?), while also retaining more than passable edgeguarding.

A local Mac main has played Samsora in Mac vs Peach and myself in Pac vs Mac. He told me Pac-Man was worse due to what YerTheBestAROUND just said.

 

[Ethan7]

He factors weight above and beyond everything else.

But .

 

[blackghost]

the complaints about weight completely ignore what smash is at its core. these heavy characters have bad frames and normals because without them they'd be oppressive in ffa or hard to deal with with items in a match as well. light characters (outside puff) are given tools to.kill because in a ffa these characters die to random strong hits or items. the balance of the game is impressive given that a healthy competitive scene and in ffa gameshe's people rarely consider similar Character to be among the best.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spoiler: lol

Now THIS.....is some unacceptable bull****.

 

[Megamang]

And the same character has banana toss OoS (a frame 1 block that blocks low and high for over 30%!) that confirms for a freakin kill move! If people saw a similar freeze frame for the distance banana toss OoS covers while Diddy is almost completely safe waiting for a commitment.... theyd be outraged. I think.


Its why a while back I realized i shouldn't fight him at all, just pepper him with projectiles from outside his range.


Ive also died to his friggin command grab at SV one too many times.

 

[Ninety]

NAKAT is the * only * Fox player to ever play the Mario matchup correctly against either Anti or Ally.

The only one.

That should say a lot.

What way is that?

 

[TDK]

Went looking through the R1 and R2 pools at TBH6, here's some ones to look out for:
Round 1: (2 decent players paired up, note that none of these are garunteed)
Zinoto vs Brawlman1000

SuperGirlKels vs Wizzrobe

TheReflexWonder vs Raizek (Hungrybox is also in this pool)

Keitaro vs Seagull Joe


Nasubi vs Ned

Kogarosuma vs Rich Brown

KingKong vs VoiD

Craftis vs Puppeh

6WX vs Myran

San vs Wrath

Again, none of these are sure things, there could be some upsets even before this.

 

[JayE]

So... many Sonics lol
6WX and Craftis are fun to watch. But Wrath? Lamest Sonic main. I'm pretty sure he's PROUD of his playstyle. Smh

 

[Ninety]

He's proud that he plays in a way that works and wins him games, yes.

 

[JayE]

I mean sure, we're usually proud and happy when we win... but I hope he realizes his playstyle and how it affects how people see him as a player. lol

 

[TDK]

I mean sure, we're usually proud and happy when we win... but I hope he realizes his playstyle and how it affects how people see him as a player. lol

People play the game to win or make money or to have fun, not because they want to be seen on stream. If Wrath wants to be the world's best time-out sonic and be proud of it, he should.

 

[JayE]

People play the game to win or make money or to have fun, not because they want to be seen on stream. If Wrath wants to be the world's best time-out sonic and be proud of it, he should.

yeah, to each their own. But I really hope he doesn't win too much. Thats just me though. If he's successful, then it is what it is

 

[TDK]

yeah, to each their own. But I really hope he doesn't win too much. Thats just me though. If he's successful, then it is what it is

You don't need to be rude about it. People aren't playing the game for your enjoyment, they're playing if for their own.

 

[blackghost]

yeah, to each their own. But I really hope he doesn't win too much. Thats just me though. If he's successful, then it is what it is

yeah but you see people complain about combo heavy pink fresh or Salem as well people always complain if they don't like it don't watch.

 

[JayE]

You don't need to be rude about it. People aren't playing the game for your enjoyment, they're playing if for their own.

...I'm not trying to be rude. Sorry. I'm just saying what I think about it. I'm not gonna slander the kid for playing lame or denouncing him. I'm just saying I don't like his playstyle. And I do know that they're not playing to please me. I'm just stating my opinion... I don't mean to start arguments with malicious intent. If you think I'm rude, there's way more rude people who are truly rude and worse about things.

Seems pretty easy to get something started when I say something... sigh. Oh well. I'm used to it lol

 

[Das Koopa]

Went looking through the R1 and R2 pools at TBH6, here's some ones to look out for:
Round 1: (2 decent players paired up, note that none of these are garunteed)
Zinoto vs Brawlman1000

SuperGirlKels vs Wizzrobe

Nairo vs Phoenix

TheReflexWonder vs Raizek (Hungrybox is also in this pool)

Keitaro vs Seagull Joe

Abadango and Serge are in the same pool, so we might get Abadango vs Serge

Nasubi vs Ned

Kogarosuma vs Rich Brown

KingKong vs VoiD

Craftis vs Puppeh

6WX vs Myran

San vs Wrath

Again, none of these are sure things, there could be some upsets even before this.

not Mexican Serge and not SoCal Phoenix btw

 

[Routa]

TheReflexWonder vs Raizek
Nasubi vs Ned

Not looking that great for Warios. I'm pretty sure that most of guys and gals are aware how bad this MU is. I'm afraid of that most in their pools, who do not main Cloud, will take out their pocket/secondary Clouds. Speaking of the Glorious King of all Memes and ruler of the Sons of Wanarcy Wario... There will be at least 5 Wario mains in TBH6: Nasubi, Reflex, adct, TheAmazingPie and... I already forgot the name :S That is a lot of dedicated mains who play a character who is known to struggle hard against Cloud, Bayonetta and M2. It will be interesting to see how there players are able to play around these characters.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Keitaro vs seagull lol