• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

YerTheBestAROUND

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
373
Location
Playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild for eternity.
Cloud definitely does not go even with Marth while winning against Lucina, I'm sorry.
I legit want to ask the people who made this what exactly goes on in a game that makes Cloud win this matchup. I don't see it and Komorikiri who uses Lucina specifically against Cloud probably doesn't either.
I am also convinced Mario is either even or in Mario's favour.
Actually, why do I care anymore? Seriously, I need to take a cold, long shower and legit ask myself who do I still care to judge these things.
Didn't Reddit actually have Cloud in 1st place once in their tier lists, too?
Being able to kill Cloud somewhat reliably while on stage, where he excells, before he can jank you with LCS is very important. Lucina has to commit to a nair or a smash attack, maybe a jab > u/fsmash/shield breaker, to reliably kill on stage at reasonable percents, Marth is just gonna swing his sword. I can see why it would be more disadvantageous for Lucina than Marth. Just 'cause Komorikiri uses Lucina doesn't make the MU the same ratio as it is for Marth. That being said, 55:45 is hardly a bad MU.
inb4 edge guarding. we get it. if we keep bring up lucina's edge guarding when it comes to killing we're going to reach pikachu leveks of nauseam.

FLUDD is the only really problematic thing in the Mario/Cloud match up. Cloud's neutral is much, much better than Mario's and his advantage is just about as strong too. Part of the reason why FLUDD can be problematic onstage is just due to how Cloud players tend to jump a lot so they can abuse his godlike aerials and they get pushed farther back because of it. I'm still waiting for more Clouds to dash dance and abuse his ground mobility a bit more. It's even at best, but seeing as Cloud has a better onstage game that can allow him to prevent himself from getting knocked off as much, much better range, and is able to force an approach with Limit Charge and wall out with ridiculous aerials. Definitely Cloud's favor in my book.

Puff doesn't lose that badly! ...wait LOL PUFF INSTANT -3
Nah, it's really bad. Like, it's really that bad. LCS jank, uair is evil, giant ass nair that snuffs Jigg's aerials or at best trades (never favorable for Jiggs). If Cloud had a better recovery it would easily be the free-est MU in the game.. That's the only saving grace, that you might be able to hit Cloud off stage and maybe be able to edge guard him. The problem with that being that you have to break through Cloud's incredible neutral without getting destroyed.
 
Last edited:

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,651
Location
Rochester, NY
NNID
Sansoldier
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
If Cloud doesn't retreat his aerials, Jiggs can whiff punish them all if they happen to miss the target. I think Cloud shouldn't be playing too aggro in the MU. Jiggs also wants to keep a low profile, staying close to the ground and using aerial autocancels. It's no worse than like Kirby vs. Cloud. High level Jigglypuff shouldn't be getting hit for free that easily.
 
Last edited:

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
just gonna say you dont necessarily want to kill cloud onstage, most of the time sending him offstage at a bad angle is enough.
Hitting him with a Semi-Spike on stage always does the trick if you want to kill Cloud on stage. For me, I just find it fun to hit a Cloud with Link's D-Smash in particular.
 
Last edited:

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Link has had a rapid increase in success as of late, by the way

I'll be posting the weekend compilation sooooooon
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Just a real quick question; what do you suppose contributes to characters getting increases and decreases in success?
Dependent entirely on skill/brackets/etc. Some players just appear and do well. On the subject of Link, T is a good example, apparently garnering mediocre results until an abrupt 2nd at Umebura, proceeded by a string of other good accomplishments. It just happens.

Don't forget Izaw though!
Nah, it's, like:

T > Scizor > Cat/Sova Unknown (hard to gauge, MD/VA and Europe probably aren't far off in skill gap) > Izaw
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Tournies compiled for the weekend.

1st: Kamemushi :4megaman:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
3rd: Kirihara :rosalina:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Umeki :4peach:
5th: Taranito :4ness:
7th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
9th: Ke-ya :4robinf:, :4corrinf:
9th: Brood :4duckhunt:
13th: Gakuto :4ness:
13th: Jill :4fox:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Some :4greninja:

1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
3rd: iStudying :4greninja:
4th: Ixis :4sonic:
5th: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
5th: Gluttony :4wario2:, :4falcon:
7th: Purple H :4cloud2:
7th: Griffith :4bayonetta:, :4zss::4mario:
9th: S1-14 :4ness:
9th: Greward :4olimar:, :4megaman:, :4bowser:
9th: Sodrek :4cloud2:
9th: QuiK :4zss:
13th: Afro Smash :4samus:
13th: Light :4sheik:, :4mario:
13th: Cat :4link:
13th: LoNg0uw :4rob:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. E :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:

1st: Ghostbone :4bayonetta:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Extra :4gaw:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:, :4ness:
4th: Ignis :4mario:, :4corrinf::4robinf:
5th: Poppt1 :4ness:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Leisha :4rob:
7th: Duon :4fox:, :4littlemac:
9th: Cmk :4sheik:
9th: Seymour Butts :4yoshi:
9th: Xettman :4link:
9th: Sable :4dk:
13th: Jollus :4marth:
13th: Zivhayr :4littlemac:
13th: Read :4fox:
13th: Invisi :4jigglypuff:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
2nd: Zinoto :4diddy:
3rd: Dyr :4diddy:
4th: True Blue :4sonic:
5th: WormyNugget :4diddy:
5th: Master Raven :4sheik:
7th: MVD :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
7th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Dath :4robinf:
9th: Saj :4bayonetta:
9th: Xaltis :rosalina:
9th: MuteAce :4peach:
13th: NickRiddle :4zss:
13th: 8BitMan :4rob:
13th: Streetshark :4sonic:
13th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: Xzax :4fox:
2nd: 3xA :4tlink:
3rd: Rice :4mario:, :4bowser:
4th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:, :4dk:
5th: FuTure :4ness:, :4pikachu:
5th: Hitaku :4mewtwo:
7th: Soronie :4shulk:
7th: Jehtt :4megaman:
9th: Trevonte :4sheik:
9th: Black_DynoWright :4littlemac:
9th: Nabster :rosalina:
9th: Sinister :rosalina:
13th: Krustol :4mario:
13th: Athena :4robinf:. :4corrinf:
13th: 8BIT|Nova! :4greninja:
13th: 8BIT|Roc :4rob:

1st: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4villager:
3rd: Brawlman1K :4sonic:
4th: iiGGY :rosalina:
5th: DKWill :4dk:, :4cloud2:
5th: Jayson :4fox:
7th: Cyan Can :4mario:, :4luigi:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
9th: Aerolink :4bayonetta:
9th: Jaehbock :4gaw:
9th: Makibaz :4bowser:
9th: Konga :4dk:
13th: Sage :4ness:
13th: Wolfei :4link:
13th: RedTux TK :4megaman:
13th: Elrox :4bayonetta:

EDIT: correct any errors etc
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Don't underestimate how much the seemingly small fair buffs transformed a decent move into a ridiculous one. It went from being a strong attack that was safeish to one of the safest, most versatile attacks in the entire game, and something capable of directly challenging Sheik's pre-patch fair in combat.

Another fun aspect of why Mewtwo is different from its Melee counterpart is actually the fact that they went with the more modern Mewtwo design. In Melee, Mewtwo had a frame 5 d-tilt that was also really good, but the character was also much squatter in terms of proportions, meaning a shorter tail. Now Mewtwo has this gigantic appendage in line with its more humanoid appearance. Same thing goes for fair. Now, Mewtwo lunges its entire body forward, giving the move more range. You can see them struggle with how to balance Mewtwo out, originally trying to mitigate Mewtwo's new proportions with proper frame data changes, and overcompensating as a result upon first release.
 

Juno97

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
15
Location
California, Bay Area
NNID
Tenkenjin
1st: Xzax :4fox:
2nd: 3xA :4tlink:
3rd: Rice :4mario:, :4bowser:
4th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:, :4dk:
5th: FuTure :4ness:, :4pikachu:
5th: Hitaku :4mewtwo:
7th: Soronie :4shulk:
7th: Jehtt :4megaman:
9th: Trevonte :4sheik:
9th: Black_DynoWright :4littlemac:
9th: Nabster :rosalina:
9th: Sinister :rosalina:
13th: Krustol :4mario:
13th: Athena :4robinf:. :4corrinf:
13th: 8BIT|Nova! :4greninja:
13th: 8BIT|Roc :4rob:
I got top 32 at this tourney going Fox/Cloud

Next time I'll get into top 16 as shown here
 
Last edited:

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Largest Mewtwo buffs were probably the landing lag improvements (at least until they made him Sheik fast.) He used to have landing lag in excess among ALL of his aerials, they fixed it when they made him run as fast as like, Meta Knight. That was around when he became really good. Just a fair reminder his Nair used to have almost 20f of landing lag.
 

Luco

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
9,232
Location
The isle of venom, Australia
NNID
dracilus
3DS FC
2638-1462-5558
Das Koopa Das Koopa I used Ness in top 32 of DIAD2 vs Leisha as well as heavily during pools, and attempted usage of him vs Boozer (shield breaks are fun and tilted me into switching though).

Didn't get to use him as much as I'd like (I generally encountered MUs where Lucas was preferred this tournament), you're welcome to count him as a secondary, but he was still critical to my success.

PK kids, especially Ness had a BIG showing this weekend btw. Good stuff. :D

Also shoutouts to my fellow statesman @Invisi for getting top 16 with Jiggs (and Rosa)?
 
Last edited:

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
Location
The Empire
Tournies compiled for the weekend.

1st: Kamemushi :4megaman:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
3rd: Kirihara :rosalina:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Umeki :4peach:
5th: Taranito :4ness:
7th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
9th: Ke-ya :4robinf:, :4corrinf:
9th: Brood :4duckhunt:
13th: Gakuto :4ness:
13th: Jill :4fox:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Some :4greninja:

1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
3rd: iStudying :4greninja:
4th: Ixis :4sonic:
5th: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
5th: Gluttony :4wario2:, :4falcon:
7th: Purple H :4cloud2:
7th: Griffith :4bayonetta:, :4zss::4mario:
9th: S1-14 :4ness:
9th: Greward :4megaman:, :4bowser:
9th: Sodrek :4cloud2:
9th: QuiK :4zss:
13th: Afro Smash :4samus:
13th: Light :4sheik:, :4mario:
13th: Cat :4link:
13th: LoNg0uw :4rob:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:

1st: Ghostbone :4bayonetta:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Extra :4gaw:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:
4th: Ignis :4mario:, :4corrinf::4robinf:
5th: Poppt1 :4ness:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Leisha :4rob:
7th: Duon :4fox:, :4littlemac:
9th: Cmk :4sheik:
9th: Seymour Butts :4yoshi:
9th: Xettman :4link:
9th: Sable :4dk:
13th: Jollus :4marth:
13th: Zivhayr :4littlemac:
13th: Read :4fox:
13th: Invisi :4jigglypuff:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
2nd: Zinoto :4diddy:
3rd: Dyr :4diddy:
4th: True Blue :4sonic:
5th: WormyNugget :4diddy:
5th: Master Raven :4sheik:
7th: MVD :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
7th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Dath :4robinf:
9th: Saj :4bayonetta:
9th: Xaltis :rosalina:
9th: MuteAce :4peach:
13th: NickRiddle :4zss:
13th: 8BitMan :4rob:
13th: Streetshark :4sonic:
13th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: Xzax :4fox:
2nd: 3xA :4tlink:
3rd: Rice :4mario:, :4bowser:
4th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:, :4dk:
5th: FuTure :4ness:, :4pikachu:
5th: Hitaku :4mewtwo:
7th: Soronie :4shulk:
7th: Jehtt :4megaman:
9th: Trevonte :4sheik:
9th: Black_DynoWright :4littlemac:
9th: Nabster :rosalina:
9th: Sinister :rosalina:
13th: Krustol :4mario:
13th: Athena :4robinf:. :4corrinf:
13th: 8BIT|Nova! :4greninja:
13th: 8BIT|Roc :4rob:

1st: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4villager:
3rd: Brawlman1K :4sonic:
4th: iiGGY :rosalina:
5th: DKWill :4dk:, :4cloud2:
5th: Jayson :4fox:
7th: Cyan Can :4mario:, :4luigi:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
9th: Aerolink :4bayonetta:
9th: Jaehbock :4gaw:
9th: Makibaz :4bowser:
9th: Konga :4dk:
13th: Sage :4ness:
13th: Wolfei :4link:
13th: RedTux TK :4megaman:
13th: Elrox :4bayonetta:

EDIT: correct any errors etc
Has nothing to do with correcting anything, but as a point to note MuteAce :4peach: beat Zinoto :4diddy: 2-0 at TGL 9
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
607
NNID
User7a1
Tournies compiled for the weekend.

1st: Kamemushi :4megaman:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
3rd: Kirihara :rosalina:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Umeki :4peach:
5th: Taranito :4ness:
7th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
9th: Ke-ya :4robinf:, :4corrinf:
9th: Brood :4duckhunt:
13th: Gakuto :4ness:
13th: Jill :4fox:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Some :4greninja:

1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
3rd: iStudying :4greninja:
4th: Ixis :4sonic:
5th: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
5th: Gluttony :4wario2:, :4falcon:
7th: Purple H :4cloud2:
7th: Griffith :4bayonetta:, :4zss::4mario:
9th: S1-14 :4ness:
9th: Greward :4megaman:, :4bowser:
9th: Sodrek :4cloud2:
9th: QuiK :4zss:
13th: Afro Smash :4samus:
13th: Light :4sheik:, :4mario:
13th: Cat :4link:
13th: LoNg0uw :4rob:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:

1st: Ghostbone :4bayonetta:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Extra :4gaw:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:
4th: Ignis :4mario:, :4corrinf::4robinf:
5th: Poppt1 :4ness:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Leisha :4rob:
7th: Duon :4fox:, :4littlemac:
9th: Cmk :4sheik:
9th: Seymour Butts :4yoshi:
9th: Xettman :4link:
9th: Sable :4dk:
13th: Jollus :4marth:
13th: Zivhayr :4littlemac:
13th: Read :4fox:
13th: Invisi :4jigglypuff:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
2nd: Zinoto :4diddy:
3rd: Dyr :4diddy:
4th: True Blue :4sonic:
5th: WormyNugget :4diddy:
5th: Master Raven :4sheik:
7th: MVD :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
7th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Dath :4robinf:
9th: Saj :4bayonetta:
9th: Xaltis :rosalina:
9th: MuteAce :4peach:
13th: NickRiddle :4zss:
13th: 8BitMan :4rob:
13th: Streetshark :4sonic:
13th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: Xzax :4fox:
2nd: 3xA :4tlink:
3rd: Rice :4mario:, :4bowser:
4th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:, :4dk:
5th: FuTure :4ness:, :4pikachu:
5th: Hitaku :4mewtwo:
7th: Soronie :4shulk:
7th: Jehtt :4megaman:
9th: Trevonte :4sheik:
9th: Black_DynoWright :4littlemac:
9th: Nabster :rosalina:
9th: Sinister :rosalina:
13th: Krustol :4mario:
13th: Athena :4robinf:. :4corrinf:
13th: 8BIT|Nova! :4greninja:
13th: 8BIT|Roc :4rob:

1st: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4villager:
3rd: Brawlman1K :4sonic:
4th: iiGGY :rosalina:
5th: DKWill :4dk:, :4cloud2:
5th: Jayson :4fox:
7th: Cyan Can :4mario:, :4luigi:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
9th: Aerolink :4bayonetta:
9th: Jaehbock :4gaw:
9th: Makibaz :4bowser:
9th: Konga :4dk:
13th: Sage :4ness:
13th: Wolfei :4link:
13th: RedTux TK :4megaman:
13th: Elrox :4bayonetta:

EDIT: correct any errors etc
A lot of G&W'es this past weekend (including Regi getting 9th ar Key to Big House).
 
Last edited:

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Good **** to Gluttony too, especially in his matches against Mr. R. Even if it was a 3-0, all the games were very close considering how unfun the Sheik matchup is for Wario.
It's unfun in the sense that it's a slow and painful losing process, not in a sense that it's destructive. Wario has worse matchups against top tier characters than that. Sheik nerfs made the matchup quite manageable. Cloud and Diddy wall out Wario for days though.

Considering none of these moves were ever buffed significantly (fair the most, being -4 landing lag and -1 frame), I don't think Mewtwo was ever as bad as people originally thought he was.
1.) -4 landing lag is actually pretty brutal for a move that wasn't that laggy to begin with.
2.) -1 startup is also quite amazing if you put it on top of that.
3.) The usefulness of buffed!Fair is further enhanced by how amazingly well it synergizes with dtilt and airdodge now.
4.) As others have pointed out Mewtwo has received a considerable mopility buff.

I can't say for sure how good/bad Mewtwo truly was in the beginnig but considering how big those buffs are I'd say he was certainly a bad character. Maybe on the upper ranks of low tier.

:059:
 

PJB

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
70
Just something I noticed from syndicate- Mr. R really made me question mewtwo's possible advantage in the sheik matchup. He put sheik's up throw 50/50 on great display, it really looked like sheik has no trouble killing in that matchup specifically
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Just something I noticed from syndicate- Mr. R really made me question mewtwo's possible advantage in the sheik matchup. He put sheik's up throw 50/50 on great display, it really looked like sheik has no trouble killing in that matchup specifically
Mr. R also beat Abadango at BAM8, which is definitely something to consider.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,634
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
Das Koopa Das Koopa I used Ness in top 32 of DIAD2 vs Leisha as well as heavily during pools, and attempted usage of him vs Boozer (shield breaks are fun and tilted me into switching though).

Didn't get to use him as much as I'd like (I generally encountered MUs where Lucas was preferred this tournament), you're welcome to count him as a secondary, but he was still critical to my success.

PK kids, especially Ness had a BIG showing this weekend btw. Good stuff. :D

Also shoutouts to my fellow statesman @Invisi for getting top 16 with Jiggs (and Rosa)?
Reminds me, who did Taranito and Gakuto (its Gackt with different romanization right?) had to play in bracket?

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:
This one was free Mii?
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
Das Koopa Das Koopa uh, are there two players with the Mr. R tag? Apparently one competed at syndicate while the other one mains marth and competed at smashdelphia 2(according to your results chart). I wonder what happened to Mr e, I think he was a marth main competing at smashdelphia 2 as well. Hmm.
 
Last edited:

GS3K

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
595
Location
Kansas
NNID
Gamestar3000
Reminds me, who did Taranito and Gakuto (its Gackt with different romanization right?) had to play in bracket?

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:
This one was free Mii?
Smashadelphia was guest size, any moves iirc
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
Mewtwo was terrible in the beginning.
Look at the buff list:

1.0.8
Buff Neutral aerial's landing lag decreased: 19 frames → 16.
Nerf Up smash's initial hitbox size decreased.

1.1.0
Buff Forward throw deals 2.5% more damage: 10.5% → 13%.
Buff Down smash's knockback scaling increased: 112 → 118, improving its KO potential.
Buff Air dodge's animation slightly changed. If Mewtwo air dodges while holding an item, the item will disappear as well.

1.1.3
Buff Mewtwo walk speed: 1.1 → 1.2.
Buff Mewtwo dash speed: 1.696 → 1.9
Buff Mewtwo's air speed is faster: 1.15 → 1.25.
Buff Forward smash sourspot damage: 15% → 16%.
Buff Forward smash hitbox size: 2.0 → 3.0.
Buff Neutral air landing lag: 16 → 13.
Buff Forward air startup: 7 frames → 6.
Buff Forward air landing lag: 18 → 14.
Buff Back air x-axis offset: 5.1 → 5.5.
Buff Back air landing lag: 21 → 17.
Buff Up air damage: 9% → 10%.
Buff Up air landing lag: 16 → 13.
Buff Down air hitbox duration: 2 frames → 4.
Buff Down air landing lag: 22 → 18.
Change Down throw angle: 69° → 74°.
Buff Shadow Ball is slightly increased in size.
Change Shadow Ball deals less recoil.

1.1.5
Change Mewtwo is slightly heavier: 72 → 74.
Buff Mewtwo dashes faster (1.9 → 2.05), now being slightly faster than Sheik.
Buff Up smash ending lag decreased by five frames.
Buff Neutral aerial's multi-hits hitboxes are larger: 2.3u → 3u.

Nair Landing Lag was decreased twice.
Dash Speed was increased from ~1,7 to 2,05. DK had faster dash speed before, now Mewtwos Dash Speed is higher than sheiks.
Fair got 1 frame faster and farther.
Shadow Ball is bigger
Weight buff
Landing Lag and Hitbox increases throughout the whole moveset.
and muuuch more.

This character was garbage at the beginning.

and Cat isn't that impressive. He isn't even close to being the best Link in europe imo. At syndicate he got a dutch biased way too high seeding. He didn't get any super impressive win to get Top16 at Syndicate. Not saying he is not good, but saying he is the best Link in europe for sure just doesn't fit.
 

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
2,332
Location
South America
NNID
MontanaCity
Being able to kill Cloud somewhat reliably while on stage, where he excells, before he can jank you with LCS is very important. Lucina has to commit to a nair or a smash attack, maybe a jab > u/fsmash/shield breaker, to reliably kill on stage at reasonable percents, Marth is just gonna swing his sword. I can see why it would be more disadvantageous for Lucina than Marth. Just 'cause Komorikiri uses Lucina doesn't make the MU the same ratio as it is for Marth. That being said, 55:45 is hardly a bad MU.
inb4 edge guarding. we get it. if we keep bring up lucina's edge guarding when it comes to killing we're going to reach pikachu leveks of nauseam.

FLUDD is the only really problematic thing in the Mario/Cloud match up. Cloud's neutral is much, much better than Mario's and his advantage is just about as strong too. Part of the reason why FLUDD can be problematic onstage is just due to how Cloud players tend to jump a lot so they can abuse his godlike aerials and they get pushed farther back because of it. I'm still waiting for more Clouds to dash dance and abuse his ground mobility a bit more. It's even at best, but seeing as Cloud has a better onstage game that can allow him to prevent himself from getting knocked off as much, much better range, and is able to force an approach with Limit Charge and wall out with ridiculous aerials. Definitely Cloud's favor in my book.
Lucina can still pretty reliably KO Cloud on stage from what I have seen, Side Smash and setups into it are a big part of her game. I've never seen Lucina KO a Cloud onstage at anything that wasn't a reasonable percent. And yes, Edgeguarding. Marth and Lucina both do it pretty well. This is why I think it's even for both.
Actually the more I research about it, it really doesn't seem like Marth and Lucina have any kind of matchups that would be way too different.
Also, it's not just FLUDD that Cloud fears from Mario. Mario edgeguards Cloud basically for free with FLUDD, Cape and Back Air, Mario combos Cloud very easily as soon as he conditions him to shield, and Cloud doesn't often do much to reliably get out of them, and as soon as Mario gets in he can overwhelm Cloud very quickly. There's more to the game than just onstage play. Just watch how Mario wins against the best Cloud and you can see why people say this might be in Mario's favour.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
If Cloud doesn't retreat his aerials, Jiggs can whiff punish them all if they happen to miss the target. I think Cloud shouldn't be playing too aggro in the MU. Jiggs also wants to keep a low profile, staying close to the ground and using aerial autocancels. It's no worse than like Kirby vs. Cloud. High level Jigglypuff shouldn't be getting hit for free that easily.
If you are playing a cloud is whiffing ingredients air attacks the cloud player is awful. that isn't evidence that jiggs doesn't do poorly vs cloud. jiggs is an air based character clouds elite moves of nair and up air are nightmares for jiggs to deal with.
 

Ninety

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
350
Tournies compiled for the weekend.

1st: Kamemushi :4megaman:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
3rd: Kirihara :rosalina:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Umeki :4peach:
5th: Taranito :4ness:
7th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Nietono :4diddy:, :4sheik:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
9th: Ke-ya :4robinf:, :4corrinf:
9th: Brood :4duckhunt:
13th: Gakuto :4ness:
13th: Jill :4fox:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Some :4greninja:

1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
3rd: iStudying :4greninja:
4th: Ixis :4sonic:
5th: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
5th: Gluttony :4wario2:, :4falcon:
7th: Purple H :4cloud2:
7th: Griffith :4bayonetta:, :4zss::4mario:
9th: S1-14 :4ness:
9th: Greward :4megaman:, :4bowser:
9th: Sodrek :4cloud2:
9th: QuiK :4zss:
13th: Afro Smash :4samus:
13th: Light :4sheik:, :4mario:
13th: Cat :4link:
13th: LoNg0uw :4rob:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:

1st: Ghostbone :4bayonetta:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Extra :4gaw:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:
4th: Ignis :4mario:, :4corrinf::4robinf:
5th: Poppt1 :4ness:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Leisha :4rob:
7th: Duon :4fox:, :4littlemac:
9th: Cmk :4sheik:
9th: Seymour Butts :4yoshi:
9th: Xettman :4link:
9th: Sable :4dk:
13th: Jollus :4marth:
13th: Zivhayr :4littlemac:
13th: Read :4fox:
13th: Invisi :4jigglypuff:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
2nd: Zinoto :4diddy:
3rd: Dyr :4diddy:
4th: True Blue :4sonic:
5th: WormyNugget :4diddy:
5th: Master Raven :4sheik:
7th: MVD :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
7th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Dath :4robinf:
9th: Saj :4bayonetta:
9th: Xaltis :rosalina:
9th: MuteAce :4peach:
13th: NickRiddle :4zss:
13th: 8BitMan :4rob:
13th: Streetshark :4sonic:
13th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: Xzax :4fox:
2nd: 3xA :4tlink:
3rd: Rice :4mario:, :4bowser:
4th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:, :4dk:
5th: FuTure :4ness:, :4pikachu:
5th: Hitaku :4mewtwo:
7th: Soronie :4shulk:
7th: Jehtt :4megaman:
9th: Trevonte :4sheik:
9th: Black_DynoWright :4littlemac:
9th: Nabster :rosalina:
9th: Sinister :rosalina:
13th: Krustol :4mario:
13th: Athena :4robinf:. :4corrinf:
13th: 8BIT|Nova! :4greninja:
13th: 8BIT|Roc :4rob:

1st: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4villager:
3rd: Brawlman1K :4sonic:
4th: iiGGY :rosalina:
5th: DKWill :4dk:, :4cloud2:
5th: Jayson :4fox:
7th: Cyan Can :4mario:, :4luigi:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
9th: Aerolink :4bayonetta:
9th: Jaehbock :4gaw:
9th: Makibaz :4bowser:
9th: Konga :4dk:
13th: Sage :4ness:
13th: Wolfei :4link:
13th: RedTux TK :4megaman:
13th: Elrox :4bayonetta:

EDIT: correct any errors etc
I think that's Mr E on the Marth in Smashadelphia, no?
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
Reminds me, who did Taranito and Gakuto (its Gackt with different romanization right?) had to play in bracket?

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: Mr. R :4marth:
4th: Vex Kasrani :4dk:
5th: Sinji :4pacman:
5th: Biddy :4tlink:
7th: LingLing :4peach:
7th: Vivid :4corrinf:
9th: Chaos :4bowser:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: NTBD :4lucas:
9th: Vash :4marth:
13th: Blazing Pasta :4ness:
13th: Blazikus :4diddy:
13th: Tokyo :4ness:
13th: Dapuffster :4miibrawl:
This one was free Mii?
taranito beat Tsu-, Japan's best Lucario and prob the 2nd best one in the world (got top 8 at Umebura SAT), the Robin player Ke-ya who upset NAKAT, Gackt in Ness dittos, and a Meta Knight named Lickey. Lost to Kamemushi and VoiD.

Gackt beat Kisha's Mega Man (2nd best MM in Japan), Salena's Mega Knight (probably the 3rd or so best MK in Japan), and the Falco player Arc who got 17th. Lost to taranito and Earth.
 
Last edited:

Ethan7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Messages
208
NNID
BulbapediaEditor
He put sheik's up throw 50/50 on great display, it really looked like sheik has no trouble killing in that matchup specifically
I'm pretty sure Rich Brown could've double jump air dodged to consistently escape. Hitstun canceling is why (most) 50/50s exist. I think if you buffer a jump as Mewtwo you can still get hit by the up air as it gains height too slow, but this can be taken care of by air dodging right after jumping.
 

FeelMeUp

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
1,015
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
BathMonster
I'm pretty sure Rich Brown could've double jump air dodged to consistently escape. Hitstun canceling is why (most) 50/50s exist. I think if you buffer a jump as Mewtwo you can still get hit by the up air as it gains height too slow, but this can be taken care of by air dodging right after jumping.
Uair catches the few(2-3, maybe more) frames of vulnerability before your airdodge takes effect.

Credit to NegaNixx NegaNixx for the #3GNixxStats
Bayonetta's results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX* (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO minimally included)

Cloud: 9-6 (60% Win Rate)
Diddy Kong: 9-6 (60% Win Rate)
Fox: N/A
Mario: 3-3 (50% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 1-3 (25% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 1-7 (13% Win Rate)
Sheik: 4-11 (27% Win Rate)
Sonic: 4-2 (67% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 12-8 (60% Win Rate)

Bayonetta Players included:
Pink Fresh, Salem, Saj, Aerolink, Captain Zack, Ghostbone, 9B.

Bayonetta's results are post patch 1.1.6. only.
 
Last edited:

NegaNixx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
223
Location
Toronto
Uair catches the few(2-3, maybe more) frames of vulnerability before your airdodge takes effect.

Credit to NegaNixx NegaNixx for the #3GNixxStats
Bayonetta's results versus other top tiers (played by notable players) at Major Tournaments from EGLX* (April 29th-May 1st) onwards. (EVO minimally included)

Cloud: 9-6 (60% Win Rate)
Diddy Kong: 9-6 (60% Win Rate)
Fox: N/A
Mario: 3-3 (50% Win Rate)
Mewtwo: 1-3 (25% Win Rate)
Rosalina & Luma: 1-7 (13% Win Rate)
Sheik: 4-11 (27% Win Rate)
Sonic: 4-2 (67% Win Rate)
Zero Suit Samus: 12-8 (60% Win Rate)

Bayonetta Players included:
Pink Fresh, Salem, Saj, Aerolink, Captain Zack, Ghostbone, 9B.

Bayonetta's results are post patch 1.1.6. only.
Interestingn to note.

Rosalina results have stayed poor over time. Initial result of the MU was Salem vs Dabuz 2-1 in Dabuz's favour. Final result was saj vs Dabuz 2-0 in Dabuz' favour. The other match was Captain Zack vs Samsora 3-0 in Samsora's favour. The compiled Rosalina MU chart has the Bayonetta MU at -1 for Rosalina.

What aren't Bayonetta's doing or what are Rosalina's doing to get these results. And yes I realize these are players going against Dabuz but the question still stands. (Dabuz and Falln have this as Undefined and probably even respectively)

Another question, is Diddy vs Bayonetta more even then we thought? Diddy should win neutral with his more grab based turtling style. But his advantage is neutered by his lack of a ledge trap game against Bayo. saj vs Nietono exemplifies this as Nietono, who I'd say has the best Ledge trapping Diddy at this time, had a horrible time pressing his advantage to the same extent as he did other players... Does Bayo's stellar disadvantage significantly neuter Diddy's advantage to the point where it balances out their difference in neutral? Diddy's other supposedly stellar High tier MU Mewtwo actually has results that reflect the MU ratio (11-1 Diddy's favour against as opposed to 9-6 Diddy's disadvantage for Bayonetta)

VoiD is stellar in the Bayo match up.
8-1 against Bayo's (Pink Fresh and Salem.) Mr. R for reference is 3-3 against (Pink Fresh and Ikep) what makes one more effective than the other? FeelMeUp FeelMeUp ?

ZSS match up started off poorly but since has levelled out to a slight advantage to Bayo, with the last 8 games (3 sets) going in Bayo's favour (Marss, V115, and Nairo against Pink Fresh, saj, and Salem respectively) what are the nuances of this Match up, that might make it in Bayo's favour?
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Tournies compiled for the weekend.

1st: Kamemushi
2nd: Abadango ,
3rd: Kirihara
4th: VoiD
5th: Umeki
5th: Taranito
7th: Shogun
7th: Nietono
9th: KEN
9th: Earth ,
9th: Ke-ya ,
9th: Brood
13th: Gakuto
13th: Jill
13th: Lea
13th: Some

1st: Mr. R
2nd: Rich Brown
3rd: iStudying
4th: Ixis
5th: Jbandrew
5th: Gluttony ,
7th: Purple H
7th: Griffith ,
9th: S1-14
9th: Greward
9th: Sodrek
9th: QuiK
13th: Afro Smash
13th: Light ,
13th: Cat
13th: LoNg0uw

1st: Salem
2nd: 6WX
3rd: Mr. E
4th: Vex Kasrani
5th: Sinji
5th: Biddy
7th: LingLing
7th: Vivid
9th: Chaos
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: NTBD
9th: Vash
13th: Blazing Pasta
13th: Blazikus
13th: Tokyo
13th: Dapuffster

1st: Ghostbone ,
2nd: Extra
3rd: Luco
4th: Ignis ,
5th: Poppt1
5th: Boozer
7th: Leisha
7th: Duon ,
9th: Cmk
9th: Seymour Butts
9th: Xettman
9th: Sable
13th: Jollus
13th: Zivhayr
13th: Read
13th: Invisi

1st: ESAM ,
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Dyr
4th: True Blue
5th: WormyNugget
5th: Master Raven
7th: MVD ,
7th: DJ Jack
9th: Dath
9th: Saj
9th: Xaltis
9th: MuteAce
13th: NickRiddle
13th: 8BitMan
13th: Streetshark
13th: Duffo

1st: Xzax
2nd: 3xA
3rd: Rice ,
4th: KOSSismoss ,
5th: FuTure ,
5th: Hitaku
7th: Soronie
7th: Jehtt
9th: Trevonte
9th: Black_DynoWright
9th: Nabster
9th: Sinister
13th: Krustol
13th: Athena
13th: 8BIT|Nova!
13th: 8BIT|Roc

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: MJG
3rd: Brawlman1K
4th: iiGGY
5th: DKWill ,
5th: Jayson
7th: Cyan Can ,
7th: Cheezeballer ,
9th: Aerolink
9th: Jaehbock
9th: Makibaz
9th: Konga
13th: Sage
13th: Wolfei
13th: RedTux TK
13th: Elrox

EDIT: correct any errors etc
Change syndicate 2015 to Syndicate 2016, please.
10 :4ness: in top 16, 4 in top 8
7 :4diddy: in top 16, 6 in top 8
7 :4sheik: in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 :4fox: in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 :4sonic: in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 :4mario: in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 :4dk: in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 :4bayonetta2: in top 16, 3 in top 8
5 :4cloud2: in top 16, 4 in top 8
5 :4corrinf: in top 16, 2 in top 8
5 :rosalina: in top 16, 2 in top 8
5 :4bowser: in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 :4mewtwo: in top 16, 4 in top 8 (100%)
4 :4megaman: in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 :4robinf: in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 :4greninja: in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 :4rob: in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 :4littlemac: in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 :4peach: in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 :4lucas: in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 :4gaw: in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 :4zss: in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 :4marth: in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 :4link: in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 :4metaknight: in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 :4tlink: in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 :4pikachu: in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4wario: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4falcon: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4pacman: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4ryu: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4shulk: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4villager: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4luigi: in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 :4pit: in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 :4duckhunt: in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 :4samus: in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 :4yoshi: in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 :4jigglypuff: in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 :4miibrawl: in top 16, 0 in top 8 (Custom Moveset)

Screen Shot 2016-09-12 at 11.18.59 AM.png

Screen Shot 2016-09-12 at 11.28.10 AM.png

7-6.5: :4ness: :4diddy:
6-5: :4sheik: ( :4fox: / :4sonic: / :4mario: :4dk: )
4.5-4: ( :4bayonetta2: / :4cloud2: ) :4mewtwo:
3.5-3: ( :4corrinf: / :rosalina: / :4bowser: ) :4megaman:
2.5-2: ( :4robinf: / :4greninja: / :4rob: / :4littlemac: / :4peach: / :4lucas: / :4gaw: ) ( :4zss: / :4marth: / :4metaknight: / :4tlink: / :4pikachu: )
1.5-1: :4link: ( :4wario: / :4falcon: / :4pacman: / :4ryu: / :4villager: / :4luigi: )
0.5: :4duckhunt: :4samus: :4yoshi: :4pit: :4jigglypuff: :4miibrawl: (customs)
0: :4bowserjr: :4zelda: :4palutena: :4myfriends: :4kirby: :4dedede: :4falco: :4charizard: :4lucario: :4olimar: :4wiifit: :4drmario: :4darkpit: :4lucina: :4feroy: :4miibrawl: (default) :4miisword: (default) :4miisword: (customs) :4miigun: (default) :4miigun: (customs)

0.5 is a tie between every character who made it into top 16 but not top 8, with the exception of Link, who had multiple top 16s.


Most popular character combination: :4robinf: :4corrinf:
Notable winners: :4ness: :4lucas: :4link: :4dk: :4bowser: :4jigglypuff:
Notable Losers: :rosalina: :4myfriends: :4lucario:

Enjoy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom