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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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EternalFlare

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We live in the age of online gaming.

MU inexperience is not an excuse in 2016.

You lose to a char you don't know how to fight you deserve to lose because you are foolish and weak.
It's not an excuse but it is a factor in a game with a large cast, many of which are viable. I'm pretty sure even top players don't intensely study mid tier matchups.

You can actually roll out of a blocked neutral B from Robin but many just sat in shield and got grabbed. Robin's mobility sucks so he's definitely not punishing a back roll unless he hard read it and even then it's doubtful.

Robin also sucks at approaching in general. Several times I noticed players had a clear big lead against Dath and still went in hard anyway as he corner camped. They could have just chilled back, it was on Robin at that point to approach.
 

Murlough

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We live in the age of online gaming.

MU inexperience is not an excuse in 2016.

You lose to a char you don't know how to fight you deserve to lose because you are foolish and weak.
You watch alot of anime don't you? :laugh:

Even ZeRo suffered from matchup inexperience before. I dont think having 55 (or 58 if anybody cares enough about those 3) matchups to memorize per character you play is an easy feat.
 

vertime

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So Esam made 2nd at Shine 2016.

What's our thoughts on :4pikachu: now?
Still think Pikachu is crappy and ESAM is the only player I know worth watching who plays the little yellow ratbag.

Can we talk about Robin?
Never had a high opinion of Robin. Decent character, just slow. I feel it's just a drag to play but I can see the crazy power of that ol' lemon sword bein' a real kicker, dawg.

Throws gang sign
 
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Trunks159

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Maybe he says he doesn't like talking to Mii or Lucina mains because of their tendency to pontificate about their mains even in context where no one but them is interested in discussing it. And being a high-level and very recognizable player, I'd wager he gets a lot of people pestering him about them.

But hey, don't let me stop the "ESAM isn't all too smart" train.
I don't think I've ever agreed with someone's post as much as this.
 

Fenny

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I don't really get this whole 'you gotta memorise 55 MUs' thing.

The characters in this game aren't so incredibly unique that a separate strategy is needed to beat all of them. No matter what their moveset, they'll always fit into certain archetypes - whether they fit into one or a hybrid of them. For most of the characters in the game it's just about grouping like with like and making set counterplay plans for them. The extra bits on top that are unique to the character is up to you to research if you don't have the luxury of fighting a high level one in your area.

Obviously it's way easier said than done, but definitely easier than treating every character in the game like a special snowflake that you're at a loss to deal with when you run into one.
 
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Y2Kay

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If you consider your self a top player, match up inexperience is not an excuse. You should be prepared for any match up scenario when you come to a tourney.

People kill me when they john for elite players by excusing their losses on account of their ignorance.

It's easily one of the main causes of losses, if you haven't caught on to this and aren't trying to counteract it then you deserved to lose.

:150:
 

Emblem Lord

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You watch alot of anime don't you? :laugh:

Even ZeRo suffered from matchup inexperience before. I dont think having 55 (or 58 if anybody cares enough about those 3) matchups to memorize per character you play is an easy feat.
Tell that to King of Fighters players.
 

Krysco

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I only watched the Larry vs Dath set and as a Robin main who's practice buddy is a Fox main, I saw the mistakes. Gave him too much breathing room imo. Learned that I should land with uair more though. Maybe with Roy too. Similar hitboxes and it covers both sides.

I will say though that Robin is a silly character. I recall one moment of one of the matches where Dath threw out a fair then grabbed the ledge. Larry got hit by the levin sword being discarded and Dath got off the ledge against a character with terrifying ledge pressure just for that. I've done similar things before. Had a match with my cousin on Halberd where he took the first stock with me only doing 6% to his Falcon. Brought it back and won because I faired, whiffed and he dash grabbed me and threw me off stage, the levin discard knocked him off too and I killed him at the border with a bronze bair. Robin is silly~

Edit: Also, if what Goombo says is true about a secondary for Robin then that makes me happy :)
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Excusing matchup inexperience is excusing tunnel vision.

Basically it's giving top players permission to not play all the game.

It's a bad thing.
 
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Funen1

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I feel like if knowing so many matchups is gonna be difficult even for top players, it'll mainly be because knowing all the intricacies of every character to the same extent as dedicated mains (presumably top-level mains in this case as well) is a much taller order than doing the same for the mere one or two characters you play yourself. Granted, there's still a lot you can do to close this gap, with things like kill setups and typical combos being obvious things to learn, among many others, which is where the "matchup inexperience" argument does fall flat. But maybe some detail ends up slipping through in the shuffle, and then your opponent recognizes you don't quite understand everything he knows about that detail, so he finds a way to use it against you (results may vary, of course). From this point, it's also up to the first player to recognize something's up and try not to play into his opponent's hands too much, but I think the point is these situations are still at least possible when there's so friggin' much information out there. My stance is it's more important what you do afterwards in these situations (even if it's just "learn as you go") than getting hung up over knowing absolutely everything anyway.

This whole topic also doesn't consider the player vs. player decisions that go on beyond each character's tools, though the same approach can be applied to that too.
 

Nairo

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Is that such a strange thing to say?
Yes since she can be put in disadvantage states, she'd be the best character or a bit higher if she truly has no disadvantage states but it was just worded wrong lol


I meant to say she has very good tools to avoid being abused when she's in a disadvantaged position, especially against juggles. Good aerial mobility, down B to escape all sorts of traps and a very good recovery. Her disadvantaged state is one of the best ones in the game I'd say.

:059:
Ah okay my b I was confused because it looked like you compared her and mk in that regard but yea I see what you mean! You can read her getaways once the juggles start and stuff (OR BE DIDDY KAPPA). Never thought about it but would be interesting some kind of list to see who would have the least worry being in disadvantage states
 

FeelMeUp

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Larry does not play matchups. He plays every single matchup the exact same way and never adapts his strategies. He only wants to play his way, hyper aggro, all the time.
VoiD used to be the same way.
 
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Y2Kay

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I'm not necessarily saying top players need to know every match up; what I am saying is that if you know Dath is in your tourney and you don't even know what the percent window of Check Mate is for your character, and you lose . . .

. . . .please, just hold that L.

:150:
 

TheGoodGuava

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Larry does not play matchups. He plays every single matchup the exact same way and never adapts his strategies. He only wants to play his way, hyper aggro, all the time.
VoiD used to be the same way.
I noticed that too, he kept approaching Robin when he really doesn't have to

Whenever I actually get to fight a Robin whether it be FG, locals, online tourneys, or friendlies I don't see a reason to do anything other than just camp with lasers and shine. Robins mobility isn't good enough for them to punish anything, dash to shield is **** so if they try to run in after using a projectile its usually going to hit them. On the off chance that they do get to shield, free grab because Fox's mobility is godly. Sooner or later they're at 130 or so and I'm sitting at ~45 and I can just play super aggro until I get the stock

Now, I've only been against 4 different Robin players so I might be playing this matchup super wrong and they're just hot garbage so idk
 

Emblem Lord

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Yes since she can be put in disadvantage states, she'd be the best character or a bit higher if she truly has no disadvantage states but it was just worded wrong lol




Ah okay my b I was confused because it looked like you compared her and mk in that regard but yea I see what you mean! You can read her getaways once the juggles start and stuff (OR BE DIDDY KAPPA). Never thought about it but would be interesting some kind of list to see who would have the least worry being in disadvantage states
idk if you trolling bro but

"What is disadvantage?" Tier

Sheik
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Bayonetta

"With some thought I should be ok" Tier

ZSS
Meta Knight
Sonic
Pac-man

"Go for the ledge when you get juggled" Tier

Most of the cast

"Will never touch the stage again once juggled" Tier

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ganondorf
Roy

This is super broad of course
 
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NairWizard

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idk if you trolling bro but

"What is disadvantage?" Tier

Sheik
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Bayonetta
Diddy's disadvantage isn't actually that good, though, if you factor in
a) his recovery
b) his overall low airspeed and lack of a combo-breaking aerial (no f3- move)

He can monkey flip but most of the good characters have a way to catch him and make a read on the b-reverse/cancel. his n-air is only frame 8. There was a time when his up-air got him out of a lot of ****, but that time has gone.

Diddy only looks amazing in disadvantage against characters without the mobility to stay on top of him.

Agreed on the rest of your list though.
 

Goombo

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Whenever I actually get to fight a Robin whether it be FG, locals, online tourneys, or friendlies I don't see a reason to do anything other than just camp with lasers and shine. Robins mobility isn't good enough for them to punish anything,
You don't have to approach Fox as Robin, you just have to position yourself at midrange so you can punish lasers and reflector on reaction (both moves have a FAF of 40 frames or higher, every character in the game can punish this if he is somewhere near Fox). Then Fox gets dashattacked for using them and finds himself offstage.
 

Y2Kay

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idk if you trolling bro but

"What is disadvantage?" Tier

Sheik
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Bayonetta

"With some thought I should be ok" Tier

ZSS
Meta Knight
Sonic
Pac-man

"Go for the ledge when you get juggled" Tier

Most of the cast

"Will never touch the stage again once juggled" Tier

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ganondorf
Roy

This is super broad of course
Diddy's disadvantage is pretty booty if you ask me, Your gonna need to explain that.

:150:
 

TTTTTsd

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idk if you trolling bro but

"What is disadvantage?" Tier

Sheik
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
Bayonetta

"With some thought I should be ok" Tier

ZSS
Meta Knight
Sonic
Pac-man

"Go for the ledge when you get juggled" Tier

Most of the cast

"Will never touch the stage again once juggled" Tier

Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ganondorf
Roy

This is super broad of course
Gonna be the guy that slides in and adds Falcon to "will never touch the stage." Dunno how you forgot =P
 

Guido65

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Gonna be the guy that slides in and adds Falcon to "will never touch the stage." Dunno how you forgot =P
He also forgot :4littlemac:as his disadvantage state is just as bad as bowser dk and ganon if not worse.
 

TheGoodGuava

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You don't have to approach Fox as Robin, you just have to position yourself at midrange so you can punish lasers and reflector on reaction (both moves have a FAF of 40 frames or higher, every character in the game can punish this if he is somewhere near Fox). Then Fox gets dashattacked for using them and finds himself offstage.
Shine, much like shields, can be canceled immediately if an attack hits it within the first 4 frames of it being hit with a reflectable projectile. He can punish everything you try to
Also,If the player is using Fox's mobility correctly then they're going to be where they want, not where you want them to be. You're not going to consistently keep Fox at mid range when he can walk faster than you can run
 

FeelMeUp

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I noticed that too, he kept approaching Robin when he really doesn't have to

Whenever I actually get to fight a Robin whether it be FG, locals, online tourneys, or friendlies I don't see a reason to do anything other than just camp with lasers and shine. Robins mobility isn't good enough for them to punish anything, dash to shield is **** so if they try to run in after using a projectile its usually going to hit them. On the off chance that they do get to shield, free grab because Fox's mobility is godly. Sooner or later they're at 130 or so and I'm sitting at ~45 and I can just play super aggro until I get the stock

Now, I've only been against 4 different Robin players so I might be playing this matchup super wrong and they're just hot garbage so idk
Nah. This is actually exactly how you play the MU. and robin's one of the only characters you can get free reverse fair footstools on, btw. So if you just want a free gamesealer or comeback you can shop while facing away from ledge, fadeback, ff fair footstool and kill her instantly
 

PK Gaming

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Robin has good zoning and kill power, but **** mobility and recovery. He can muscle through tough matchups and punish very well but his disadvantaged state is bad and he gets gimped rather easily.

Because of these flaws he theoretically struggles against a lot of fast combo-heavy characters, but he made it pretty far despite this apparent setback. Who would a good secondary for Robin be?
Well with Robin, there are 2 options you can take.

Option A: Secondary (Cloud works. Anyone who doesn't get dunked by Diddy/ZSS works too)

Option B: Grinding matchups out.

Dath has clearly opted for option B. I think he did actually mess around with a few secondaries (Yoshi, Sonic?) but he always went back to Robin. I think it comes down to the type of person you are.
 

Ffamran

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I love reading your posts but man, you make me wish even more that Wolf was in this game. I swear, that's the only reason I ever even picked up Falco in this game, he's the closest thing to Wolf outside of custom Fox and Mii Swordfighter and even then, none of them have his air speed. Took me nearly 2 years to have a consistent main and secondaries in this game because of the lack of Wolf. And what do you mean when you say that his reflector would have been toned down? I know bair would have been, that move was crazy but shine?
When I mean toned down, I do mean that. Cranking volume 5 to 4. I don't mean drastically changing / nerfing it. If we go with how other reflects work in this game, if we go with Fox's, then Wolf's Reflector would probably not have 18 recovery frames and invincibility on frame 1. Wolf's Reflector is slower on startup than Fox's -- 5 frames slower compared to Brawl's and 2 frames slower compared to Smash 4's -- and reflects after its hitbox, but has, compared to Brawl Fox's Reflector, much lower recovery -- 18 to Brawl Fox's 26 -- and possibly a larger reflect hitbox. I don't know if they would keep the trait of Wolf's reflecting after its hitbox, but it probably wouldn't have 18 recovery frames. Smash 4 Fox's gained its Melee recovery sans jump-canceling which is 34 frames, so Wolf's might end up with 30-ish recovery frames. It's just I don't think the developers want a character to be able to spam a "holdable" reflect, especially Fox's since he can stall his fall. Wolf's doesn't, but 18 frames is a bit much for reflect. Mario's Cape has 22 recovery frames, but you have to factor in that it's frame 12 as a hit and only reflects in front of Mario for 15 frames starting on frame 6 to Wolf's frame 8 hit, reflect on frame 10 to until released reflect, and still having 4 less recovery frames. Now, if they changed it so Wolf's only reflects for a set number of frames, then it having 18 recovery frames would be fine.

Wolf's Bair out really had its disjoint being a problem. In context to Smash 4, its 9 landing frames would probably be increased to something like 15 frames. Same with maybe his other low landing lag aerials, Nair and Uair. I can see both of them having under 15 landing frames in Smash 4, though, or the higher landing lag, but ability to auto-cancel them if they couldn't already. That or Wolf wouldn't be allowed to auto-cancel it from a hop anymore meaning he'd always incur 9 landing frames which is kind of fine, but not really when a lot of other characters and of the Star Fox characters, all of them can auto-cancel their Bairs from a hop. Not a big deal, but the left knee / body hitbox might be removed like it had happened to Fox's and similarly, Falco and Sheik's since it seemed like the developers wanted Bairs to only hit back and not anywhere else like Nairs. There's also the 21 recovery, but I think that's fine. (Dr.) Mario and DK's have low recovery too, so it should be fine. Maybe a couple frames up like 24 or 27, but it's not really a big deal or a knockback change to keep its low recovery in check. That's pretty much it for Wolf's Bair.

Wolf might lose his unique Nair, though, considering how most aerials are similar. There aren't any Melee Falco and Fox Fairs, pre-patch Ganondorf Nairs, or in Smash 4 since he's not in nor are there any moves like his, Wolf Nairs. If it's a single-hit, it's a single-hit. If it's a multi-hit, then you bet your butt it's probably going to link somewhat well. Aren't any multi-hits that have each hit function like a late hit or a single-hit that has a multi-hit for its late hit or vice versa, or whatever you want to call Ganondorf's Nair -- his strong hit into weak hit Nair from that one patch was awesome. The best we got is a clean hit that's weaker than its late hit, Doc's Nair.

Wolf frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitWolf.php.
Wolf's compiled frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

I don't think it was a good idea for any Wolf player to jump on-board with Falco.
With the way Wolf moves and plays, I think it might have been better to go with Greninja or Roy. Greninja would have the similar projectile start-up and recovery, spacing aerials, albeit a bit slower, and the more zoning-based game play. Greninja can probably go on the offense faster than Wolf, but probably not as safe due to differing mechanics, especially aerials on-shield. What Greninja won't have other than fur is Wolf's lower jump, higher air acceleration and air speed, stupidly fast pummel, a melee hit for his projectile, and a reflect. Greninja has higher overall ground speed, natural disjoints, a kill projectile, and a kill and set-up throw -- not sure if any of Wolf's throws would kill or how they would work as set-up throws in Smash 4.

Roy would have the low jump of Wolf allowing him to space with aerials similarly, but Roy's aerials aren't going to be a "spammy" as Wolf's. There's also a "consistency" difference which makes sense since outside of Marth and Roy, most characters operate "normally" with some sweet- and sour-spots to Marth and Roy being built around the idea of sweet- and sour-spot placements. Play-style-wise, both Roy and Wolf can be aggressive characters and aggressive zoners, but I think Roy's going to have to be more aggressive since he can't really hang back like Wolf can with his Blaster. Wolf would still have the better air mobility since his air acceleration is much higher and his walk is a bit better since Wolf has a normal walk acceleration compared to Roy and the other FE characters. Wolf would also have the better recovery moves. Even if Wolf only used Wolf Flash, it's probably going to travel faster than Blazer. Like Greninja, though, Roy would boast higher overall ground mobility. Roy's also got natural disjoints, probably the better anti-airs also for that reason, etc.

Doc is also an option. Similar low jumps, similar startup on their projectiles, but much higher recovery on Doc's. Doc won't have Wolf's air mobility or even ground mobility which isn't saying much when their run speed doesn't go above 1.4. Doc might not be able to go off-stage like Wolf since his recovery doesn't have as much horizontal distance as Wolf's. In the long-run, yes since Doc can use Tornado and drift down more, but it won't be like Wolf who could drop off-stage and zip back without much of a problem. That being said, it's not to say Doc's off-stage game is worse than Wolf's. Can't really say since Wolf's not in the game and what changes would have happened that could affect his off-stage game.

Still, I don't think you should try to find a character replacement or force yourself to find a character who is similar and force a different play style. No matter who similar they can be, it just won't be them, especially if you're attached to the character. For example, Necalli is considered similar to Akuma in Street Fighter V, but Necalli isn't Akuma despite possessing similar traits to Akuma such as appearance-wise, red hair and "demonic" look and gameplay-wise, having a divekick and other stuff... I don't follow Necalli much. Necalli is, for one, not Akuma, and while similar even in gameplay, Necalli doesn't have Akuma's typical Gohadoken, a projectile variant, Shakunetsu, and while Necalli does have a dragon punch, it's not the Goshoryuken Akuma has. There's also some input differences; Akuma is purely motion while Necalli has some charge moves. It might be better to just find a different character overall. Even to the point where your Smash 4 main is someone like Captain Falcon who is night and day to Wolf -- Captain Falcon being a rushdown to Wolf's zoner -- or Bowser, a grappler, PAC-MAN, or Rosalina, the first puppeteer, summoner character in Smash.

That being said, I don't blame you. Considering the developers changed Falco's Bair with it ending up looking like Wolf's, Falco's Up Smash started out and still functionally resemble Wolf's, and internally, Falco has Wolf's fall speed and gravity, there are things that feel like Wolf when looking at Falco. Also high air acceleration like Wolf's, but it's not that big of a deal since Falco's air speed is much lower and Falco's air acceleration used to be slower than Fox's in Brawl and pre-1.0.8 Smash 4. Looking at it, I would also not be surprised if the change to Falco's Uair in 1.0.8 wasn't also Wolf-stolen. Different damage, but similar low overall knockback. Same startup too. Conspiracy theories aside, giving a character another character's stuff is probably something the developers shouldn't have done. For customs, at least you can wave it off for some characters as them being capable of doing them, but having difference preferences like Ness having Lucas's Specials or Luigi having Mario's Fireball as a custom, but giving Wolf's Bair animation to Falco? Kind of weird. Part of me feels like it's insulting to the Wolf players. Almost like, "Hey, guess who's not in the game anymore?" Yes, yes, there's only so much you can do for moves, but there could have been something else. I don't know, a crescent kick, turnaround side kick, or a weird upside-down flip kick? Why not an arm move to make play on Falco using his arms more than Fox? Ironically, Wolf uses more arm attacks than Falco and that was from the get-go.

Tell that to King of Fighters players.
Building off of this. Would Capcom vs. Marvel, Capcom vs. SNK count, and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom count as well? Also, Tekken Tag games? While not fighting games, I think players would have some basic MU knowledge in DoTA, HoN, LoL, Smite, and whatever else MOBA game. Starcraft, Warhammer, and other RTS games could count too, but more in terms of tactics and such. Basically, there really shouldn't be an excuse to not know what the **** is going on in a game. Yes, yes, Brawl and Melee mostly saw the same characters, but that's not normal compared to other games where it's more of popularity and having favorable MUs instead of select group of characters just dominate everything. Not sure about UMvC3 since there are at least some other teams, right? 64 had only 12 characters and all of them are still somewhat threatening similar to Smash 4's 50+ characters who aren't within the top 8 best characters.

Anyway, there's also the whole games like KoF force you to have to know how to play at least 3 characters competently. I wonder who's been doing that... Anti's the first one off the top of my head and he has a competent Cloud, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Sheik, Wii Fit Trainer who he may have dropped, and ZSS. 7 competently played characters. A possible 7 options to beat the living crap out of you. He might have a preferred character like everyone else, but he has options. I wished M2K had kept his Diddy, Mario, and Rosalina. Those 3 plus Cloud? There's also ZeRo who had Diddy and Sheik for a long time. Recently added Cloud to the mix.

At this point, part of me feels like solo viability is kind of pointless. It's great, but between having an arsenal of good / high tiered characters to finding the character who can deal with every situation, arsenal might be better. You can be good at everything, but not the best at everything. Diddy might have favorable MUs with everyone, but maybe having Meta Knight who is shown having a strong MU against Rosalina and perhaps a Bowser and Marth just for kicks is better than trying to do everything with Diddy. You'd have options and some are specialized options instead of having just one option where for some reason if it fails, you're just screwed.

Just a question to Emblem Lord and anyone else who can answer, is it common to stick with one character in games like Street Fighter? Snake Eyez has a Ryu for some MUs, so kind of like a DKWill situation, PR Balrog I think said he's keeping Necalli to back up his Balrog, and then there's Sako who's played multiple characters in SFIV and SFV. Even if they don't play them competitively, I do see players playing other characters competently like Momochi who granted does teach players, so it's probably a good thing he knows a lot about every character.
 

Ulevo

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I don't really get this whole 'you gotta memorise 55 MUs' thing.

The characters in this game aren't so incredibly unique that a separate strategy is needed to beat all of them. No matter what their moveset, they'll always fit into certain archetypes - whether they fit into one or a hybrid of them. For most of the characters in the game it's just about grouping like with like and making set counterplay plans for them. The extra bits on top that are unique to the character is up to you to research if you don't have the luxury of fighting a high level one in your area.

Obviously it's way easier said than done, but definitely easier than treating every character in the game like a special snowflake that you're at a loss to deal with when you run into one.
This is wrong.

If you are fighting Little Mac and he hits your shield with a forward smash, and you did not know that forward smash can cross up your shield and you whiff your punish, that can result in a stock instantly.

If you are fighting R.O.B. and he hits your shield with a Gyro, and you do not know that Gyro is instantly re-spawnable once it is gone, you might eat a second Gyro and be put into a tech knockdown.

If you are fighting Robin and do not know that Arcfire's last remaining hitbox is larger than the others, or that you have to time your roll so that you do not get hit during the early vulnerable frames of your roll animation, you could die to Arcthunder or Checkmate.

If you are fighting Cloud and he hits you with a jab combo, if you do not know to DI up, you're going to be put into a tech knockdown which Cloud's dash attack then covers 3/4 options.

If you are fighting Meta Knight and you DI down throw away at low percent instead of down and away, you might eat a Mach Tornado that is not guaranteed, like everyone that fights Ito seem to.

This game is all about situational awareness. If you do not have the specific correct answers to the questions being posed to you in the moment by your opponent, you are going to lose. Assuming you do not need to know these things because certain 'tests' look the same is lazy and the opposite of top player mentality.

The argument that there are 58 characters to learn in this game, thus it is difficult to be consistent, absolutely has validity. There is a lot to learn.
 
Last edited:

ぱみゅ

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The argument that there are 58 characters to learn in this game, thus it is difficult to be consistent, absolutely has validity. There is a lot to learn.
That's why we have various resources available:
-Netplay with random people to get a taste of various characters.
-Netplay with selected people to play against whoever you want.
-Online videos to watch players and matchups at all levels of gameplay.
-Communication channels
-Player finders
-Data hubs such as kuroganehammer.com
-Forums such as Smashboards where character-specific tech (for and against) is constantly discussed.
-The ability to pick a character yourself and understand its strengths and weaknesses.

We're not nearly as limited as we were with previous Smash games, and Smash's resources may actually be bigger than most other games' whose playerbase is not as big, such as Guilty Gear for example.
:196:
 

Krysco

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When I mean toned down, I do mean that. Cranking volume 5 to 4. I don't mean drastically changing / nerfing it. If we go with how other reflects work in this game, if we go with Fox's, then Wolf's Reflector would probably not have 18 recovery frames and invincibility on frame 1. Wolf's Reflector is slower on startup than Fox's -- 5 frames slower compared to Brawl's and 2 frames slower compared to Smash 4's -- and reflects after its hitbox, but has, compared to Brawl Fox's Reflector, much lower recovery -- 18 to Brawl Fox's 26 -- and possibly a larger reflect hitbox. I don't know if they would keep the trait of Wolf's reflecting after its hitbox, but it probably wouldn't have 18 recovery frames. Smash 4 Fox's gained its Melee recovery sans jump-canceling which is 34 frames, so Wolf's might end up with 30-ish recovery frames. It's just I don't think the developers want a character to be able to spam a "holdable" reflect, especially Fox's since he can stall his fall. Wolf's doesn't, but 18 frames is a bit much for reflect. Mario's Cape has 22 recovery frames, but you have to factor in that it's frame 12 as a hit and only reflects in front of Mario for 15 frames starting on frame 6 to Wolf's frame 8 hit, reflect on frame 10 to until released reflect, and still having 4 less recovery frames. Now, if they changed it so Wolf's only reflects for a set number of frames, then it having 18 recovery frames would be fine.

Wolf's Bair out really had its disjoint being a problem. In context to Smash 4, its 9 landing frames would probably be increased to something like 15 frames. Same with maybe his other low landing lag aerials, Nair and Uair. I can see both of them having under 15 landing frames in Smash 4, though, or the higher landing lag, but ability to auto-cancel them if they couldn't already. That or Wolf wouldn't be allowed to auto-cancel it from a hop anymore meaning he'd always incur 9 landing frames which is kind of fine, but not really when a lot of other characters and of the Star Fox characters, all of them can auto-cancel their Bairs from a hop. Not a big deal, but the left knee / body hitbox might be removed like it had happened to Fox's and similarly, Falco and Sheik's since it seemed like the developers wanted Bairs to only hit back and not anywhere else like Nairs. There's also the 21 recovery, but I think that's fine. (Dr.) Mario and DK's have low recovery too, so it should be fine. Maybe a couple frames up like 24 or 27, but it's not really a big deal or a knockback change to keep its low recovery in check. That's pretty much it for Wolf's Bair.

Wolf might lose his unique Nair, though, considering how most aerials are similar. There aren't any Melee Falco and Fox Fairs, pre-patch Ganondorf Nairs, or in Smash 4 since he's not in nor are there any moves like his, Wolf Nairs. If it's a single-hit, it's a single-hit. If it's a multi-hit, then you bet your butt it's probably going to link somewhat well. Aren't any multi-hits that have each hit function like a late hit or a single-hit that has a multi-hit for its late hit or vice versa, or whatever you want to call Ganondorf's Nair -- his strong hit into weak hit Nair from that one patch was awesome. The best we got is a clean hit that's weaker than its late hit, Doc's Nair.

Wolf frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitWolf.php.
Wolf's compiled frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

I don't think it was a good idea for any Wolf player to jump on-board with Falco.
With the way Wolf moves and plays, I think it might have been better to go with Greninja or Roy. Greninja would have the similar projectile start-up and recovery, spacing aerials, albeit a bit slower, and the more zoning-based game play. Greninja can probably go on the offense faster than Wolf, but probably not as safe due to differing mechanics, especially aerials on-shield. What Greninja won't have other than fur is Wolf's lower jump, higher air acceleration and air speed, stupidly fast pummel, a melee hit for his projectile, and a reflect. Greninja has higher overall ground speed, natural disjoints, a kill projectile, and a kill and set-up throw -- not sure if any of Wolf's throws would kill or how they would work as set-up throws in Smash 4.

Roy would have the low jump of Wolf allowing him to space with aerials similarly, but Roy's aerials aren't going to be a "spammy" as Wolf's. There's also a "consistency" difference which makes sense since outside of Marth and Roy, most characters operate "normally" with some sweet- and sour-spots to Marth and Roy being built around the idea of sweet- and sour-spot placements. Play-style-wise, both Roy and Wolf can be aggressive characters and aggressive zoners, but I think Roy's going to have to be more aggressive since he can't really hang back like Wolf can with his Blaster. Wolf would still have the better air mobility since his air acceleration is much higher and his walk is a bit better since Wolf has a normal walk acceleration compared to Roy and the other FE characters. Wolf would also have the better recovery moves. Even if Wolf only used Wolf Flash, it's probably going to travel faster than Blazer. Like Greninja, though, Roy would boast higher overall ground mobility. Roy's also got natural disjoints, probably the better anti-airs also for that reason, etc.

Doc is also an option. Similar low jumps, similar startup on their projectiles, but much higher recovery on Doc's. Doc won't have Wolf's air mobility or even ground mobility which isn't saying much when their run speed doesn't go above 1.4. Doc might not be able to go off-stage like Wolf since his recovery doesn't have as much horizontal distance as Wolf's. In the long-run, yes since Doc can use Tornado and drift down more, but it won't be like Wolf who could drop off-stage and zip back without much of a problem. That being said, it's not to say Doc's off-stage game is worse than Wolf's. Can't really say since Wolf's not in the game and what changes would have happened that could affect his off-stage game.

Still, I don't think you should try to find a character replacement or force yourself to find a character who is similar and force a different play style. No matter who similar they can be, it just won't be them, especially if you're attached to the character. For example, Necalli is considered similar to Akuma in Street Fighter V, but Necalli isn't Akuma despite possessing similar traits to Akuma such as appearance-wise, red hair and "demonic" look and gameplay-wise, having a divekick and other stuff... I don't follow Necalli much. Necalli is, for one, not Akuma, and while similar even in gameplay, Necalli doesn't have Akuma's typical Gohadoken, a projectile variant, Shakunetsu, and while Necalli does have a dragon punch, it's not the Goshoryuken Akuma has. There's also some input differences; Akuma is purely motion while Necalli has some charge moves. It might be better to just find a different character overall. Even to the point where your Smash 4 main is someone like Captain Falcon who is night and day to Wolf -- Captain Falcon being a rushdown to Wolf's zoner -- or Bowser, a grappler, PAC-MAN, or Rosalina, the first puppeteer, summoner character in Smash.

That being said, I don't blame you. Considering the developers changed Falco's Bair with it ending up looking like Wolf's, Falco's Up Smash started out and still functionally resemble Wolf's, and internally, Falco has Wolf's fall speed and gravity, there are things that feel like Wolf when looking at Falco. Also high air acceleration like Wolf's, but it's not that big of a deal since Falco's air speed is much lower and Falco's air acceleration used to be slower than Fox's in Brawl and pre-1.0.8 Smash 4. Looking at it, I would also not be surprised if the change to Falco's Uair in 1.0.8 wasn't also Wolf-stolen. Different damage, but similar low overall knockback. Same startup too. Conspiracy theories aside, giving a character another character's stuff is probably something the developers shouldn't have done. For customs, at least you can wave it off for some characters as them being capable of doing them, but having difference preferences like Ness having Lucas's Specials or Luigi having Mario's Fireball as a custom, but giving Wolf's Bair animation to Falco? Kind of weird. Part of me feels like it's insulting to the Wolf players. Almost like, "Hey, guess who's not in the game anymore?" Yes, yes, there's only so much you can do for moves, but there could have been something else. I don't know, a crescent kick, turnaround side kick, or a weird upside-down flip kick? Why not an arm move to make play on Falco using his arms more than Fox? Ironically, Wolf uses more arm attacks than Falco and that was from the get-go.


Building off of this. Would Capcom vs. Marvel, Capcom vs. SNK count, and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom count as well? Also, Tekken Tag games? While not fighting games, I think players would have some basic MU knowledge in DoTA, HoN, LoL, Smite, and whatever else MOBA game. Starcraft, Warhammer, and other RTS games could count too, but more in terms of tactics and such. Basically, there really shouldn't be an excuse to not know what the **** is going on in a game. Yes, yes, Brawl and Melee mostly saw the same characters, but that's not normal compared to other games where it's more of popularity and having favorable MUs instead of select group of characters just dominate everything. Not sure about UMvC3 since there are at least some other teams, right? 64 had only 12 characters and all of them are still somewhat threatening similar to Smash 4's 50+ characters who aren't within the top 8 best characters.

Anyway, there's also the whole games like KoF force you to have to know how to play at least 3 characters competently. I wonder who's been doing that... Anti's the first one off the top of my head and he has a competent Cloud, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Sheik, Wii Fit Trainer who he may have dropped, and ZSS. 7 competently played characters. A possible 7 options to beat the living crap out of you. He might have a preferred character like everyone else, but he has options. I wished M2K had kept his Diddy, Mario, and Rosalina. Those 3 plus Cloud? There's also ZeRo who had Diddy and Sheik for a long time. Recently added Cloud to the mix.

At this point, part of me feels like solo viability is kind of pointless. It's great, but between having an arsenal of good / high tiered characters to finding the character who can deal with every situation, arsenal might be better. You can be good at everything, but not the best at everything. Diddy might have favorable MUs with everyone, but maybe having Meta Knight who is shown having a strong MU against Rosalina and perhaps a Bowser and Marth just for kicks is better than trying to do everything with Diddy. You'd have options and some are specialized options instead of having just one option where for some reason if it fails, you're just screwed.

Just a question to Emblem Lord and anyone else who can answer, is it common to stick with one character in games like Street Fighter? Snake Eyez has a Ryu for some MUs, so kind of like a DKWill situation, PR Balrog I think said he's keeping Necalli to back up his Balrog, and then there's Sako who's played multiple characters in SFIV and SFV. Even if they don't play them competitively, I do see players playing other characters competently like Momochi who granted does teach players, so it's probably a good thing he knows a lot about every character.
Yeah, maybe that's why I quickly fell in love with Roy. Once I stopped treating him like Marth or Falcon and took advice from this thread on how to play the character, I instantly fell in love with him. Like, I picked him up just last month and he's already become my third best character since I've basically been focusing on only him for this month and last.

Greninja I'm not too sure about. I gave him a small try a while back, after the buffs and the nerf meme stopped but I didn't get too into him. Maybe I should give him another try. Got the regulars of Chainz and Fullmoon and surely others to give me advice on how to play the character properly and there's the likes of iStudying and Venia(?) to look at for high level play.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Just a question to Emblem Lord and anyone else who can answer, is it common to stick with one character in games like Street Fighter? Snake Eyez has a Ryu for some MUs, so kind of like a DKWill situation, PR Balrog I think said he's keeping Necalli to back up his Balrog, and then there's Sako who's played multiple characters in SFIV and SFV. Even if they don't play them competitively, I do see players playing other characters competently like Momochi who granted does teach players, so it's probably a good thing he knows a lot about every character.
in street fghter all top players play AT LEAST two characters at an elite level. umvc 3 most players can pull out at least 2 or 3 teams.
in the street fighter community saying or implying you didnt know the matchup and it wasnt week 1 dlc will get you no excuses or sympathy.
 

meticulousboy

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Any other thoughts on Peach's metagame? I know she may have a lackluster approach kit, but we have seen crazy edgeguards from her nowadays.
 

Goombo

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Shine, much like shields, can be canceled immediately if an attack hits it within the first 4 frames of it being hit with a reflectable projectile. He can punish everything you try to
I'm talking about using random shines in neutral how you suggested above, not about reacting to Robins projectiles. And since we're on it, you can't really react anymore with a shine to Robins projectiles if she is at midrange except when you are just standing there and waiting for it, in which case you are still not forcing an approach, just giving Robin a free thundercharge.

You're not going to consistently keep Fox at mid range when he can walk faster than you can run
I don't get what are you suggesting with this. Rushdown? That was my whole argument, Fox approaches Robin in the end. I never said he was bad at it or something.

Or run away, give Robin the full stage and shoot your lasers? If Robin just holds center stage she can Elthunder lasers from anywhere on reaction which severly outdamages them and puts Fox offstage.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?
It's almost as if people haven't realized yet that moving away from the opponent is an actual option, right?

^_^

:059:
 

Joey T.

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Just a question to Emblem Lord and anyone else who can answer, is it common to stick with one character in games like Street Fighter? Snake Eyez has a Ryu for some MUs, so kind of like a DKWill situation, PR Balrog I think said he's keeping Necalli to back up his Balrog, and then there's Sako who's played multiple characters in SFIV and SFV. Even if they don't play them competitively, I do see players playing other characters competently like Momochi who granted does teach players, so it's probably a good thing he knows a lot about every character.
I am actually really interested in this as well, in Smash you can see players switching their characters regularly, but I don't think that happens that much in more traditional fighting games, like SF.
One factor that, imo, causes this, is the differences between Smash games. In SF, characters don't usually change a lot between games (this is from a total beginner, correct me if wrong), while in Smash there are huge changes, to both the character and the mechanics of the game itself.

Getting the point of view of some who is really knowledgeable on this topic would be really nice.
 

blackghost

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I am actually really interested in this as well, in Smash you can see players switching their characters regularly, but I don't think that happens that much in more traditional fighting games, like SF.
One factor that, imo, causes this, is the differences between Smash games. In SF, characters don't usually change a lot between games (this is from a total beginner, correct me if wrong), while in Smash there are huge changes, to both the character and the mechanics of the game itself.

Getting the point of view of some who is really knowledgeable on this topic would be really nice.
theres a few point to know.
1. in street fighter or most other fighters you cannot change characters if you won the previous game. if you are going to play a secondary you ussually do it eiher after getting beat down game 1 or you will select your secondary from the beginning.
2. its like this because most games dont have a stage impact except in mortal kombat and in games like tekken or virtua fighter the stage is set to random despite some characters having an advantage in some stages.
these rules are callbacks to these games in arcades which smash doesnt have a culture of.
 

Emblem Lord

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When I mean toned down, I do mean that. Cranking volume 5 to 4. I don't mean drastically changing / nerfing it. If we go with how other reflects work in this game, if we go with Fox's, then Wolf's Reflector would probably not have 18 recovery frames and invincibility on frame 1. Wolf's Reflector is slower on startup than Fox's -- 5 frames slower compared to Brawl's and 2 frames slower compared to Smash 4's -- and reflects after its hitbox, but has, compared to Brawl Fox's Reflector, much lower recovery -- 18 to Brawl Fox's 26 -- and possibly a larger reflect hitbox. I don't know if they would keep the trait of Wolf's reflecting after its hitbox, but it probably wouldn't have 18 recovery frames. Smash 4 Fox's gained its Melee recovery sans jump-canceling which is 34 frames, so Wolf's might end up with 30-ish recovery frames. It's just I don't think the developers want a character to be able to spam a "holdable" reflect, especially Fox's since he can stall his fall. Wolf's doesn't, but 18 frames is a bit much for reflect. Mario's Cape has 22 recovery frames, but you have to factor in that it's frame 12 as a hit and only reflects in front of Mario for 15 frames starting on frame 6 to Wolf's frame 8 hit, reflect on frame 10 to until released reflect, and still having 4 less recovery frames. Now, if they changed it so Wolf's only reflects for a set number of frames, then it having 18 recovery frames would be fine.

Wolf's Bair out really had its disjoint being a problem. In context to Smash 4, its 9 landing frames would probably be increased to something like 15 frames. Same with maybe his other low landing lag aerials, Nair and Uair. I can see both of them having under 15 landing frames in Smash 4, though, or the higher landing lag, but ability to auto-cancel them if they couldn't already. That or Wolf wouldn't be allowed to auto-cancel it from a hop anymore meaning he'd always incur 9 landing frames which is kind of fine, but not really when a lot of other characters and of the Star Fox characters, all of them can auto-cancel their Bairs from a hop. Not a big deal, but the left knee / body hitbox might be removed like it had happened to Fox's and similarly, Falco and Sheik's since it seemed like the developers wanted Bairs to only hit back and not anywhere else like Nairs. There's also the 21 recovery, but I think that's fine. (Dr.) Mario and DK's have low recovery too, so it should be fine. Maybe a couple frames up like 24 or 27, but it's not really a big deal or a knockback change to keep its low recovery in check. That's pretty much it for Wolf's Bair.

Wolf might lose his unique Nair, though, considering how most aerials are similar. There aren't any Melee Falco and Fox Fairs, pre-patch Ganondorf Nairs, or in Smash 4 since he's not in nor are there any moves like his, Wolf Nairs. If it's a single-hit, it's a single-hit. If it's a multi-hit, then you bet your butt it's probably going to link somewhat well. Aren't any multi-hits that have each hit function like a late hit or a single-hit that has a multi-hit for its late hit or vice versa, or whatever you want to call Ganondorf's Nair -- his strong hit into weak hit Nair from that one patch was awesome. The best we got is a clean hit that's weaker than its late hit, Doc's Nair.

Wolf frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitWolf.php.
Wolf's compiled frame data: https://smashboards.com/threads/wolfs-frame-data-wip.319745/.

I don't think it was a good idea for any Wolf player to jump on-board with Falco.
With the way Wolf moves and plays, I think it might have been better to go with Greninja or Roy. Greninja would have the similar projectile start-up and recovery, spacing aerials, albeit a bit slower, and the more zoning-based game play. Greninja can probably go on the offense faster than Wolf, but probably not as safe due to differing mechanics, especially aerials on-shield. What Greninja won't have other than fur is Wolf's lower jump, higher air acceleration and air speed, stupidly fast pummel, a melee hit for his projectile, and a reflect. Greninja has higher overall ground speed, natural disjoints, a kill projectile, and a kill and set-up throw -- not sure if any of Wolf's throws would kill or how they would work as set-up throws in Smash 4.

Roy would have the low jump of Wolf allowing him to space with aerials similarly, but Roy's aerials aren't going to be a "spammy" as Wolf's. There's also a "consistency" difference which makes sense since outside of Marth and Roy, most characters operate "normally" with some sweet- and sour-spots to Marth and Roy being built around the idea of sweet- and sour-spot placements. Play-style-wise, both Roy and Wolf can be aggressive characters and aggressive zoners, but I think Roy's going to have to be more aggressive since he can't really hang back like Wolf can with his Blaster. Wolf would still have the better air mobility since his air acceleration is much higher and his walk is a bit better since Wolf has a normal walk acceleration compared to Roy and the other FE characters. Wolf would also have the better recovery moves. Even if Wolf only used Wolf Flash, it's probably going to travel faster than Blazer. Like Greninja, though, Roy would boast higher overall ground mobility. Roy's also got natural disjoints, probably the better anti-airs also for that reason, etc.

Doc is also an option. Similar low jumps, similar startup on their projectiles, but much higher recovery on Doc's. Doc won't have Wolf's air mobility or even ground mobility which isn't saying much when their run speed doesn't go above 1.4. Doc might not be able to go off-stage like Wolf since his recovery doesn't have as much horizontal distance as Wolf's. In the long-run, yes since Doc can use Tornado and drift down more, but it won't be like Wolf who could drop off-stage and zip back without much of a problem. That being said, it's not to say Doc's off-stage game is worse than Wolf's. Can't really say since Wolf's not in the game and what changes would have happened that could affect his off-stage game.

Still, I don't think you should try to find a character replacement or force yourself to find a character who is similar and force a different play style. No matter who similar they can be, it just won't be them, especially if you're attached to the character. For example, Necalli is considered similar to Akuma in Street Fighter V, but Necalli isn't Akuma despite possessing similar traits to Akuma such as appearance-wise, red hair and "demonic" look and gameplay-wise, having a divekick and other stuff... I don't follow Necalli much. Necalli is, for one, not Akuma, and while similar even in gameplay, Necalli doesn't have Akuma's typical Gohadoken, a projectile variant, Shakunetsu, and while Necalli does have a dragon punch, it's not the Goshoryuken Akuma has. There's also some input differences; Akuma is purely motion while Necalli has some charge moves. It might be better to just find a different character overall. Even to the point where your Smash 4 main is someone like Captain Falcon who is night and day to Wolf -- Captain Falcon being a rushdown to Wolf's zoner -- or Bowser, a grappler, PAC-MAN, or Rosalina, the first puppeteer, summoner character in Smash.

That being said, I don't blame you. Considering the developers changed Falco's Bair with it ending up looking like Wolf's, Falco's Up Smash started out and still functionally resemble Wolf's, and internally, Falco has Wolf's fall speed and gravity, there are things that feel like Wolf when looking at Falco. Also high air acceleration like Wolf's, but it's not that big of a deal since Falco's air speed is much lower and Falco's air acceleration used to be slower than Fox's in Brawl and pre-1.0.8 Smash 4. Looking at it, I would also not be surprised if the change to Falco's Uair in 1.0.8 wasn't also Wolf-stolen. Different damage, but similar low overall knockback. Same startup too. Conspiracy theories aside, giving a character another character's stuff is probably something the developers shouldn't have done. For customs, at least you can wave it off for some characters as them being capable of doing them, but having difference preferences like Ness having Lucas's Specials or Luigi having Mario's Fireball as a custom, but giving Wolf's Bair animation to Falco? Kind of weird. Part of me feels like it's insulting to the Wolf players. Almost like, "Hey, guess who's not in the game anymore?" Yes, yes, there's only so much you can do for moves, but there could have been something else. I don't know, a crescent kick, turnaround side kick, or a weird upside-down flip kick? Why not an arm move to make play on Falco using his arms more than Fox? Ironically, Wolf uses more arm attacks than Falco and that was from the get-go.


Building off of this. Would Capcom vs. Marvel, Capcom vs. SNK count, and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom count as well? Also, Tekken Tag games? While not fighting games, I think players would have some basic MU knowledge in DoTA, HoN, LoL, Smite, and whatever else MOBA game. Starcraft, Warhammer, and other RTS games could count too, but more in terms of tactics and such. Basically, there really shouldn't be an excuse to not know what the **** is going on in a game. Yes, yes, Brawl and Melee mostly saw the same characters, but that's not normal compared to other games where it's more of popularity and having favorable MUs instead of select group of characters just dominate everything. Not sure about UMvC3 since there are at least some other teams, right? 64 had only 12 characters and all of them are still somewhat threatening similar to Smash 4's 50+ characters who aren't within the top 8 best characters.

Anyway, there's also the whole games like KoF force you to have to know how to play at least 3 characters competently. I wonder who's been doing that... Anti's the first one off the top of my head and he has a competent Cloud, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Sheik, Wii Fit Trainer who he may have dropped, and ZSS. 7 competently played characters. A possible 7 options to beat the living crap out of you. He might have a preferred character like everyone else, but he has options. I wished M2K had kept his Diddy, Mario, and Rosalina. Those 3 plus Cloud? There's also ZeRo who had Diddy and Sheik for a long time. Recently added Cloud to the mix.

At this point, part of me feels like solo viability is kind of pointless. It's great, but between having an arsenal of good / high tiered characters to finding the character who can deal with every situation, arsenal might be better. You can be good at everything, but not the best at everything. Diddy might have favorable MUs with everyone, but maybe having Meta Knight who is shown having a strong MU against Rosalina and perhaps a Bowser and Marth just for kicks is better than trying to do everything with Diddy. You'd have options and some are specialized options instead of having just one option where for some reason if it fails, you're just screwed.

Just a question to Emblem Lord and anyone else who can answer, is it common to stick with one character in games like Street Fighter? Snake Eyez has a Ryu for some MUs, so kind of like a DKWill situation, PR Balrog I think said he's keeping Necalli to back up his Balrog, and then there's Sako who's played multiple characters in SFIV and SFV. Even if they don't play them competitively, I do see players playing other characters competently like Momochi who granted does teach players, so it's probably a good thing he knows a lot about every character.
SF players do tend to be char loyalists, but invest alot of time in learning diff matches and diff characters. Even on stream you will see players messing with many diff chars, but only play one or two in tourney.

It's always good to have a feel for what any given char is capable of.
 
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