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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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blackghost

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Between a Frame 11 Bair with no noticeable startup, 12 frames landing lag on that Bair, Frame 1 Bat Within, and a good fastfall, Bayonetta can cleanly approach characters with aerial spacing and tomahawking with it.

And tomahawking benefits Bayonetta more than anyone else, because again, Frame 5 counter that confirms to death at 40. Very easy to mixup with that as well to punish predicted tomahawk attempts.
on paper bair is used to approach in practical use its not.if you are scared of bayonetta coming at you with a tomahawk mixup just eat the grab. unless you are at 170 or higher fthrow isnt going to kill you. as opposed to bair which will start cleanly killing at 110-120 on most characters.
witch time leads to nothing garanteed and therefore calling it a confirm isnt really right.
also how is batwithin contributing to her approach?
witch-time is. not. an. approach. tool. its only an approach in a bayo mirror match.
but the other thing that confused me is if bayo can so easily approach why is she walled out so effectively by zoners
 

TDK

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We might get double :4peach: win doubles. Peach will take names today.

EDIT: never mind...
 
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Fenny

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Is there a second stream where you all are seeing this?
Nah, ANTi is just like a living upset notification function

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Wouldn't call it an upset tho imo, Capt. Zack is wildly underrated lmao
 
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ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
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Nah, ANTi is just like a living upset notification function

There was a problem fetching the tweet
No there are 2 streams lol. Fadgames was doing singles for awhile and now 2ggaming is starting singles. The Larry vs Captain Zack set was streamed so we have the Vod.A good portion of it was a Bayo combo, with Zack getting an early offstage fair 1 + 2 chain in one game.
 

Wintermelon43

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I'm starting to wonder if Bayonetta might be top 5 after all by this point..... She's at least top tier for sure by this point.
 

MistressRemilia

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How does doc do vs fox?

Can i get a video or thread on these 50% footstool combos? Especially interested in what he has on m2 and fox, and maybe Mario.

...

Not sure about the relative timing, did aba play singles after his doubles match? Because zero komo team is literally stealing souls, its bad. Like, i went past hype to sympathy by early game 2.
This video explains everything you need to know about Doc's footstool combos. This has expanded a bit since then, but the main point is that Doc has among the most fearsome grab games when he's up against Mewtwo: The general physics of Mewtwo are very helpful for combos of all kind in general, and he gets true combo'd / killed by Dthrow Fair at relatively low %, among with one of the largest range where the combo is indeed true.
The reason Doc does well against both Mario & Fox is completely different though. ( Doc v Mewtwo isn't good btw, as i just mentionned before, flowchart mewtwo is rather tough to approach: the advantage state overall is the redeeming quality that makes Doc v Mewtwo somewhat workable for us )
Doc generally does much better against pure brawlers than anyone else because most of them lack or have rather poor ways of outlaming the slow, yet threatening Doctor. This makes it so that against both of these characters, the neutral becomes a lot better for us, which is usually the main struggle in our disadvantageous matchups.
Against Mario, our raw power grants us the advantage in most trades,which is a key & undeniable advantage. Mario's mobility open up a few more options of course, but they're not matchup defining by any means. Overall, the two characters pros against the other ends up giving a rather even matchup that almost feels like a ditto.
Doc's fludity along with his punish game has a lot to do in why he does fairly decent against Fox, the amount of non commital options at our disposal to rival with Fox's are good enough to play a decent neutral against him. Add on the fact that we do fairly decent in disadvantage thanks to Fox's rather poor edgeguarding abilities and our Frame 3 option, and that we'll most likely survive longer than Fox thanks to Dthrow Fair working yet again, and Fox's rather commital ways of getting kills ( which against great OoS like Doc, obviously makes it rather tough )
 
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TDK

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Bracket A1:
Ally :4mario:
SS :4villager: :4ness:
ImHip :4olimar: :4duckhunt:

Bracket A2:
ZeRo :4diddy:
KOSSismoss :4gaw:
Cyro :4falco:

Bracket A3:
TLTC :4palutena:
Abadango :4mewtwo: (non-0 chance of seeing :4pacman: :rosalina: too)
Jey :4corrinf:

Bracket A4:
Nairo :4zss:
Rice :4fox: :4mario:
Tearbear :4falcon:

Bracket A5:
VoiD :4sheik:
S2H :4metaknight:
Saiki :4sheik:

Bracket A6:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
Renslay :4myfriends:

Bracket A8:
Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic:
Phoenix :4sonic:
Legit ???
Those are all the finished brackets. If you guys know who the players I didn't use, that'd be great. Will update or make a new post when more brackets are done.
 
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Das Koopa

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Renslay is Ike, Phoenix is Sonic, Saiki is Sheik, Rice is Fox/Mario
 

ShadowGuy1

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Bracket A1:
Ally :4mario:
SS :4villager: :4ness:
ImHip :4olimar: :4duckhunt:

Bracket A2:
ZeRo :4diddy:
KOSSismoss :4gaw:
Cyro ???

Bracket A3:
TLTC :4palutena:
Abadango :4mewtwo: (non-0 chance of seeing :4pacman: :rosalina: too)
Jey ???

Bracket A4:
Nairo :4zss:
Rice :4fox: :4mario:
Tearbear :4falcon:

Bracket A5:
VoiD :4sheik:
S2H :4metaknight:
Saiki :4sheik:

Bracket A6:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
Renslay :4myfriends:

Bracket A8:
Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic:
Phoenix :4sonic:
Legit ???
Those are all the finished brackets. If you guys know who the players I didn't use, that'd be great. Will update or make a new post when more brackets are done.
I'm pretty sure Jey is a Corrin


Also AC:4falco:beat WaDI:4mewtwo: 2-1.. I heard somewhere that the discords said it was in Falcos favor so idk.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
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An Ike got out of a pool with Larry Lurr and a good Bayonetta? O_o

Man I am falling behind on things if an Ike I've never heard of managed to pull that off.
Meh...he never ran into CaptainZack and lost to Larry 2-0. He beat Mr. ConCon 2-1, though.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I'm pretty sure Jey is a Corrin


Also AC:4falco:beat WaDI:4mewtwo: 2-1.. I heard somewhere that the discords said it was in Falcos favor so idk.
A Falco winning something for once is so refreshing lol. Especially against a top level Mewtwo. I can see how it's even but idk about winning for Falco. Falco's got great airborne combos that can mess up Mewtwo due to his floaty nature.
 

Das Koopa

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Komo broke the 17th curse. Beats Ito 3-2, and now he's set to fight Ally.
 

FamilyTeam

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Close match, but I'm sad Ally lost.
Cue all the people saying Mario loses to Cloud again, I guess?
Please, if that's gonna happen, just remember this was a pretty close 3-2, with 2 stocks on both sides.
 

Aaron1997

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I'm sorry but Aba needs to either Quit playing Pac or start playing and practicing him full time again. Pocket Pac's never work at top level and all he's doing his hurting Pac's Meta by showing up with a Pac like that. I can name 10 Pac players that are better then Aba right now
 
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FamilyTeam

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Man, Zero's insane tonight.
His game is on point, and he is mincing everybody. Incredible. It's been a while since I've seen Zero in this level.
 

TDK

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ZeRo :4diddy: 3-0 ANTi :4mario:

Rich Brown :4mewtwo: 3-2 K9Sbruce :4sheik:

Bracket's starting to fill out.

Xzax :4fox:
TearBear :4falcon:
Aarvark :4villager:
Falln :rosalina:
Zan :4tlink:
Tyrant :4sheik: :4metaknight:
TLTC :4palutena:
Soulimar :4olimar:

Ito :4metaknight:
Zenyou :4mario:
Abadango :4mewtwo: :4pacman:
Phoenix :4sonic:
 
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TDK

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UPSET: WaDi :4mewtwo: 3-1 ANTi :4mario:

EDIT: Not an Upset, but Ally :4mario: 3-1 Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:

EDIT2: UPSET: Elegant :4luigi: 3-0 VoiD :4sheik:
 
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D

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Elegant is playing out of his goddamn mind. This dude is putting Luigi on the map for sure. Get him outside SoCal and we could possibly see a rise in his perception.
 

DunnoBro

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its almost witch craft how a cool bayo clip brings out someone calling for her to be nerfed.
first off bayo getting 21 percent of what grab combo?
next what is this reffering too? "But she still has faaaar too safe set-ups for stocks at low percents" she gets most of her mileage on witch twist out of shield that will only kill you at low percent if your di assists her combo you.
"witch time which makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo"
you are aware most witch times happen when bayo is winning right? because people overextend on her trying to catchup. if you ar winning, make. her. approach. she doesnt approach well at all. sit in your shield and punish accordingly.
that combo above couldn't have been more situational using that as evidence is weak. hiro had a fresh witch time, on top of town and city, and facing a hufe enemey hurtbox so he had it easy to set up.
"makes it nearly impossible to keep extend a stock lead on bayo unless you're grab-centric"
ok this is the last time im going to say this: in a fighting game you must adapt and deal with your opponents tools menaing you have to vary how you play in a matchup. bayos respect witch time in mirror matches as well. you cannot mindlessesly press button on her stop complaining about it and go do something to get better at it.
you are the first person in a while to cal for bayo nerfs shes fine as. is she strong? yes. is she OP? lol not anymore.
Was actually in the middle of the post when that clip was shown, so it didn't have anything to do with the general message.

And uthrow > fair/witch twist at low percents (can just dtilt/witch twist if they airdodge through) You can see Salem consistently generating advantage at low % like this. There are of course other mix-ups, but as seen here uthrow can definitely set-up for absurdly low % stocks with rage. I just don't see how this is fair in any way. (This also brings up why dtilt is stupid too)

And "di assisting her combo" is a totally disingenuous way to frame it. It's a mix-up with her b-reversing, and and that high up you can't consistently know which way to DI/SDI.

you are aware most witch times happen when bayo is winning right?
Didn't specify when they happen most, I stated they just help her in both situations.

ok this is the last time im going to say this: in a fighting game you must adapt and deal with your opponents tools meaning you have to vary how you play in a matchup.
"Just adapt" doesn't really apply since a large chunk of the cast simply has poor reward off grab. She gets to play with her kit completely unhindered (which even ignoring witch time is superior to the majority of the cast) while lording over the threat of witch time during any stressful period. Having to cut many combos and strings short, lowering her damage intake for free or even crossing up with counterlandings.

And as I said, I only "think" these things. I'm not claiming or calling for anything, so don't try to paint me as some scrub who hasn't bothered studying and testing my theory. In fact I only came to this conclusion after practicing the MU all week in preparation for glitch. Only now that I understand my and her options do I really think she's still overtuned.

Surely, this is something only time can prove but overall it feels like I'm arguing pre-patch luigi. Yes, there's counterplay but the risk/reward skew against characters less proficient with said counterplay still seems overly severe.
 
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TDK

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Larry Lurr :4fox: 3-1 K9Sbruce :4diddy:
And with that, we have our top 8!

Winners:
Komorikiri :4sonic: :4cloud2:
Nairo :4zss:
ZeRo :4diddy:
Rich Brown :4mewtwo:

Losers:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
WaDi :4mewtwo:
Elegant :4luigi:
Ally :4mario:

K9Sbruce :4sheik: :4diddy: - Lost to Rich Brown :4mewtwo: and Larry Lurr :4fox:
ANTi :4mario: :substitute: - Lost to ZeRo :4diddy: and WaDi :4mewtwo:
VoiD :4sheik: - Lost to Nairo :4zss: and Elegant :4luigi:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2: - Lost to Rich Brown :4mewtwo: and Ally :4mario:

Ito :4metaknight: - lost to Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic: and Larry Lurr :4fox:
Zenyou :4mario: - Lost to Nairo :4zss: and WaDi :4mewtwo:
Abadango :4mewtwo: :4pacman: - lost to B7Games :4drmario: and Elegant :4luigi:
Phoenix :4sonic: - Lost to Komorikiri :4sonic: :4cloud2: and Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:

Xzax :4fox: - lost to Ally :4mario: and Larry Lurr :4fox:
TearBear :4falcon: - lost to Rice :4fox: :4mario: and Ito :4metaknight:
Aarvark :4villager: - lost to Ito :4metaknight: and Zenyou :4mario:
Falln :rosalina: - lost to VoiD :4sheik: and WaDi :4mewtwo:
Zan :4tlink: - lost to ZeRo :4diddy: and Elegant :4luigi:
Tyrant :4sheik: :4metaknight: - lost to ANTi :4mario: :substitute: and Abadango :4mewtwo:
TLTC :4palutena: - lost to K9Sbruce :4sheik: and Phoenix :4sonic:
Soulimar :4olimar: - lost to Zan :4tlink: and Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:
 
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Y2Kay

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I'm pretty sure Jey is a Corrin


Also AC:4falco:beat WaDI:4mewtwo: 2-1.. I heard somewhere that the discords said it was in Falcos favor so idk.
Most of the character discords are breeding grounds for scrub mentality. Never listen to them.

No way in hell Falco beats Mewtwo lmao.

:150:
 

Locke 06

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I'm sorry but Aba needs to either Quit playing Pac or start playing and practicing him full time again. Pocket Pac's never work at top level and all he's doing his hurting Pac's Meta by showing up with a Pac like that. I can name 10 Pac players that are better then Aba right now
You should be sorry, because he shouldn't make his decisions based on "hurting Pac's Meta."

He's playing for himself, not to encourage players to pick up the character. It doesn't matter if he's the #1 Pac or the #99, if he thinks his Pacman will work, he should go for it. Who are you to tell him he should stop playing a character?

Characters with such strong punish games (Luigi, Ryu, DK, heavies) theoretically get camped out by zoners like Pac and Mega, etc. However, the mechanics of smash 4 allows for zoning mistakes or outplays to get in (Powershields, aggressive rolls, high risk/reward burst options) and games can be taken.

The reason why the Diddy w/banana can be a top tier zoner is because his zoning results in a strong positional advantage he can abuse.
 

Yonder

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Larry Lurr :4fox: 3-1 K9Sbruce :4diddy:
And with that, we have our top 8!

Winners:
Komorikiri :4sonic: :4cloud2:
Nairo :4zss:
ZeRo :4diddy:
Rich Brown :4mewtwo:

Losers:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
WaDi :4mewtwo:
Elegant :4luigi:
Ally :4mario:

K9Sbruce :4sheik: :4diddy:
ANTi :4mario: :substitute:
VoiD :4sheik:
Captain Zack :4bayonetta2:

Ito :4metaknight:
Zenyou :4mario:
Abadango :4mewtwo: :4pacman:
Phoenix :4sonic:

Xzax :4fox:
TearBear :4falcon:
Aarvark :4villager:
Falln :rosalina:
Zan :4tlink:
Tyrant :4sheik: :4metaknight:
TLTC :4palutena:
Soulimar :4olimar:
Both Luigi and Mewtwo in the top 8 of this tourney ? Ahh, brings a smile to my bias face.

Mewtwo is on a roll though, taking up 25% of the top 8....sounds more impressive when in % form, but he is the most abundant character, even if Aba dropped the ball at 17th this time making it 3 Mewtwo in the top 20
 
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