Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Kung Fu Treachery]

i'm still bewildered as to how AC beat 6WX. i know 6WX hates being a "campy sonic" (and, by extension, hates winning i assume) but even aggro sonic should beat the sluggish, stubby, no-good-projectiles low tier that is Falco, right?

Definitely confusing, but the main strikes against Falco are he's slow and he can't force approaches because his laser is bad. If you aren't willing to camp him out, you play into his actually functional tools. Still a weird upset, though.

Edit: I don't know the frame data off the top of my head. Can Sonic outbutton Falco up close?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I can almost hear the "OKAY"s and back throw salt already


But serisualy, I didn't expect that at all. Rosalina was already falling off a little bit (Some people are even saying she isn't top 10 anymore), and now her #1 rep may be dropping her..... for Olimar.

It's actually pretty interesting.... If Dabuz does indeed completatly stop using Rosalina, she will probably have similar national results as Mega Man. An amazing player from Japan (Kirihara) and a great player from US (Falln). Although she has a larger playerbase so she'll probably still have better regional results. However, Mega Man will still have a better matchup spread than her. Rosalina's matchup spread is looking really questionable. She does really badly aganist Meta Knight and does bad aganist Cloud and Mewtwo, as well as having muitiple other losing matchups, such ad Mega Man and Falcon, sprinkled in there too. Going by this, It's possible that pretty soon, Rosalina will be.... worse than Mega Man? And she'd probably be worse than Meta Knight and Toon Link too if this happens.

Rosalina really seems to be falling recently.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Definitely confusing, but the main strikes against Falco are he's slow and he can't force approaches because his laser is bad. If you aren't willing to camp him out, you play into his actually functional tools. Still a weird upset, though.

Edit: I don't know the frame data off the top of my head. Can Sonic outbutton Falco up close?

Falco can outbuttom most of the cast up close, his problem is getting in and doing things

 

[ARISTOS]

I can almost hear the "OKAY"s and back throw salt already


But serisualy, I didn't expect that at all. Rosalina was already falling off a little bit (Some people are even saying she isn't top 10 anymore), and now her #1 rep may be dropping her..... for Olimar.

It's actually pretty interesting.... If Dabuz does indeed completatly stop using Rosalina, she will probably have similar national results as Mega Man. An amazing player from Japan (Kirihara) and a great player from US (Falln). Although she has a larger playerbase so she'll probably still have better regional results. However, Mega Man will still have a better matchup spread than her. Rosalina's matchup spread is looking really questionable. She does really badly aganist Meta Knight and does bad aganist Cloud and Mewtwo, as well as having muitiple other losing matchups, such ad Mega Man and Falcon, sprinkled in there too. Going by this, It's possible that pretty soon, Rosalina will be.... worse than Mega Man? And she'd probably be worse than Meta Knight and Toon Link too if this happens.

Rosalina really seems to be falling recently.

She has been falling for a very long time, it's just been a slow burner instead of a fast descent.

Her strong MUs are no longer as strong as they once were, while her weak MUs have remained a sharp negative.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

i'm still bewildered as to how AC beat 6WX. i know 6WX hates being a "campy sonic" (and, by extension, hates winning i assume) but even aggro sonic should beat the sluggish, stubby, no-good-projectiles low tier that is Falco, right?

It might be Sonic simply having a bad matchup against Falco (at least with MU inexperience). If I'm not mistaken, several other Sonic's like Seagull Joe have lost to Falco players in the past, so it may just be that.

Also, no reason to insult the way 6WX plays just because its not the most optimal, camping is mentally draining playstyle for both players involved the longer it goes on and that sort of playstyle may not be what 6WX enjoys as a Sonic player despite enjoying playing the character.

 

[TDK]

>Not a single Bayo in top 8 again
>People scream, cry, whine, and pout for a ban while shouting "Broken!" and "She Carries Players!"

Can this please stop?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>Not a single Bayo in top 8 again
>People scream, cry, whine, and pout for a ban while shouting "Broken!" and "She Carries Players!"

Can this please stop?

Nope.

At least, not those of us saying "its possibly going to happen in the future once they're perfected her more".

 

[NotLiquid]

>Not a single Bayo in top 8 again
>People scream, cry, whine, and pout for a ban while shouting "Broken!" and "She Carries Players!"

Can this please stop?

The only thing Bayonetta not being a Top 8 fixture proves is that she doesn't carry players. It doesn't prove she doesn't have explosive "best character in the game" qualities to her though. Diddy and Sheik don't particularly saturate the Top 8s anymore but that doesn't mean they aren't contenders for crazy status either.

Bayonetta cries won't be quelled for a long time. It doesn't help that her most successful rep as of late, CaptainZack, is largely considered an up-and-comer much like Tweek is to Cloud. She sees the kind of rep that's going to continually have people asking "what happens when these people become the cream-of-the-crop or when the most established players start picking her up?" Salem is the closest thing we got to that when he went on a warpath a few months back but he hasn't had the consistency to back that up in his recent results, but that may very well change soon for all we know.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

TRELA 3-1 MKLEO at https://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4

Finishing play: https://clips.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/ElegantBeaverCoolCat

 

[Peppermint1201]

The only thing Bayonetta not being a Top 8 fixture proves is that she doesn't carry players. It doesn't prove she doesn't have explosive "best character in the game" qualities to her though. Diddy and Sheik don't particularly saturate the Top 8s anymore but that doesn't mean they aren't contenders for crazy status either.

When was the last time a relevant 1.1.6 event had neither Diddy nor Sheik in the top 8? Has it happened ever? I'm pretty sure it hasn't. actually i think there have been just as many (or more) top 8s with both Diddy and Sheik in them as opposed to top 8s with only one of the two.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

And AC player reaches top 8 at Midwest mayhem saga. He plays rich brown first in top 8, and mewtwo vs falco is one of his favorite matchups.

 

[Vyrnx]

Do we need to say, "NO CHARACTERS TOP X BUT EVERYONE STILL WHINING," after every single tournament? It's so annoying.

For one thing it doesn't actually prove anything about a character.

 

[|RK|]

Trela over Leo 3-1

 

[|RK|]

Bayonetta cries won't be quelled for a long time. It doesn't help that her most successful rep as of late, CaptainZack, is largely considered an up-and-comer much like Tweek is to Cloud. She sees the kind of rep that's going to continually have people asking "what happens when these people become the cream-of-the-crop or when the most established players start picking her up?" Salem is the closest thing we got to that when he went on a warpath a few months back but he hasn't had the consistency to back that up in his recent results, but that may very well change soon for all we know.

I think that's obnoxious, tbh. VoiD was an up and comer - what happens when the most established players pick u-p She- oh, wait. Tweek ran through a bracket of strong players with DK. I think people really overestimate how much a character carries a player that's already good. I'm just waiting for CaptainZack to start wrecking people with some other non-Bayo character before people realize A) the man is good and B) Bayo isn't really that broken. She's extremely good... but not broken.

 

[HoSmash4]

>Playing Rosa for 2+ and practicing with every top player regularly
>Still beating those same top players who now have direct experience

People have known the matchup, it's just that now people know it AND their characters are advancing at a faster rate so even if she can win, winning with her requires very meticulous tactics and flat out correct guesses in 50-50 scenarios all the time, I prefer to play a game where I can win with a correct strategy that I just have to execute properly with minimal chances where I have to play RPS...but Diddy Kong is boring so I won't play him

Rosa is limited by lack of meta growth, and Cloud, and the fact that winning with her is a lot more guess work than you would expect, having to carry a character at top level for almost as long as YOU have been a member on smashboards isn't easy

If you want to be a nameless person trying to be a jerk, there's a special place for you, it's called twitch chat

 

[Rizen]

I don't say Bayo carries players or anything like that but if you look at the character ranking thread Bayo and Cloud are consistently ranked # 1 and 2.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
It's not like Bayo doesn't have results or results at top levels ie Salem.

 

[Nobie]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/830532341294571520

Not that I can speak from personal experience, but it looks like being at the forefront of your character's own meta is a lonely place to be, whether your character is top tier or bottom tier. There's the example of 2ManyCooks being pretty much the only major Dr. Mario, but even Abadango recently made a tweet about how a lack of Mewtwo development was making other characters look a lot more fun and enticing:

https://twitter.com/LG_Abadango/status/828234431315865601

Even Daigo in that recent lecture said, "A lot of people say they get tired of a game, but that isn't true. They get tired of not improving."

i'm still bewildered as to how AC beat 6WX. i know 6WX hates being a "campy sonic" (and, by extension, hates winning i assume) but even aggro sonic should beat the sluggish, stubby, no-good-projectiles low tier that is Falco, right?

This isn't the only example, but people seem to have really exaggerated ideas of how bad Falco is. Falco's slow on the ground, but it's not like he can't preventing camping. I mean, he does have a transcendent laser (albeit flawed), and a reflector that doubles as a projectile.

And Falco's normals aren't really stubby either. If you just generally look at Falco's frame data vs. Fox's, he's basically designed to have very slightly worse frame data to compensate for having longer limbs. Falco's only really slow when it comes to run speed, and while it means he can't get a ton of punishes other characters would, he can contend with a lot of other characters provided he's in that ideal footsies range.

The moment that stood out to me in AC vs 6WX was when AC took that last stock in Game 2. 6WX jumped up near the top of the screen to try and get away. That would've worked against a lot of other characters, but Falco has the highest full hop in the game, and the third highest second jump, meaning the up air reached easily.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'm just glad more people are realizing Bayo isn't broken. Very very strong but not broken. Im not ready to write Ness-Bayo as losing for Bayo just yet since S4 can be inconsistent at times. (I think it's even) but in theory if high grab reward is beating Bayo right now then similar characters might have a easier time with her

Just listing some not saying they all beat her but it seems really good grab reward seems to be Bayo's biggest weakness right now.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Here's a match of Awestin, a DFW Ness only main destroying a Bayonetta if this can help. He wins his locals plenty of times over even vs perceived bad matches like Rosalina and maybe Greninja.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrsIZ56ebn0&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RsxiBFswd1E23cLjBVcRAn&index=21

For those hype about Trela beating Mk Leo 3-1, he did it twice in winner's and grand's, here's the bracket again.

https://smash.gg/tournament/austin-...vi/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/91704/282677

Tomorrow is Smash Fight Club 81 (Houston's weekly). Javi will be there so I'm assuming Mk Leo will be there too. They also attended an Austin weekly before competing in ARFI. So expect ARFI and the weekly vods to be uploaded here. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0IFnuXRga1T4yeYRnBW8dg/feed

https://twitch.tv/smashunited (Smash Fight Club stream)

 

[FullMoon]

Even Daigo in that recent lecture said, "A lot of people say they get tired of a game, but that isn't true. They get tired of not improving."

Heh, now that you mention that, this is probably the reason I haven't been playing much Smash recently. I feel like I've gotten as good as I can get and now I got tired.

Maybe I should try new characters myself.

 

[TDK]

Austin's Really Feeling it 16 (163 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Trela
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: Karna
4th: Jerm
5th: Javi
5th: Lima
7th: Megafox
7th: Whispy

 

[Das Koopa]

2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga (February 11th) (Southern California) (331 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: TSM | ZeRo
2nd: P1 | Tweek
3rd: 2GG | komorikiri ,
4th: Ned (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
5th: MSF | Larry Lurr
5th: PG | Rich Brown
7th: CLG | VoiD
7th: LooK | AC , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th: Circa | 6WX
9th: Zinoto
9th: Samsora
9th: eM | Zenyou
13th: E2C | DarkShad
13th: Captain Zack
13th: KOSSismoss
13th: Jtails (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: SS ,
17th: DKWill (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Elegant
17th: UBCEA | Locus
17th: Tyrant
17th: CL | DSS
17th: Pulse | Ryuga (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
17th: Legit
25th: LH | Eon
25th: 2scoops | Nicko
25th: SAK | Strozai (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Ghost (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: K9 ,
25th: MJG (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Zan (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
25th: Shel (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

 

[TDK]

Tweek's DK did better than his Cloud, but that was disgustingly fast.

Does Tweek get the second spot because ZeRo already has one?

EDIT: For Starters, Civil War will be having all the top 50 ranked players getting travel vouchers for the event.

The only ones I see as likely to not be there are Ranai and Hyuga

 

[L9999]

Here's a match of Awestin, a DFW Ness only main destroying a Bayonetta if this can help. He wins his locals plenty of times over even vs perceived bad matches like Rosalina and maybe Greninja.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrsIZ56ebn0&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RsxiBFswd1E23cLjBVcRAn&index=21

Awestin still playing is the most interesting part to me. He was among The Ness players to look up to on early Smash 4, until he stopped getting mentioned and FOW/Shaky being too good. Also, Greninja has been agreed to be even, with the evidence being S1 and istudying going back and forth.

 

[TDK]

Team ZeRo:
ZeRo
Nairo
Larry Lurr
VoiD
FOW
Trela
Komorikiri
Ranai
MKLeo
ANTi

Team Ally
Ally
Dabuz
Kameme
Abadango
Pink Fresh
Zinoto
Ned
Mr. R
Marss
Mr. E

Ally's gonna get bodied

 

[|RK|]

Team ZeRo is incredibly broken.

Heh, now that you mention that, this is probably the reason I haven't been playing much Smash recently. I feel like I've gotten as good as I can get and now I got tired.

Maybe I should try new characters myself.

Well, I doubt you've gotten as good as you possibly can. But that's one thing about character loyalty - it helps you to stick with a character as you improve. If you no longer like your character that much, feel free to switch. But if you actually still enjoy them, there's always further to go.

 

[L9999]

Team ZeRo:
ZeRo
Nairo
Larry Lurr
VoiD
FOW
Trela
Komorikiri
Ranai
MKLeo
ANTi

Team Ally
Ally
Dabuz
Kameme
Abadango
Pink Fresh
Zinoto
Ned
Mr. R
Marss
Mr. E

Ally's gonna get bodied

I know this type of events always go against our expectations, but seriously, how is Ally winning this time? ZeRo himself is already the big deal, and he has Leo, Larry, ANTi, Komo, Ranai and VoiD, as well as Trela and FOW because the more the merrier.

 

[ARGHETH]

Zero has #1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14 , and 15 on the PGRv2 rankings.
Ally has #2, 7, 10, 11, 15, 18, and 24.
Zero also the winner of almost every major and super major, except for EVO 2016(Ally), KTAR Saga (Pink Fresh), GOML 2016(Ally), Pound 2016(Abadango) , and Umebura SAT (KEN). Team Ally has more second place finishers (since as far back as Das Koopa's thread goes, anyways) , at 7 to Zero's 5, while Team Zero has a lot more thirds (8 to 3).

 

[Rizen]

Team ZeRo is incredibly broken.

#BanTeamZeRo

To anyone who says is easy to gimp, you need to watch Scizor vs Elegant at 4:05 here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ned for best NA Cloud?

Captain?

 

[Fenny]

Team ZeRo:
ZeRo
Nairo
Larry Lurr
VoiD
FOW
Trela
Komorikiri
Ranai
MKLeo
ANTi

Team Ally
Ally
Dabuz
Kameme
Abadango
Pink Fresh
Zinoto
Ned
Mr. R
Marss
Mr. E

Ally's gonna get bodied

.....

So did Zero get the first 8 picks or...?

 

[ARGHETH]

.....

So did Zero get the first 8 picks or...?

The players picked which team to play for...Zero is just more liked, I guess.

 

[NotLiquid]

I think that's obnoxious, tbh. VoiD was an up and comer - what happens when the most established players pick u-p She- oh, wait. Tweek ran through a bracket of strong players with DK. I think people really overestimate how much a character carries a player that's already good. I'm just waiting for CaptainZack to start wrecking people with some other non-Bayo character before people realize A) the man is good and B) Bayo isn't really that broken. She's extremely good... but not broken.

I agree and ultimately that's kind of the point I was trying to make. First thing I said in my post was that Bayonetta doesn't carry players. It's easy for people to get that misconception when a lot of the less known top contenders start showing up after adopting a perceived top character which has been especially prevalent with the DLC characters.

Ideally people shouldn't be questioning whether a character carries players but whether a character enables the player's abilities, and unfortunately people don't do that enough.

 

[Fenny]

The players picked which team to play for...Zero is just more liked, I guess.

>Larry chose ZeRo over Ally

Top 10 Anime Betrayals

 

[ARGHETH]

>Larry chose ZeRo over Ally

Top 10 Anime Betrayals

"Because I'd much rather fight Ally than Zero" -Larry

 

[NotLiquid]

>Larry chose ZeRo over Ally

Top 10 Anime Betrayals

MKLeo on Team Zero is the biggest betrayalton here tbh

 

[ARGHETH]

MKLeo on Team Zero is the biggest betrayalton here tbh

He actually apparently considers Zero a friend.

 

[Frihetsanka]

2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga (February 11th) (Southern California) (331 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st: TSM | ZeRo
2nd: P1 | Tweek
3rd: 2GG | komorikiri ,
4th: Ned (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

Is Cloud a top 5 character? Some people have been saying that he's not since he doesn't place well in larger tournaments, but, well...

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Austin's Really Feeling it 16 (Around 100 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Trela
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: Karna
4th: Jerm
5th: Javi
5th: Lima
7th: Megafox
7th: Whispy

Can you add Toon Link to Jerm? From his stream matches he pulled out Toon Link on game 5 during Javi (won) and Karna.

EDIT: Going by your list, if whispy and megafox got 7th place, then does that mean Hakii (Lucas/Mewtwo), BC (Villager), GrimTurtle (?), and Archos Vulpes got 8th place?

Whispy also plays Diddy, i did not know he plays Jigglypuff.

 

[Fenny]

MKLeo on Team Zero is the biggest betrayalton here tbh

Nah, MKLeo and Ally have been almost like rivals since Canada Cup, and ZeRo is pretty tight with him

Larry and Ally's bromance is literally meme tier