Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Those loser runs were pretty hype.

That said still in the camp of, I see arguments in theorycraft and potential that Bayo is the best but results never line up with that at most results I see.

 

[iiJjRr]

I believe Shulk is going to be mid tier.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

ARFI 16 should be starting any minute now.

MK Leo, Javi, Hakii (Lucas/Mewtwo), Borond (Shulk), Oscar M (Shulk), Jawknee (Lucas), along with the resident Yoshi mains The Wall (sometimes Papa Wall, just know his tag will always have "wall" in it) and El Yoshi are here. Plus many more Texans.

Tune in!

Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/austin-s-really-feeling-it-16-ft-mkleo-javi/events

Stream: <https://twitch.tv/atxsmash4>

 

[|RK|]

Looks like the witch hunt is over, people are just burning them now lmao

For real though, the more I watch her, and the more I play her personally, the more I realize Bayonetta does have an actual killing problem. It's not even like Sheik where there's a huge misconception that she has killing problems, Bayonetta has almost no safe confirms and relies on WT/bair for most of her stocks.

OMG THANK YOU

I've been saying this lmao

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

We got 2GGC Midwest Mayhem Saga today, this is the projected Winners Top 48 (some Winners Finals in pools could go either way though, as shown here):

ZeRo VS Locus/DarkShad
6WX VS Ned
Larry Lurr VS Elegant
CaptainZack / SS VS Rich Brown / SlayerZ
Komorikiri VS JK / K9sbruce
Zinoto VS Samsora / DSS
VoiD VS Zenyou / Ryuga
Tweek VS Tyrant

Should be interesting.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

We got 2GGC Midwest Mayhem Saga today, this is the projected Winners Top 48 (some Winners Finals in pools could go either way though, as shown here):

ZeRo VS Locus/DarkShad
6WX VS Ned
Larry Lurr VS Elegant
CaptainZack / SS VS Rich Brown / SlayerZ / Shaky
Komorikiri VS JK / K9sbruce
Zinoto VS Samsora / DSS
VoiD VS Zenyou / Ryuga
Tweek VS Tyrant

Should be interesting.

Elegant actually can potentially get top 8. From my knowledge, Fox Luigi is not great for Fox and we know what Elegant can do vs Bayo.

Btw Elegant will be top 30 in PGR V2 just making that prediction. The dudes insane with a character most thought was falling.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Mk leo and Javi won ARFI doubles. He pulled shulk out for the second game in grand finals.

 

[L9999]

We got 2GGC Midwest Mayhem Saga today, this is the projected Winners Top 48 (some Winners Finals in pools could go either way though, as shown here):

ZeRo VS Locus/DarkShad
6WX VS Ned
Larry Lurr VS Elegant
CaptainZack / SS VS Rich Brown / SlayerZ / Shaky
Komorikiri VS JK / K9sbruce
Zinoto VS Samsora / DSS
VoiD VS Zenyou / Ryuga
Tweek VS Tyrant

Should be interesting.

Shaky playing at tournament? That's inpossible.

Mk leo and Javi won ARFI doubles. He pulled shulk out for the second game in grand finals.

MK Leo really likes his swordfighters. If he pushes Shulk's meta for whatever reason it will be fun.

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Shaky playing at tournament? That's inpossible.

Yeah he was on the entrants list so I thought he was there, but I just saw he's DQ'd so I'll just edit my post real quick.

 

[Rizen]

Shaky playing at tournament? That's inpossible.


MK Leo really likes his swordfighters. If he pushes Shulk's meta for whatever reason it will be fun.

Yea Shaky's back! I was worried he died in the Bowling Green massacre () I'd like to see more high level Ness play in tournaments.

edit, speaking of Ness:

Elegant's amazing. He's really pushing Luigi. It's great to see high tiers pop up in top major 8s. On that note, SlayerZ and Samsora have a killer double Peach team.

 

[TDK]

Shaky got Disqualified.

 

[Fenny]

SS 2-0 Captain Zack

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

No Shaky, but at least SS is there to fill the void. SS 2-0 CaptainZack

 

[Rizen]

Shaky got Disqualified.

What happened?

 

[TDK]

What happened?

He just didn't show up.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-2ggc-midwest-mayhem-saga-discussion-thread.445497/#post-21653313

 

[L9999]

No Shaky, but at least SS is there to fill the void. SS 2-0 CaptainZack

Does Captain Zack sucks against Ness or Ness is good against Bayonetta?

News flash: Samsora defeated DSS . I guess that it is a good thing since we say that : is -3 or something like that, but let's not get overhyped, the MU is still terrible.

 

[TDK]

Personally, here's what I'd say Bayo's bad MUs look like right now:

Bad:
Potentially Bad in the Future:
Bad on FD:


Just my thoughts, based on results + personal experience.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

AC 2-0 6WX with falco

 

[blackghost]

Personally, here's what I'd say Bayo's bad MUs look like right now:

Bad:
Potentially Bad in the Future:
Bad on FD:


Just my thoughts, based on results + personal experience.

been saying this for a while. she has issie with random mid tiers, they just are characters no one plays. there is no good reason for a ness to get witch timed. nor should they really be afraid of ot. licas and ness have good mus i think vs her.
luigi can striaght gimp her. and even s a bayo player that's funny.
link v bayo i have no idea.
but its hard for me to see her as "universally the best" *cough*zero *cough* when her mu chart is continously getting worse. and her results arent consistent. (anyone else used to seeing bayo place anywhere 7-16 but rarel top 4? shes the only top tier in this trend)

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/830532341294571520

I wonder what being a solo Olimar main would be like, I find myself unable to practice Rosa lately because she isn't fun anymore

Olimar isn't particularly fun but he doesn't have built in mechanics that make me hate myself for everything

I think just about every Rosa has dropped her in the past year, mainly because DLC is just too hard

And the Rosas left have been getting worse and worse results, it's hard to tell if it's a skill ceiling or lack of innovation

I feel like my tipping point is my Olimar being able to beat Ally, Fatality, Aba, Anti, ect. at points my Rosa couldn't do it

And the people I can beat with Rosa (Mars, Tweek, Mr.E, all Bayos), generally I can beat with Olimar

With few exceptions (such as vs. Sheiks), Rosa doesn't seem necessary anymore, I also have 10x the play hours with her than oli

I also have an extremely optimistic opinion of Olimar lately (I think top 10 IF NOT BETTER with proper optimization)

In theory:Beats Diddy, Marth, Megaman, Bayo, ZSS, Mewtwo, Ryu, Villager, Sheik, only loses to Fox, maybe Cloud if optimized

So yeah, for now I think I'll be practicing Olimar (and still Bayo) and really learn him like I did Rosa

Hopefully It'll make smash fun again, since right now I borderline hate playing the game which has killed motivation

I still practice helluva lot but it's significantly harder for me to improve on something if I'm forcing myself to

So yeah, Rant over TL;DR I hate playing Rosa now, I'm going to sharpen up the Olimar and see what happens

 

[ShadowGuy1]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/830532341294571520

Read at all the tweets below

Darn, that sucks for Rosas as many(like me) look to Dabuz for inspiration. Hopefully Kirihara or Falln travel more to help Rosa result wise, but it will be interesting to see how Dabuz's results change.

 

[NairWizard]

"In theory:Beats Diddy, Marth, Megaman, Bayo, ZSS, Mewtwo, Ryu, Villager, Sheik"

Dabuz

Okay, you gotta sell me on this one. My body's ready to hear the reasoning here, but consider me skeptical.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

"In theory:Beats Diddy, Marth, Megaman, Bayo, ZSS, Mewtwo, Ryu, Villager, Sheik"

Dabuz

Okay, you gotta sell me on this one. My body's ready to hear the reasoning here, but consider me skeptical.

I aint buying Marth, Mewtwo, Bayo, Diddy, or Sheik at all. All five of those scream to me "appear to be winning at first until the other side actually sits down and figures out the MU because its happening more often, then its even at best for Olimar".

 

[L9999]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/830532341294571520

Read at all the tweets below

I knew it! Ever since that tweet of "Olimar is my main." I suspected something was going on. It's not the end of the world though, an Elegant situation could happen (new blood proves a character who fell off is good), but for now Rosa is going to plummet down (if she hasn't already) and all that nonsense of "Rosa # 1" is over. Also, get ready for Olimar rising, it has been preached for ages he is very good yet no one cares (because Shuton's results and Myran's knowledge are nothing but hot air right?!) but since a USA top player will go with it everyone will.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

been saying this for a while. she has issie with random mid tiers, they just are characters no one plays. there is no good reason for a ness to get witch timed. nor should they really be afraid of ot. licas and ness have good mus i think vs her.
luigi can striaght gimp her. and even s a bayo player that's funny.
link v bayo i have no idea.
but its hard for me to see her as "universally the best" *cough*zero *cough* when her mu chart is continously getting worse. and her results arent consistent. (anyone else used to seeing bayo place anywhere 7-16 but rarel top 4? shes the only top tier in this trend)

To be fair. The whole beats talk . is Mostly due to just how crazy good Elegant is. Where is is just so insanely skilled with his main that he can make any (even bad ones) MU look in Luigi's favor at times. Elegant has even beaten Top and mains with Luigi and they are known to be his 2 worst MU's !! Its similar to the Ally or Leo factor when they play.

I am also not saying that Bayo also loses to lower tiered characters. I also belive she slightly loses to and . But Bayo is far from the only (Top 10 Characters) that have losing MU's or among the high-mid or lower tiers.

Examples.

loses to and (and is still considered by many to be in the top 3)
loses to
loses to

Even can sometimes have issues with depending on the stage

 

[Dabuz]

I aint buying Marth, Mewtwo, Bayo, Diddy, or Sheik at all. All five of those scream to me "appear to be winning at first until the other side actually sits down and figures out the MU because its happening more often, then its even at best for Olimar".

It's actually the opposite for all but Diddy, where initially it was impossible to win any of those matchups

 

[soniczx123]

It's actually the opposite for all but Diddy, where initially it was impossible to win any of those matchups

I'm honestly super interested on hearing your reasoning which compliments your opinion of Olimar in the current meta. Are you planning to write a huge post about it or make a video??

 

[FeelMeUp]

Is this a case of someone no longer finding a character fun when wins due to MU inexperience don't come for free anymore?

 

[Dabuz]

Is this a case of someone no longer finding a character fun when wins due to MU inexperience don't come for free anymore?

>Playing Rosa for 2+ and practicing with every top player regularly
>Still beating those same top players who now have direct experience

People have known the matchup, it's just that now people know it AND their characters are advancing at a faster rate so even if she can win, winning with her requires very meticulous tactics and flat out correct guesses in 50-50 scenarios all the time, I prefer to play a game where I can win with a correct strategy that I just have to execute properly with minimal chances where I have to play RPS...but Diddy Kong is boring so I won't play him

Rosa is limited by lack of meta growth, and Cloud, and the fact that winning with her is a lot more guess work than you would expect, having to carry a character at top level for almost as long as YOU have been a member on smashboards isn't easy

If you want to be a nameless person trying to be a jerk, there's a special place for you, it's called twitch chat

 

[Peppermint1201]

>Playing Rosa for 2+ and practicing with every top player regularly
>Still beating those same top players who now have direct experience

People have known the matchup, it's just that now people know it AND their characters are advancing at a faster rate so even if she can win, winning with her requires very meticulous tactics and flat out correct guesses in 50-50 scenarios all the time, I prefer to play a game where I can win with a correct strategy that I just have to execute properly with minimal chances where I have to play RPS...but Diddy Kong is boring so I won't play him

Rosa is limited by lack of meta growth, and Cloud, and the fact that winning with her is a lot more guess work than you would expect, having to carry a character at top level for almost as long as YOU have been a member on smashboards isn't easy

If you want to be a nameless person trying to be a jerk, there's a special place for you, it's called twitch chat

do you plan on training up your bayo or are you considering solo olimar for the future?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

do you plan on training up your bayo or are you considering solo olimar for the future?

He said in his twitter posts that he will be practicing olimar and bayonetta for now

 

[Nathan Richardson]

>Playing Rosa for 2+ and practicing with every top player regularly
>Still beating those same top players who now have direct experience

People have known the matchup, it's just that now people know it AND their characters are advancing at a faster rate so even if she can win, winning with her requires very meticulous tactics and flat out correct guesses in 50-50 scenarios all the time, I prefer to play a game where I can win with a correct strategy that I just have to execute properly with minimal chances where I have to play RPS...but Diddy Kong is boring so I won't play him

Rosa is limited by lack of meta growth, and Cloud, and the fact that winning with her is a lot more guess work than you would expect, having to carry a character at top level for almost as long as YOU have been a member on smashboards isn't easy

If you want to be a nameless person trying to be a jerk, there's a special place for you, it's called twitch chat

I'm super curious, what other characters do you consider 'boring' or what makes a character 'boring' for you? Is it when their strategies revolve around one move?

 

[Bowserboy3]

As a Rosalina player myself, this is very saddening to hear. With Dabuz no longer pushing our metagame, it's going to be a very harsh time for the rest of us - I can hear the "Rosalina is mid tier" posts roaring towards us already...

---

Dabuz

Again, it's very sad, especially when you consider it's a character you have used since release. Even if I wasn't doing as well with her anymore, I doubt I could outright drop her completely. It would feel like a waste of years of training. Are you 100% not even going to use her anymore (like, not even for a few MU's? Will she be used if your Olimar or others aren't working?)?

That said, if you truly just don't enjoy using her anymore, who are we to fault you? It's a fair enough reason, which I respect.

Best of luck with Olimar and whoever else you decide to use <3

 

[blackghost]

To be fair. The whole beats talk . is Mostly due to just how crazy good Elegant is.

while i do think elegant is an elite player not just in ability but in game decions as well, luigi as a character is a lot of things that bayo doesnt like.
combos off grab
strings she cannot bat within out of without getting reset
an edgegaurd that beats both her major recovery options
a playstyle that doesnt press many normals
a zoning tool
recovery options that aren't linear
the ability to kill her for bad landing
free punishes on read witch times thats a lot of elements in one character.

 

[Bowserboy3]

the ability to kill her for bad landing

THIS.

I don't think people dwell on this enough. Luigi's Super Jump Punch is an incredibly useful tool in this MU. Bayonetta cannot afford to drop a combo/finisher after she's used both of her ABK's.

But the notes about "strings she cannot bat within out of without getting reset" and "an edgeguard that beats both her major recovery options" are probably enough to make this good enough for Luigi. The rest are just bonuses.

---

Also, Luigi's Tornado is more than enough to gimp Bayonetta's recovery, but he also has this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkGOiP3Tj8w



for those who didn't realise

it's a joke...

 

[TDK]

2GGC: Midwest Mayhem Saga Top 48 (Note: Some of these matches have already happened)

Winners:
ZeRo vs Locus
AC vs Ned
Larry Lurr vs Elegant
SS vs Rich Brown
Komorikiri vs Jtails
Zinoto vs Samsora
VoiD vs Zenyou
Tweek vs Tyrant

Losers:
Legit vs Mr. Eric
S2H vs Shel
Ryuga vs Demitus
Zan vs B7Games
DSS vs ImHip
MJG vs Razo
K9Sbruce vs Colinies
KOSSismoss vs Dan
Pike vs Ghost
CaptainZack vs Seth
Tyroy vs DKWill
Teb vs Strozai
Charliedaking vs Nicko
6WX vs NiTe
DarkShad vs Saiki
Eon vs JK

 

[InfinitySoul]

I meant if Mario dtilts you for hanging on the ledge, he can then hit you with Fsmash pretty easily. You'll die at stupid low %, so it's best not to sit at the ledge at the range which he can do it (which I don't know, that's something to lab).

Now that you mention it, Mario could probably frame trap ledge roll and maybe standard getup with dtilt -> Usmash, but ledge jump and attack would probably bail you out.

It is turn around Usmash right ? (hit with the first hitbox)

I want to theoricraft if Pit has similar tool.
Dsmash is the only thing that hits below, but second hit has only 21 frames of lag. And our Usmash hit in front and start frame 6.
But Dsmash second hit has 18 frames of start up. So my opponent might react to it...

 

[NairWizard]

Is this a case of someone no longer finding a character fun when wins due to MU inexperience don't come for free anymore?

Dabuz is the gold standard for theory married to execution. He doesn't bank on MU inexperience to win matches (except when he refuses to friendly ZeRo out of bracket lol, but w/e).

 

[Das Koopa]

bayo has had a rough weekend

 

[Peppermint1201]

i'm still bewildered as to how AC beat 6WX. i know 6WX hates being a "campy sonic" (and, by extension, hates winning i assume) but even aggro sonic should beat the sluggish, stubby, no-good-projectiles low tier that is Falco, right?