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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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SaltyKracka

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The Bayonetta nerfs are hilarious and awesome entirely because of the attitudes they expose, and the schadenfreude that results from it.

I still have my reservations about the balance team and all the work that they haven't done, but at least with these changes they've flipped over the rock and exposed a great deal of the community to some much needed...Lumenosity.
 
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OFY

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Really excited to see what the real Bayonetta mains do with her from here on out, she is still an extremely solid character. Meta game advancing boyzzz
 

Das Koopa

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Bayo getting the only changes after 2 months should be indicative that this was probably the last balance change.

You would've been playing diddy Kong, sheik, ZSS, or whatever top tier.

You would've been fine. And Bayo probably wouldn't last against full-screen needles sheik, or kill confirm at 60% Uair = shine diddy Kong.
I wouldn't be fine because neither of my preferred characters (R.O.B, Fox) would be very good. Fox might have a leg up since he'd have his stupid jab infinite, but the point remains that the game would've collapsed under the weight of becoming a repetitive and boring spectator sport. Less viewers, less incentive to sponsor, less entrants, less majors, less exposure, etc.

Melee's lack of diversity is made up by the movement options and tech that make it engaging and allow for a diverse meta and constantly changing matchups/matchup perception. Smash 4 does not have the same depth in movement, meaning it'd take less time to "Figure out" the meta.

I don't see how Diddy grabbing is comparable to Shine at all. Shine requires skill and precision to use effectively. Against Diddy, it's a matter of "Don't get grabbed!" against a character with an astoundingly good neutral game that would've been quickly made apparent if players had been left time to not just coast by on Dthrow>Uair. The Shine is a versatile move applicable in numerous situations for numerous purposes, and Fox in general is extremely hard to use well in spite of how good his options are, but Diddy basically gets by free on grabbing > up airing you into oblivion. Players would start playing to avoid getting grabbed because of how devastating the consequences wold be. What does that spell? Less aggression.

The fact that a lot of gameplay would come down to "Don't get grabbed by Diddy/Sheik", "I'm going to run&gun with Sonic, "I'm gonna wall out and time out with Rosa", "Don't get hit by Bayo's combo starters", etc, the game would've inevitably become very defensive because displaying much of any aggression can be a death sentence and the game lacks the movement options for you to be extremely aggressive.

like I guess maybe it's "more fun" to you but the imbalance this game would've had would be very Brawl-esque, not Melee-esque. We aren't talking infinites, freestyle movement options, etc, we're talking about characters with oppressively good defensive toolsets and damage building

Brawl is its own thing and I'm not going to act like it's skill-less or uncompetitive but I'd really like to see Sm4sh thrive as a game and slowing the game's pace to a crawl and butchering its diversity are very good ways to kill the competitive scene. Brawl had many problems, but it's hard to deny that the speed and lack of diversity where two very huge issues, with little that's flashy to compensate for it.

Mind you I detest the idea of no patches even more because I don't even agree with the idea that Smash 4 is homogeneous. There are examples of certain character being worse versions of existing ones, but... most of the widely used cast is pretty distinct visually and in playstyle.
 

Amadeus9

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The Bayonetta nerfs are hilarious and awesome entirely because of the attitudes they expose, and the schadenfreude that results from it.

I still have my reservations about the balance team and all the work that they haven't done, but at least with these changes they've flipped over the rock and exposed a great deal of the community to some much needed...Lumenosity.
I think its sad that people treat nerfs like theyre retribution or something silly like that. I just don't really understand why we cant all unite under the mantle of loving to play this great game without bashing each other for the choices we make in game.

I personally have a great deal of sympathy for players of nerfed fighters. It's like losing thousands of dollars in terms of lost time. Then the player is suddenly behind everyone else because they have to play a different fighter to even think of getting the same results as before. Or to enjoy the game. Just to play catch up with those who chose to put their time into a different fighter. It just blurs things, stunts the growth of the metagame. What point is there in fully optimizing if doing so will get your fighter trashed? The devs are themselves contributing towards the uncompetitive attitude many smash players have.
 

ParanoidDrone

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pretty sure patches are over, this one seemed more like a bug fix thanks to public outcry, the fact that they only changed one char and no one else points to that
It wouldn't surprise me, but for some reason I get the impression that they'll formally announce when they're done with patches. They did it for DLC, after all.

Not going to say Rosalina is any worse than very good, just that she might be worse than amazing.

Is there any doubt that matchup inexperience may play a big part in her mid to high level results being as strong as they are, due to all the more or less consequential situations Luma creates if you're not fully aware of its mechanics or your intuition is lacking? At the top level this realistically shouldn't be a factor anymore so let's be fair and assume it isn't, but at the same time top level is the one place where Rosalina is relatively lacking.

Might there be some "noobslayer" element to this character that slowly wears off until she settles at wherever her (undeniably strong) tools let her settle at?
I'd say there are two categories of characters that have an easy time killing new players: mechanically unusual characters that have some sort of intrinsic gimmick, and newcomers. Rosalina happens to be both, and Luma happens to be powerful enough to make the character high tier even after everyone knows what she can do.

Do MVC players revel in the imbalance? Not trying to be snarkt, just curious if wanting balance is a part of the culture. I remember playing mvc2 and learning Four Gods stuff and not even worrying about it.
I'm only peripherally familiar with the Marvel fanbase, but I believe the inherent system mechanics (3v3, assists, 5 bars of meter) make it so that basically everyone plays it for the insane cheese. It also seems to prize movement options an awful lot for a more traditional fighter, at least compared to the likes of Street Fighter. Basically half the cast can airdash, fly, or teleport. Reminds me a bit of Smash, in a weird way.

It's important to know EXACTLY what the nerfs mean for Bayonetta before getting into a tizzy:

  1. She is never going to zero-death anyone with functional reflexes and/or basic understanding of SDI again.
  2. Divekick no longer has skewed risk-reward. It's a fast-moving safe-on-block poke, nothing more, nothing less (attack-wise).
  3. Witch Twist and Afterburner Kicks can be countered with SDI... BUT still give good combos if that doesn't happen. So they are still good tools, you just can't use them all the time to start or extend combos.

With all this in mind, this nerf will weed out the bandwagoners leaving only the dedicated Bayo players willing to explore all of her options.
I think her long-term viability will hinge largely on whether or not her players can figure out new combos and the like. Obviously nothing as strong as what she had before -- the nerfs did their job -- but I don't think she's really built for effective footsies and pokes.

Also, what does Japan think of her nerfs? Does anyone know?

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew
:4feroy::4ryu::4cloud2::4corrinf::4mewtwo::4lucas:
Not going to try and write up a dissertation on each, but in vague terms I'd say :4cloud: > :4mewtwo: > :4ryu: > :4corrin: >= :4lucas: > :4feroy:. I'm still not entirely happy with how easy it is for Cloud to charge Limit and Roy needs some love but that's really about it. Everything else boils down to preference and QOL.
 
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Das Koopa

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So, what's the info on Umebara? Attendee #? Any other tournies besides it and GOML this weekend?
 

ぱみゅ

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At this point, I'm fairly convinced that "This is the last patch" is pretty much a mere meme.
:196:
 
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Megamang

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Its a pretty solid gameplan to just say with utmost confidence that patches have ended, because eventually you will be right...


Regardless, im pretty happy with the current state of the game. Meta's aren't stunted by slight nerfs, and if you spent 1000 hours learning a instant kill setup you should have considered it was probably not long for this world, since they have targeted centralizing tools. Metas are stunted by a character that can do everything with his grab, or full screen needles. Low tiers are seeing a resurgence of results, because they actually have a fighting chance against many of the top/high tiers. Yes, their players progressing the meta has a part in this of course, but I know for a fact lots of people didn't bother with low tiers when they lost to needles and grab.

Fundamentals, and really most everything about your character, aren't lost when you can't kill from a grab constantly. I can't think of any nerfs they have done that somehow destroyed the work you put into a character, although Luigi kind of needed his stuff to be at the top he is still a meta threat and doing alright, with the only exception being MK's DA ladder kills.


And no character has a right to be a top tier, by the way. MK's ladder took lots of work, yes, but it also basically made obsolete other people's work when their mid tier floaty died to a dash attack at 20. I consider a change beneficial if it pushes more MUs towards even, allowing more people to play their character based on preference and not due to some horrendous MU.

Mostly im just saying Cocaine Logic is very prevalent with people when their character gets nerfed. Yes, it was a good tool for you and YOU might have had fun killing someone with the same reliable setup every game, but to suggest not having these tools is somehow homogenizing the cast is silly to me. SSHC is great in a lot of MUs, but I realize it probably shouldn't exist.
 
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OFY

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If Nintendo is working on a port for smash 4 on the nx would it make sense for them to stop patches? Genuinely asking.
If they are porting it with extra features, than IMO they're should be another patch. Or we could just get like a "final" version of the game that includes all dlc charas and stages with 1.1.6 being the last patch, similar to like MK9's Komplete Edition release.
 

Emblem Lord

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Game is apparently too balanced now so gotta look back to Melee and Brawl in a romanticized fashion for what a real fighting game balance should be like.

also gotta love that rushdown snake from brawl
This post right here.

This is the **** that makes life worth living.

****ing gold right here.

I do feel balance is overrated, but Brawl's metagame was in shambles and MK/IC's being completely borked was part of it. My issue with Smash 4 is everyone getting weaker. It's why I get hype for Mewtwo because he gets stronger and stronger, the way I feel patch cycles should be.
 

KamikazePotato

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My issue with Smash 4 is everyone getting weaker. It's why I get hype for Mewtwo because he gets stronger and stronger, the way I feel patch cycles should be.
The top tiers are getting weaker. Everyone else is getting stronger. There's been far more buffs to the cast than nerfs overall, you just don't care because people care a lot more about Diddy losing Hoo-hah than half the cast rising from unviable to viable (but not top tier). And really, while the top tiers have been made weaker, they've only lost stupid jank BS. Sheik and Diddy are still Sheik and Diddy.

And even if that weren't the case, it's generally a very bad policy to only buff and never nerf. It creates serious game design issues.
 

Charoite

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I'm intrigued why people only look for centralized tools that are only for the advantage state of a character, neutral or disadvantage arent as looked or complained as the former example: :4diddy: Banana is overturned, :4zss: side-B is still overturned, the same with:4sheik: up-B, but is fair because they can't kill.
I can't think of any nerfs they have done that somehow destroyed the work you put into a character, although Luigi kind of needed his stuff to be at the top he is still a meta threat and doing alright, with the only exception being MK's DA ladder kills.
What about Bayo side-B
 
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Megamang

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I think the weakening power level often alludes to Shiek's nerfs specifically. But, she was broken. Now, she has a unique problem killing where she has lots of setups, but they lack raw power. A hard read can still net a usmash kill early, and good edgeguarding (holy **** is Void good at edgeguarding) can get her very far.

And, something had to give on her. And a few of the top tiers. I like the way they did Shiek; even my mains losing MUs to her feel objectively fair. I do think they could be a bit more judicious with the buffs, but at the same time the balance is so close that people don't want another Bayo issue.

EDIT: Bayonetta's BnB specials could have been learned in an hour, and while it may be unfortunate for Bayos that they lost a good confirm/kill option, I don't see how it could invalidate work they have done on the character. Good reads, spacing, and taking advantage of bullets were always important, now she can't bulldoze her way through everyone's options. If anything Bayonettas will have to step up their game.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Emblem Lord Emblem Lord Oh man, you're going to hate Zero's latest video. He's talking about Ryu being underrated/overlooked and then has a clip of Trela talking in an interview wondering how Ryu hasn't been touched at all despite how crazy true Shoryu can be among other things (talks about it killing at 50% every once in a while and being like wtf?).

Also saying, I know you didn't like when I and other people thought True Shoryu was probably overtuned (mostly just in terms of kill power), but now you can add Trela himself and Zero to the mix.

Limit Cross-Slash doesn't kill quite as early at all and people still crib about it like crazy and yet True Shoryu is fine? Just saying :)... I admit I'm a bit afraid of Nintendo panic patching characters (like Link and possibly Bayo now) so if we're done with patches I'm perfectly fine with it.
Trela and I discussed this earlier today on facebook. My "brother" is the number 1 Ryu apologist I swear haha. My thing is this...Ryu's tremendous power that can be comboed into is his niche. It's what he does. That is his gameplan. REAL confirms into game ending conversions. He trades mobility for that. He trades having a linear recovery for that. He trades having smashes with no good kill power besides a spaced f-smash for that. Hadoukens can be swatted out of the air. His approach is very vulnerable to pivot actions on reaction. The man DOES have his issues despite the incredible power he has.

Take away that power....and why would you play this character in a competitive setting?

This is a serious question.

Next post will be about the Pit's I promise.
 

Charoite

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But isn't is that all of the top tier are getting nerfed the same way: low drastically the advantage state of the character: kill set up, damage kill power, etc, neutral is only toned down a bit, disadvantage state moves are never touched.
 

Teshie U

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Linear recovery doesn't matter much when its nearly unstoppable in most situations. Having weak smashes doesn't matter when you have far stronger and safer alternatives.
 

KamikazePotato

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Ryu's confirms are so strong that you could comfortably nerf them and he would still be very good. It is possible for a character to have weaknesses and for his strengths to still be too overpowering (as a lot of the top tiers have shown).

EDIT: To put it this way - there are characters with worse recovery, worse frame data, worse mobility, and worse neutral game (and no projectile) when compared to Ryu, and to get the kind of power Ryu gets on a True Shoryuken combo they would still need to charge a smash for several seconds.
 
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Das Koopa

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Good timing on the subject of Pit: Taiheita 2-0s Earth at Umebara 23. Both games were close and back-and-forth throughout, but still, very surprising.
 
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Aaron1997

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This is late but Choco lost to Lea. :4greninja: > :4zss: who then got destroyed by Fliip :4mario: the next round

Choco then Elimantes Umeki who finishes 49th. Umeki also lost to Fliip in winners Lol Japan
 
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SpectreJordan

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Sorry for being an idiot who's behind on everything, but I can't find a tier list pre-March. What's it looking like now? I'd be fine with one pre-Bayo nerf. I'm getting back into Smash 4 & want to stay updated lol.
 

Dusk Pit

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Emblem Lord Emblem Lord Oh man, you're going to hate Zero's latest video. He's talking about Ryu being underrated/overlooked and then has a clip of Trela talking in an interview wondering how Ryu hasn't been touched at all despite how crazy true Shoryu can be among other things (talks about it killing at 50% every once in a while and being like wtf?).

Also saying, I know you didn't like when I and other people thought True Shoryu was probably overtuned (mostly just in terms of kill power), but now you can add Trela himself and Zero to the mix.

Limit Cross-Slash doesn't kill quite as early at all and people still crib about it like crazy and yet True Shoryu is fine? Just saying :)... I admit I'm a bit afraid of Nintendo panic patching characters (like Link and possibly Bayo now) so if we're done with patches I'm perfectly fine with it.
My thoughts exactly.
 
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Aaron1997

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KEN LOST RAITO :4duckhunt: > :4sonic:
This is actually the 2nd time in a 1 month span that a Top level Sonic lost to a Duck hunt. This might be a sign that the match-up is evenish
 
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Charoite

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Ryu's confirms are so strong that you could comfortably nerf them and he would still be very good. It is possible for a character to have weaknesses and for his strengths to still be too overpowering (as a lot of the top tiers have shown).

EDIT: To put it this way - there are characters with worse recovery, worse frame data, worse mobility, and worse neutral game (and no projectile) when compared to Ryu, and to get the kind of power Ryu gets on a True Shoryuken combo they would still need to charge a smash for several seconds.
So why not nerf Ryu to make him more difficult to get the kill confirms or that if he fails to connect the kill confirm he is punished more severely??? why nerf Ryu advantage state that would make him more boring to play, when you can make him so he need to win neutral more often to connect the kill confirm??
 

Das Koopa

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No general consensus or anything? I know not to trust Eventhubs for that.
common wisdom generally places

:4sheik::4diddy::4zss::rosalina::4mario::4cloud2::4sonic::4fox:

as the top 8, in some order nobody knows

these are all high-ish to high mid or something:
:4mewtwo::4metaknight::4ryu::4rob::4pikachu::4villager::4ness::4falcon:

it gets really hazy after that
 

Quantumpen

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Nah, Lucario is a weird match-up for Mewtwo. He's crazy light and dies to that aura back-air at stupid %'s, and Tsu is a good player. So while I would've expected Aba to win it's not that crazy
 

Krysco

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Guess this is a convenient time to ask this given Das Koopa's listing of the generally agreed top 8.

With the talk of this game's balance and how everyone seems to be largely happy with it, what characters don't even have an even matchup with a single member of the top 8? Or is there any? Assuming there are any further patches, the answer to this question could be a good idea of who needs buffs in the future.
 
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