Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

Oh god... i hope you have something to back up your claim because you just started a battle and god know you're not going to win this.

I intent to start a ****fest then not participate, watch

Chariizard isn't bottom 10, bottom 20 sure, but not bottom 10
Either way, what exactly does Bowser have that makes him better than Charizard other than up b oos and his wonky upthrow kill confirm?

 

[Trifroze]

Hi guys, I've been lurking in this forum for a while and finally decided to join!

One thing that catches my attention is the lack of ZSS in the top 8 of this Umebura. Does she have any representation in Japan (besides Choco)?

Also, I think it's really nice the character variety this game has in the competitive scene, it's amazing how a character like DHD, who is generally considered low tier, can suddenly place 7th in a national.

Choco got bopped in pools from the looks of it and I haven't heard of anyone else notable. With our ZSS overlords Nairo and Choco getting 49th and less than 64th respectively, it might be fair to say ZSS counterplay (and nerfs) are starting to show. I wonder what kind of counterplay ZSS can develop in return against people who focus on staying grounded and rolling, it's a really annoying playstyle to deal with for her since none of her aerials hit grounded opponents except upon falling down, and dash grab / dash attack are both unsafe.

What comes to her aerials, the opponent can stay grounded and react to ZSS' jump and powershield her landings every time, and not much is lost if she empty hops instead because then the opponent can roll forward/back/spotdodge to avoid grab as soon as they react to no aerial hitting their shield, so best she can do is read one of those three options or empty hop into a faster, less rewarding option like jab or ftilt.

Grab used to be high risk, very high reward most of the time, but with the reduced active frames of her grab it now almost never catches defensive options so it's less likely to work, and because of the knockback changes of dthrow and the rather considerable damage nerfs to dthrow and uair landing grabs tends to be much less rewarding even when you connect with one. Specifically, bread and butter combo does 5-6% less fresh, and dthrow no longer kills at high percents except upon a correct 50:50 read at narrow ranges that are dependent on rage. ZSS' grab seems like straight up high risk high reward now, and when compared to what she could do previously it kind of sucks, but she does feel pretty balanced now with much clearer weaknesses. Nair being less safe due to a damage nerf with less range helps her opponents as well.

Dash attack though, it's actually kind of bad except purely as a punish option when nothing else is fast enough from that distance. I guess slow characters can have trouble punishing it, but the endlag is ridiculous compared to how unrewarding it is. Though, along with her dtilt, this is mostly just a personal complaint from someone who wants his character to have a perfect moveset.

But yeah, the counterplay to ZSS is to play reactive and patient. The counter-counterplay is probably just mix ups to mess with those reactions and trying to read and react to the opponent's defensive patterns. Hey, that sounds like actual effort, maybe ZSS isn't a top tier anymore?

 

[C0rvus]

I intent to start a ****fest then not participate, watch

Chariizard isn't bottom 10, bottom 20 sure, but not bottom 10
Either way, what exactly does Bowser have that makes him better than Charizard other than up b oos and his wonky upthrow kill confirm?

Much better damage output, his jab > grab is better, better traction, the best pivot grab in the universe, the ability to threaten a shield break, 2 decent positional kill throws while still having a kill confirm off of a grab that kills before Zard's up throw, Tough Guy, better aerials for edgeguarding, a command grab, and Fortress out of shield too. He is a consistently threatening character who makes you afraid of shielding, wary of approaching because of pivot grab and intangible tilts, and as a heavy, he can almost always kill you. He just works better as a character.

 

[Nekoo]

But yeah, the counterplay to ZSS is to play reactive and patient. The counter-counterplay is probably just mix ups to mess with those reactions and trying to read and react to the opponent's defensive patterns. Hey, that sounds like actual effort, maybe ZSS isn't a top tier anymore?

You mean she's finally a balanced character where the other character have a chance against her? You almost got me surprised!

I intent to start a ****fest then not participate, watch

Chariizard isn't bottom 10, bottom 20 sure, but not bottom 10
Either way, what exactly does Bowser have that makes him better than Charizard other than up b oos and his wonky upthrow kill confirm?

First there his Weight. Bowser will survive longer. While his jab is slower his arm is intengible and will alway clash even when a stronger thing will hit him. A kill Confirm which is something big in this game. His side-b shenanigan. Jab>Grab. Traction, pivot grab yadda yadda....

 

[Y2Kay]

You mean she's finally a balanced character where the other character have a chance against her? You almost got me surprised!

Well . . . .that is what he said.

 

[Nekoo]

You know... I begin to think that i need to have a big Anime girl sarcasm image each time i post.

Or a neon sarcasm sign.

 

[Y2Kay]

You know... I begin to think that i need to have a big Anime girl sarcasm image each time i post.

Or a neon sarcasm sign.

Naw man, a or will suffice

but ZSS being more balanced was his entire point. You where being sarcastic like he was complaining like he was in denial about it, or didn't acknowledge it

 

[Ikes]

Also Wario's u throw -> uair (24%) is a true combo at low percents, no?

And plus, Wario's throws deal good damage (7%/8%/11%/12%), he has a kill throw, and his grab range is good, so I honestly think people exaggerate when they say it's "bad" or "terrible." Him not having very potent throw follow-ups makes sense because Chomp is a good command grab, and with his excellent aerial mobility, he would be bonkers if he had a highly reliable combo throw.

I think not having reliable combo game is the only thing keeping him from being a top 4 contender, bar maybe his poor range on his normals.

I still argue he's beyond "upper middle", I'd put him at least top 14

 

[juddy96]

Does anyone know how good of a Sheik Eim is? Kamemushi beat him 2-0 using only Megaman with a really strong game one. Game two was last stock last hit. Also wondering when Kamemushi picked up Yoshi, as far as I knew his secondary was cloud. He used it to counterpick Shuton's Olimar and took game 2 with it, game three was another last stock high percentage situation. It seemed like yoshi's large hitboxes allowed him to deal collateral damage to Shuton's pickman when attacking as well as remove them easily, although I doubt that's the sole reason for the counterpick. Do any yoshi mains here have an opinion on the olimar MU?

Eim is a newer player that has been on the rise, finishing in the top 8 or top 16 recently on a few occasions. Kamemushi pretty much plays the entire cast, him and Daiki use many combinations in doubles (tho most known for double Mega Man)

 

[HeavyLobster]

Zard I think is right on the line in terms of bottom 10, probably between 7th and 12th worst. His range outside of the laggy Ftilt and Bair is poor compared to other heavies and he's not as strong either. He's very mobile on the ground and SHNair/Fair are also decent options to mix in. His frame data up close is better than that of other heavies. His biggest problem right now is that his ability to land is pretty limited due to his large size, poor airspeed, floaty physics, and high landing lag on all his aerials when not autocancelled. His buffs were handy but not enough to address his core issues to the point where he's a particularly good or useful competitive character, and he doesn't really have the same kind of organized community pushing his meta like some of the other low tiers(Ganon cult FTW!), so he's kind of stuck in no-man's land.

 

[Nekoo]

Naw man, a or will suffice

but ZSS being more balanced was his entire point. You where being sarcastic like he was complaining like he was in denial about it, or didn't acknowledge it

Yeah i see the point. Sorry i guess.

I want to talk about Ryu. High Level Ryu are incredible to watch but i have a problem about some of his design. He's a fantastic and well rounded character. But i don't know why he should have such good recovery option and kill option. Focus Attack Cancel , Tatsu, True Shoryuken. While having a Easy Kill Confirm with Up-tilt lock> true shoryuken that kill really early...

Some rather...Stupid hitbox, Extremely good frame-data And a fantastic Toolkit.

Like if we had to give a name to his design it would be a Combo Heavy and strong character who is about fundamental. But he have like too many recovery option for those type of character.Or i can't even see his weakness.

He's my nightmare Match-up. Even Sheik , Sonic , Diddy i can deal with ( Except Bayo. **** Bayo. Bayo is hard to fight. Did i said i hate bayo? Well now you know.)

Do you have any advice?
And another question to everyone here

What about you? Do you have any nightmare match-up?

Not bad match-up from your character. But bad match-up where you don't know what to do even with a ''better'' character? Like a mental block. It always happen to me against Ryu...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Much better damage output, his jab > grab is better, better traction, the best pivot grab in the universe, the ability to threaten a shield break, 2 decent positional kill throws while still having a kill confirm off of a grab that kills before Zard's up throw, Tough Guy, better aerials for edgeguarding, a command grab, and Fortress out of shield too. He is a consistently threatening character who makes you afraid of shielding, wary of approaching because of pivot grab and intangible tilts, and as a heavy, he can almost always kill you. He just works better as a character.

You mean she's finally a balanced character where the other character have a chance against her? You almost got me surprised!



First there his Weight. Bowser will survive longer. While his jab is slower his arm is intengible and will alway clash even when a stronger thing will hit him. A kill Confirm which is something big in this game. His side-b shenanigan. Jab>Grab. Traction, pivot grab yadda yadda....

Stop, you're ruining my ****fest

Better damage output but insane landing lag

Charizard jab 2 = Bowser jab 1
Threaten a shield break with an aerial move that takes so long to come out, you can react to it. It also has what, a billion frames of landing lag?
Charizard has bthrow, up throw, and fthrow, also has a better pummel. Bowsers kill confirm gets ruined by rage, something he builds up fast

Tough guy is great, cant argue with that either
Cant argue the pivot grab, that ****s broken
Command grab is also great
Already talked about fortress oos

His aerials are not really better for edgeguarding, the only aerials he has that are usable for edgeguarding are fair and bair. He cant even use his nair/dair. Fire breath <<< flamethrower for edgeguarding. Bowser also runs the risk of being gimped every time he goes offstage, meanwhile Charizard has 2 midair jumps, the best horizontal recovery in the game, and decent vertical recovery. Charizard edgeguarding >>>>>>>>> Bowser edgeguarding

Bowser weight 130
Charizard weight 115
Both will be living to extremely high %s, Charizard however is much harder to gimp

 

[zeldasmash]

top 8 for Icarus II
1) BlueLink (he used mainly regular Link tho)(used in top 16/8 sometimes)(used in GF once to win a game)
2) MarthForever
3) Lanz
4) Shunf (he was the one sending Elmoro's Bayonetta to the losers side with quite a solid performance and AMAZING DI)
5) Genarog (used only once against MarthForever and lost)
5) Ryusei (used in a game in top 8 but lost)( dunno if he used him) (as you can see he likes big swords)
7) Elmoro
7) Orso (I think he went solo Ganon tho, might have used Bowser offscreen)

Link winning a tournament......this brings a tear to my eye.

Really awesome Top 8 here, probably one of the better ones i have seen.

 

[Djent]

I agree with everything Trifroze said about ZSS, except I just wanted to mention that Choco finished 33rd. He did fine in pools but lost to a "random" Ryu and YOC's Corrin in bracket. It's also worth noting that another less-known ZSS player finished 9th, so things worked out kind of like how Marss picks up the slack when Nairo busters out.

 

[Nekoo]

Link winning a tournament......this brings a tear to my eye.

Really awesome Top 8 here, probably one of the better ones i have seen.

Yeah. Today with Icarus and UMEBURA we had a lot of diversity

 

[Kofu]

Bowser also runs the risk of being gimped every time he goes offstage, meanwhile Charizard has 2 midair jumps, the best horizontal recovery in the game, and decent vertical recovery.

You've got to be joking.

Charizard's recovery is decent at best. His midair jumps are small and the only advantage he gets out of having two is that he can mix up his position a little.

His recovery suffers from "Ike Syndrome" where, while it's very good either horizontally or vertically, it's easy to screw him over by knocking him just a little too far from the edge to recover vertically, especially without his midair jumps. You can also just jump in front of Flare Blitz to severely cut its distance. Bowser's also vulnerable to such gimps but he's a little less out of luck if knocked at a mild diagonal away from the stage.

They're similarly difficult/easy to gimp IMO.

EDIT: also, as an aside, Bowser's Forward and Back throws kill better than Zard's.

 

[Y2Kay]

You've got to be joking.

Charizard's recovery is decent at best. His midair jumps are small and the only advantage he gets out of having two is that he can mix up his position a little.

His recovery suffers from "Ike Syndrome" where, while it's very good either horizontally or vertically, it's easy to screw him over by knocking him just a little too far from the edge to recover vertically, especially without his midair jumps. You can also just jump in front of Flare Blitz to severely cut its distance. Bowser's also vulnerable to such gimps but he's a little less out of luck if knocked at a mild diagonal away from the stage.

They're similarly difficult/easy to gimp IMO.

EDIT: also, as an aside, Bowser's Forward and Back throws kill better than Zard's.

Do you really think throwing yourself into a Flare blitz is a good idea though?

 

[Kofu]

Do you really think throwing yourself into a Flare blitz is a good idea though?

If your percent is low enough that you know you won't die off the other side of the stage, sure. I'll take killing Zard at a low percent instead of allowing him to survive for 19%.

 

[Nekoo]

Do you really think throwing yourself into a Flare blitz is a good idea though?

Flare blitz isn't the hardest move to anticipate.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Charizard has those two jumps to make up for any height loss from getting cut at the pass with Flare Blitz to where he can Flare Blitz again with the opponent not being at the same spot to intercept due to being hit by the first Flare Blitz. He may take additional recoil damage, but he's still alive with weight to spare.

Also, using the first jump and then FB at the apex is an option. If he gets intercepted from that, he won't be going as low as he would have originally and so can make the Fly back.

 

[Y2Kay]

As long as he saves a jump, Zard should be OK

Running into a Flare Blitz sounds like an awful Idea anyway.

 

[Mister M]

q's about ryu

Ryu has weakness. His recover is not great, it's okay. Combining FADC, spinning bird kick and SRK will allow him to get back from anywhere above the stage and a good distance below but there is very little room for mix ups in the path he will take. So you'll see the same **** over and over.

Each component of his recovery has big enough chinks that you can dismantle his recovery. FADC is multi hits, prepare to strike his back to counter SRK, and the helicopter can be spiked or Just struck in its very vulnerable end lag.

It just takes awareness and a little practise.

In the neutral, every option Ryu uses has enough commitment to be taken advantage of. You have nothing to fear (except his walking. You back the hell up if he's walking up to you).

Bait your hardest and maintain patience and his player will be dismantled.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Charizard's recovery certainly isn't bad, it isn't fantastic either but putting it on the same level as Ike is silly. Not to mention both Flare Blitz and Fly will kill you (Though mostly Fly really since Flare Blitz isn't practical.) I know you don't factor in an Up B's kill power in when discussing a character's ability to recover, but it sure is a nice little bonus to have since so many Up B's in this game are worthless offensively speaking. Two jumps + Fly + Flare Blitz + Being so heavy to begin with is fine, recovery wise.

What I'm getting at is, there are things that are doing a lot to hold Charizard back, but recovery really isn't one of them.

 

[Nobie]

Flare Blitz as an escape option/situation reset (at the cost of 5 damage) is an interesting element of the move to me. You really don't want to challenge the move in the air unless you have something that can face it head on, and it flies far enough that it's fairly difficult to chase down.

 

[Nekoo]

Flare Blitz as an escape option/situation reset (at the cost of 5 damage) is an interesting element of the move to me. You really don't want to challenge the move in the air unless you have something that can face it head on, and it flies far enough that it's fairly difficult to chase down.

The problem isn't challenging the move . Everyone with half a brain won't try that. Except if they have a counter. Using flare blitz to recover put you in a BIG disaventage state since the end lag is big and the fact that you use it to recover mean that the other player is on the stage. Chasing you down won't be a problem since they will be at the end or near the end od the distance of the flare blitz. And trust me.the punish after this is big. You can't screw your recovery attempt with flare blitz.

I'll use it only as a last chance.

But I agree that it could be useful to reset. Or it's just great to tech-chase in general.

 

[Nobie]

The problem isn't challenging the move . Everyone with half a brain won't try that. Except if they have a counter. Using flare blitz to recover put you in a BIG disaventage state since the end lag is big and the fact that you use it to recover mean that the other player is on the stage. Chasing you down won't be a problem since they will be at the end or near the end od the distance of the flare blitz. And trust me.the punish after this is big. You can't screw your recovery attempt with flare blitz.

I'll use it only as a last chance.

But I agree that it could be useful to reset. Or it's just great to tech-chase in general.

I don't necessarily mean using Flare Blitz to recover from offstage, I mean using it to escape a bad situation by getting to the other side of the stage (which could happen in a recovery situation).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I can just say, throughout my couple years of playing aside from me ****ing up and thinking I had one more jump when I didn't...

I've only been edgeguarded as Zard a handful of times...

It's harder than you think. I'd only recommend projectiles or Ganon's boot. Most other things are canceled out.

a BIG disaventage state since the end lag is big

You can F tilt almost as soon as you land actually.

The secret is to do it above the ground. Your lag is cut by a significant amount.

Enough to where most opponents who try to punish you actually get punished themselves.

 

[Nekoo]

I can just say, throughout my couple years of playing aside from me ****ing up and thinking I had one more jump when I didn't...

I've only been edgeguarded as Zard a handful of times...

It's harder than you think. I'd only recommend projectiles or Ganon's boot. Most other things are canceled out.


You can F tilt almost as soon as you land actually.

The secret is to do it above the ground. Your lag is cut by a significant amount.

Enough to where most opponents who try to punish you actually get punished themselves.

So my theory from earlier seem corect. Zard is a heavy spacing character. Thanks for the information!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So my theory from earlier seem corect. Zard is a heavy spacing character. Thanks for the information!

I mean yeah... That much is obvious.

Most people don't seem to understand that, which is why he's not played very much. They try to fit him in a strange rush down or wall role.

I don't know why. He's supposed to be mobile and he's supposed to focus on spacing and baiting, stuff he's actually good at.

 

[Nobie]

I mean yeah... That much is obvious.

Most people don't seem to understand that, which is why he's not played very much. They try to fit him in a strange rush down or wall role.

I don't know why. He's supposed to be mobile and he's supposed to focus on spacing and baiting, stuff he's actually good at.

I have nothing to substantiate this, but I believe that Mewtwo players have strong potential to be good with Charizard and vice versa.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I have nothing to substantiate this, but I believe that Mewtwo players have strong potential to be good with Charizard and vice versa.

Well it works for me.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have nothing to substantiate this, but I believe that Mewtwo players have strong potential to be good with Charizard and vice versa.

If it means anything, I am pretty good with Zard.

I don't have a need to play him much, though. Greninja, Lucario, and Pit have much of my match ups covered.

 

[Eugene Wang]

He's supposed to be mobile

Wait, what? Can you explain this in further detail? Are you talking about Charizard's burst mobillity options here?

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait, what? Can you explain this in further detail?

Well he has a top 10 dash speed. Better than cloud's worse than sheik's

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wait, what? Can you explain this in further detail? Are you talking about Charizard's burst mobillity options here?

Charizard is meant to go from 0 to nothing frequently.

He's a character that is meant to find an opening and rush in. Charizard is a fast character and he's given the speed to play mental bait and punish games.

 

[Nekoo]

I'm so scared. Next week I'll participate to my first french major. It's called Neokan Party. A major where Wii u project M and Rival of Aether are played.

I'll participate to single and double.

It's the 30 april and 1st may

https://smash.gg/tournament/neokan-party-i

Of course there going to be a stream.

At first I just wanted to have fun. But now I want to prove that Roy is a good character and that people underestimate him...

So write it in your calendar. Even if I get kicked quickly at least you will see the french level and that we aren't bad at all.

 

[ZSaberLink]

top 8 for Icarus II
1) BlueLink (he used mainly regular Link tho)(used in top 16/8 sometimes)(used in GF once to win a game)
2) MarthForever
3) Lanz
4) Shunf (he was the one sending Elmoro's Bayonetta to the losers side with quite a solid performance and AMAZING DI)
5) Genarog (used only once against MarthForever and lost)
5) Ryusei (used in a game in top 8 but lost)( dunno if he used him) (as you can see he likes big swords)
7) Elmoro
7) Orso (I think he went solo Ganon tho, might have used Bowser offscreen)

I just wanted to say that by watching BlueLink play I almost started to believe that RadicalLarry might not be all that crazy while talking about Link (almost though)
I think that some of the matches played were quite interesting to say the least, in particular the ones played by BlueLink, MarthForever and Orso, so I kind of recomed to give 'em a look if you have some spare time (I might link them in this very thread when they'll be finally uploaded on youtube, they really give some perspective on some matchups)

extra: tied at 9th: Chimera, Danu, Dinamirer, Enygma (used like half the cast so I don't feel like listing anyone)

I'm (probably) done with my talking about this tournament, I hope I didn't annoy anyone

Interesting placings there. Btw, any thoughts on regular Link? I feel like he's generally dismissed as a worse version of Toon Link rather than talking about him as his own character which is quite different. Like imo the last tier list had characters with far less results (Roy, Shulk, Falco) over Link just because he's Link and has generally been bad in previous games.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The problem isn't challenging the move . Everyone with half a brain won't try that. Except if they have a counter. Using flare blitz to recover put you in a BIG disaventage state since the end lag is big and the fact that you use it to recover mean that the other player is on the stage. Chasing you down won't be a problem since they will be at the end or near the end od the distance of the flare blitz. And trust me.the punish after this is big. You can't screw your recovery attempt with flare blitz.

I'll use it only as a last chance.

But I agree that it could be useful to reset. Or it's just great to tech-chase in general.

The end lag is bad but since the move will usually cover the entire distance from where you are to the edge of the stage, you can just ledge snap it (something a lot of people don't know you can do with the move apparently)s.

Bowser's recovery on the other hand isn't very threatening at all, like yeah its more threatening than Villagers but its not a massive hitbox that just wrecks **** at 90%. The amount of times I have literally just ran offstage and naird him to death with Cloud is kind of ridiculous

I'm so scared. Next week I'll participate to my first french major. It's called Neokan Party. A major where Wii u project M and Rival of Aether are played.

I'll participate to single and double.

It's the 30 april and 1st may

https://smash.gg/tournament/neokan-party-i

Of course there going to be a stream.

At first I just wanted to have fun. But now I want to prove that Roy is a good character and that people underestimate him...

So write it in your calendar. Even if I get kicked quickly at least you will see the french level and that we aren't bad at all.

Just make you don't go on autopilot, that's what screwed me over at my first actual tournament

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Flare Blitz's lag on the ground is atrocious.

That's why you do it above the ground. You get a fraction of the lag.

 

[arbustopachon]

Wait, what? Can you explain this in further detail? Are you talking about Charizard's burst mobillity options here?

Zard is pretty mobile on the ground. Top 10 dash speed + above average walk speed + short skid animation + average initial dash length.